[ARCHIVED THREAD] - SIG “ The P320. It ends today.” (Page 128 of 142)
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Quoted: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/563710/IMG_1259-3499980.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/563710/IMG_1258-3432540.jpg The grip angle “problem” is a delusion used as an excuse. I get the point you're trying to make, but nobody who has fired both thinks that Glocks present like a 1911. It isn't just the angle or the hump, the web of the hand sits higher too. Presentation among 1911, CZ-75, Beretta 90s, etc... are all pretty close to one another. Not so with Glock. |
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Quoted: To me the main benefit is that the plastic can be replaced as a repair item while retaining the frame. That’s nice, especially for something put through hard use. I’ve had a Glock get chewed on by some kind of rodent before. Would be cool to be able to just swap the plastic out. I’ve seen photos online of Glocks chewed up by dogs. It’s weird, but strange things happen and at the end of the day plastic isn’t immune from the world harming it. Is that really worth the trouble? I guess it doesn’t hurt if you aren’t losing anything else in the process. I think the RXM is quite nice. I wish they made a normal Glock grip for it instead of the funky broom handle in comes with. Fair enough. I don't have a dog (although the cat can certainly tear stuff up!), but I've heard about it enough that I can see why that'd be consideration. |
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Quoted: I get the point you're trying to make, but nobody who has fired both thinks that Glocks present like a 1911. It isn't just the angle or the hump, the web of the hand sits higher too. Presentation among 1911, CZ-75, Beretta 90s, etc... are all pretty close to one another. Not so with Glock. Quoted: Quoted: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/563710/IMG_1259-3499980.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/563710/IMG_1258-3432540.jpg The grip angle “problem” is a delusion used as an excuse. I get the point you're trying to make, but nobody who has fired both thinks that Glocks present like a 1911. It isn't just the angle or the hump, the web of the hand sits higher too. Presentation among 1911, CZ-75, Beretta 90s, etc... are all pretty close to one another. Not so with Glock. I agree completely. Grip angle is not a "problem" but can influence presentation. I've found changing the backstrap on a pistol can nudge it from needing a small adjustment to get the sights aligned to having them aligned on presentation. While I agree with the points being made about guns with stock "Glock-style triggers" having fine/decent/good trigger pulls (I'm not picky about triggers myself), dedicated target pistols and rifles with optimized target triggers exist for a reason-- not all triggers are created equal. |
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Quoted: I agree completely. Grip angle is not a "problem" but can influence presentation. I've found changing the backstrap on a pistol can nudge it from needing a small adjustment to get the sights aligned to having them aligned on presentation. |
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Quoted: I get the point you're trying to make, but nobody who has fired both thinks that Glocks present like a 1911. It isn't just the angle or the hump, the web of the hand sits higher too. Presentation among 1911, CZ-75, Beretta 90s, etc... are all pretty close to one another. Not so with Glock. Most other guns also deviate slightly in grip angle from a 1911 or 1911a1. It just doesn’t matter. |
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Quoted: I’m not claiming it is identical. Just that the difference is so slight as to be irrelevant. It is within the range that the human wrist and brain can easily accommodate. You can’t even see a difference in angle with the pictures of them on top of each other….how significant could it be? Most other guns also deviate slightly in grip angle from a 1911 or 1911a1. It just doesn’t matter. No, those I listed are slight; the Glock is substantially different. Which begs the question of why I would choose Glock over dozens of other handguns. |
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Quoted: No, those I listed are slight; the Glock is substantially different. Which begs the question of why I would choose Glock over dozens of other handguns. Quoted: Quoted: I’m not claiming it is identical. Just that the difference is so slight as to be irrelevant. It is within the range that the human wrist and brain can easily accommodate. You can’t even see a difference in angle with the pictures of them on top of each other….how significant could it be? Most other guns also deviate slightly in grip angle from a 1911 or 1911a1. It just doesn’t matter. No, those I listed are slight; the Glock is substantially different. Which begs the question of why I would choose Glock over dozens of other handguns. |
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Quoted: This is true of any handgun. Just practice with whichever one you need to be proficient with instead of rotating through a bunch of shit. Well, all of my handguns have a grip angle that is very close to that of (or the same grip angle as) a 1911, so it really is a non-issue for me. |
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I have a feeling the people at Sig are so retarded, she'd actually make the average IQ of the company increase by 2 points. |
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Quoted: I have a feeling the people at Sig are so retarded, she'd actually make the average IQ of the company increase by 2 points. Quoted: I have a feeling the people at Sig are so retarded, she'd actually make the average IQ of the company increase by 2 points. I don't think they're stupid. I think they've done the math & think they're gonna get away w/ what Remington & Taurus did not. |
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Quoted: It hasn't been replicated ONCE. Everyone and their mother are trying to get the P320 to fire on it's own yet NO ONE has done it. You sir, and the rest of the rabid hive mind group incapable of individual thought who just hop on the bandwagon are the ones who lack critical thinking. Quoted: Quoted: For someone who claimed *others* lack critical thinking skills…. You sir, and the rest of the rabid hive mind group incapable of individual thought who just hop on the bandwagon are the ones who lack critical thinking. It's just that the rabid hive-mind group incapavble of individual thought hop onto the bandwagon of "Oh but those replications don't count because *I don't want them to.*  Sig P320 Accidental Discharge Compilation It's being replicated and happening. Some just hide their eyes from that and treat it as taboo. |
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Quoted: Perhaps there could also be a special type of lubricant (or friction modifier, more accurately) that could be applied to the sear area to make it go longer before shooting off. Epoxy between the sear and striker leg?  (That is what's called a joke, if you need to hear that, please remove the rod from your back) |
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Ice dropping Sig for Glock? Small contract https://apfs-cloud.dhs.gov/record/71201/public-print/ |
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Quoted: It has. Repeatedly. It's just that the rabid hive-mind group incapavble of individual thought hop onto the bandwagon of "Oh but those replications don't count because *I don't want them to.*  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b33AXiuytn0It's being replicated and happening. Some just hide their eyes from that and treat it as taboo. |
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Good deal for a range gun. Just rack it when you're ready to shoot and it should be safe.
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That seems expensive… surplus, .40 S&W, SIG, and a P320? That poor pistol absolutely lost the genetic lottery. |
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He's not talking about sigs. He's talking about triggers and sears and geometry.  Triggers and what they actually are: Anvil 0150 |
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What distributor is that advertisement from? |
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Quoted: That seems expensive… surplus, .40 S&W, SIG, and a P320? That poor pistol absolutely lost the genetic lottery. Quoted: That seems expensive… surplus, .40 S&W, SIG, and a P320? That poor pistol absolutely lost the genetic lottery. All of those things, and it’s not optics ready. There are so many better options at that price point including new guns, other .40s, etc. Hell, the P320 market is so soft you can probably get a nice 9mm safe queen with an optics cut for that. |
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Quoted: Ice dropping Sig for Glock? Small contract https://apfs-cloud.dhs.gov/record/71201/public-print/ So that’s where all the COAs are going. |
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Quoted: Fair enough. I don't have a dog (although the cat can certainly tear stuff up!), but I've heard about it enough that I can see why that'd be consideration. I feel like a competent gun owner wouldn’t leave a gun where a dog can grab it and chew on it, but maybe that’s just me. |
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Quoted: I feel like a competent gun owner wouldn’t leave a gun where a dog can grab it and chew on it, but maybe that’s just me. Quoted: Quoted: Fair enough. I don't have a dog (although the cat can certainly tear stuff up!), but I've heard about it enough that I can see why that'd be consideration. I feel like a competent gun owner wouldn’t leave a gun where a dog can grab it and chew on it, but maybe that’s just me. You don't have a gun stashed in the dog house? Why do you think people buy HiPoints? |
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Quoted: You don't have a gun stashed in the dog house? Why do you think people buy HiPoints? Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Fair enough. I don't have a dog (although the cat can certainly tear stuff up!), but I've heard about it enough that I can see why that'd be consideration. I feel like a competent gun owner wouldn’t leave a gun where a dog can grab it and chew on it, but maybe that’s just me. You don't have a gun stashed in the dog house? Why do you think people buy HiPoints? |
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Quoted: I feel like a competent gun owner wouldn’t leave a gun where a dog can grab it and chew on it, but maybe that’s just me. Quoted: Quoted: Fair enough. I don't have a dog (although the cat can certainly tear stuff up!), but I've heard about it enough that I can see why that'd be consideration. I feel like a competent gun owner wouldn’t leave a gun where a dog can grab it and chew on it, but maybe that’s just me. Yeah… I definitely don’t consider it a major problem. Mostly pointing it out as being the only practical benefit of a “modular” pistol. |
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Quoted: Yeah… I definitely don’t consider it a major problem. Mostly pointing it out as being the only practical benefit of a “modular” pistol. Dogs chewing on guns isn't the only thing that leads to frame damage. The last M9 I was issued had a trigger guard worn so thin on the bottom it was almost sharp, just from years of handling. The lanyard loop was worn almost through. The front of the dustcover had beveled itself through years of holstering. With a modular frame all that would have been easy and cheap to repair; without one only the lanyard loop was conceivably repairable. I think you guys also tend to understate the usefulness of being able to reconfigure a firearm. The AR-15 has stuck around in military service for so long primarily because the design is reconfigurable and upgradeable; a good modular frame design would have the potential for a similar long service life as it goes through Ax variations. |
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Quoted: Yeah… I definitely don’t consider it a major problem. Mostly pointing it out as being the only practical benefit of a “modular” pistol. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Fair enough. I don't have a dog (although the cat can certainly tear stuff up!), but I've heard about it enough that I can see why that'd be consideration. I feel like a competent gun owner wouldn’t leave a gun where a dog can grab it and chew on it, but maybe that’s just me. Yeah… I definitely don’t consider it a major problem. Mostly pointing it out as being the only practical benefit of a “modular” pistol. It seems that it may be a big benefit for large organizations with hundreds to thousands of the same pistols and variants that can easily be swapped around. As an individual dealing with a Communist state that likes to outlaw "guns" but grandfather older stuff... I can see a benefit there too. |
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Quoted: I feel like a competent gun owner wouldn’t leave a gun where a dog can grab it and chew on it, but maybe that’s just me. Quoted: Quoted: Fair enough. I don't have a dog (although the cat can certainly tear stuff up!), but I've heard about it enough that I can see why that'd be consideration. I feel like a competent gun owner wouldn’t leave a gun where a dog can grab it and chew on it, but maybe that’s just me. I think (hope) most people would agree with following safe storage practices for the general safety/liability/legal/etc. reasons, which offers the additional benefit of preventing the above scenario in the first place; but I think the original point being made was that polymer frame damage caused by any means is more of a hassle to have repaired/replaced than polymer grip module damage. So, once again, I was just saying that I can see the logic and the thinking behind it. Nothing more, nothing less. |
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Quoted: It seems that it may be a big benefit for large organizations with hundreds to thousands of the same pistols and variants that can easily be swapped around. As an individual dealing with a Communist state that likes to outlaw "guns" but grandfather older stuff... I can see a benefit there too. Well, think about all of the different people staffed by those large organizations and how they could be trying to accommodate the 5th percentile female and 95th percentile male. The average gun owner does not worry about that. They find one that fits their hand and call it a day unless they want something really custom. |
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Quoted: As an individual dealing with a Communist state that likes to outlaw "guns" but grandfather older stuff... I can see a benefit there too. Nothing is safe from gungrabbers |
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Quoted: Amateurs argue tools Exactly right. The human hand has incredible dexterity. In the animal world it is the most function appendage of all mammals. Our thumbs and triple jointed fingers mean we can grip anything from a shovel handle to a super complex drone or R/C remote, and make them all work. Nobody is making custom shovel handles or R/C remotes, we all use the same ones. It's only really in the pistol world where we see all of this cusomisation. I think it has more to do with commerce than function. I can shoot a Glock just as well as I can shoot a 1911. 50 rounds in and I am good. So shoot what you like. |
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Quoted: glock is considered one of the safetest pistols in existance and has been on kalifornias roster since the beginning. Now they're trying to ban it. Nothing is safe from gungrabbers Quoted: Quoted: As an individual dealing with a Communist state that likes to outlaw "guns" but grandfather older stuff... I can see a benefit there too. Nothing is safe from gungrabbers True. But what I've been taught by the State of Colorado, is that what you have on hand is the safest thing. Here and in other states, they are playing the long game of targeting what is legal to sell first. Then they start to go after possession a decade or so down the road. If the guns you have on hand are modular with robust spare parts supply online... You and yours are good for a long time. They are doing this with ARs. Theoretically, a guy with a bunch of stripped lowers is in good shape and can avoid the gun grabber laws and build whatever he wants. Perhaps they will try to ban online sales of spare parts along with the sale of the actual guns. That's TBD. For now, they've instituted a FOIA card type scheme starting next year, that applies to the actual firearm sales. In this pistol example, imagine they want to ban mag fed semi auto handguns. A cracked Glock frame is potentially a big deal for that owner. A cracked RXM frame, not as much. Odds would be good that you could get one shipped to your house, and the Glock frame is unobtanium. Or you could just pick up a new RXM frame when traveling to another state. |
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Quoted: Exactly right. The human hand has incredible dexterity. In the animal world it is the most function appendage of all mammals. Our thumbs and triple jointed fingers mean we can grip anything from a shovel handle to a super complex drone or R/C remote, and make them all work. Nobody is making custom shovel handles or R/C remotes, we all use the same ones. It's only really in the pistol world where we see all of this cusomisation. I think it has more to do with commerce than function. I can shoot a Glock just as well as I can shoot a 1911. 50 rounds in and I am good. So shoot what you like. I thought that too until I shot a wider array of pistols and shotguns on a timer. Really good ergonomics that work with your specific anatomy is very helpful. The 320 should actually shoot terribly - it has a horrific design, but it's actually pretty okay due to the ergonomics. Some of that is due to modularity, and some of it is due to rapid iteration by Sig. The idea of a gen 6 glock with modular grips and triggers is pretty exciting. |
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Quoted: Exactly right. The human hand has incredible dexterity. In the animal world it is the most function appendage of all mammals. Our thumbs and triple jointed fingers mean we can grip anything from a shovel handle to a super complex drone or R/C remote, and make them all work. Nobody is making custom shovel handles or R/C remotes, we all use the same ones. It's only really in the pistol world where we see all of this cusomisation. I think it has more to do with commerce than function. I can shoot a Glock just as well as I can shoot a 1911. 50 rounds in and I am good. So shoot what you like. Quoted: Quoted: Amateurs argue tools Exactly right. The human hand has incredible dexterity. In the animal world it is the most function appendage of all mammals. Our thumbs and triple jointed fingers mean we can grip anything from a shovel handle to a super complex drone or R/C remote, and make them all work. Nobody is making custom shovel handles or R/C remotes, we all use the same ones. It's only really in the pistol world where we see all of this cusomisation. I think it has more to do with commerce than function. I can shoot a Glock just as well as I can shoot a 1911. 50 rounds in and I am good. So shoot what you like. I always got a kick out of it when some amateur would come into the shop, ask to see a pistol, then meticulously palpate it. Rub their hand around the grip. Squeeze, let go, squeeze again. Look off at the ceiling to I guess feel it even more carefully. “Gotta make sure it feels good in my hand.” I can’t recall ever handling a pistol that doesn’t just feel like I’m holding some metal/plastic/wood but maybe I’m just not sufficiently perceptive. |
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Quoted: Exactly right. The human hand has incredible dexterity. In the animal world it is the most function appendage of all mammals. Our thumbs and triple jointed fingers mean we can grip anything from a shovel handle to a super complex drone or R/C remote, and make them all work. Nobody is making custom shovel handles or R/C remotes, we all use the same ones. It's only really in the pistol world where we see all of this cusomisation. I think it has more to do with commerce than function. I can shoot a Glock just as well as I can shoot a 1911. 50 rounds in and I am good. So shoot what you like. Pruners come in different handle sizes. People adjust the grips on their golf clubs, tennis rackets, and hockey sticks. Bicycle and motorcycle grips are available in different diameters and brake and clutch levers are adjustable for reach and height. High end drone controllers have adjustable ergos and adjustable stick tension. |
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Quoted: Exactly right. The human hand has incredible dexterity. In the animal world it is the most function appendage of all mammals. Our thumbs and triple jointed fingers mean we can grip anything from a shovel handle to a super complex drone or R/C remote, and make them all work. Nobody is making custom shovel handles or R/C remotes, we all use the same ones. It's only really in the pistol world where we see all of this cusomisation. I think it has more to do with commerce than function. I can shoot a Glock just as well as I can shoot a 1911. 50 rounds in and I am good. So shoot what you like. Quoted: Quoted: Amateurs argue tools Exactly right. The human hand has incredible dexterity. In the animal world it is the most function appendage of all mammals. Our thumbs and triple jointed fingers mean we can grip anything from a shovel handle to a super complex drone or R/C remote, and make them all work. Nobody is making custom shovel handles or R/C remotes, we all use the same ones. It's only really in the pistol world where we see all of this cusomisation. I think it has more to do with commerce than function. I can shoot a Glock just as well as I can shoot a 1911. 50 rounds in and I am good. So shoot what you like. No one ever digs a hole with the adrenaline and pressure of a life or death situation where fractions of seconds matter. The hole isn't a moving target. You don't have to quickly line up multiple planes of visuals (sights and target) with a shovel, like you do a pistol. A shovel is almost exclusively operated from the standing position, in a well established balanced position... Pistols, not so much. There's a ton of variety in shovels, and a decent amount of different length and girth handles, different materials, some with different shapes. Sure the vast majority are the standard old wood handle... No different than the vast majority of pistols are a standard Glock or similar. As for comparing remotes, that's a lot different too. Almost exclusively operated with thumbs, using both hands at the same time. A very apples to oranges comparison. The rifle world, particularly the fighting platforms, have tons of customization as well. As much or more than pistols. There's tons of (way more expensive) customization in the auto world, where things are life and death stakes, multi-plane vision requirements, and quickly moving. |
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Quoted: No one ever digs a hole with the adrenaline and pressure of a life or death situation where fractions of seconds matter. The hole isn't a moving target. You don't have to quickly line up multiple planes of visuals (sights and target) with a shovel, like you do a pistol. A shovel is almost exclusively operated from the standing position, in a well established balanced position... Pistols, not so much. There's a ton of variety in shovels, and a decent amount of different length and girth handles, different materials, some with different shapes. Sure the vast majority are the standard old wood handle... No different than the vast majority of pistols are a standard Glock or similar. As for comparing remotes, that's a lot different too. Almost exclusively operated with thumbs, using both hands at the same time. A very apples to oranges comparison. The rifle world, particularly the fighting platforms, have tons of customization as well. As much or more than pistols. There's tons of (way more expensive) customization in the auto world, where things are life and death stakes, multi-plane vision requirements, and quickly moving. I was about to point that out about the variety of shovels and other similar tools-- the more modern designs with modern materials are noticeably more comfortable to use than the older/cheaper ones. |
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Quoted: I thought that too until I shot a wider array of pistols and shotguns on a timer. Really good ergonomics that work with your specific anatomy is very helpful. For me it's about range time and training. I can be decent with a 1911 platform. When I pull it out of a holster quickly and present naturally, it's pointed at the target. A Glock not so much. I have to train a bit for the presentation for the Glock grip. It's not a big deal, just a bit different. Personally, I don't see the grip making any practical difference in the real world, for even a minimally trained individual. Maybe a slight advantage in competition, but even there, as far as I can tell, gun weight, capacity and trigger are usually the big differences between the classes. |
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Quoted: For me it's about range time and training. I can be decent with a 1911 platform. When I pull it out of a holster quickly and present naturally, it's pointed at the target. A Glock not so much. I have to train a bit for the presentation for the Glock grip. It's not a big deal, just a bit different. Personally, I don't see the grip making any practical difference in the real world, for even a minimally trained individual. Maybe a slight advantage in competition, but even there, as far as I can tell, gun weight, capacity and trigger are usually the big differences between the classes. As long as you're somewhere in the fat part of the bell curve adjusting the grip can help but won't make a huge difference. Get out towards the ends and it can make a huge difference. The M9 was problematic for people with especially small hands, for example. |
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Quoted: Has anyone been able to determine if assembling the gun incorrectly, not using the slide stop, has contributed to the problem? I haven't heard that's the case in any of the incidents we've seen yet. I'd find it very unlikely in any of the law enforcement cases. Police departments are usually pretty strict about any kind of modifications to issued weapons. The P320 hasn't been out long enough for normal police use (qualification a couple times a year) to wear out any parts. In the MSP incident in particular, that gun had been issued within the last year before the incident. I found it interesting that YouTubers were able to induce failures by swapping in incorrect parts, but I don't think that's what's happening. Incorrect reassembly (assembling like a Glock) was another potential cause. But again, in many of the videos we see the incidents are happening on the range, after being shot and reholstered. |
New gray guns video, not sure what it is supposed to prove. P320 Testing - FBI Report & Striker Safety Lock Test |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - SIG “ The P320. It ends today.” (Page 128 of 142)
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