[ARCHIVED THREAD] - SIG “ The P320. It ends today.” (Page 129 of 142)
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Quoted: New gray guns video, not sure what it is supposed to prove.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCj0ertAmQoBruce Gray was working on the parts that would go into the "Voluntary Update Program" more than a year before it went into effect, he patented the "fix" and sold it to SIG while claiming that the gun was perfectly fine and he had "bounces P320s off walls trying to make them go off" https://practicalshootinginsights.com/a-year-before-the-armys-sig-sauer-p320-drop-test-failures-bruce-gray-was-already-designing-the-fix/ He is the last man I would listen to regarding the P320. |
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Quoted: Bruce Gray was working on the parts that would go into the "Voluntary Update Program" more than a year before it went into effect, he patented the "fix" and sold it to SIG while claiming that the gun was perfectly fine and he had "bounces P320s off walls trying to make them go off" https://practicalshootinginsights.com/a-year-before-the-armys-sig-sauer-p320-drop-test-failures-bruce-gray-was-already-designing-the-fix/ He is the last man I would listen to regarding the P320. I'm having a hard time seeing how that patent proves Gray was working on the parts that went into the voluntary upgrade. The form and function of every part he describes is different from what went into the voluntary upgrade. |
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Quoted: Bruce Gray was working on the parts that would go into the "Voluntary Update Program" more than a year before it went into effect, he patented the "fix" and sold it to SIG while claiming that the gun was perfectly fine and he had "bounces P320s off walls trying to make them go off" https://practicalshootinginsights.com/a-year-before-the-armys-sig-sauer-p320-drop-test-failures-bruce-gray-was-already-designing-the-fix/ He is the last man I would listen to regarding the P320. I know I don't trust him when it comes to the 320 stuff either. |
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Quoted: Exactly right. The human hand has incredible dexterity. In the animal world it is the most function appendage of all mammals. Our thumbs and triple jointed fingers mean we can grip anything from a shovel handle to a super complex drone or R/C remote, and make them all work. Nobody is making custom shovel handles or R/C remotes, we all use the same ones. It's only really in the pistol world where we see all of this cusomisation. I think it has more to do with commerce than function. I can shoot a Glock just as well as I can shoot a 1911. 50 rounds in and I am good. So shoot what you like. What I was driving at with "amateurs argue tools" is that a person who is proficient/professional can take a Ruger P89 (most un-ergonomic grip and trigger I could recall) and run it without a thought about how comfortable it is. When I see somebody post "Glocks suck" followed by why their pistol is supreme I immediately know that they are not serious people. Same with "1911s suck" or fill in the blank. |
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Quoted: Good post. What I was driving at with "amateurs argue tools" is that a person who is proficient/professional can take a Ruger P89 (most un-ergonomic grip and trigger I could recall) and run it without a thought about how comfortable it is. When I see somebody post "Glocks suck" followed by why their pistol is supreme I immediately know that they are not serious people. Same with "1911s suck" or fill in the blank. Pistols with distinctly different ergonomics compared to everything else on the market present additional limitations to practice/train around. Nothing amateur about it. |
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Quoted:Pistols with distinctly different ergonomics compared to everything else on the market present additional limitations to practice/train around. |
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Quoted: Good post. What I was driving at with "amateurs argue tools" is that a person who is proficient/professional can take a Ruger P89 (most un-ergonomic grip and trigger I could recall) and run it without a thought about how comfortable it is. When I see somebody post "Glocks suck" followed by why their pistol is supreme I immediately know that they are not serious people. Same with "1911s suck" or fill in the blank. Quoted: Quoted: Exactly right. The human hand has incredible dexterity. In the animal world it is the most function appendage of all mammals. Our thumbs and triple jointed fingers mean we can grip anything from a shovel handle to a super complex drone or R/C remote, and make them all work. Nobody is making custom shovel handles or R/C remotes, we all use the same ones. It's only really in the pistol world where we see all of this cusomisation. I think it has more to do with commerce than function. I can shoot a Glock just as well as I can shoot a 1911. 50 rounds in and I am good. So shoot what you like. What I was driving at with "amateurs argue tools" is that a person who is proficient/professional can take a Ruger P89 (most un-ergonomic grip and trigger I could recall) and run it without a thought about how comfortable it is. When I see somebody post "Glocks suck" followed by why their pistol is supreme I immediately know that they are not serious people. Same with "1911s suck" or fill in the blank. Attached File Finally. |
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Quoted: Good post. What I was driving at with "amateurs argue tools" is that a person who is proficient/professional can take a Ruger P89 (most un-ergonomic grip and trigger I could recall) and run it without a thought about how comfortable it is. When I see somebody post "Glocks suck" followed by why their pistol is supreme I immediately know that they are not serious people. Same with "1911s suck" or fill in the blank. "Can run" is not exactly a high standard. Could a USPSA Grand Master with a Ruger P89 beat a dirt clod shooter with an open class gun? Sure, but the GM will do even better with the open class gun and the dirt clod shooter would do even worse with the P89. |
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Quoted: Not by much. Many times Ive picked up handguns Im unfamilier with and become consistant/on target within 15rds or less. Granted some people are less adaptive than me, but I shoot a lot. Quoted: Quoted:Pistols with distinctly different ergonomics compared to everything else on the market present additional limitations to practice/train around. Both points can be correct. For example, let's say I'm familiar with the XD, but if I were to get a VP9 (which I have never shot) I should be able to get reasonable hits on a paper target; that being said, I will likely be more proficient with the handgun I'm used to than the one I've never shot before. Maybe the VP9's paddle magazine release would trip me up and I'll be slower trying to reload. |
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Quoted: Bruce Gray was working on the parts that would go into the "Voluntary Update Program" more than a year before it went into effect, he patented the "fix" and sold it to SIG while claiming that the gun was perfectly fine and he had "bounces P320s off walls trying to make them go off" https://practicalshootinginsights.com/a-year-before-the-armys-sig-sauer-p320-drop-test-failures-bruce-gray-was-already-designing-the-fix/ He is the last man I would listen to regarding the P320. On top of that, he was publicly defending the P320 right up to the end. After it leaked in late July of 2017 that Dallas PD had done an internal recall of the P320 owing to a drop safe issue, here's what ol' Bruce had to say on the matter: I can state with assurance that I may be considered a SME on this platform. I speak only for myself here: We have dropped, thrown and banged on P320’s for three years, working on our long-term and very in-depth R&D project. Some of our attempts well exceeded accepted specifications for such drop and jar tests. I include throwing a P320 against our shop wall in that category. I’ve never experienced an instance in which an example with intact striker lock and reasonable sear and springing values would fire when dropped, much less a proper factory-spec gun. I have quietly searched for and looked into online reports of any claimed malfunctions or safety issues, including drop-safety failures. In three years, have yet to verify a single proven instance in which a proper, factory-spec P320 has fired when dropped. Individual pistols and parts can break, of course. Were that to happen, SIG SAUER will correct it and revise any component which may benefit from it, as has already been the case with the extractor, for example. This is absolutely to be expected from the world’s premier gunmaker. But that’s not the issue. Because there isn’t one, in my informed opinion. However, every bit of my 43 years of gunsmithing and design experience, and my special knowledge of this platform, have convinced me beyond any reasonable doubt that the P320 has no inherent flaw or fault whatsoever in it’s safety systems or fire control mechanism. I’ve read the memo, followed discussions, communicated with some of the personalities involved and chatted online with one of the authors of a recent blog on the DPD’s decision. I am here to tell you that there is nothing there to justify pulling the P320 from duty. Nothing at all, as far as I am able to see. And believe me, I have skin in the game, and I am looking. I fully expect this decision to be rescinded shortly once the light of day and sensibility are brought to bear. What SIG might due in response to the rumourmongering which passes as online journalism these days is not for me to speculate upon. In fact, speculating about these things at all seems bad form. For my part, I can and will back my statements. -Bruce Gray Grayguns LLC Sauce: https://primaryandsecondary.com/addressing-concerns-sig-sauer-p320/ And then five days later, Omaha Outdoors drops THAT video. |
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Quoted: Pistols with distinctly different ergonomics compared to everything else on the market present additional limitations to practice/train around. Nothing amateur about it. No one shows up at Delta OTC and says “but the Glock is inferior due to grip angle”. SFOD-D, SF, 75rr, MARSOC, SEALs, FBI HRT, DS, and CIA all issue Glock, and it works just fine. I’m sure a M&P would be fine too. James Stewart didn’t start racing Kawasaki because the clutch lever or bars were ergonomically superior. He started racing Kawasaki because of their robust youth sponsorship program at the time. He’d have won with a Yamaha, Suzuki, or Honda also. He showed up and performed instead of making excuses. |
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Quoted: It’s absolutely an amateur opinion in a literal sense. I work for an organization that carries G19s. I have to qual on the timer, from concealment. In other words, the fast from the holster scenario that people argue about on the internet. I’m yet to hear a single professional user whine about the grip angle, even in that context. Because professionals just do their jobs, but amateurs think that new golf clubs will gain them 50yds. No one shows up at Delta OTC and says “but the Glock is inferior due to grip angle”. SFOD-D, SF, 75rr, MARSOC, SEALs, FBI HRT, DS, and CIA all issue Glock, and it works just fine. I’m sure a M&P would be fine too. James Stewart didn’t start racing Kawasaki because the clutch lever or bars were superior. He started racing Kawasaki because of their robust youth sponsorship program at the time. He’d have won with a Yamaha, Suzuki, or Honda also. You've never heard professionals talk about their equipment and how they wish it was different? I sure have. |
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Quoted: It’s absolutely an amateur opinion in a literal sense. I work for an organization that carries G19s. I have to qual on the timer, from concealment. In other words, the fast from the holster scenario that people argue about on the internet. I’m yet to hear a single professional user whine about the grip angle, even in that context. Because professionals just do their jobs, but amateurs think that new golf clubs will gain them 50yds. Quoted: It’s absolutely an amateur opinion in a literal sense. I work for an organization that carries G19s. I have to qual on the timer, from concealment. In other words, the fast from the holster scenario that people argue about on the internet. I’m yet to hear a single professional user whine about the grip angle, even in that context. Because professionals just do their jobs, but amateurs think that new golf clubs will gain them 50yds. I'm not sure why anyone would expect the ergonomics of the pistol they primarily train with to cause them problems, and I have no doubt that you'd do fine on your qual with any number of pistols. Many professionals prefer Glocks, that really has nothing to do with my post. No one shows up at Delta OTC and says “but the Glock is inferior due to grip angle”. Nobody's saying it in this thread either. |
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Quoted: On top of that, he was publicly defending the P320 right up to the end. After it leaked in late July of 2017 that Dallas PD had done an internal recall of the P320 owing to a drop safe issue, here's what ol' Bruce had to say on the matter: I can state with assurance that I may be considered a SME on this platform. I speak only for myself here: We have dropped, thrown and banged on P320’s for three years, working on our long-term and very in-depth R&D project. Some of our attempts well exceeded accepted specifications for such drop and jar tests. I include throwing a P320 against our shop wall in that category. I’ve never experienced an instance in which an example with intact striker lock and reasonable sear and springing values would fire when dropped, much less a proper factory-spec gun. I have quietly searched for and looked into online reports of any claimed malfunctions or safety issues, including drop-safety failures. In three years, have yet to verify a single proven instance in which a proper, factory-spec P320 has fired when dropped. Individual pistols and parts can break, of course. Were that to happen, SIG SAUER will correct it and revise any component which may benefit from it, as has already been the case with the extractor, for example. This is absolutely to be expected from the world’s premier gunmaker. But that’s not the issue. Because there isn’t one, in my informed opinion. However, every bit of my 43 years of gunsmithing and design experience, and my special knowledge of this platform, have convinced me beyond any reasonable doubt that the P320 has no inherent flaw or fault whatsoever in it’s safety systems or fire control mechanism. I’ve read the memo, followed discussions, communicated with some of the personalities involved and chatted online with one of the authors of a recent blog on the DPD’s decision. I am here to tell you that there is nothing there to justify pulling the P320 from duty. Nothing at all, as far as I am able to see. And believe me, I have skin in the game, and I am looking. I fully expect this decision to be rescinded shortly once the light of day and sensibility are brought to bear. What SIG might due in response to the rumourmongering which passes as online journalism these days is not for me to speculate upon. In fact, speculating about these things at all seems bad form. For my part, I can and will back my statements. -Bruce Gray Grayguns LLC Sauce: https://primaryandsecondary.com/addressing-concerns-sig-sauer-p320/ And then five days later, Omaha Outdoors drops THAT video. Quoted: Quoted: Bruce Gray was working on the parts that would go into the "Voluntary Update Program" more than a year before it went into effect, he patented the "fix" and sold it to SIG while claiming that the gun was perfectly fine and he had "bounces P320s off walls trying to make them go off" https://practicalshootinginsights.com/a-year-before-the-armys-sig-sauer-p320-drop-test-failures-bruce-gray-was-already-designing-the-fix/ He is the last man I would listen to regarding the P320. On top of that, he was publicly defending the P320 right up to the end. After it leaked in late July of 2017 that Dallas PD had done an internal recall of the P320 owing to a drop safe issue, here's what ol' Bruce had to say on the matter: I can state with assurance that I may be considered a SME on this platform. I speak only for myself here: We have dropped, thrown and banged on P320’s for three years, working on our long-term and very in-depth R&D project. Some of our attempts well exceeded accepted specifications for such drop and jar tests. I include throwing a P320 against our shop wall in that category. I’ve never experienced an instance in which an example with intact striker lock and reasonable sear and springing values would fire when dropped, much less a proper factory-spec gun. I have quietly searched for and looked into online reports of any claimed malfunctions or safety issues, including drop-safety failures. In three years, have yet to verify a single proven instance in which a proper, factory-spec P320 has fired when dropped. Individual pistols and parts can break, of course. Were that to happen, SIG SAUER will correct it and revise any component which may benefit from it, as has already been the case with the extractor, for example. This is absolutely to be expected from the world’s premier gunmaker. But that’s not the issue. Because there isn’t one, in my informed opinion. However, every bit of my 43 years of gunsmithing and design experience, and my special knowledge of this platform, have convinced me beyond any reasonable doubt that the P320 has no inherent flaw or fault whatsoever in it’s safety systems or fire control mechanism. I’ve read the memo, followed discussions, communicated with some of the personalities involved and chatted online with one of the authors of a recent blog on the DPD’s decision. I am here to tell you that there is nothing there to justify pulling the P320 from duty. Nothing at all, as far as I am able to see. And believe me, I have skin in the game, and I am looking. I fully expect this decision to be rescinded shortly once the light of day and sensibility are brought to bear. What SIG might due in response to the rumourmongering which passes as online journalism these days is not for me to speculate upon. In fact, speculating about these things at all seems bad form. For my part, I can and will back my statements. -Bruce Gray Grayguns LLC Sauce: https://primaryandsecondary.com/addressing-concerns-sig-sauer-p320/ And then five days later, Omaha Outdoors drops THAT video. I’ll sometimes watch his commentary to see what he’s saying, but it’s for sake of curiosity, not information. I just can’t take him seriously. His latest stunt involved developing a very particular thin lever to depress the sear… based on the premise the “punch test” depresses the sear too much. I’m not sure what he was even trying to prove. That the pistol with an unsupported sear that can move without trigger input won’t override its other safety systems as long as the sear only moves a little bit? It comes across as desperate flailing trying to make any excuse, rather than any serious investigation into the design of the pistol and what could explain these events. |
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Quoted: It comes across as desperate flailing trying to make any excuse, rather than any serious investigation into the design of the pistol and what could explain these events. Oh I think history has probably repeated itself. I bet Bruce knows the problems in detail, and he's just lying again. |
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Even in Hungary, it is talked about in the general gun community and it is banned in several ranges also. https://www.portfolio.hu/global/20250817/hatszaz-millio-dollarert-vasarolt-be-amerika-az-uj-fegyverekbol-most-viszont-ugy-nez-ki-mehet-az-egesz-a-kukaba-780399 But this article is saying that the engineers in Switzerland that helped in the P320 and P250 avoided it and said it is dangerous and has flaws. Amíg „csak” a civil és rendvédelmi piacra tervezett pisztolyokkal volt probléma, a SIG a leheto legrosszabb stratégiát választotta: a svájci gyár valószínuleg az addig valóban hibátlan renoméját védve kerek perec kijelentette, hogy a pisztolyoknak semmi baja, a balesetek nagy része „fake news”, a maradék pedig azért történt meg, mert a fegyvert kezelo emberek ügyetlenek voltak. A fegyver megbízhatatlanságát bizonyító videók tartalmát a gyár szintén kétségbe vonta. Egészen idén júliusig kellett várni arra, hogy ne tudjanak hova hátrálni, de ehhez is egy tragédia kellett. one of the leading gun rights people in Hungary said it is the stupidest thing they ever heard of and it is given quiet murmurs of Ron Cohen and him being a Jew with cost cutting is why it is happening and they are avoiding talking about it. So out of the various ranges around Budapest, several have banned it. |
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Is the super sloppy fit of the slide to frame an issue or not? Seems having a sear in the frame and the striker components in the slide and also having a lot of slop is not a good recipe. Yeah, yeah, I know a lot of the videos showing it firing by just bumping the slide requires the trigger to be pulled back some, but are they missing the point that partially pulling the trigger should NOT allow the gun to go off just by squeezing the slide and frame with your fingers? |
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San Francisco Police Department and Sheriff’s Department bans the Sig P320 for its officers/deputies and CCW holders. https://sfstandard.com/2025/08/15/sfpd-guns-sig-sauer-malfunction/ |
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Quoted: Is the super sloppy fit of the slide to frame an issue or not? Seems having a sear in the frame and the striker components in the slide and also having a lot of slop is not a good recipe. Yeah, yeah, I know a lot of the videos showing it firing by just bumping the slide requires the trigger to be pulled back some, but are they missing the point that partially pulling the trigger should NOT allow the gun to go off just by squeezing the slide and frame with your fingers? If you think about how they work, it's inevitable that pulling the trigger just the right amount will put the pistol in a state where manipulating the slide will cause the pistol to fire. The P320 (and many, but not all striker fired pistols) is designed so that the trigger pull first deactivates the striker safety, then forces the sear to lower. They all deactivate the striker safety before they lower the sear because if you lower the sear before you deactivate the striker safety the pistol will fail to fire. All pistols have some vertical slop in the slide/frame fit. Necessarily, there will be a point in the trigger stroke where the striker safety has been deactivated and the engagement between the sear and the striker has been reduced until it is less then the vertical slop in the slide. When the sear engagement is less than the vertical slop in the slide, lifting the rear of the slide (or pressing down on the front of the slide, which lifts the rear of the slide) will lift the striker off of the sear, firing the pistol. Glocks will do it, along with ever striker fired design that forces the sear down through trigger action. I think I was the first person to replicate it with a Glock, but several YouTubers have done so as well. Does that mean you shouldn't be concerned about the vertical slop in the slide? Maybe, maybe not. The follow up to the FBI test showed that how far something other than a trigger pull depresses the sear is a major factor in whether or not the striker block works. Bruce Gray's new video seems to make the same point (full disclosure: i havent watched it yet). More vertical slop could theoretically make it more likely that debris on top of the sear could push it down far enough to deactivate the striker block. I'd love to see testing on how far the sear can be depressed without deactivating the striker block. |
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Quoted: San Francisco Police Department and Sheriff’s Department bans the Sig P320 for its officers/deputies and CCW holders. https://sfstandard.com/2025/08/15/sfpd-guns-sig-sauer-malfunction/ While I get the "good intentions" of banning them for CCW holders, I don't see how they can. I also get its commiefornia & to them the 2A is a privilege they dole out as they see fit, but Constitutionally I don't think it would hold up, but who's going to pay to fight them over it. I think sending a letter to all the people in their jurisdiction that they have issued license to letting them know of the danger & that they are not allowing their officers to use them would be a good idea, but trying to ban them I think is just a good way to start saying they can ban all guns cause they aren't safe, at least for us lowly citizens. 
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Quoted: While I get the "good intentions" of banning them for CCW holders, I don't see how they can. I also get its commiefornia & to them the 2A is a privilege they dole out as they see fit, but Constitutionally I don't think it would hold up, but who's going to pay to fight them over it. I think sending a letter to all the people in their jurisdiction that they have issued license to letting them know of the danger & that they are not allowing their officers to use them would be a good idea, but trying to ban them I think is just a good way to start saying they can ban all guns cause they aren't safe, at least for us lowly citizens. Quoted: Quoted:San Francisco Police Department and Sheriff’s Department bans the Sig P320 for its officers/deputies and CCW holders. https://sfstandard.com/2025/08/15/sfpd-guns-sig-sauer-malfunction/ While I get the "good intentions" of banning them for CCW holders, I don't see how they can. I also get its commiefornia & to them the 2A is a privilege they dole out as they see fit, but Constitutionally I don't think it would hold up, but who's going to pay to fight them over it. I think sending a letter to all the people in their jurisdiction that they have issued license to letting them know of the danger & that they are not allowing their officers to use them would be a good idea, but trying to ban them I think is just a good way to start saying they can ban all guns cause they aren't safe, at least for us lowly citizens. Dude, it's San Francisco. Of course they're gonna ban you from carrying it. They hate they've been forced to Shall Issue by the Supremes, this is just another penalty for living in San Francisco, as if the shit in the streets wasn't bad enough. |
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Quoted: San Francisco Police Department and Sheriff’s Department bans the Sig P320 for its officers/deputies and CCW holders. https://sfstandard.com/2025/08/15/sfpd-guns-sig-sauer-malfunction/ Is Sig going to sue them too 
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Quoted: Is Sig going to sue them too Quoted: Quoted: San Francisco Police Department and Sheriff's Department bans the Sig P320 for its officers/deputies and CCW holders. https://sfstandard.com/2025/08/15/sfpd-guns-sig-sauer-malfunction/ Is Sig going to sue them too |
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Quoted: Pistols with distinctly different ergonomics compared to everything else on the market present additional limitations to practice/train around. Nothing amateur about it. You are making a mountain out of a molehill. There is nothing significantly harder about shooting a Glock. If you have convinced yourself that there is something insurmountable about the grip angle then you did not try very hard. Ruger MK series and Luger pistols both have a steeper grip angle than a Glock and have been around forever and work fine. Just because you can't make something work does not mean it does not work. |
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Quoted: You are making a mountain out of a molehill. There is nothing significantly harder about shooting a Glock. If you have convinced yourself that there is something insurmountable about the grip angle then you did not try very hard. Ruger MK series and Luger pistols both have a steeper grip angle than a Glock and have been around forever and work fine. Just because you can't make something work does not mean it does not work. Quoted: Quoted: Pistols with distinctly different ergonomics compared to everything else on the market present additional limitations to practice/train around. Nothing amateur about it. You are making a mountain out of a molehill. There is nothing significantly harder about shooting a Glock. If you have convinced yourself that there is something insurmountable about the grip angle then you did not try very hard. Ruger MK series and Luger pistols both have a steeper grip angle than a Glock and have been around forever and work fine. Just because you can't make something work does not mean it does not work. Not to mention that in military or law enforcement, the only handgun model that many people have shot are what they are issued. For many law enforcement officers, they were initial taught using Glocks so that’s their default grip angle that they’ve known from their beginning. It’d be the same if the military had picked Glock. Back when I was forced to carry a Glock, the grip angle wasn’t a major issue. The grip angle was annoying when I’d shoot other guns and went back to my Glock, but it was a quick transition to get used to the Glock again with a few practice draws. I say these things as a person that really dislike Glocks, although not as much as I dislike modern Sig. |
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Quoted: On top of that, he was publicly defending the P320 right up to the end. After it leaked in late July of 2017 that Dallas PD had done an internal recall of the P320 owing to a drop safe issue, here's what ol' Bruce had to say on the matter: I can state with assurance that I may be considered a SME on this platform. I speak only for myself here: We have dropped, thrown and banged on P320’s for three years, working on our long-term and very in-depth R&D project. Some of our attempts well exceeded accepted specifications for such drop and jar tests. I include throwing a P320 against our shop wall in that category. I’ve never experienced an instance in which an example with intact striker lock and reasonable sear and springing values would fire when dropped, much less a proper factory-spec gun. I have quietly searched for and looked into online reports of any claimed malfunctions or safety issues, including drop-safety failures. In three years, have yet to verify a single proven instance in which a proper, factory-spec P320 has fired when dropped. Individual pistols and parts can break, of course. Were that to happen, SIG SAUER will correct it and revise any component which may benefit from it, as has already been the case with the extractor, for example. This is absolutely to be expected from the world’s premier gunmaker. But that’s not the issue. Because there isn’t one, in my informed opinion. However, every bit of my 43 years of gunsmithing and design experience, and my special knowledge of this platform, have convinced me beyond any reasonable doubt that the P320 has no inherent flaw or fault whatsoever in it’s safety systems or fire control mechanism. I’ve read the memo, followed discussions, communicated with some of the personalities involved and chatted online with one of the authors of a recent blog on the DPD’s decision. I am here to tell you that there is nothing there to justify pulling the P320 from duty. Nothing at all, as far as I am able to see. And believe me, I have skin in the game, and I am looking. I fully expect this decision to be rescinded shortly once the light of day and sensibility are brought to bear. What SIG might due in response to the rumourmongering which passes as online journalism these days is not for me to speculate upon. In fact, speculating about these things at all seems bad form. For my part, I can and will back my statements. -Bruce Gray Grayguns LLC Sauce: https://primaryandsecondary.com/addressing-concerns-sig-sauer-p320/ And then five days later, Omaha Outdoors drops THAT video. If anyone would like to save the screenshots of Gray's entire response, here they are: Attached File Attached File Attached File |
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Quoted: You are making a mountain out of a molehill. There is nothing significantly harder about shooting a Glock. If you have convinced yourself that there is something insurmountable about the grip angle then you did not try very hard. Ruger MK series and Luger pistols both have a steeper grip angle than a Glock and have been around forever and work fine. Just because you can't make something work does not mean it does not work. I think you guys are making a lot more out of my comment than I did. This all started with me making a comment that while most pistols present pretty similarly (Beretta, Sig, 1911, CZ-75), Glocks are substantially different. This was met with a photo attempting to insinuate that it's basically the same as a 1911 because it focused on the angle of the grip rather than the shooter's wrist when held, followed by claims that pointing this out is amateurish. Nobody said it makes them suck or that it's something that can't be trained around. Well somebody did, but it wasn't me. |
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Quoted: I think you guys are making a lot more out of my comment than I did. This all started with me making a comment that while most pistols present pretty similarly (Beretta, Sig, 1911, CZ-75), Glocks are substantially different. This was met with a photo attempting to insinuate that it's basically the same as a 1911 because it focused on the angle of the grip rather than the shooter's wrist when held, followed by claims that pointing this out is amateurish. Nobody said it makes them suck or that it's something that can't be trained around. Well somebody did, but it wasn't me. I responded to a specific thing you said. Go read what you wrote again if you need to. Never mind I will quote it exactly again: "Pistols with distinctly different ergonomics compared to everything else on the market present additional limitations to practice/train around. Nothing amateur about it." This is the definition of amateur. Telling us that we have to accept your made up definition of the Glock grip angle as "distinctly different" is silly. You have created a made up problem to explain your dislike for them. It may present limitations for YOU but that does not necessarily carry over to the rest of us. |
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Quoted: I responded to a specific thing you said. Go read what you wrote again if you need to. Never mind I will quote it exactly again: "Pistols with distinctly different ergonomics compared to everything else on the market present additional limitations to practice/train around. Nothing amateur about it." This is the definition of amateur. Telling us that we have to accept your made up definition of the Glock grip angle as "distinctly different" is silly. You have created a made up problem to explain your dislike for them. It may present limitations for YOU but that does not necessarily carry over to the rest of us. It is different, and you should get some additional dryfire practice when you start shooting one. |
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Quoted: The Glock grip sucks for human hands. Hands are not flat. Palm swells are needed and you see them on the VP 9 and similar. Handguns that fit the hand have a lip for the pinkie finger and palm swells on the sides. You can add a mag well...but you can't fix the flat sides on a Glock. The Glock trigger is a staple gun. Its the definition of a bad trigger. It has huge overtravel and locktime measured with a sun dial. The Glock is cheap, reliable, and disposable. That's the secret of Glocks. |
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Quoted:  Quoted: Quoted: It is different, and you should get some additional dryfire practice when you start shooting one. He's 100% correct. The backstrap angle on a Glock is different enough from the industry norm that if you want to be good at presentation, you'll need to practice that specific to Glocks, even if you're already proficient on something else. It's not a skill that shows up on something like a LE qualification score, but it matters in real world use. |
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Quoted: I always got a kick out of it when some amateur would come into the shop, ask to see a pistol, then meticulously palpate it. Rub their hand around the grip. Squeeze, let go, squeeze again. Look off at the ceiling to I guess feel it even more carefully. “Gotta make sure it feels good in my hand.” I can’t recall ever handling a pistol that doesn’t just feel like I’m holding some metal/plastic/wood but maybe I’m just not sufficiently perceptive. Yep, right up there with whining about the trigger. If you can't shoot a stock glock you suck. |
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Quoted: Well if the rumor is true that they're individually inspecting each 320 then it's all hands on deck. Quoted: Quoted: Not only does Davidson's not have any P320s in stock, they don't have any SIG handguns or SIG rifles in stock. Ammo & a few optics only. Well if the rumor is true that they're individually inspecting each 320 then it's all hands on deck. That SIG is individually inspecting each 320? That may be true, |
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Quoted: It is different, and you should get some additional dryfire practice when you start shooting one. Quoted: Quoted: I responded to a specific thing you said. Go read what you wrote again if you need to. Never mind I will quote it exactly again: "Pistols with distinctly different ergonomics compared to everything else on the market present additional limitations to practice/train around. Nothing amateur about it." This is the definition of amateur. Telling us that we have to accept your made up definition of the Glock grip angle as "distinctly different" is silly. You have created a made up problem to explain your dislike for them. It may present limitations for YOU but that does not necessarily carry over to the rest of us. It is different, and you should get some additional dryfire practice when you start shooting one. Yeah Glock presentation is a bit different. I don't just swap out a Glock with a 1911 without doing some training refresher to adjust. Same going back the other way. Less noticeable with irons, but it's more obvious with optics. Most of my pistols have optics now. If you've ever seen someone forget to switch off the thumb safety at a competition, go ahead and hit that like and subscribe button. Edit same is even more true of revolvers, but less due to the presentation and more due to the reloads. |
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Quoted: That SIG is individually inspecting each 320? That may be true, but that doesn't impact Davidson's decision to pull all SIG firearms from their inventory. Davidson's is one of the larger firearm distributors. Not that they pulled them, that they don't have any, because every assembler at SIG is inspecting 320s, not building or sending any other guns. Just a theory... |