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Posted: 11/11/2023 12:28:30 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's one example, and it's just as likely your buddy wasn't doing a very good job. Sales people need to perform; they are creating the sales, after all. If they are selling, they are kept. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: One of my buddies was a pretty high profile software sales lead. Full remote. I just went on vacation with him where he took no time off and 1-2 calls per day. I realized how little he works. He was terminated last week. I think a lot of companies are realizing how little some of these remote workers work. Money is tight. Companies are tightening up their budgets. That's one example, and it's just as likely your buddy wasn't doing a very good job. Sales people need to perform; they are creating the sales, after all. If they are selling, they are kept. it's not the location, it's the production. |
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Posted: 11/11/2023 12:29:46 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Then if it can be done from an office building downtown it can be done from India is also true, right? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: If it can be done from home it can be done from India Yes. Friend of mine owns a medical imaging business. Figured out there’s no need for scheduling to happen in the office. Hired a few guys in the Philippines whose idea of an amazing bonus is a $20 Amazon gift card at Christmas |
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Posted: 11/11/2023 12:32:15 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes. Friend of mine owns a medical imaging business. Figured out there's no need for scheduling to happen in the office. Hired a few guys in the Philippines whose idea of an amazing bonus is a $20 Amazon gift card at Christmas Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: If it can be done from home it can be done from India Yes. Friend of mine owns a medical imaging business. Figured out there's no need for scheduling to happen in the office. Hired a few guys in the Philippines whose idea of an amazing bonus is a $20 Amazon gift card at Christmas |
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Posted: 11/11/2023 12:33:07 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Im surprised you even need a person honestly. Hell I schedule all my labwork through labcorp online for my physicals and stuff. Fill out all my info and insurance. Pick my time and location and how up. Never even talk to a person until they sit me down and verify my DoB. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: If it can be done from home it can be done from India Yes. Friend of mine owns a medical imaging business. Figured out there's no need for scheduling to happen in the office. Hired a few guys in the Philippines whose idea of an amazing bonus is a $20 Amazon gift card at Christmas Yeah, I’m wondering about that. I haven’t heard of a scheduler being used in a long time. No hyperbole. ETA I’ve built scheduling systems before, so this circles right back to someone remote being able to build a tool here that negates even needing to send work overseas. |
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Posted: 11/11/2023 12:39:01 PM EDT
[#5]
I wish all the insurance claims reps I deal with all day were back in their offices.
The rise in WFO has had a direct correlation with the decrease in timely and thorough service. Why do they seem to need 24hrs to return a call when it used to be done same day? Doing business with a crying child in the background and the cat walking across your keyboard is bullshit. |
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Posted: 11/11/2023 12:40:13 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I wish all the insurance claims reps I deal with all day were back in their offices. The rise in WFO has had a direct correlation with the decrease in timely and thorough service. Why do they seem to need 24hrs to return a call when it used to be done same day? Doing business with a crying child in the background and the cat walking across your keyboard is bullshit. Cite, please. I’ve not experienced this at all. |
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Posted: 11/11/2023 12:43:02 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This right here. I'm in software dev. I don't have to do my job in an office, especially when my physical office is 750 miles away. I like to visit from time to time and build relationships but day to day is done in my home office. The thing is, even when you are in the office, your work is still remote. You are still remote. Servers, etc are not in the office. It makes little difference whether you connect remotely from the office or remotely from home. |
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Posted: 11/11/2023 12:43:56 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The thing is, even when you are in the office, your work is still remote. You are still remote. Servers, etc are not in the office. It makes little difference whether you connect remotely from the office or remotely from home. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: This right here. I'm in software dev. I don't have to do my job in an office, especially when my physical office is 750 miles away. I like to visit from time to time and build relationships but day to day is done in my home office. The thing is, even when you are in the office, your work is still remote. You are still remote. Servers, etc are not in the office. It makes little difference whether you connect remotely from the office or remotely from home. Ayup. “You need to be here but our servers are AWS.” …nope. |
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Posted: 11/11/2023 12:46:10 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: People won't go back to every day in the office, there's no point. Companies that mandate it will have lots of vacancies right. I turned down a job with a 20K raise which was 100% in the office. the problem is not just work on the office, it's that offices are usually in uber-expensive metro areas like Chicago or NoVA or such. When you accept a remote position and move to rural TX, you give yourself a huge raise. You can afford to buy a house with land for what it would cost you to get an apartment, or a townhouse, at best. What is the point of moving to an expensive area just to be in the office and pay these huge real estate prices (which is likely going to decline anyway) |
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Posted: 11/11/2023 12:47:40 PM EDT
[#10]
No way I'm going back.
My job is such that it's probably better to be doing it from home. My employer requires a room with a door, no working on the living room etc... |
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Posted: 11/11/2023 12:47:50 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's already significantly down from what it once was. As metro areas put pressure on large corporations/threaten to remove tax breaks, more people will be going hybrid and then back to the office. Fortune 200 here, senior mgmt- I've heard the discussions. Here |
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Posted: 11/11/2023 12:48:16 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Depends on work but for most part; folks are never going back in. We took survey; 90% said they'd quit. ALL the work we do can be done from anywhere and the single women w/children basically cannot afford the daycare, fuel, car, food, lunch and other expenses that come with going into an office. Its basically a salary onto its own. For a woman or even a family; the daycare savings alone are a salary. One female said its cheaper for her to stay at home and take care of kids - than to go to work. But working from home she oversees her two kids. ALL her work can be tracked every hour; so this aint govt work where you can move a mouse every 4 minues. We can track everything all day long and the work gets done. Yep... there it is. |
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Posted: 11/11/2023 12:48:30 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My son has a government job where he works from home He and his friends look at commute times as unpaid overtime, and gas, wear/tear on personally owned vehicles, insurance, parking costs are laughable unnecessary expenses |
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Posted: 11/11/2023 12:55:27 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Urban areas (democrats) are losing their tax revenues So true. Along those Union pension funds "investing" in Office towers are worried about getting paid as well as the lost parking / toll road / mass transit losses. RINO's don't want their portfolio's taking the hit either. Follow the money. |
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Posted: 11/11/2023 12:56:26 PM EDT
[#15]
I enjoy not having to jump in a car and wrestle the hoi polloi for 30 minutes before starting to work. It's also nice eating exactly what I want every day without having to reheat it or sit in a drive-through.
The jackasses that used to stand in my office door bitching... *poof* gone. "Oh! and one more thing!" from someone who isn't your boss ... *poof* gone "Gas prices are unbearable!" Are they? :) Countless hours of inefficient shit all whittled down to nothing. Put in the free time pile of life. You will pull WFH out of my cold dead hands. |
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Posted: 11/11/2023 1:01:10 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It’s already significantly down from what it once was. As metro areas put pressure on large corporations/threaten to remove tax breaks, more people will be going hybrid and then back to the office. Fortune 200 here, senior mgmt- I’ve heard the discussions. Here Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: No, it isn’t. It’s already significantly down from what it once was. As metro areas put pressure on large corporations/threaten to remove tax breaks, more people will be going hybrid and then back to the office. Fortune 200 here, senior mgmt- I’ve heard the discussions. Here This is very true. Pressure as in removing tax breaks an other "considerations" if they don't put butt's back in seats. Lot's of "hurt" hitting .gov "revenue" along with needing to bring 'activity' back to certain areas as the small business can't make it without the commuters. The conversations weren't Godfather III level but close enough to be uncomfortable.  Ex F300 here. Lower ranking as usual 
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Posted: 11/11/2023 1:11:25 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I live in nowhere Indiana. I have neighbors, I am not on a farm or something, but I live among farmers. If I leave my house right now, I can be driving on roads which are nothing but corn fields on both sides, before my truck's engine is warm enough to make heat. There is next to zero employment where I live which is in my career field (software development). There is no income for me to make in the location in which I live. I have though, been here and been working in my career remotely for over 16 years now. I haven't worked in an office in nearly 2 decades. I have no plans of ever doing so again. I have been at my current company for 10 of those years and I have been to the corp office a total of 1 time before they sold it. I have never met my current manager in person at this job, nor have I ever met any of my coworkers in my department. 100% of the IT department is remote and the infrastructure is in a colo. I could however call any of them at 3am, no matter where there are and they will answer with "What's up Burnsy?". It doesn't matter where we are. It matters who we are. I am a sysadmin, I support developers and database admins so I am probably the guy you call at 3AM when the filesystem gets full or the machine is not available for some reason. It would move to nowhere Indiana from the uber-expensive (and almost pointless) Northern Virginia area if I could own my own places and acres of land without going into debt slavery for decades. I am already remote, so I ask myself every day what's the point of even being here. |
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Posted: 11/11/2023 1:48:22 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yep. I work in a company that has a sales/account group and most of them have quarterly metrics they need to hit. It's definitely a bell curve. We have some serious rock starts that make more than the CEO (this is a billion+ company too), the majority checks the boxes every quarter, and the other side of the curve gets terminated or quits knowing it's coming and jumps into a new sales gig somewhere else. it's not the location, it's the production. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: One of my buddies was a pretty high profile software sales lead. Full remote. I just went on vacation with him where he took no time off and 1-2 calls per day. I realized how little he works. He was terminated last week. I think a lot of companies are realizing how little some of these remote workers work. Money is tight. Companies are tightening up their budgets. That's one example, and it's just as likely your buddy wasn't doing a very good job. Sales people need to perform; they are creating the sales, after all. If they are selling, they are kept. it's not the location, it's the production. Sales are going to be a tough field going forward. Balance sheets are going to get hammered with interest rates rising and corporate debt needing to be rolled forward. I was at a conference this last week and lots of discussion about what investments companies have, including CRE and REIT’s. Liabilities may exceed assets for some putting further pressure on them if they start having liquidity events. |
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Posted: 11/11/2023 2:09:15 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: As soon as the cunt of DC Muriel Bowser said all the .gov workers needed to come back into the offices in DC Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Urban areas (democrats) are losing their tax revenues As soon as the cunt of DC Muriel Bowser said all the .gov workers needed to come back into the offices in DC FIFY |
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Posted: 11/11/2023 2:10:34 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I hope so. I want them to move back to where they came from. True, a small benefit of the RTO push. If only. I'm thinking a large percentage won't go back no matter what. 
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Posted: 11/11/2023 2:16:19 PM EDT
[#21]
We started hiring non local WFH positions during COVID. Most of them have been cut now due to low performance. Even though we are still mostly WFH we moved back to preferring local hires. There has been a slow drum beat to get people back into the office a few days a week. If we hit a recession that will be the point where they will force it.
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Posted: 11/11/2023 2:21:03 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Depends on work but for most part; folks are never going back in. We took survey; 90% said they'd quit. ALL the work we do can be done from anywhere and the single women w/children basically cannot afford the daycare, fuel, car, food, lunch and other expenses that come with going into an office. Its basically a salary onto its own. For a woman or even a family; the daycare savings alone are a salary. One female said its cheaper for her to stay at home and take care of kids - than to go to work. But working from home she oversees her two kids. ALL her work can be tracked every hour; so this aint govt work where you can move a mouse every 4 minues. We can track everything all day long and the work gets done. The daycare bit opened a lot of eyes that were just stuck in write the check every month. Add in the other costs and people started doing the math. Despite the talk of inflated wages they really haven't kept up. One of the daughters did the math, and determined that going back wouldn't be worth it if it went over one / two days a week. She'd rather find something else remote or pick up some project by project work that can be 90% remote than go back 5 days a week. I expect having a <2yr child and him being the first weighs in on that. Her husband is 100% remote and since the company he works for sold off / didn't renew any of their leases on office space I'd expect him to stay that way. I'm back to 1 day a week, but TPTB let go of almost all of our space except for a DC in a previous building and one 3 story building with a partial DC that's being 'converted' to "flexible working space" meaning hot desking and small conference rooms for when someone does show up on site. CRE is taking a beating, I don't care what the 'experts' on CNBC say.
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Posted: 11/11/2023 2:31:08 PM EDT
[#23]
I'll go back if they pay me for my drive and other things related to being in the office.
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Posted: 11/11/2023 2:41:49 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It’s going to be fun when CRE values aren’t there to support stocks or pension liabilities. In my humble non professional totally uneducated opinion, the pension funds are probably the ones whispering in the CEO/Mayors ears to get those people back in here and turn those machines back on! Dig into any decent sized CRE and once you get past all the papered over LLCs the bag holders are almost always pension funds (usually "public" ones) or PE. They don't like not seeing the ROI they were expecting and have bought many, many politicians and bankers just for this very reason. |
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Posted: 11/11/2023 2:42:06 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It’s already significantly down from what it once was. As metro areas put pressure on large corporations/threaten to remove tax breaks, more people will be going hybrid and then back to the office. Fortune 200 here, senior mgmt- I’ve heard the discussions. Here Like you im Senior Mgmt too. I've also heard the discussions. I agree the idiot boomers with MBA's are insistent. I've seen it happen twice now both backfired on upper management and both ended up costing a lot more and going back to the way it was but taking a year to replace the team from all the people leaving. We couldn't find good people even with a hybrid 3 days in the office. The younger generation rightly so doesn't want to do it, and the boomers are past their prime anyways and need to retire. You can talk about it all you want but people are just not going to do it, and there is going to be a labor shortage for some time. |
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Posted: 11/11/2023 2:43:43 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My wife is a state employee and her division announced recently that they are going to be making the division hybrid, and then slowly creeping towards fully remote for all roles not 100% necessary on site. She’s currently 1 day/week from home. They’re looking at 3 days WFH at some point 2024. It all probably depends on job field and city. My job could be 100% remote, but our CEO doesn’t want us to WFH, despite her and my director being fully remote. How typical. 
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Posted: 11/11/2023 2:44:37 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My company sold the corp office. There is no where for me to go to work......to. They are not going to buy another office lol. A friend works IT for a law firm that rented 8 floors in an office building in a large city. Not a "sky scraper" I would say, but floors 27-34 smack in the middle of down town. So...I am sure the rent wasn't cheap. The "corner partners" were the big dog attorneys with literally that, the building corner offices with floor to ceiling windows of the city below. They have 2 floors left, they let the rest of them go. They keep those two for servers, IT hardware and other infrastructure. The only people who go there are the hardware guys and people who need to pull physical paperwork. He said they have no plans of going back and everyone has scattered around the globe. That the higher ups have expressed that if the company tries to make them go back to working in an office, they have formed a unified front that they will all go elsewhere. The company then tried. They sent out a notice to a bunch of people that if they didn't show up to the office the following Monday, they would be terminated. Nobody showed up and nobody has been terminated. Either this happens, or people quit on their own and it becomes a mess, turns out the antiques in management cant do the work of the teams they are leading..... In other words they need us more than we need them. |
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Posted: 11/11/2023 2:48:02 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Urban areas (democrats) are losing their tax revenues |
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Posted: 11/11/2023 2:49:13 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not to mention international work now slowly opening up more. Big business can scream and shout about returning to the office, but it’s not going to happen en masse like some on here secretly (and not so secretly) wish for. It already has, I know dozes who became WFH during the coof that are back in the office. |
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Posted: 11/11/2023 2:51:59 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It already has, I know dozes who became WFH during the coof that are back in the office. Dozens != “en masse” |
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Posted: 11/11/2023 2:57:02 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The irony is, they are reaping the same thing whether someone is using the office buildings or not. They aren't paying extra for the people that are working from home. It matters not if people are in that office or not, aside from their knowledge that the buildings are empty. It seems like they would be saving on overhead. They pay for the lease if employees are there, they pay for the lease if they aren't. What am I missing? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Our senior management is pushing everyone to come work in the office full time, mainly because they're locked into the expensive lease on our needlessly extravagant office for several more years. They're delusional if they think people are going to agree to it; most of us already worked remotely before covid started. I live several hours from our office and there is a zero-point-zero percent chance I'm ever going to agree to commute to the office even one day a week. The irony is, they are reaping the same thing whether someone is using the office buildings or not. They aren't paying extra for the people that are working from home. It matters not if people are in that office or not, aside from their knowledge that the buildings are empty. It seems like they would be saving on overhead. They pay for the lease if employees are there, they pay for the lease if they aren't. What am I missing? If they were really smart, the lease contract was written to allow for an early out, or at least a pro-rated one. Nobody signs a 10 year lease and doesn't have the option to leave after 5 or for a pro-rated early out penalty. Unless of course it was a DIE hire.
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Posted: 11/11/2023 3:12:01 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: As soon as the cunt of DC Muriel Bowser said all the .gov workers needed to come back into the offices in DC so the surrounding businesses could make money off of them I asked, "what about climate change from all those cars being driven again?" Lib coworker went through some mighty interesting mental gymnastics on how it's different in that instance. oh thats easy. Those cars were already "baked in" LOFL |
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Posted: 11/11/2023 3:20:21 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because it is! I've done the back of the napkin math If I took a new (in office) job in the same high COL market my current employer resides in, I'd need 50% + raise just to break even. This covers everything from the commute, wear/tear on my car, parking, hitting a higher tax bracket, etc. I'm in a sweet spot right now |
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Posted: 11/11/2023 3:24:50 PM EDT
[#34]
As a tradesmen, I always get a lot of entertainment out of these threads. I get that certain occupations can WFH or remote just fine.
However there are still physical things that need done in the real world. Someone is going to have to be physically present to do those things. Automation / AI is coming sooner for you WFH types, than for the people running the sewer plant or fixing the wind turbines. Also I think that some of the pressure for RTO / hybrid is to stop people from double dipping. |
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Posted: 11/11/2023 3:26:06 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Either this happens, or people quit on their own and it becomes a mess, turns out the antiques in management cant do the work of the teams they are leading..... In other words they need us more than we need them. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: My company sold the corp office. There is no where for me to go to work......to. They are not going to buy another office lol. A friend works IT for a law firm that rented 8 floors in an office building in a large city. Not a "sky scraper" I would say, but floors 27-34 smack in the middle of down town. So...I am sure the rent wasn't cheap. The "corner partners" were the big dog attorneys with literally that, the building corner offices with floor to ceiling windows of the city below. They have 2 floors left, they let the rest of them go. They keep those two for servers, IT hardware and other infrastructure. The only people who go there are the hardware guys and people who need to pull physical paperwork. He said they have no plans of going back and everyone has scattered around the globe. That the higher ups have expressed that if the company tries to make them go back to working in an office, they have formed a unified front that they will all go elsewhere. The company then tried. They sent out a notice to a bunch of people that if they didn't show up to the office the following Monday, they would be terminated. Nobody showed up and nobody has been terminated. Either this happens, or people quit on their own and it becomes a mess, turns out the antiques in management cant do the work of the teams they are leading..... In other words they need us more than we need them. Not all folks in management are antiques. I’m a millennial and one of a handful of people in my company who can do certain work. I know what my team can and cannot do and why I promote flexibility. But I’ve seen 100% WFH goes sideways even before COVID. |
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Posted: 11/11/2023 3:49:35 PM EDT
[#36]
some months back, the texas railroad commission announced that remote work was harming the culture and that they were moving to 4/office 1/tele.
within 2 weeks, my group got something like 35 applicants from senior RRC employees. about 2 weeks later, RRC announced that they were staying on 2/office 3/tele. |
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Posted: 11/11/2023 3:53:48 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: As a tradesmen, I always get a lot of entertainment out of these threads. I get that certain occupations can WFH or remote just fine. However there are still physical things that need done in the real world. Someone is going to have to be physically present to do those things. Automation / AI is coming sooner for you WFH types, than for the people running the sewer plant or fixing the wind turbines. Also I think that some of the pressure for RTO / hybrid is to stop people from double dipping. I agree that automation and AI will come for knowledge-based jobs first. 100%. The first layer will be to replace people who have no decisions to make and simply repeat tasks. That is well underway. It will be a long time coming before full-fledged systems engineering and such comes into play. There are often compliance and/or human factors to take into account; AI is not quite there yet. There is pressure to keep people from double-dipping, for sure. That said, it has happened, is happening, and will continue to happen. Unless there's a clear conflict of interest or the employee signs some sort of agreement that states they won't accept any other work, I'm not sure how it's enforceable to stop people from moonlighting on their own time. Companies in different time zones for instance, offering project-based, or even freelance work. I, myself, was classified as "overemployed" for a time. I can balance everything I do, there's no conflict or violations of covenants, and I usually only ever accept project-based work. I can make time for school, my side business, and still go riding, read, have a beer with the boys, etc. In our world, it's not about the hours you put in, it's if you can solve X problem by Y time. That's the direction the entire sector is heading in. Some people can do it better and faster than others. It's as simple as that. I like the idea of trades myself, and am looking at skills to learn (that I admit, right now I don't have time for with everything else). I would love to weld, for instance. Trades are good, and I also think it'll be a long time before they get overtaken (if they do at all). |
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Posted: 11/11/2023 3:57:18 PM EDT
[#38]
If the job is truly 100% computer I can see it. Jobs that require even a little bit of hands on to be really effective I think it leads to less work and lower quality.
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Posted: 11/11/2023 3:58:51 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: some months back, the texas railroad commission announced that remote work was harming the culture and that they were moving to 4/office 1/tele. within 2 weeks, my group got something like 35 applicants from senior RRC employees. about 2 weeks later, RRC announced that they were staying on 2/office 3/tele. 
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Posted: 11/11/2023 4:19:47 PM EDT
[#40]
My job cannot be done remotely. Even during the Covid lockdown I went in to work every dey.
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Posted: 11/11/2023 4:30:22 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If work slows down the boss will look to fire the least productive employee and yes that could be your daughter even though she drives to the office every day Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: If you live close to work you can easily be in the office everyday. This is where living close to work has an advantage over living far away. Of course, if you want to change jobs and still stay close to work you may have to move. Our youngest has an advantage over coworkers by her walking into the office everyday, while other employees are there only 2 or 3 days a week. All other things being equal who does the boss think more highly of? The people that whine about being in the office or the person that is there everyday? If work slows down the boss will look to fire the least productive employee and yes that could be your daughter even though she drives to the office every day You got two things wrong. She's highly productive and highly rated, and she walks to work. Companies want team players. If that means coming into the office, then come into the office and stop your bitching. Or go elsewhere. I'm sure some of her coworkers don't like the fact that she's willing to come into the office every day. Too bad for them. Over the holidays she'll be at home working remote for a couple weeks in the US and a couple weeks in London. Don't believe the myth that highly rated people don't get fired. With 40 years in tech, I've seen plenty of them get fired, their skills are no longer needed by the business and they're too expensive to keep around. |
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Posted: 11/11/2023 4:40:39 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Try being a retail pharmacist, a grocery cashier, a mechanic, a plumber, an electrician, etc, remote from home. Um yeah, nope. Lots of people got to enjoy working their asses off during Covid, while half the workforce to to remote it. Even the kids got to remote school, which resulted in an no-learning shitshow. Obviously there are many jobs that can't be performed from home. I would not be able to perform mine from home. That doesn't mean I'm mad at people that can. |
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Posted: 11/11/2023 4:45:41 PM EDT
[#43]
Absolutely no person that's been full remote at our company has been anything close to reasonably productive.
As far as my anecdotal experience is concerned, it's a good way for the folks that would normally be fucking off on their phone or taking 8 bathroom breaks to not even have to try to hide it anymore. Remote work is a race to the bottom and may as well be company funded UBI. |
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Posted: 11/11/2023 4:49:08 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: (shrug) You're hung up on the old ways, looks to me. Admittedly, some companies are going to have to stay with them, simply due to the nature of their product. But the truth is that for many products, the whole Covid nonsense proved the job could be done cheaper by not having overhead for an office, and no sensible management is going to go back to that. Hell, even clients can't be bothered to come to your office anymore, not with worldwide business. Everything is done by phone, video conference, etc. because it's faster and more efficient. Why would a client from, say, Wuhan come to your office? He wouldn't. He would look at what you produce and what it costs, talk to you, and make a decision. Typically, if he wants face to face, he wants YOU to come to HIM and sell him. If he requires more handholding than that, if he needs all the trappings of 20th century biz like expensive office building, etc., it's probably easier to not have him as a client, anyway. Let the old school guys service him and work on new biz minded people for growth. This is the direction things are going, and they are not turning around. More efficiency, more speed, less overhead. Going back to the office just because some clingers prefer it is, for many tech workers, like going back to typewriters because the boss uses the sound of the keys as a measure of work. It's stupid and wasteful, and it's just not going to happen. And as for me, I don't need to worry about the need to escape my 1 bedroom apartment because I am a highly skilled professional with lots of options. If my current employer were to suddenly demand I start working in the office, I'd find another employer, same as if they cut my paycheck in half. But they won't, and guess why? Because even the CEO doesn't come in to the office anymore, and the company only maintain a small coworking space. And the reason they do that is because they make more money like that, and the boss gets to live where he wants, too. This is the way. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: In my kid's case that's where the company is at now and she's fine with going into the office. Staying in her one BR apartment all day long would be like sitting in a prison cell. Everyone's situation is different. Every company's situation is different too. As far as business need goes, it's tangible proof that you're a legit company, you have real employees, you know what the F you're doing, you have a steady stream of revenue, etc. How do you show all that to a potential customer if the entire company is "in the cloud"? If all the work you've done is proprietary and can't be shown or talked about, you're sort of counting on them just believing you. Good luck with that. (shrug) You're hung up on the old ways, looks to me. Admittedly, some companies are going to have to stay with them, simply due to the nature of their product. But the truth is that for many products, the whole Covid nonsense proved the job could be done cheaper by not having overhead for an office, and no sensible management is going to go back to that. Hell, even clients can't be bothered to come to your office anymore, not with worldwide business. Everything is done by phone, video conference, etc. because it's faster and more efficient. Why would a client from, say, Wuhan come to your office? He wouldn't. He would look at what you produce and what it costs, talk to you, and make a decision. Typically, if he wants face to face, he wants YOU to come to HIM and sell him. If he requires more handholding than that, if he needs all the trappings of 20th century biz like expensive office building, etc., it's probably easier to not have him as a client, anyway. Let the old school guys service him and work on new biz minded people for growth. This is the direction things are going, and they are not turning around. More efficiency, more speed, less overhead. Going back to the office just because some clingers prefer it is, for many tech workers, like going back to typewriters because the boss uses the sound of the keys as a measure of work. It's stupid and wasteful, and it's just not going to happen. And as for me, I don't need to worry about the need to escape my 1 bedroom apartment because I am a highly skilled professional with lots of options. If my current employer were to suddenly demand I start working in the office, I'd find another employer, same as if they cut my paycheck in half. But they won't, and guess why? Because even the CEO doesn't come in to the office anymore, and the company only maintain a small coworking space. And the reason they do that is because they make more money like that, and the boss gets to live where he wants, too. This is the way. I'm not hung up on anything, I'm just bringing up why some companies aren't completely on the WFH band wagon yet. I did WFH for many years, officially and unofficially, and was just as productive remotely as in office. I'm in favor of employers and employees working out what's best for both of them. Sometimes WFH works out well, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it doesn't because of the nature of the work, sometimes it doesn't because of the nature of the employer or employee. Employers have to face the reality that employees can go elsewhere if employees have remote work options. When I left my last job the HR department grilled me a long time to understand if I was leaving because of the RTO or not; it was just a coincidence. Anyway, I think we basically agree. Cheers. |
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Posted: 11/11/2023 4:50:49 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: right. I turned down a job with a 20K raise which was 100% in the office. the problem is not just work on the office, it's that offices are usually in uber-expensive metro areas like Chicago or NoVA or such. When you accept a remote position and move to rural TX, you give yourself a huge raise. You can afford to buy a house with land for what it would cost you to get an apartment, or a townhouse, at best. What is the point of moving to an expensive area just to be in the office and pay these huge real estate prices (which is likely going to decline anyway) Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: People won't go back to every day in the office, there's no point. Companies that mandate it will have lots of vacancies right. I turned down a job with a 20K raise which was 100% in the office. the problem is not just work on the office, it's that offices are usually in uber-expensive metro areas like Chicago or NoVA or such. When you accept a remote position and move to rural TX, you give yourself a huge raise. You can afford to buy a house with land for what it would cost you to get an apartment, or a townhouse, at best. What is the point of moving to an expensive area just to be in the office and pay these huge real estate prices (which is likely going to decline anyway) This is really interesting. These cycles always are. We’ve seen a huge shift in recent decades to the cities, and small rural towns and decayed with only methbillies left. I wonder if we will see a large scale reversal. Like when white flight happened, cities decayed, then yuppies moved back in, bid real estate prices back up and “gentrified” neighborhoods. It will be interesting to see if young people want to live rurally. Ultimately it is actions of young people that will drive this. |
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Posted: 11/11/2023 4:53:29 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You got two things wrong. She's highly productive and highly rated, and she walks to work. Companies want team players. If that means coming into the office, then come into the office and stop your bitching. Or go elsewhere. I'm sure some of her coworkers don't like the fact that she's willing to come into the office every day. Too bad for them. Over the holidays she'll be at home working remote for a couple weeks in the US and a couple weeks in London. Don't believe the myth that highly rated people don't get fired. With 40 years in tech, I've seen plenty of them get fired, their skills are no longer needed by the business and they're too expensive to keep around. Which is EXACTLY why nobody gives a shit about anything but the bottom dollar. There's no upside to being a team player in a world where everyone is treated like day laborers. These days, loyalty is probably the most costly "skill" to develop in an employee. You're going to have to pay 10% better than anyone in the nation, at least, and probably more like 30% for probably 10 years in order to get them feeling like a company will keep them around. |
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Posted: 11/11/2023 4:54:42 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: As the boss, I think most highly of those who deliver the product I ask them to deliver, with high quality, on the timeline I ask of them. Where they do that from is immaterial to me. Results are all that matters. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: If you live close to work you can easily be in the office everyday. This is where living close to work has an advantage over living far away. Of course, if you want to change jobs and still stay close to work you may have to move. Our youngest has an advantage over coworkers by her walking into the office everyday, while other employees are there only 2 or 3 days a week. All other things being equal who does the boss think more highly of? The people that whine about being in the office or the person that is there everyday? As the boss, I think most highly of those who deliver the product I ask them to deliver, with high quality, on the timeline I ask of them. Where they do that from is immaterial to me. Results are all that matters. Yes, of course. My kid knows that too. |
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Posted: 11/11/2023 4:58:19 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ... The haters are going to hate, and at this point it’s just adorable. They’re wrong on basically every point. If India was the promised land for work, it’d all be there. I’ve been remote since 2011, far longer than a lot of people here. This system is just not going to change, no matter how hard the antis say it will. ... The myopia is astounding. Business intelligence, logistics, apps/software, social media, etc. It’s enveloping the world. Think of all the goods you can see. There was a study done a few years ago, if I can recall the source I will I worked remote with an acoustic coupler over a POTS line once.
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Posted: 11/11/2023 5:05:03 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There is an 800 number on the back of my health insurance card that you can call and talk to.....someone. It says it's for non emergency medical questions. Not sure if actual nurses or not, but I would say there is a pretty good chance that who ever answers that call is sitting at home. I learned on arfcom that you can communicate directly to your doctor's office via a web portal. Ask them questions about your health and prescriptions via text and they will respond. I would bet that at least some of them respond to that thing while not in the office. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Nurses care for patients form home? I learned on arfcom that you can communicate directly to your doctor's office via a web portal. Ask them questions about your health and prescriptions via text and they will respond. I would bet that at least some of them respond to that thing while not in the office. |
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Posted: 11/11/2023 5:05:42 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I also think that people in this thread are not talking about the same jobs. The future of remote work for high skill / high knowledge jobs (like a lot of the IT roles mentioned already) is very different from Karen's clerical job reviewing loan closing documents from home. The former will remain in high demand (if anything moreso), giving employees significant leverage. They are also not transactional jobs - I don't clock in or out, nor am I expected to get X work done an hour. The latter is much easier to replace and has a much larger pool of workers available. Not to mention that low skills jobs doing repetitive work - remote or in office - are at a very high risk of being eliminated by automation over the coming years. Why have 100 Karens come back to the office when you can replace them with a small dev team to configure and maintain a system to review and validate those closing docs? this |
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