According to the OP, no one has ever qualified with an M4 on a range.

Decades of qual ranges pencil whipped. Worse than our lack of capability with small arms, is our military's decades long lack of integrity.

Im not exaggerating when i say my old 7" troy handguard was lighter than the OEM plastic handguard + delta ring on my M&P ~ 5 years ago.

Now you can go significantly lighter. I.e. KMRs.

Stop

While I agree with you, I also wonder why they don't just do it.

I'm pretty sure you meant 6.5lb carbines that a bunch of stuff gets mounted to

Is this one of those threads where OP tries to defend Thermopylae?

I think he got that by weighing an AK and being sarcastic.

Because everything the conventional side uses that mounts to the rails are for STANAG 1913 and quads tend to be heavy once you're past the carbine length. The same FF would have to be M203 or M320 compatible as well. Sure, you could do something like the bolt on rails like the now discontinued DD MFR, but can those bolt on's handle the recoil of the high-low system enough to not be a concern?

And no, the answer is not to buy mounts to mount a 1913 attachment.  Rail sections is cheaper and more cost effective if they were to do that.

This is a case of just because I like it and want them to have it, doesn't mean it's in the best interests for the military.

I cannot believe this thread is still going.  This thread is bad and OP should feel bad for starting it.  Suicide just may be the only way to redeem yourself.  

The average soldier would see less benefit from a free float rail than they would from more range time and instruction on general marksmanship.  If I can qualify with wobbly irons or a CCO that keeps blinking out, then the rifle is accurate enough for anybody.  And nobody does that tight sling b.s., it is hard enough to move and shoot with armor on without having to be constrained by a rediculously tight sling.

Nice reply. Was hoping this thread would be full of more responses like this rather than the "M4 is a 15 MOA rifle" posts. RATNIK seems to be a general upgrade of infantry gear, with the rifles only being part of it. So if I understood you correctly:

RATNIK  upgrade kit = standard issue.
"New" AK-12 = limited issue and different from the RATNIK kit, but functionally similar. These are new built, but are still standard AKs underneath.

Seems logical. I can see them buying a number of these and then adopting an entirely new design 5 or so years from now. That is what they are doing for other types of equipment. For example, they're upgrading older T-72Bs to the B3 standard, which brings them roughly up to par with a factory built T-90 or T-90A in some areas. At the same time they are buying the all new T-14. Likewise, they have bought some Su-35s, are upgrading older Su-27s to the SM2 standard and buying the replacement T-50 PAK FA. Same with the MIG-29; buying new MIG-35s while actively designing a replacement.

Seems to be what Russia is doing in general. A mix of upgrading old equipment, building new variations of older designs with improvements from the factory while also buying entirely new designs or developing them. So I can't be sure, but I assume the AK-12 was seen as sub par, hence RATNIK upgrade kits to hold over until a new design comes out. I could be wrong though.

Do you happen to know what stock this is?



Looks like an AK-107. Rear looks similar to the "new" AK-12. Wonder if they're compatible with the older AK-74M.

OP is tarded

Is OP 15 years old?

I'm not sure if you're implying than an M4 is less precise than an AK, that US ball ammo is less precise than Russian ammo, or if you're just confused.

You also missed the joke on Criedmoor.

You are probably right about them adopting an upgrade for now while they wait for the completely new design coming from Kalashnikov Concern. Kalashnikov Concern is currently developing the "MA Compact Assault rifle" and "SVK Marksman's Rifle", which look to be completely new rifles that aren't based on the AK platform. Perhaps they are planning to consider adopting a larger carbine sized version of the MA, assuming it's not complete vaporware.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/09/10/kalashnikov-concerns-new-ma-compact-assault-rifle-svk-marksmans-rifle-via-modern-firearms/

http://modernfirearms.net/assault/rus/ma-e.html+
http://modernfirearms.net/sniper/sniper-rifles/rus/svk-e.html

Oh, the Creedmoor. I know what that is. I don't know about that other one, the Creedmoore, but I thought I'd ask since it seems to come up a lot.

Is it me or is that a coffin may in that AKWHATEVER?.

Of course the Russians needed to update the AK.

The AR15/M16 was ahead of its time when adopted.

I think it is.

Bro behind him is missing something real important out of that bolt gun.

Well, one of us is certainly confused.

I wasn't addressing the accuracy or lack thereof in either system. Just doing math. Shitty ammo may be shitty ammo, but a more accurate rifle partially negates the overall accuracy hit you get from it while a less accurate rifle exacerbates it.

Let me break it down. Bad + Bad = BAD. Bad + Okay = meh. Okay + Okay = Okay. Got it? Good.

I don't really give a shit about the Creedmoor joke. I took the question seriously and answered it seriously. If it was a joke, it wasn't a very good one, and, as such, should have been labeled somehow. Comedy isn't for everyone, and unfunny people should find other hobbies.

I think that other one is a plumbing joint.



Okay, while I know that I'm in the minority in thinking the AK is a good looking gun, THAT fucker there is the fugliest thing I've seen this year!

What???? FF rails are not incredibly important. The difference is very small.

Yes, if given the choice,  I'd take a FF rail. But it won't really hurt your shooting without one. 

Big mistake for the Russians IMO. Let's see how those weapons do in Siberian winters.

If it was an HK reverse keymod rail it would be accurate out to 2,000yds easy.

I'm going to say yea, pretty much.

I skipped the last few pages after skimming the rest after the 2nd call out, did the op ever answer if he's seen it first hand or is it just what he's read? I know that getting any poi move is harder on the shorter M4 than the pencil barrel A1's and that I have never seen, I've pulled the sling so tight it was cutting off blood flow, and still never pulled 12 moa, I know I've moved it a little but if any thing a couple of moa, but it was nothing that the second shot didn't get corrected when you see the impact of the first. Sure a free float is nice, I have both, I know I would not hesitate to take either if shtf. Personally I like the heavier SOCOM barrel, but it's not because of the accuracy as much as holding a tighter zero when heated.

I've seen barrel deflection cause misses when shooters rest the end of their barrel on a barricade. However, I've never seen a problem when they rest the non-FF handguard on anything. 

I've also seen slings cause a POI shift during Highpower shooting, but the way Highpower shooters sling up exerts a lot more pressure than a soldier would. Plus, the POI shift isn't that drastic--like from the 10 ring to the 8 ring. Enough for them to attach the sling to the FF tube or at least dial in a few click of windage to stay in the 10 ring, but they're not missing the target. 

Don't tell the op that.

What the fuck? That has got to be the stupidest load of horseshit I have EVER heard, in relation to firearms.

Out of a possible 5 derps, that scores a fucking 12

No kidding. That's one of the easiest to hit at the pop up qualifications. Even those that suck because they refuse to wear glasses and cannot see past 200 or just suck at shooting are nailing the 100 all the time and all day if need be.

Dude, 100m is FAAAAAAR!!!! The target is tiny at those distances

Still in the Army unlike you.

Which, itself, is clearly the Vietnamese knock-off of 6.5mm Creedmoor, the actual cartridge.

What in the fuck is going on in here?

Derp

Dipe

Deep

Pick your order, it's all there.

An HK Fanboi is perpetuating myths.

Problem noted. Part sent from depot after logged in chain of supply, will arrive along with sock issue, we mean it this time. Estimated arrival at local Corps depot around Oktober 2021.

Signed,
General L.E. Gudinov, Red Army Army of the Russian Federation Inspectorate of Things and Stuffs

OP couldn't hit anybody when he was in combat and blames not having free float.

I highly doubt OP was ever in combat.

And for some reason now I'm suddenly in the mood to re-watch Deutschland '83.

I was shooting high power with a stock 6920 with an M1907 sling.  Actually I didn't think there was a POI shift from the sling at all.

Something I said a year ago, which oddly enough is still true...because it's been true for almost 100 years:

That has always been their MO. Since the fall of the USSR they're further hampered by actually having to actually pay for the shit they design, which means they have to export them for real money instead of just giving them away by the  CONEX load to "Fraternal Brothers" to beta test for them. Unfortunately for the Russians Western equipment, in almost every category, has proven itself to be superior to comparable Russian equipment in actual combat; meaning that sales are down even when the Russians can quote a much lower price on some similar items.

The Russians love to trot out AK-XXX variants to show they still got it, but the fact remains that their newest and most "groundbreaking" AK designs usually are actually produced in numbers so low that even a Russian factory worker 10 minutes from shift change on a Friday night can count to. Every time you see an announcement that the Russian Army is adopting a new one what it really means is that a couple companies of the VVS and/or MVD are getting them while the vast majority of the Russian Army is still soldiering on with AK-74s that came off the assembly line when A Flock of Seagulls was still on the Top 40 charts. At best some of what we used to classify as Cat A units will have some upgrade kits and bolt-ons; but the Russian Army as a whole isn't going to get AK-Whatever-The-Fuck-Number-Sounds-Impressive-Today anytime soon, or most likely, ever.

The Russians make some very good GPMGs and SAMs but other than that all of their "groundbreaking" equipment rollouts are either not very groundbreaking at all or is actually fielded in such small numbers that their impact on overall Russian military strength is negligible at best and laughable at worst. Even the stuff that is decent to very good in quality still has to deal with Russian logistics and maintenance cycles, which even when meeting mandated levels and schedules is...lacking, on a good day.

tl/dr version: Russia's new AKs aren't gonna be a game-changer for the Russian Army even if they ever actually issue them to more than 300 guys to carry in a parade.

My guess is OP is 12.

Stop posting stupid shit.

Not in the least.

No............

Oh I don't underestimate them, but far too many people overestimate their capabilities. Their disinformation/PR department is top notch and some of the people that buy into it wholesale (including some people in our government and/or military that really should know better) are the guys I'd call first if I came up with some manner of new and exciting ponzi scheme.

Russians have a certain way doing "military stuff" that is completely different to how we'd do it, and even though it's not incomprehensible to an outsider one has to be careful to (and I'm shamelessly ripping off Firefox here) "Think in Russian" when dealing with them when it comes to military/strategic matters. For example, there's a reason they see our SAM and missile defense units in Poland and the Baltics as "offensive weapons" and if you "think in Russian" you understand why. To a Westerner it's obvious those are defensive weapons, to a Russian...not so much, because of how they'd use that capability. The same thing goes for NATO expansion, "meddling in the near abroad", and so on and so forth.

They are very capable in some areas, but anyone suggesting that the Russian Army would be tearing us up in a conventional fight (especially based on the small arms they'd be carrying) either hasn't been paying attention to how things really work or really should check out my newest money making venture that they can get in on the ground floor right now, but remember it's a limited time offer!