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Posted: 3/14/2017 11:14:34 AM EST
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Free float is a huge deal. One can shift point of impact by up to 5moa at 100M. That means on top of 2-3moa ammo, you now have another 5moa to worry about depending on how you hold the rifle. Sling it, put it on a barricade, or use a hefty aggressive grip and you will no longer be hitting where you aim. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Coming from someone who owns a few of both FF and non-FF carbines I feel like being free floated isn't a big deal. Free float is a huge deal. One can shift point of impact by up to 5moa at 100M. That means on top of 2-3moa ammo, you now have another 5moa to worry about depending on how you hold the rifle. Sling it, put it on a barricade, or use a hefty aggressive grip and you will no longer be hitting where you aim. AK74's shooting 7n6 had a slightly smaller median dispersion than m16's shooting m855 for decades. We still kangz. |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 11:16:18 AM EST
[#2]
Fucking joglee HK thread.
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Posted: 3/14/2017 11:16:28 AM EST
[#3]
We have constantly updated our service rifle over the past 50 years when compared to others. Two round burst or duplex rounds could accomplish near the same thing the AK 12 recoil system does. The AK can still not do a rapid barrel change in the field it has to be sent to the depot. In practice we could just send new uppers. The AK just got a top rail system which i believe copies a US design, The AK 12 still offers nothing more than the AR . We have reached pretty much the max potentioal of powder burning small arms
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Posted: 3/14/2017 11:18:56 AM EST
[#4]
I have only this to say. Fake News. Wrong . And. your FIRED !!!! Damn the bullshit you read.
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Posted: 3/14/2017 11:18:58 AM EST
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is the dumbest fucking thing I think I've ever read on the internet. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
How far behind are we. What is out there to improve on the M4? The rail system? A free float rail is the difference between hitting and missing targets at 100M in combat. This is the dumbest fucking thing I think I've ever read on the internet. Maybe he's just a really shitty shot ? |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 11:19:21 AM EST
[#6]
I have only this to say. Fake News. Wrong . And. your FIRED !!!! Damn the bullshit you read.
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Posted: 3/14/2017 11:19:53 AM EST
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Until we face a nation with equal capabilities, yet also having far more accurate general issue rifles. Then we need to be able to do more than make noise, we will need an accurate rifle that can make hits on target. Pucker factor is a far bigger variable in a firefight than the inherent accuracy of the weapon. |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 11:20:02 AM EST
[#8]
With a ghetto ass sized comp and front sight all the way at the end of that pencil dick barrel I'm sure it can string together some good groups.
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Posted: 3/14/2017 11:23:23 AM EST
[#9]
The only way I can see 15moa shift (esp at 100m distances
 ) is if the barrel itself is laying on the barricade/support or if something is installed incorrectly.
And that's going to happen whether it's free float or not. To imply this is common is just ridiculous. |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 11:23:23 AM EST
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The AK12 is pretty much an Ak74, nothing new there. The AEK has an interesting balanced recoil system. They won't actually issue many. They said a few years ago that they'd adopt the AN-94 and look how that turned out. The An-94 is an overly complex POS. |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 11:23:32 AM EST
[#11]
Muh free float.
Muh misunderstanding of the phrase "first world". Muh friend on the interwebz sayz. |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 11:25:23 AM EST
[#12]
Lol
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Posted: 3/14/2017 11:26:24 AM EST
[#13]
OPs synopsis: Russia is now a more powerful military than the U.S. because they free floated the AK.
Reality: Russia doesn't even have a super carrier. OP the infantrymans rifle is rarely the real decider in war. |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 11:27:22 AM EST
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Free float is overrated. It's better than no free float but not that big of a deal. I believe the difference of moa is exaggerated. I'm a Double Distinguished, High Master rifle shooter. When I shoot as-issued matches, I add 3 moa for deflection caused by my sling. I only throw that out there because I can demonstrate it as fact for my rifle. The claim of 5 MOA is well within range. Training would go further than free floats. |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 11:27:39 AM EST
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The person I quoted has schooled me enough I believe what he says. If he says up to a 15moa shift is common with the KAC RAS, then he probably has the data to back it up, and a 10+ MOA shift in point of impact on a gun already running 1.5-2.5moa with M855A1 is easily a miss of the target every time. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I guess I better throw my M16A4 w/ RCO-ACOG and knights RAS rail in the garbage then. I mean, I hit 400m silhouettes all day long with it, but according to what you read on the internet there should be a 15moa shift due to my inferior weapon design. It was also the same rifle I had when I was in the Army and deployed to Iraq. The 15moa shift must have slipped my memory, and I must have forgotten about all those misses at 100m. You base all of this on something you read on the internet? Seriously man... The person I quoted has schooled me enough I believe what he says. If he says up to a 15moa shift is common with the KAC RAS, then he probably has the data to back it up, and a 10+ MOA shift in point of impact on a gun already running 1.5-2.5moa with M855A1 is easily a miss of the target every time. What has been YOUR actual experience? Have you personally experienced this 15moa shift? |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 11:29:16 AM EST
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OPs synopsis: Russia is now a more powerful military than the U.S. because they free floated the AK. Reality: Russia doesn't even have a FTFY |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 11:32:07 AM EST
[#17]
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Posted: 3/14/2017 11:33:58 AM EST
[#18]
I guess every single guy we've schwhacked in Afghanistan and Iraq with M4s and M16s w/ non-FF rails has simply been luck . . . I mean since our rifles are so inaccurate and all.
I've NEVER seen any kind of spread like that - yeah M855 isn't precision ammo but 15 MOA, what the fuck? And I love how the person making these claims has never shot said weapon under the conditions they're talking about. God I love this site. |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 11:34:59 AM EST
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm actually not trolling. This is from GS5414 where he explained to me the importance of a free floated rail. A 15MOA shift is significant, like life or death significant in war. |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 11:41:32 AM EST
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Free float is a huge deal. One can shift point of impact by up to 5moa at 100M. That means on top of 2-3moa ammo, you now have another 5moa to worry about depending on how you hold the rifle. Sling it, put it on a barricade, or use a hefty aggressive grip and you will no longer be hitting where you aim. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Coming from someone who owns a few of both FF and non-FF carbines I feel like being free floated isn't a big deal. Free float is a huge deal. One can shift point of impact by up to 5moa at 100M. That means on top of 2-3moa ammo, you now have another 5moa to worry about depending on how you hold the rifle. Sling it, put it on a barricade, or use a hefty aggressive grip and you will no longer be hitting where you aim. QUIT MOUNTING YOUR FUCKING ACOG/AIMPOINT TO YOUR FUCKING RAIL |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 11:41:57 AM EST
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Fucking joglee HK thread. Well its obvious we need to modernize to keep up with the Russians getting really fancy trash to replace their regular trash, and I can think of a few solutions to that: HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K,HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 11:42:13 AM EST
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm a Double Distinguished, High Master rifle shooter. When I shoot as-issued matches, I add 3 moa for deflection caused by my sling. I only throw that out there because I can demonstrate it as fact for my rifle. The claim of 5 MOA is well within range. Training would go further than free floats. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Free float is overrated. It's better than no free float but not that big of a deal. I believe the difference of moa is exaggerated. I'm a Double Distinguished, High Master rifle shooter. When I shoot as-issued matches, I add 3 moa for deflection caused by my sling. I only throw that out there because I can demonstrate it as fact for my rifle. The claim of 5 MOA is well within range. Training would go further than free floats. @AR-180 Shooting irons, correct? |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 11:42:42 AM EST
[#23]
OP misses the point that the SALVO project imparted upon us:
you cant miss enough to win, doesn't matter what you're issued. The issue isn't tech, the issue is getting a good enough bead on your target. emphasis on good enough. infantry aren't al DMR, and enemies don't stay still. A lot goes on in a two way range, and people way smarter/with better knowledge than most of us here have decided "screw it, FFing this infantry rifle is only marginally less worthless than updating our pistol, when most kills are from Arty/CAS/MG/Mortar fire". The US uses overwhelming fire superiority to good effect. The Russians don't have that, so they need to rely more on rifles. Individual kit shouldn't be viewed without a good idea of the holistic purpose and role. so FF the main infantry rifle is only slightly less worthless than a new pistol, and probably on par worthless as adopting a piston system for general issue (and I say that as a piston guy). |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 11:43:27 AM EST
[#24]
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Posted: 3/14/2017 11:43:53 AM EST
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm a Double Distinguished, High Master rifle shooter. When I shoot as-issued matches, I add 3 moa for deflection caused by my sling. I only throw that out there because I can demonstrate it as fact for my rifle. The claim of 5 MOA is well within range. Training would go further than free floats. And to get that 3 MOA you're putting a lot more tension on that sling than most would. As far as I know a properly tight hasty sling isn't that incredibly popular in a firefight. |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 11:44:28 AM EST
[#26]
All I know is me and the AEK-971 fucking wrecked shop in Battlefield Bad Company 2 online
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Posted: 3/14/2017 11:48:26 AM EST
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The person I quoted has schooled me enough I believe what he says. If he says up to a 15moa shift is common with the KAC RAS, then he probably has the data to back it up, and a 10+ MOA shift in point of impact on a gun already running 1.5-2.5moa with M855A1 is easily a miss of the target every time. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I guess I better throw my M16A4 w/ RCO-ACOG and knights RAS rail in the garbage then. I mean, I hit 400m silhouettes all day long with it, but according to what you read on the internet there should be a 15moa shift due to my inferior weapon design. It was also the same rifle I had when I was in the Army and deployed to Iraq. The 15moa shift must have slipped my memory, and I must have forgotten about all those misses at 100m. You base all of this on something you read on the internet? Seriously man... The person I quoted has schooled me enough I believe what he says. If he says up to a 15moa shift is common with the KAC RAS, then he probably has the data to back it up, and a 10+ MOA shift in point of impact on a gun already running 1.5-2.5moa with M855A1 is easily a miss of the target every time. Le sigh... Hey, dumbass, 15moa @ 500 meters is 86". The Marines laugh at "the person that schooled you." Curious, is this the guy that sits behind you in homeroom? |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 11:50:45 AM EST
[#28]
Quoted:
Looks like the AK-12 will go to the general army soldiers while Spetznas will be getting the AEK-971. Russia set to adopt both AK-12 and AEK-971. Personally, it's interesting to see every country modernizing their general issue rifles except us. The AK-12 features a free float barrel, which I believe this makes us the last first world country to employ a general issue rifle that still retains a non free floated barrel. This means Russia will now have a general issue rifle capable of far better accuracy and consistancy than our M4A1s, that can see up to 5MOA in point of aim and point of impact shift by sling, barricade, or foregrip pressure when exerted on the non free floated KAC RAS. We really need to modernize our general issue rifles as we are greatly falling behind in this category at this point. The US at this point needs a M4A1+ program more than ever now. No, we really don't. The money would be much better spent on training. |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 11:53:49 AM EST
[#29]
Guns of the trashcan.
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Posted: 3/14/2017 11:54:43 AM EST
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Free float is overrated. It's better than no free float but not that big of a deal. I believe the difference of moa is exaggerated. No it's not. |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 11:54:48 AM EST
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
@AR-180 Shooting irons, correct? Yes. |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 11:58:45 AM EST
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The rail system? A free float rail is the difference between hitting and missing targets at 100M in combat. Maybe you just suck at shooting. Or maybe I just have a magical Colt M4 barrel paired with an enchanted RIS because it seems to group better than 15moa |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 12:03:03 PM EST
[#33]
Only thing free floated in this thread is the OP's brain.
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Posted: 3/14/2017 12:06:18 PM EST
[#34]
i've never noticed a difference in accuracy shooting my non floated barrel using a sling even out to 400meters. You may get a .5 or 1.5 MOA shift but no way in hell you are getting a 5- 15 moa shift for using a sling.
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Posted: 3/14/2017 12:09:43 PM EST
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well its obvious we need to modernize to keep up with the Russians getting really fancy trash to replace their regular trash, and I can think of a few solutions to that: HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K,HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, HK416, M27 IAR, HK, Heckler and Koch, 416, HK, IAR, HK417, HK416, M27, H&K, You have a pretty mouth. I came. |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 12:09:56 PM EST
[#36]
I know Russia has a better economic outlook for 2017 but I still have a hard time believing they are going to be able to afford either of these two rifles in any significant numbers.
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Posted: 3/14/2017 12:10:21 PM EST
[#37]
Are our guys not hitting their targets at 100 yards out?
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Posted: 3/14/2017 12:14:10 PM EST
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Maybe you just suck at shooting. Or maybe I just have a magical Colt M4 barrel paired with an enchanted RIS because it seems to group better than 15moa The M4 with m855a1 is something like a 1.5-2.5moa gun. The issue is forces exerted upon the rail is imparted to the barrel, which can shift point of impact 15moa. So the gun will still shoot with decent groupings, they just won't be anywhere near where you are aiming. |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 12:14:10 PM EST
[#39]
Quoted:
Personally, it's interesting to see every country modernizing their general issue rifles except us. We really need to modernize our general issue rifles as we are greatly falling behind in this category at this point. 
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Posted: 3/14/2017 12:20:42 PM EST
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The rail system? A free float rail is the difference between hitting and missing targets at 100M in combat. 2. Stop parroting space shuttle door gunning BS. 3. Stop posting BS on here. |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 12:20:48 PM EST
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The M4 with m855a1 is something like a 1.5-2.5moa gun. The issue is forces exerted upon the rail is imparted to the barrel, which can shift point of impact 15moa. So the gun will still shoot with decent groupings, they just won't be anywhere near where you are aiming. And you have personally experienced this, right? |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 12:22:13 PM EST
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Personally, it's interesting to see every country modernizing their general issue rifles except us. We really need to modernize our general issue rifles as we are greatly falling behind in this category at this point. This is called "affirming the consequent" I believe.
Q. Therefore, P. |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 12:22:49 PM EST
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Are our guys not hitting their targets at 100 yards out? I have a bridge to sell you then 
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Posted: 3/14/2017 12:24:24 PM EST
[#44]
How much is Russia paying you to post here?
Is it in roubles, or vodka? |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 12:28:17 PM EST
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
@AR-180 Shooting irons, correct? Yes. @AR-180 what shift would you expect shooting the same setup with an AIMPOINT or ACOG on the receiver? (honest question) |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 12:30:00 PM EST
[#46]
I am way behind the times I guess, but I don't see the need for every MK I, Mod O regular GI to have a free floated barrel.
As for the Russians, are they going to scrap the tons of ammo they already have and produce match quality ammo for those new, free-floated AK's? |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 12:30:06 PM EST
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
1. Stop mounting your optics to the rail. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The rail system? A free float rail is the difference between hitting and missing targets at 100M in combat. Freaking thank you. |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 12:32:08 PM EST
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Free float is a huge deal. One can shift point of impact by up to 5moa at 100M. That means on top of 2-3moa ammo, you now have another 5moa to worry about depending on how you hold the rifle. Sling it, put it on a barricade, or use a hefty aggressive grip and you will no longer be hitting where you aim. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Coming from someone who owns a few of both FF and non-FF carbines I feel like being free floated isn't a big deal. Free float is a huge deal. One can shift point of impact by up to 5moa at 100M. That means on top of 2-3moa ammo, you now have another 5moa to worry about depending on how you hold the rifle. Sling it, put it on a barricade, or use a hefty aggressive grip and you will no longer be hitting where you aim. You mean to tell me, that when I do my rifle qualification, I shoot unsupported at 100 yards and groupa fine, but when I move to 500 yards in the prone position with a tight sling, and all I had to do is adjust my elevation, I'm theoretically not hitting the target even though I get 10/10 in the black???? |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 12:32:28 PM EST
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The M4 with m855a1 is something like a 1.5-2.5moa gun. The issue is forces exerted upon the rail is imparted to the barrel, which can shift point of impact 15moa. So the gun will still shoot with decent groupings, they just won't be anywhere near where you are aiming. Have they solved the poorly constructed, extremely wobbly piston system on the AK12 that throws ammo all over the world? I don't care if its freefloated, their pistons are improperly designed for accuracy. |
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Posted: 3/14/2017 12:32:50 PM EST
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well, it's true. We gravely need a PiP of the M4A1, otherwise we will be sorely outclassed should we face any modern nation. Free float barrels are incredibly important in this day and age, and we hamstring ourselves by employing the KAC RAS against any other modern military. Those guys that trained in the early part of the last century to hit man-sized targets at 600-1000m w/ open sighted bolt action rifles must have had no idea that their rifles were not capable of accuracy. Stupid thread is stupid. |
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