Combat, what does combat have to do with being a good leader & NCO, or are you trying to say only "combat" NCO's are "real" NCO's and unless youve been in "combat" you ain't shit and have no idea what "leadership" is all about.

What do you want me to tell em?

How to lead or what the UCMJ says cuz he sure ain't listening to me or the UCMJ if he is having troops push for "punishment" and then when the troop refuses to submit to this "punishment" get's a 15 thrown at him.

A leader who is respected and trusted by his troops would never have had the problems leatherpuke has/is having now would he.

Quoted: Have you led in combat? Shrike9 seems know how the NCO is fucked up but has made little in the way of offering a means to resolve the conflict besides saying it's leaderships fault. If they guy is bringing his guys back from downrange he might be doing something right. If the Command says you can drop soldiers for minor infractions. Then your good if the soldiers refuses it's his ass. Were you an NCO or a babysitter I do not have the time to coddle JR troops my job is to lead them into combat mentor skills and leadership and to insure that my guys and equipment are ready to go. Pushups aren't punishment it's an on the spot oppurtunity for him to get his head out of his ass and stop dicking around. If the soldier want to act like a child he can get treated like a child. If the summarized doesn't fix it begin paper work for seperation. Leatherpuke drive on.

The capacity to lead troops in combat is a testament to the NCO's ability. Does it mean that they're the only ones qualified to lead no it doesn't mean that at all. If they were succesful it should mean they know what is required of them and their men to accomplish the mission and train subordinates.

  I don't care how good of a leader you are if have a fucked up soldier who doesn't want to do his job or conduct him or herself accordingly. There is a chance that no one is going to get through to them. The Army has fuck ups we always have thats why there is UCMJ thats why there is corrective training thats why NCO's are required to fix shit like this at the lowest possible level. frankly commanders don't have time to deal with petty ass shit.

Quoted: As an "NCO-to-be", I know that applying discipline to soldiers is part of being a good leader; if they do their jobs correctly and efficiently, you should commend them for it, not necesarily giving AAMs and ARCOMs left and right, but a pat on the back and a "good job" is often just as effective; however, if they don't perform up to standard and become sloppy (late for formation, lousy shaving and so forth), they should be held accountable. This soldier seems to have an attitude problem, so an Article 15 is a good start; you have to remind that soldier that you are an NCO and that you are responsible for keeping not oly discipline within your team (or squad), but you are also responsible for his well-being. My recommendation would be an Article 15 for disrespecting a non-commissioned officer, forfeit his pay for 15 days, 15 days restricted to barracks and 15 days extra duty (either CQ or picking up trash in the Bn, Area). I know its harsh, but you have nip it in the ass right there before it escalates into something more serious. Just some advice from an old soldier.

I would tend to stay away from the 15 days CQ, if for no other reason then his marriage is already going downhill and 15 nights away may screw it up even worse.

UCMJ action should punish, but should not do so in a way that may reach farther down the road.

Quoted: A leader who is respected and trusted by his troops would never have had the problems leatherpuke has/is having now would he.

Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree.  There will always be problem soldiers.  Especially now, with coddling in basic, lowered recruiting standards in terms of acceptable criminal backgrounds and history of ADD, a reluctance of some commands to chapter out soldiers because of strength/numbers, etc.  Add in the stress of a divorce and possible PTSD.  Even a good leader can end up with a Joe that acts like a punk.  The challenge is to motivate that soldier to drop the X-box controller and attitude, and choose to act professionally.

As I see it, there are two main ways to motivate:
1.  Fear - Fear of the chain of command will only go so far, especially with a combat vet who just doesn't care.  "What are you going to do, send me back to Iraq?  I'm already scheduled for next rotation.  Extra duty? Fine.  It ain't as bad as burning out the latrines."    
2.  Positive reinforcement -  I'm not talking about bribing Joe.  I'm talking about reminding him about having pride in the uniform, the duty to his fellow soldiers, and the fulfillment  that comes with completing a mission in a professional manner.

If the kid can't get his head back in the game, then it's time to show him the options, i.e. "We can do this the easy way, or the hard way, but we WILL do it."  

Quoted: Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree.  There will always be problem soldiers. Especially now, with coddling in basic, lowered recruiting standards in terms of acceptable criminal backgrounds and history of ADD, a reluctance of some commands to chapter out soldiers because of strength/numbers, etc.  Add in the stress of a divorce and possible PTSD.  Even a good leader can end up with a Joe that acts like a punk.  The challenge is to motivate that soldier to drop the X-box controller and attitude, and choose to act professionally. "

This kinder and gentler military crap is starting to proliferate itself through the ranks.  When your drill segeant is more your friend and offering advise instead of orders, that is the first impression that you have of NCOs.  I think that one would certainly treat NCOs differently seeing the aforementioned than if your first impression was a fire breathing brown round screaming at you as soon as you step off the bus.

Just my .02 worth.
BJohnson

What are you a fucking career counselor. No! You are a fucking combat soldier, there's no room for fuckups like this. Imagine if you had incoming would you want to have to micro manage his disrespectful ass. Seems like the Army needs to be one soldier lighter.


SSG 1986 - 1997

Quoted: This kid is a SPC with about 3 years in the Army. He's been down range and earned the combat action badge. I've been his squad leader since January and I've had nothing but problems with him. Never anything major, just little shit like not standing at parade rest when he talks to an NCO, not ironing his BDU's, not cleaning his weapon in the field, and similar stuff.

What the fuck kind of unit makes a combat patched spec 4 with several years in the army stand at parade rest when speaking to an NCO?  Where in the 670-1 does it state that BDUs must be pressed?  I'll leave the weapon cleaning alone, that is subjective, but if he's exchanged gunfire with the enemy, I'm pretty sure he knows what is necessary to keep his weapon operational.

Quoted: Let me get this straight. It's customary in the Army to make a soldier do pushups as corrective discipline? WTF? Is the Army really that F'd up? I did 4 years in the USMC and 4 years in the Guard. Other than bootcamp, if anyone had told me to "push", I would have told him to piss up a rope.

Exactly.  I had 3 years in when I got out, and if some E5 had told me to push for some stupid horseplay bullshit, they'd be lucky if harsh words was all they got.

This entire thing reeks of an NCO that has failed over a long period of time to lead his soldiers.

All an article 15 is going to do is divide your squad further, and cause several people to lose respect for you.  Handle your  business like a man and save the article 15s for when they are necessary.

Tim,

Obviously you have no clue of what discipline means. It is customary that junior grade enlisted soldiers stand at either parade rest or attention when speaking to NCO's or Officers. It was instilled in Basic Training that the basic respect is given to those placed in leadership positions.

In every unit I was in I never witnessed disrespect the likes of what the TO posted. I spent 11 years in, the first 8 as an 11B, the last 3 as a 16T. I went from hardcore units to lax units and always had soldiers give me the respect of standing at parade rest when speaking to me. Maybe it was because of the way I carried myself, or maybe it was because I respected them in return.

Quoted: Tim, Obviously you have no clue of what discipline means. It is customary that junior grade enlisted soldiers stand at either parade rest or attention when speaking to NCO's or Officers. It was instilled in Basic Training that the basic respect is given to those placed in leadership positions.

Right.

I would like for you to find where in any drill manual that it authorizes speaking at the position of parade rest.

You obviously know nothing about drill.  Speaking is authorized at two positions of the halt:

1. Rest
2. Attention, and then only when addressed.

Anyone who tells you otherwise is a fucking fool.  There is certainly a bullshit tradition in the Army that I never did figure out where soldiers DO this, but that doesn't make it right, or authorized.

Speaking to another man with your hands behind your back is just about the most undisciplined thing I witnessed in my military career, short of pure disrespect.

Basic respect has absolutely nothing to do with violating basic rules of D&C and acting like a fool.  Respect is referring to NCOs as "Corporal" "Sergeant" "First Sergeant" or "Sergeant Major".  Respect is giving them your undivided attention when asked a question and answering them clearly and in a manner that satisfies the question.

I have never witnessed the crap he's talking about either, but that doesn't mean I'd run screaming to my battery commander that an article 15 needed to occur, either.   Problems that occur on a squad level need to be taken care of at that level.  It would be unprofessional and probably detrimental to unit integrity to violate this to satisfy some type of personal power trip or percieved need for disciplnary action because his feeling were hurt.

I noted you didn't comment on the pressing of BDUs comment either, nor the cleaning of weapons.  I'd love to see any junior NCO try to article 15 someone for either of these two, "Offenses."

Pressing of the uniform occurred only when we were participating in parades, ceremonies, etc.....

Cleaning of the weapon is an individual responsibility that a squad leader either orders their soldiers to conduct or is a squad level function after the range or FTX.

I don't know what Army you were in but again standing at parade rest was taught in Basic Training. I never observed a time when a soldier failed to either stand at parade rest or a modified parade rest/rest.stance.

Quoted: I don't know what Army you were in but again standing at parade rest was taught in Basic Training. I never observed a time when a soldier failed to either stand at parade rest or a modified parade rest/rest.stance.

Lots of shit was taught in basic & never caried over to units.

Ever fold your cloths exactly like taught in basic, how about how you hung your uniforms or ate in the chow hall.

If you can't tell the difference between basic and "real" life then you might just have other issues.

Like I said I don't know what kind of units you guys were in. Yes, after Basic & AIT I did have to fold my clothes a certain way, had barracks inspections almost daily, CI's and the like. My shoes had to be dress right dress under my bunk. But then again I was in RDF units and that was what was expected of each soldier.

Now I know what the Army meant by "dirtbags". Low expectations yield low results.

Quoted: Like I said I don't know what kind of units you guys were in. Yes, after Basic & AIT I did have to fold my clothes a certain way, had barracks inspections almost daily, CI's and the like. My shoes had to be dress right dress under my bunk. But then again I was in RDF units and that was what was expected of each soldier.

I would also like you to explain what it means that your shoes be, "Dress right dress under my bunk."  Last I checked, that was a drill command, has nothing to do with how you organize your room.

I don't know what kind of units you were in either, but we spent our time in the field preparing for war, not acting like a bunch of bootcamp/hollywood soldiers arranging footlockers and folding clothes.

We had weapons, vehicles, and equipment to take care of...we didn't have time for bullshit like that.

Quoted: Quoted: leatherpuke, if you were a NCO instead of a Sgt you would know that the UCMJ is NOT a regulation and that a NCO does NOT have the authority to dish out punishment but as a NCO can administer punishment delt out by the commanding Officer. Furthermore PT is NOT a form of NJP under the UCMJ unless you think it falls under "extra duties, including fatigue or other duties" but there again it's up to the commander to decide and not you. Might be a good idea for you to read a few parts of the UCMJ and hopefully you can understand that as a NCO you CAN NOT legally give a troop an order to push as punishment. If you were a NCO you would also know that it's possible to give the troop the option to push or recieve punnishment from the CO for his actions or lack of. If the NCO was to do it correctly is is not punishment but remedial training Any NCO who punishes his or her troops without the commander handing out the punishment is in serious violation of the UCMJ & any NCO who prders a troop to push for punishment is in direct violation of the UCMJ. When a NCO recommends NJP against one of his or her troops that NCO has failed the troop as a NCO as a good NCO would never let it get that far. Oh and no matter what you say about knowing your troops if you were a NCO you would have known something was wrong and been able to find out what it was before his problems resulted in UCMJ action. But wht do I know, I was only a NCO for 16 years. Yep, and I'm sure that you ALWAYS knew EVERYTHING that was going on with your troops, right? Cuz, you were pulling surveilence on their houses at night and could hear them arguing with their spouses.  And I bet that when YOU were in, Soldiers ran 15 miles every morning in the snow.....barefoot.......uphill both ways. And they ate barbed wire for lunch and pissed bullets.  God, it must be great to be perfect.   I have 14 Soldiers that I am responsible for and this is the ONLY one that I'm having issues with. So in my book, I'm doing pretty good. I came on here to ask some " seasoned" vets what I might have done wrong and how I should react. Instead, I get dis-gruntled retirees who only remember the good things they did, and want to criticize me. Thanks, you're a hell of a leader.

All right LeatherPuke.  You don't want retirees?  I'm an active duty Navy NCO -- Chief Petty Officer, equivalent to an Army SFC.

Your first screw-up was fostering an environment in which one of your NCO's thinks it's okay to punish his troops.  Punishment(as Shrike correctly points out), by the UCMJ, is a right reserved to the commander at NJP (we call it CO's Mast in the Navy, but I believe it's the same as your article 15 proceeding).  Your NCO would have been entirely within his rights to assign what we call Extra Military Instruction, or EMI -- it's extra work to correct a military deficiency (in the Navy, this requires a sign-off from the Chief, not sure about the Army).  There's a huge difference between the two, and the fact you don't understand it makes me really wonder about your training.  

You complain about having 14 soldiers to look after?? I had a whole division -- 40+, including 3 E-6's, to run as an E-5.  I knew every one of them -- I knew if they were having family problems, I knew if they were screw-ups who needed extra attention, I knew if they were just off their game on any particular day.  This was during work-ups for a 6-month deployment to the gulf, so believe me, I had my hands full.

I went to CO's mast once, as a very junior E-5.  It ended with me being reassigned outside my division for several weeks to work in Deck Division (they're the division that's pretty much responsible for all the hard labour that takes place on a ship).  I learned a great deal from the experience -- but the one thing that sticks with me more than anything else was the conversation I had with the old crusty Senior Chief I worked for (who's now a Command Master Chief -- the best leader I've ever known).  He told me that when you recommend an Article 15, it's equivalent to going up to your CO and telling him you've failed as a leader and can't deal with the problems you have with your sailors.  I think by the Army way of reckoning, I've been an NCO for almost 10 years now -- and I've never written a report chit.  And believe me, I've had some problem children work for me.  

Your goal as an NCO needs to be to take care of your troops so you can get your mission accomplished.  However you have to do it (legally, of course), you've got to do it.  You need to know them, you need to understand what their problems are so you can counter them or deal with them.  Whatever YOU did to allow an atmosphere where your troops goof off, screw around, and disobey orders (your junior guy didn't know he was being given an illegal order, so his refusal to follow it was simply insubordination), writing an Article 15 on this soldier is only going to compound the problem.  He needs to be punished, but an Art. 15 ain't the way to go about it.  

Your soldiers need to trust that you can lead them first of all -- and writing an Art. 15 on somebody isn't the way to go about that.  You need to mold your troops into a cohesive unit, and from what you've said here you're simply not putting any real effort into it.  It's hard to get to know your troops, to build the rapport with them that will allow them to bring you (or your junior NCOs) their personal problems (because whether you like it or not, they do affect their work).  It sounds to me like you have 14 people working for you that you really don't know -- and if they don't know you, the only respect you get from them is the military mandated respect that your collar devices command.  You can hate someone and still do what they say, but I'd rather lead people that don't hate my guts when my back is turned.

Just some friendly advice from a Chief...

Owned by the Navy guy.

Much respect to ya, Chief.  You sound a lot like my old Platoon Sergeant (E7, SFC, just like you)

He said once....

"Listen, Private.  This isn't Sergeant XXXXXXX talking right now.  This is Bill"

What followed straightened my ass right out.  No article 15s, no arguing, no disrespect.  Just clear instructions on his expectations of me, and what he expected me to do to motivate my fellow soldiers.  That was it.

Well said Chief.

A complete soldier takes care of the rear and the front! Sorry you were in a fucked up unit that enforced only half of the rules but my unit made me a better overall soldier.

We'd FTX for 3 months at a time and when we weren't in the field we were subjected to pretty stringent standards in the rear.

RDF units have much higher standards of readiness than regular 2nd echelon units, every bit of gear has to be serviceable and ready not only for deployment but inspection, it ensures problems with equipment don't surface in the initial stages of deployment. I served in a substandard unit after I left the Infantry and trust me I did my best to turn it around. I bet you were a leader in that substandard shithole, weren't you?

BTW: I used dress right dress only as a description, you are one asinine individual, you obviously haven't got a clue what a real soldier is about.

Quoted: BTW: I used dress right dress only as a description, you are one asinine individual, you obviously haven't got a clue what a real soldier is about.

No, you just used a common army term that demonstrated ignorance of its actual meaning.

I must be thinking every day that I wasn't a, "Real" soldier when I walk with my limp every day.  Good thing I don't need someone like you to validate my service, as my pain and memories are plenty.

I noted also no comment about the speaking at positions of the halt thing, either.  I guess as long as you're right, the only thing you can be called is asinine.

What's the limp for, having a jump boot stuck up you ass?

Quoted: What's the limp for, having a jump boot stuck up you ass?

A permenant knee injury, asswipe.

Quoted: Quoted: What's the limp for, having a jump boot stuck up you ass? A permenant knee injury, asswipe.

Well, if you spend all of your time in service on your knee's I guess you can call that a knee injury. I bet your commander appreciated the "personal" attention you gave him.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: What's the limp for, having a jump boot stuck up you ass? A permenant knee injury, asswipe. Well, if you spend all of your time in service on your knee's I guess you can call that a knee injury. I bet your commander appreciated the "personal" attention you gave him.

He sure did.  Took it "personal" when I hurt myself for life out in the field under his command.

Quoted: Quoted: Like I said I don't know what kind of units you guys were in. Yes, after Basic & AIT I did have to fold my clothes a certain way, had barracks inspections almost daily, CI's and the like. My shoes had to be dress right dress under my bunk. But then again I was in RDF units and that was what was expected of each soldier. I would also like you to explain what it means that your shoes be, "Dress right dress under my bunk."  Last I checked, that was a drill command, has nothing to do with how you organize your room.

What the FUCK Army were you in where Soldiers didn't stand at a modified Parade Rest to formally address and NCO, and where you don't know that Dress Right Dress is slang (yes, based on the drill command) for lining stuff up neatly?  I think you are feigning ignorance just to be contrarian.

I don't know what kind of units you were in either, but we spent our time in the field preparing for war, not acting like a bunch of bootcamp/hollywood soldiers arranging footlockers and folding clothes. We had weapons, vehicles, and equipment to take care of...we didn't have time for bullshit like that.

Yeah, it takes so long to sweep out a room, make a bed, take out trash, and line up shoes .

It's called DISCIPLINE.  It's about having pride in your appearance and the appearance of your own area.  I'll agree that specified wall-locker and field gear (TA-50) displays are a bit much (and too-often lead to a fake display, with the real stuff hid elsewhere), but your alternative is unsat, and your arguments are unsound.

Quoted: What the FUCK Army were you in where Soldiers didn't stand at a modified Parade Rest to formally address and NCO, and where you don't know that Dress Right Dress is slang (yes, based on the drill command) for lining stuff up neatly?  I think you are feigning ignorance just to be contrarian.

If that was proper military procedure, surely you could locate for me what manual I could use to find that tradition, rule, or regulation.

If not, it's just some bullshit that someone made up and people kept doing it.  I'm not saying that I never saw someone talking to an NCO with their hands behind their back.  What I'm saying is that it's wrong, no matter what you've seen or heard.

It's also exclusive to the Army.  You will never see a Marine speaking from the position of parade rest.  It is prohibited at that position of the halt.  If addressed while at that position in formation, they will come to the position of attention.

Quoted: Quoted: What the FUCK Army were you in where Soldiers didn't stand at a modified Parade Rest to formally address and NCO, and where you don't know that Dress Right Dress is slang (yes, based on the drill command) for lining stuff up neatly?  I think you are feigning ignorance just to be contrarian. If that was proper military procedure, surely you could locate for me what manual I could use to find that tradition, rule, or regulation. If not, it's just some bullshit that someone made up and people kept doing it.  I'm not saying that I never saw someone talking to an NCO with their hands behind their back.  What I'm saying is that it's wrong, no matter what you've seen or heard. It's also exclusive to the Army.  You will never see a Marine speaking from the position of parade rest.  It is prohibited at that position of the halt.  If addressed while at that position in formation, they will come to the position of attention.

So basically if it's not in a manual it doesn't exist. Hmmmm

I had this very well written paragraph explaining traditions, customs, etc... But you're not going to register any of it in that thick assed skull of yours. You're the type of person that is a know it all so nothing I have to say is going to make a difference. I'm done here, you're a waste of my breath and bandwidth.

Quoted: So basically if it's not in a manual it doesn't exist. Hmmmm

Yes.  Every action in the military is governed by a manual.  Standing at the position of attention, for example, when speaking to an officer, is in there.  Feel free to look it up.

Speaking from the position of Parade Rest is clearly prohibited by that same manual, and therefore, suggesting that it's, "Correct" to speak to another man with your hands behind your back is not only wrong, it's a clear violation of the procedures that the military has for standing in such a position.

How successful do you think you would be as an NCO if you tried to article 15 someone for not standing at parade rest when speaking to you?

Like I said, respect is payed to NCOs by referring to them property by their titles, "Corporal" "Sergeant" "First Sergeant" or "Sergeant Major."  THAT is in SEVERAL manuals.  Standing at parade rest is not, and never will be, because it is WRONG.

I hope one day a sharp-eyed CSM of the Army will note this and end this bullshit forever.  It looks very unprofessional to have your hands behind your back when speaking to another man.  Nowhere else in military service is this bullshit perpetuated other than the Army, either.  Well, not anywhre I've observed where sailors, marines, or airman are around.

Quoted: Quoted: So basically if it's not in a manual it doesn't exist. Hmmmm Yes.  Every action in the military is governed by a manual.  Standing at the position of attention, for example, when speaking to an officer, is in there.  Feel free to look it up. Speaking from the position of Parade Rest is clearly prohibited by that same manual, and therefore, suggesting that it's, "Correct" to speak to another man with your hands behind your back is not only wrong, it's a clear violation of the procedures that the military has for standing in such a position. How successful do you think you would be as an NCO if you tried to article 15 someone for not standing at parade rest when speaking to you? Like I said, respect is payed to NCOs by referring to them property by their titles, "Corporal" "Sergeant" "First Sergeant" or "Sergeant Major."  THAT is in SEVERAL manuals.  Standing at parade rest is not, and never will be, because it is WRONG. I hope one day a sharp-eyed CSM of the Army will note this and end this bullshit forever.  It looks very unprofessional to have your hands behind your back when speaking to another man.  Nowhere else in military service is this bullshit perpetuated other than the Army, either.  Well, not anywhre I've observed where sailors, marines, or airman are around.

If someone were to "note" this - and see some sort of conflict - the proper response would be to modify the offending manual to reflect reality, not change reality.

Quoted: If someone were to "note" this - and see some sort of conflict - the proper response would be to modify the offending manual to reflect reality, not change reality.

So you truely believe that it's the right thing to do, to speak to another man with your hands behind your back?

You think that looks professional, and that tradition should continue?

82ndAirborne,

I can handle my own.  I suggest that you keep my business out of this.  I'm going to avoid Cody like the plague, since he appearently has a bone to pick with me personally.

Quoted: Tim84K10, as long as you don't ignore the warnings given to you by the site's moderators, you will have no problems.  Everyone is encouraged to enjoy the forums as long as they follow the very simple conduct guidelines.

I don't believe myself pointing out what is and isn't proper military procedure is a violation of the CoC, if it is at any time, please let me know.

Quoted: I certainly will.  Thank you for your cooperation.

Not a problem, troop.

Sumerized ART15, and lots of extra duty.  I agree that he is just going threw a hard time.  Did he have any prior neg councilns?

Quoted: Quoted: Doing pushups as punishment is against the UCMJ and if this troop wanted to push the issue could bring charges up against the NCO for punishing him when it's not the NCO's job to punish troops. Course it also shows a lack of leadership on the NCO's part, not to mention faling as a NCO in knowing his troops and what's going on in there lives like a good NCO should. But then again you have NCo's and you have Sgt's. Show me the REG! PT is a perfectly legal and justifiable form of NJP.  So unless you can show me the regulation that says otherwise, have a big cup of STFU. Not the NCO's job to punish troops? What Army were YOU in? The salvation Army? Wow......just.....wow.  TO everyone else, thanks for the input. It's good to hear opposing viewpoints once in a while, it makes you think, ya know. I've decided to try and stick up for this guy and convince the CO to let him keep his rank. But I am going to push for extra duty and restriction. And for the record, I know my damn troops. This kid purposely kept this information from me because in his words " I don't like to tell people my problems."

It's been forever that only the CO or Officer with Court Martial authority can "PUNISH" Nobody else can initiate "PUNISHMENT".  In the Navy you might get "EMI" or Extra Military Instruction but punishment is a big no-no.  Back in the good old days of wooden ships and iron men, wll how about 1200 pound plants? I was a First Lt. (JOB TITLE) on a cruiser and had 1 E-7, and E-6, no E-5s, 4 E-4's and 63 non-rates.  My best E-5 was an ex-Army E-5 but never quite got up to the point where he was elegible for promotion.  (He didn't want to be and E-4 and the equivalent of a squad leader) and he hit the sauce too often but we made him a work group leader anyway.  And our CO was an O-6 so if he got to know a guy too well on Friday mornings he could really lower the boom if needed.

But the guy backed you into a corner and didn't give you a lot of choice did he?  That's what I found for many years, for the most part guys didn't inadvertantly get in trouble, they made concious decisons to shoot their mouths off, defy NCO's, show up late.

If he doesn't get some kind of a public lesson learning, others will think they can stretch things.  You also need to back your NCO's.

Then again back in those days they brought in the BDUs and made a big point about them being strictly a work/field uniform and weren't ever intended to be ironed, pressed or starched.

As far as the regs are concerned in Art 15 of the UCMJ

(a) Under such regulations as the President may prescribe, and under such additional regulations as may be prescribed by the Secretary concerned, limitations may be placed on the powers granted by this article with respect to the kind and amount of punishment authorized, the categories of commanding officers and warrant officers exercising command authorized to exercise those powers,
has been defined to mean only thoseCommanding Officers and Warrant Officers exercising command are authorized to assign punishment.  JOs and NCOs can assign "Extra Military Instruction"  but in general it has to be related to the subordinates failing to meet the desired standards.

Quoted: Using pushups, flutter kicks etc is a very common means to reach a desired end. I know its a foriegn concept to the Navy/USMC crowd, but it works.

I haven't read the whole thread yet, but I'll jump in here to start off with. The Army is starting to seriously frown on using physical punishment as a form of corrective "training" because it is just that - punishment. Having someone do push-ups is not correcting training because it doesn't correspond to the infraction. An example of real corrective training is to have a Soldier report 30 minutes prior to every formation because he can't get there 15 minutes prior like he's been told to by his NCO. Or having him write and present an essay on the importance of respecting his NCOs. Corrective training has to relate to the offense and cannot just be a form of physical punishment.

Believe me, I "grew up" in a tank platoon, and later a Scout platoon, and it was common for people to drop Soldiers, make them do flutter kicks, or whatever - I've done it myself too. But the chain of command, from the top, and primarily through the CSM channel, has made it clear that physical punishment is no longer an approved method. The main reason for this is that the Commander is the only person authorized to punish Soldiers under his command. Call it the new Army or whatever you want - I know that Soldiers learn from doing push-ups, because it's a hard lesson, but that's the way the Army sees it these days. Talk to a Drill Sergeant about how things have changed in Basic - they have to ask permission to touch a Soldier even to demonstrate how to hold a weapon.

Push-ups and other similar stuff build esprit-de-corps - I'll be the first to admit that. I remember lots of times where I dropped right along with other members of my platoon, and sometimes the whole platoon dropped, to show their support for a guy that had made a dumb mistake, or was pushing just cause the NCOs were joking around with him. But I'm telling you this because some Commander - whether Company or Field Grade - may look at the fact that the Soldier was already "punished" for his infraction by his NCO / PL / whoever, and take that into account when deciding what punishment he will give the Soldier. I once had to drop a counseling form out of an Article 15 packet because my Colonel read in it that the NCO had dropped the Soldier for talking back, and he didn't like seeing that in the statement.

As a current Troop commander who has had to give about 20 Article 15s (6 of them were wrapped up in one drinking incident in Iraq), here's a few other things to think about when requesting an Article 15:

- As has already been said, the Commander is the one who decides what form the Article 15 will take. He may even look at the counseling packet and say that there's not enough there for a Company Grade Article 15. Or he might even say that he wants to push it up to a Field Grade. You never know - just remember that you (or the PSG) make a recommendation to the Commander, and he'll decide how to handle it (with a lot of advice from the 1SG).

- Just because you give someone a CG Art. 15 doesn't mean you have to ask the Commander to max out his punishment. If a Soldier has financial problems, or just split up with his wife, or whatever, those things are considered as mitigating circumstances, but they shouldn't affect whether or not you give him an Article 15 (yes, of course you can decide at your level that it was just a misunderstanding in the heat of the moment because the Soldier has a lot on his mind). If you find out later that there were other factors involved in the incident, bring that up when the Commander asks you for your recommendation on punishment (which he should do after reading the charges and excusing the Soldier so you can discuss the issue during the proceedings). You can tell him "Sir, this guy really screwed up, but he's got a lot on his mind, so I think we should just give him 5 days of extra duty and not take any pay or rank." I always take those recommendations into account.

- Most importantly, the best advice my 1SG gives all my NCOs is to "put it on paper." If you verbally counsel a Soldier 100 times for talking back to an NCO but never write it down, it's not going to hold much water when you go in front of the Commander to give him an Article 15. I just did two last week where the chain of command told me the whole history of how the two guys (E-5s) were skipping out of work during the day without telling anyone where they were going or asking permission, but there was only one counseling statement in each one. Those packets went up to the Colonel for appeal, so I had to explain to him all the stuff the chain of command had told me, because they didn't put it on paper. As my 1SG says, what all this leads to is building paper trail so that when you finally decide a Soldier isn't worth the Army's time, you have the paperwork you need to chapter him. Like the guy I gave 2 Company Grades and a Summarized to in Iraq, for lateness, disrespect, etc, and am now recommending for a Field Grade. The Pattern of Misconduct chapter will start after that, because he's wasted too much of my NCOs' time to keep him in the Army.

- Most importantly, UCMJ is a continuous learning process, so keep asking questions. I have to ask new ones every time I see an Article 15 packet.

Dave

(edited for typos)

Quoted: Quoted: Using pushups, flutter kicks etc is a very common means to reach a desired end. I know its a foriegn concept to the Navy/USMC crowd, but it works. I haven't read the whole thread yet, but I'll jump in here to start off with.  The Army is starting to seriously frown on using physical punishment as a form of corrective "training" because it is just that - punishment.  Having someone do push-ups is not correcting training because it doesn't correspond to the infraction.  An example of real corrective training is to have a Soldier report 30 minutes prior to every formation because he can't get there 15 minutes prior like he's been told to by his NCO.  Or having him write and present an essay on the importance of respecting his NCOs.  Corrective training has to relate to the offense and cannot just be a form of physical punishment. Believe me, I "grew up" in a tank platoon, and later a Scout platoon, and it was common for people to drop Soldiers, make them do flutter kicks, or whatever - I've done it myself to.  But the chain of command, from the top, and primarily through the CSM channel, has made it clear that physical punishment is no longer an approved method.  The main reason for this is that the Commander is the only person authorized to punish Soldiers under his command.  Call it the new Army or whatever you want - I know that Soldiers learn from doing push-ups, because it's a hard lesson, but that's the way the Army sees in these days.  Talk to a Drill Sergeant about how things have changed in Basic - they have to ask permission to touch a Soldier even to demonstrate how to hold a weapon. Push-ups and other similar stuff build esprit-de-corps - I'll be the first to admit that.  I remember lots of times where I dropped right along with other members of my platoon, and sometimes the whole platoon dropped, to show their support for a guy that had made a dumb mistake, or was pushing just cause the NCOs were joking around with him.  But I'm telling you this because some Commander - whether Company or Field Grade - may look at the fact that the Soldier was already "punished" for his infraction by his NCO / PL / whoever, and take that into account when deciding what punishment he will give the Soldier.  I once had to drop a counseling form out of an Article 15 packet because my Colonel read in it that the NCO had dropped the Soldier for talking back, and he didn't like seeing that in the statement. As a current Troop commander who has had to give about 20 Article 15s (6 of them were wrapped up in one drinking incident in Iraq), here's a few other things to think about when requesting an Article 15: - As has already been said, the Commander is the one who decides what form the Article 15 will take.  He may even look at the counseling packet and say that there's not enough there for a Company Grade Article 15.  Or he might even say that he wants to push it up to a Field Grade.  You never know - just remember that you (or the PSG) make a recommendation to the Commander, and he'll decide how to handle it (with a lot of advice from the 1SG. - Just because you give someone a CG Art. 15 doesn't mean you have to ask the Commander to max out his punishment.  If a Soldier has financial problems, or just split up with his wife, or whatever, those things are considering as mitigating circumstances, but they shouldn't affect whether or not you give him an Article 15 (yes, of course you can decide at your level that it was just a misunderstanding in the heat of the moment because the Soldier has a lot on his mind).  If you find out later that there were other factors involved in the incident, bring that up when the Commander asks you for your recommendation on punishment (which he should do after reading the charges and excusing the Soldier so you can discuss the issue during the proceedings).  You can tell him "Sir, this guy really screwed up, but he's got a lot on his mind, so I think we should just give him 5 days of extra duty and not take any pay or rank."  I always take those recommendations into account. - Most importantly, the best advice my 1SG gives all my NCOs is to "put it on paper."  If you verbally counsel a Soldier 100 times for talking back to an NCO but never right it down, it's not going to hold much water when you go in front of the Commander to give him an Article 15.  I just did two last week where the chain of command told me the whole history of how the two guys (E-5s) were skipping out of work during the day without telling anyone where they were going or asking permission, but there was only one counseling statement in each one.  Those packets went up to the Colonel for appeal, so I had to explain to him all the stuff the chain of command had told me, because they didn't put it on paper.  As my 1SG says, what all this leads to is building paper trail so that when you finally decide a Soldier isn't worth the Army's time again, you have the paperwork you need to chapter him.  Like the guy I gave 2 Company Grades and a Summarized to in Iraq, for lateness, disrespect, etc, and am now recommending for a Field Grade.  The Pattern of Misconduct chapter will start after that, because he's wasted too much of my NCOs' time to keep in the Army. - Most importantly, UCMJ is a continuous learning process, so keep asking questions.  I have to ask new ones every time I see an Article 15 packet. Dave

I've read this whole thread and some of the responses have added nothing but vinegar to the original comments by "leatherpuke". I've been "smoked" and I've "smoked" many a soldier, that's how things were done then.

Times are changing and the post by 3ACR_Scout has been a POSITIVE contribution to the discussion. Good job!

I think "smoking" a soldier as a corrective action is a good deed to not only the NCOIC but to the soldier as well.  Keeps the soldier out of big ol frustrating formalities, and saves the NCO monotonous paper work.  Sometimes paperwork is necessary, I admit, but not in every case.  Sometimes just a quick slap on the wrist is all that is needed.  "You are late, front lean and rest!"  It is up to the NCO to implement proper punishment as he seems fit "Keep the brass out of it" has always been a phrase in my immediate chain of command.  Maybe it is different in "pouge" world, but for us combative MOS's this is what works!

Quoted: I think "smoking" a soldier as a corrective action is a good deed to not only the NCOIC but to the soldier as well.  Keeps the soldier out of big ol frustrating formalities, and saves the NCO monotonous paper work.  Sometimes paperwork is necessary, I admit, but not in every case.  Sometimes just a quick slap on the wrist is all that is needed.  "You are late, front lean and rest!"  It is up to the NCO to implement proper punishment as he seems fit "Keep the brass out of it" has always been a phrase in my immediate chain of command.  Maybe it is different in "pouge" world, but for us combative MOS's this is what works!

I definitely have to admit that it's different in the Line.  I'm a headquarters commander right now, and I've talked to my PSGs about how a lot of the Article 15s should not have made it to my level.  The PSGs were turning to UCMJ too quickly when they could have done corrective training instead.  I never saw this many Article 15s when I was a tank and Scout platoon leader, and I doubt I'll see that many when I take command of a Cav Troop later this summer (at last!!).  Guys on the line are much more creative in coming up with corrective training.

However, there are definitely alternatives to "smoking" Soldiers - as an example, writing a 1000 word essay on respect and loyalty can be a serious emotional event for a young Trooper, and when he / she is required to stand up and read it in front of 15 platoon sergeants, it can be pretty traumatic.  Yes, it takes extra work on the NCOs' part, but that's good for them too!

I'd also like to say that I can't take credit for most of what I've learned as a Commander.  As it should be, just about everything I've learned in this whole process has come from my absolutely outstanding First Sergeant, who is on his way to the Sergeant Major's Academy after only 16 years in the Army.  I owe him a lot...

Dave

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So basically if it's not in a manual it doesn't exist. Hmmmm Yes.  Every action in the military is governed by a manual.  Standing at the position of attention, for example, when speaking to an officer, is in there.  Feel free to look it up. Speaking from the position of Parade Rest is clearly prohibited by that same manual, and therefore, suggesting that it's, "Correct" to speak to another man with your hands behind your back is not only wrong, it's a clear violation of the procedures that the military has for standing in such a position. How successful do you think you would be as an NCO if you tried to article 15 someone for not standing at parade rest when speaking to you? Like I said, respect is payed to NCOs by referring to them property by their titles, "Corporal" "Sergeant" "First Sergeant" or "Sergeant Major."  THAT is in SEVERAL manuals.  Standing at parade rest is not, and never will be, because it is WRONG. I hope one day a sharp-eyed CSM of the Army will note this and end this bullshit forever.  It looks very unprofessional to have your hands behind your back when speaking to another man.  Nowhere else in military service is this bullshit perpetuated other than the Army, either.  Well, not anywhre I've observed where sailors, marines, or airman are around. If someone were to "note" this - and see some sort of conflict - the proper response would be to modify the offending manual to reflect reality, not change reality.

uhhmmm NO, the Manual is reality.

leatherpuke
Last Login Date :: 6/20/2006 11:29:14 AM MDT
Last Post Date :: 6/20/2006 11:39:46 AM MDT

Wonder why we have not recieved any updates from leatherpuke other than the ones directed towards me in such a unprofessional manner.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So basically if it's not in a manual it doesn't exist. Hmmmm Yes.  Every action in the military is governed by a manual.  Standing at the position of attention, for example, when speaking to an officer, is in there.  Feel free to look it up. Speaking from the position of Parade Rest is clearly prohibited by that same manual, and therefore, suggesting that it's, "Correct" to speak to another man with your hands behind your back is not only wrong, it's a clear violation of the procedures that the military has for standing in such a position. How successful do you think you would be as an NCO if you tried to article 15 someone for not standing at parade rest when speaking to you? Like I said, respect is payed to NCOs by referring to them property by their titles, "Corporal" "Sergeant" "First Sergeant" or "Sergeant Major."  THAT is in SEVERAL manuals.  Standing at parade rest is not, and never will be, because it is WRONG. I hope one day a sharp-eyed CSM of the Army will note this and end this bullshit forever.  It looks very unprofessional to have your hands behind your back when speaking to another man.  Nowhere else in military service is this bullshit perpetuated other than the Army, either.  Well, not anywhre I've observed where sailors, marines, or airman are around. If someone were to "note" this - and see some sort of conflict - the proper response would be to modify the offending manual to reflect reality, not change reality. uhhmmm NO, the Manual is reality.

Not to him.  He's Rambo, he makes the rules.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So basically if it's not in a manual it doesn't exist. Hmmmm Yes.  Every action in the military is governed by a manual.  Standing at the position of attention, for example, when speaking to an officer, is in there.  Feel free to look it up. Speaking from the position of Parade Rest is clearly prohibited by that same manual, and therefore, suggesting that it's, "Correct" to speak to another man with your hands behind your back is not only wrong, it's a clear violation of the procedures that the military has for standing in such a position. How successful do you think you would be as an NCO if you tried to article 15 someone for not standing at parade rest when speaking to you? Like I said, respect is payed to NCOs by referring to them property by their titles, "Corporal" "Sergeant" "First Sergeant" or "Sergeant Major."  THAT is in SEVERAL manuals.  Standing at parade rest is not, and never will be, because it is WRONG. I hope one day a sharp-eyed CSM of the Army will note this and end this bullshit forever.  It looks very unprofessional to have your hands behind your back when speaking to another man.  Nowhere else in military service is this bullshit perpetuated other than the Army, either.  Well, not anywhre I've observed where sailors, marines, or airman are around. If someone were to "note" this - and see some sort of conflict - the proper response would be to modify the offending manual to reflect reality, not change reality. uhhmmm NO, the Manual is reality. Not to him.  He's Rambo, he makes the rules.

You clearly have no clue how Army Field Manuals are written or reviewed.  Keep living in your fantasy world.

Quoted: I definitely have to admit that it's different in the Line.  I'm a headquarters commander right now, and I've talked to my PSGs about how a lot of the Article 15s should not have made it to my level.  The PSGs were turning to UCMJ too quickly when they could have done corrective training instead.  I never saw this many Article 15s when I was a tank and Scout platoon leader, and I doubt I'll see that many when I take command of a Cav Troop later this summer (at last!!).  Guys on the line are much more creative in coming up with corrective training. However, there are definitely alternatives to "smoking" Soldiers - as an example, writing a 1000 word essay on respect and loyalty can be a serious emotional event for a young Trooper, and when he / she is required to stand up and read it in front of 15 platoon sergeants, it can be pretty traumatic.  Yes, it takes extra work on the NCOs' part, but that's good for them too! I'd also like to say that I can't take credit for most of what I've learned as a Commander.  As it should be, just about everything I've learned in this whole process has come from my absolutely outstanding First Sergeant, who is on his way to the Sergeant Major's Academy after only 16 years in the Army.  I owe him a lot... Dave

Like I said before, smoking is like a slap on the wrist for minor violations.  An NCO needs to put paper on a soldier who is disrespectful, has training issues, or just simply might get somebody killed in the field.  I honestly believe that the AR15 system was made to get rid of the slackers, and still be legit.  That is why we have drivers! J/K

Anywho, but at the same time I can understand where you are coming from.  I just dont think I would tell one of my joes to do an essay.  Most of the time they cant spell well, or I cant read it anyway.  

At any rate, congratulations on your Cav Position!  Gary Owen!

THIS IS POST 101 FOR ME!  TRIPLE DIGITS!!!

Quoted: You clearly have no clue how Army Field Manuals are written or reviewed.  Keep living in your fantasy world.

You clearly lack a fundamental understanding of D&C.  Speaking is absolutely not authorized under any circumstances from the position of parade rest.  Not at any time.

Quoted: Quoted: You clearly have no clue how Army Field Manuals are written or reviewed.  Keep living in your fantasy world. You clearly lack a fundamental understanding of D&C.  Speaking is absolutely not authorized under any circumstances from the position of parade rest.  Not at any time.

And every service but the Army seems to understand this...  I remember the first time I saw an Army Major address a room full of Colonels that way -- shocked the hell out of me, then I noticed that every one of the Army guys on the panel was doing it.  Not me!

Quoted: Quoted: You clearly have no clue how Army Field Manuals are written or reviewed.  Keep living in your fantasy world. You clearly lack a fundamental understanding of D&C.  Speaking is absolutely not authorized under any circumstances from the position of parade rest.  Not at any time.

It IS NOT DRILL AND CEREMONIES!

It falls under "customs and courtesies" if anything.   It is a MODIFIED position of parade rest.  In other words BASED ON the rest position at the halt, but not really the same thing.  You opinion on whether it is disrespectful is irrelevent.  It IS custom.

90% of what the Army does is NOT in some manual.  Get over yourself.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: You clearly have no clue how Army Field Manuals are written or reviewed.  Keep living in your fantasy world. You clearly lack a fundamental understanding of D&C.  Speaking is absolutely not authorized under any circumstances from the position of parade rest.  Not at any time. It IS NOT DRILL AND CEREMONIES! It falls under "customs and courtesies" if anything.   It is a MODIFIED position of parade rest.  In other words BASED ON the rest position at the halt, but not really the same thing.  You opinion on whether it is disrespectful is irrelevent.  It IS custom. 90% of what the Army does is NOT in some manual.  Get over yourself.

Maybe you're both wrong and it’s a Modified position of "At Ease". I can't remember having to brace in any way outside of training units while talking to a NCO during my time in, nor do I remember making anyone do it when talking to me as an NCO. I do remember putting troops at attention and bracing them. In TOG we had a position called Ceremonial At Ease with your rifle held on a diagonal and your hands crossed in front about belt buckle level. It was used as a relaxed position of Parade Rest, is that in any D&C manual?

Quoted: And every service but the Army seems to understand this...  I remember the first time I saw an Army Major address a room full of Colonels that way -- shocked the hell out of me, then I noticed that every one of the Army guys on the panel was doing it.  Not me!

That's wrong even by "Army standards."  Officers are to be addressed at the position of attention.

Quoted: Maybe you're both wrong and it’s a Modified position of "At Ease". I can't remember having to brace in any way outside of training units while talking to a NCO during my time in, nor do I remember making anyone do it when talking to me as an NCO. I do remember putting troops at attention and bracing them. In TOG we had a position called Ceremonial At Ease with your rifle held on a diagonal and your hands crossed in front about belt buckle level. It was used as a relaxed position of Parade Rest, is that in any D&C manual?

There is no position of, "At Ease," officially.  At that position you are allowed to move and relax, but never to speak, so long as your right foot doesn't move.  If you look in the manual it will probably tell you that upon hearing a prepatory command, you are to come to the position of parade rest prior to the execution command.

here it is. you should drop the plt as a whole and push,yes you too until you cant stand it. its called pt. as an sgt in the Marines back in 95-97 when i got out it was,you fuck up we pay in pt. extreme case tree line training...he is your leader ship failure. you unfuck it!!!!! i had a cpl years ago try me . we went to the beer garden and fixed it. the following monday the co gets a look at the cpl and asked me what happened and i told him. dont worry sir its a englisted man thing. he looked at the co gunny and he said the same. co walked off and never said shit. ask yourself long and hard am i a nco or a sgt. sgt's rule the Marine corps....  semper fi!     howster out.