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Posted: 1/29/2018 1:08:26 PM EST
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The existence of the new 10/22 integrally suppressed barrel is what makes me excited about this gun, and what keeps me from buying one of the CZ guns. Ruger would be foolish not to make one for the PCC. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: I'm definitely on the camp of having an integral barrel too... Two stamp guns are a pain in the ass. I really hope this takes off. The possibilities with the modular design are huge. The more I read about them the more I want to buy one when my LGS finally gets one in. The only accessories I really want for it are a Magpul X-22 backpacker style stock and a barrel-mounted rail like they make for the 10/22 takedown. Some more mag blocks would also be nice down the road (Beretta 92 so I can use my many 92 mags), but Glock mags are fine for now. I actually think it looks pretty nice with the short Glock 26 magazine and since I am in CA that is the perfect size. |
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Posted: 1/29/2018 1:23:16 PM EST
[#2]
44 mag? New deer Slayer. 22 mag. 22 TCM. 50 AE
Possibilites are endless. This will be the HR Rifle on the semi auto world if ruger keeps it going . Just need mag adapters and bolts |
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Posted: 1/29/2018 2:44:09 PM EST
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
44 mag? New deer Slayer. 22 mag. 22 TCM. 50 AE Possibilites are endless. This will be the HR Rifle on the semi auto world if ruger keeps it going . Just need mag adapters and bolts I would love to see a 22 TCM version. I think it'd just require an new barrel, as the 9mm bolt and mags should work fine. |
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Posted: 1/29/2018 2:56:12 PM EST
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The mag well looks too short for 44mag. Same with 50 AE. Rimfire might work if they have an offset firing pin extension in the bolt head, but I'm not sure how the firing pin is set up in that gun. I would love to see a 22 TCM version. I think it'd just require an new barrel, as the 9mm bolt and mags should work fine. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
44 mag? New deer Slayer. 22 mag. 22 TCM. 50 AE Possibilites are endless. This will be the HR Rifle on the semi auto world if ruger keeps it going . Just need mag adapters and bolts I would love to see a 22 TCM version. I think it'd just require an new barrel, as the 9mm bolt and mags should work fine. |
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Posted: 1/29/2018 3:02:50 PM EST
[#5]
Unfolding is faster than putting together.
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Posted: 1/29/2018 3:07:24 PM EST
[#6]
Quote HistoryThis is very true, the SUB-2000 is very very hard to beat, its also lighter than the Ruger.
But, has anyone found a way to mount an optic so it swings in place over the bore? Or at least a system that is not gay? |
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Posted: 1/29/2018 3:15:59 PM EST
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is very true, the SUB-2000 is very very hard to beat, its also lighter than the Ruger.
But, has anyone found a way to mount an optic so it swings in place over the bore? Or at least a system that is not gay? |
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Posted: 1/29/2018 3:17:16 PM EST
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is very true, the SUB-2000 is very very hard to beat, its also lighter than the Ruger. But, has anyone found a way to mount an optic so it swings in place over the bore? Or at least a system that is not gay? The 45 degree offset mounts aren't bad either. You can get it into a 12 o'clock position without the stock in an awkward position on your shoulder. If it craps out you can rotate back to using BUIS. |
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Posted: 1/29/2018 3:24:51 PM EST
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Unfolding is faster than putting together. |
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Posted: 1/29/2018 3:57:17 PM EST
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
While the bolt face is the same I would think that timing would change. Is the pressure the same as 9mm? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
44 mag? New deer Slayer. 22 mag. 22 TCM. 50 AE Possibilites are endless. This will be the HR Rifle on the semi auto world if ruger keeps it going . Just need mag adapters and bolts I would love to see a 22 TCM version. I think it'd just require an new barrel, as the 9mm bolt and mags should work fine. |
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Posted: 1/29/2018 4:01:33 PM EST
[#11]
Quote HistoryBut Ruger will probably actually make them in decent numbers, consistently, and will have the the interchangeable magwell/barrel/bolt head. Not that the Sub2000 isn't a good gun. It's a slick system for sure. But I had a hell of a time finding one that took 92 mags (never did before they banned them here) and the Ruger is a much more modular system. |
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Posted: 1/29/2018 4:03:44 PM EST
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How much for that rifle as it's shown? Quote HistoryQuoted:
I paid $429 shipped for my Kel-Tec from Palmetto State Armory. That gives you ~$200 worth give or take for accessories before you even arrive at the stock price of the Ruger. That being said, Kel-Tec is notorious for not producing enough to meet demand and the other offerings like the CZ Scorpion are much pricier. So I think Ruger may have found a comfortable place in the market with this one. It comes down to what the user wants it for. My own idea for a pistol caliber carbine is something meaner than a handgun that can score easier hits but still be able to keep concealed when not in use. With that particular role, it needs to be able to be put into action quickly. Even with my purpose, a Scorpion Evo pistol SBR'ed with a folding stock would fit the bill better, but I had to make some concessions due to cost. |
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Posted: 1/29/2018 4:05:47 PM EST
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Don't know much about the red dot they have on there. But I'd wager you could put together a similar setup with a Bushnell TRS for close to what the Ruger retails for bone stock. I paid $429 shipped for my Kel-Tec from Palmetto State Armory. That gives you ~$200 worth give or take for accessories before you even arrive at the stock price of the Ruger. That being said, Kel-Tec is notorious for not producing enough to meet demand and the other offerings like the CZ Scorpion are much pricier. So I think Ruger may have found a comfortable place in the market with this one. It comes down to what the user wants it for. My own idea for a pistol caliber carbine is something meaner than a handgun that can score easier hits but still be able to keep concealed when not in use. With that particular role, it needs to be able to be put into action quickly. Even with my purpose, a Scorpion Evo pistol SBR'ed with a folding stock would fit the bill better, but I had to make some concessions due to cost. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I paid $429 shipped for my Kel-Tec from Palmetto State Armory. That gives you ~$200 worth give or take for accessories before you even arrive at the stock price of the Ruger. That being said, Kel-Tec is notorious for not producing enough to meet demand and the other offerings like the CZ Scorpion are much pricier. So I think Ruger may have found a comfortable place in the market with this one. It comes down to what the user wants it for. My own idea for a pistol caliber carbine is something meaner than a handgun that can score easier hits but still be able to keep concealed when not in use. With that particular role, it needs to be able to be put into action quickly. Even with my purpose, a Scorpion Evo pistol SBR'ed with a folding stock would fit the bill better, but I had to make some concessions due to cost. |
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Posted: 1/29/2018 4:06:57 PM EST
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
But Ruger will probably actually make them in decent numbers, consistently, and will have the the interchangeable magwell/barrel/bolt head. Not that the Sub2000 isn't a good gun. It's a slick system for sure. But I had a hell of a time finding one that took 92 mags (never did before they banned them here) and the Ruger is a much more modular system. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not that the Sub2000 isn't a good gun. It's a slick system for sure. But I had a hell of a time finding one that took 92 mags (never did before they banned them here) and the Ruger is a much more modular system. |
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Posted: 1/29/2018 4:15:41 PM EST
[#15]
Quote HistoryBut can you fold it loaded? |
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Posted: 1/29/2018 4:27:45 PM EST
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But can you fold it loaded?  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S219VasAxqY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vb8jX8rOyBMYou can have it folded w/ the bolt to the rear so you'll just have to slap it to chamber a round, but I've never had good results carrying a semi-auto rifle w/ the bolt to the rear. The bolt always closes @ an unexpected moment. |
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Posted: 1/29/2018 4:35:57 PM EST
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
See my post below yours. I'm a big Ruger fan, and not hating on this rifle by any means. It just doesn't fit the role I want as good as the Kel-Tec does. I even mentioned that Kel-Tec sucks at producing enough units so Ruger will definitely make some $$$ with this offering for sure, considering the Scorpion is like 8 or 9 hundred bucks. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Not that the Sub2000 isn't a good gun. It's a slick system for sure. But I had a hell of a time finding one that took 92 mags (never did before they banned them here) and the Ruger is a much more modular system. |
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Posted: 1/29/2018 4:45:01 PM EST
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I get ya and am in full agreement. The S2000 can definitely do some things the takedown cannot, or do them better, which is why I was after one a few years back. If they were still legal here I'd probably have eventually settled for the glock model (which was the only one I ever found for sale). |
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Posted: 1/29/2018 4:54:28 PM EST
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I get ya and am in full agreement. The S2000 can definitely do some things the takedown cannot, or do them better, which is why I was after one a few years back. If they were still legal here I'd probably have eventually settled for the glock model (which was the only one I ever found for sale). ETA: It looks like it's been done, aside from the latch and front sight. |
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Posted: 1/29/2018 5:27:43 PM EST
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The 22TCM/9mm combo guns that RIA sells are just a different barrel, keeps the same mag/slide/springs iirc Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
44 mag? New deer Slayer. 22 mag. 22 TCM. 50 AE Possibilites are endless. This will be the HR Rifle on the semi auto world if ruger keeps it going . Just need mag adapters and bolts I would love to see a 22 TCM version. I think it'd just require an new barrel, as the 9mm bolt and mags should work fine. Blowback has issues with some rounds. |
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Posted: 1/29/2018 5:29:59 PM EST
[#21]
FYI: I paid $520 for my Ruger PCC at a local gun store.
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Posted: 1/29/2018 5:31:14 PM EST
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Those aren't blowback though @CFletch Blowback has issues with some rounds. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Quoted:
Quoted:
44 mag? New deer Slayer. 22 mag. 22 TCM. 50 AE Possibilites are endless. This will be the HR Rifle on the semi auto world if ruger keeps it going . Just need mag adapters and bolts I would love to see a 22 TCM version. I think it'd just require an new barrel, as the 9mm bolt and mags should work fine. Blowback has issues with some rounds. |
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Posted: 1/29/2018 5:33:28 PM EST
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Those aren't blowback though @CFletch Blowback has issues with some rounds. |
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Posted: 1/29/2018 5:50:47 PM EST
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Don't a number of mechanisms generally have issue with bottleneck cartridges? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Those aren't blowback though @CFletch Blowback has issues with some rounds. |
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Posted: 1/29/2018 7:26:14 PM EST
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
usually they feed better than straight-wall cartridges, or so I thought Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: Those aren't blowback though @CFletch Blowback has issues with some rounds. |
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Posted: 1/29/2018 8:22:20 PM EST
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
From what I understand, the issue w/ bottlenecks in mass-delayed (straight) blowbacks is the bottleneck leaving the front of the chamber too soon, and gas pressure then exiting the chamber around the case. Wasn't a problem in Soviet 7.62x25mm submachine guns, nor with the 5.7x28mm FN in the P90 or the AR5.7. Might be an issue w/ the .357 SIG or 9x25mm Dillon. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: Those aren't blowback though @CFletch Blowback has issues with some rounds. The Ruger's bolt has a weight inside iirc, and it might be possible to swap it out. If so that'd allow it to be properly adapted. |
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Posted: 1/29/2018 8:23:20 PM EST
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The mag well looks too short for 44mag. Same with 50 AE. Rimfire might work if they have an offset firing pin extension in the bolt head, but I'm not sure how the firing pin is set up in that gun. I would love to see a 22 TCM version. I think it'd just require an new barrel, as the 9mm bolt and mags should work fine. |
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Posted: 1/29/2018 8:24:16 PM EST
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
While the bolt face is the same I would think that timing would change. Is the pressure the same as 9mm? |
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Posted: 1/29/2018 8:45:14 PM EST
[#29]
Based on its accuracy at 25 yds in the latest American Rifleman I'm no longer interested.
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Posted: 1/29/2018 8:49:20 PM EST
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
5.7 mmmmmmmmmilimeter. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The mag well looks too short for 44mag. Same with 50 AE. Rimfire might work if they have an offset firing pin extension in the bolt head, but I'm not sure how the firing pin is set up in that gun. I would love to see a 22 TCM version. I think it'd just require an new barrel, as the 9mm bolt and mags should work fine. |
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Posted: 1/29/2018 8:50:28 PM EST
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Based on its accuracy at 25 yds in the latest American Rifleman I'm no longer interested. |
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Posted: 1/29/2018 8:54:46 PM EST
[#32]
A bad review in AR?
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Posted: 1/29/2018 8:56:04 PM EST
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
haven't read the latest issue of AR, but the reviews I've heard here have been pretty good in that department Apologies in advance if I misread. |
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Posted: 1/29/2018 9:01:21 PM EST
[#34]
Quote HistoryThe Ruger will win in the free market for three reasons:
1) The Ruger is modular 2) The Ruger is strongly built and durable. The KT looks and feels flimsy. 3) KT makes about ten Sub2000s a year. Ruger will build thousands. Every LGS in the country will have one or the ability to get one in short order. |
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Posted: 1/29/2018 9:02:36 PM EST
[#35]
499+tax I paid for my PC Carbine. Have has every incarnation of sub 2000 including the original. Accuracy is good at 25, don't know where the 2-3 inches came from. I like it much more than my subs, and I'm a hardcore sub2k fan boy. It's also nice having a cheek weld and stock. With my octane 9 it is awesome, albeit long.
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Posted: 1/29/2018 9:03:20 PM EST
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wouldn't OD of the barrel make a difference? 10/22 barrel is .915 at it's widest, tapers to .765 at the forward end of the latching mechanism block. PCC barrel is .965 at it's tallest (it's taller than wide) This dimension under the entire rear sight assembly. The problem is the 9mm latch mechanism block is very different. Taller by .113" longer by .361" with multiple cut-outs in it. So much for using the 10/22 part on my PCC. maybe........ |
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Posted: 1/29/2018 9:03:55 PM EST
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Seem to recall 2-3 inches at 25 yards. 25 yards! Apologies in advance if I misread. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
haven't read the latest issue of AR, but the reviews I've heard here have been pretty good in that department Apologies in advance if I misread. https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2018/1/2 |
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Posted: 1/29/2018 9:07:16 PM EST
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Seem to recall 2-3 inches at 25 yards. 25 yards! Apologies in advance if I misread. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
haven't read the latest issue of AR, but the reviews I've heard here have been pretty good in that department Apologies in advance if I misread. You're a tad off. The average spread was 1.67" at 50yds. The Ruger Security-9 pistol that they tested in the same article was 3.11" at 25yds, so you probably saw that table and thought it was the rifle. ETA: I see I was beaten above ETA 2: I think MAC reported tested his at 100yds earlier in this thread. I'm too lazy to check, though. |
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Posted: 1/29/2018 9:11:58 PM EST
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I suspect it's too long for the magwell Wiki shows 5.7x28 to have an OAL of 1.594" (9mm is 1.169) I measured the base bagwell (no mag specific adapter) at 1.930 is the room for the round? With .336" difference, i bet it can be done. Flimsy mags, or beefy sidewalls on it. It can be done i think.  Attached File |
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Posted: 1/29/2018 9:15:57 PM EST
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Red Lion's had a rotating railed forend for years now. Where have you been? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: This is very true, the SUB-2000 is very very hard to beat, its also lighter than the Ruger.
But, has anyone found a way to mount an optic so it swings in place over the bore? Or at least a system that is not gay? |
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Posted: 1/29/2018 9:16:57 PM EST
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Midwest Industries makes one that rotates the site away during folding and unfolding, then you rotate it back into locked position at 12 o'clock position. The 45 degree offset mounts aren't bad either. You can get it into a 12 o'clock position without the stock in an awkward position on your shoulder. If it craps out you can rotate back to using BUIS. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: This is very true, the SUB-2000 is very very hard to beat, its also lighter than the Ruger. But, has anyone found a way to mount an optic so it swings in place over the bore? Or at least a system that is not gay? The 45 degree offset mounts aren't bad either. You can get it into a 12 o'clock position without the stock in an awkward position on your shoulder. If it craps out you can rotate back to using BUIS. I do need a Gen 2..... |
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Posted: 1/29/2018 9:17:03 PM EST
[#42]
You guys are a bad influence. I ordered one.
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Posted: 1/29/2018 9:18:58 PM EST
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You guys are a bad influence. I ordered one. |
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Posted: 1/29/2018 9:21:02 PM EST
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A bad review in AR? |
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Posted: 1/29/2018 9:25:05 PM EST
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
you shall be pleased! |
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Posted: 1/29/2018 9:26:45 PM EST
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Don't know much about the red dot they have on there. But I'd wager you could put together a similar setup with a Bushnell TRS for close to what the Ruger retails for bone stock. I paid $429 shipped for my Kel-Tec from Palmetto State Armory. That gives you ~$200 worth give or take for accessories before you even arrive at the stock price of the Ruger. That being said, Kel-Tec is notorious for not producing enough to meet demand and the other offerings like the CZ Scorpion are much pricier. So I think Ruger may have found a comfortable place in the market with this one. It comes down to what the user wants it for. My own idea for a pistol caliber carbine is something meaner than a handgun that can score easier hits but still be able to keep concealed when not in use. With that particular role, it needs to be able to be put into action quickly. Even with my purpose, a Scorpion Evo pistol SBR'ed with a folding stock would fit the bill better, but I had to make some concessions due to cost. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I paid $429 shipped for my Kel-Tec from Palmetto State Armory. That gives you ~$200 worth give or take for accessories before you even arrive at the stock price of the Ruger. That being said, Kel-Tec is notorious for not producing enough to meet demand and the other offerings like the CZ Scorpion are much pricier. So I think Ruger may have found a comfortable place in the market with this one. It comes down to what the user wants it for. My own idea for a pistol caliber carbine is something meaner than a handgun that can score easier hits but still be able to keep concealed when not in use. With that particular role, it needs to be able to be put into action quickly. Even with my purpose, a Scorpion Evo pistol SBR'ed with a folding stock would fit the bill better, but I had to make some concessions due to cost. The Ruger is/was available on the internet for $478, free shipping. Adding the rotating handguard and/or twist mount for the red dot adds to the price of the Sub2k and makes it more expensive than the PC9. (Assuming both will be wearing red dots). If we’re going to increase price for sake of speed of deployment, as you noted, a Scorpion Evo carbine, and the Sig PCC (MCX?) are both faster to deploy and can be fired with the stock folded, but at a significantly higher price that the Ruger PC9. I dont own a Sub2k, but I like it and respect the engineering and though that went into it’s design and production. But for the money, I feel the PC9 is a better buy than the Sub2k. I do feel the Sub2k is a more innovative firearm, and nothing to look down on or make fun of. Basically, for the ultimate in concealability, people need to buy a Sub2k that takes Glock mags, and buy a folding Glock to go along with it. |
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Posted: 1/29/2018 9:31:43 PM EST
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The 22TCM/9mm combo guns that RIA sells are just a different barrel, keeps the same mag/slide/springs iirc |
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Posted: 1/29/2018 9:37:24 PM EST
[#48]
Went to my LGS 1-11, asked if he could order one. He went on his computer, saw one was available and ordered it. Came in on the 16th.
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Posted: 1/29/2018 9:46:02 PM EST
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
@CFletch Wiki shows 5.7x28 to have an OAL of 1.594" (9mm is 1.169) I measured the base bagwell (no mag specific adapter) at 1.930 is the room for the round? With .336" difference, i bet it can be done. Flimsy mags, or beefy sidewalls on it. It can be done i think. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/32438/PCC_Mag-423663.JPG Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I suspect it's too long for the magwell Wiki shows 5.7x28 to have an OAL of 1.594" (9mm is 1.169) I measured the base bagwell (no mag specific adapter) at 1.930 is the room for the round? With .336" difference, i bet it can be done. Flimsy mags, or beefy sidewalls on it. It can be done i think. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/32438/PCC_Mag-423663.JPG The only common mag for it is the FiveseveN pistol mag, and I seem to recall it being fairly long. But if it fits then it'd be an awesome option. I love me some 5.7mm |
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Posted: 1/29/2018 9:47:35 PM EST
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not sure that is true. My RIA pistol came with a 22tcm barrel, and a lighter spring for that round. Also came with a 9mm barrel and spring which is slightly stiffer. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The 22TCM/9mm combo guns that RIA sells are just a different barrel, keeps the same mag/slide/springs iirc |
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