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Posted: 4/21/2022 5:13:52 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Serious question- How is this better than a modern updated version of the M-4 using 855A1? Exactly what capability gap is it filling? On the MG side, how is it superior to the current para saw and what does it do better? It isn’t. It isn’t. |
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Posted: 4/21/2022 5:16:08 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They carried it but a lot of people wanted a bigger round in the form of a battle rifle. From Vietnam to Iraq to Afghanistan. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Your bOoMeRs were carrying the M16. They carried it but a lot of people wanted a bigger round in the form of a battle rifle. From Vietnam to Iraq to Afghanistan. So it's not bOoMeRs then. Just curious why people want to attack an age group that had nothing to do with this decision. They're too busy trying to hide from the unvaccinated and yelling at clouds to care about this subject. |
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Posted: 4/21/2022 5:20:58 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The advantage is volume and mass. A M855A1 clone with half the size and weight of a 556 cartridge, so you can have 50 straightwalled rounds in a thinner AR mag or 300 rounds in a SAW drum, or can fit 6 30-rnd stick mags of 5.7 size cartridges in the space of 3 AR mags. Reducing powder mass also reduces heat & recoil. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: There is promise is polymer cases... but that also kinda starts to leave the realm of "traditional cartridges", so I'll stand by my point. As for higher operating pressures... I'm still highly dubious of any real-world useful advantage they are going to provide. Ballistic bench racing. The advantage is volume and mass. A M855A1 clone with half the size and weight of a 556 cartridge, so you can have 50 straightwalled rounds in a thinner AR mag or 300 rounds in a SAW drum, or can fit 6 30-rnd stick mags of 5.7 size cartridges in the space of 3 AR mags. Reducing powder mass also reduces heat & recoil. Explain to me how you reduce powder mass without reducing ballistic performance..... Straight walled rounds in a high pressure rifle? 5.7 size cartridges that clone M855A1? You haven't spent a lot of time at the loading bench, have you? |
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Posted: 4/21/2022 5:25:32 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Turns cover into concealment. This will penetrate targets at several hundred meters that M855A1 will not penetrate at the muzzle. Very little that 5.56 won’t penetrate that 7.62 will, in short bursts. The latter chews barriers up better on auto though. |
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Posted: 4/21/2022 5:25:37 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So it's not bOoMeRs then. Just curious why people want to attack an age group that had nothing to do with this decision. They're too busy trying to hide from the unvaccinated and yelling at clouds to care about this subject. Go back and look at Milley's formative years - it's a rehash of battle rifle culture. There's no deep thought involved in the program. The pre-NGSW program explicitly wanted 7.62NATO. NGSW justifications varied as Iraq, Afghanistan, and near-peer came and went but they were always about a bigger bullet. |
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Posted: 4/21/2022 5:25:53 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They carried it but a lot of people wanted a bigger round in the form of a battle rifle. From Vietnam to Iraq to Afghanistan. Which is usually a mistake. |
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Posted: 4/21/2022 5:31:39 PM EDT
[#7]
Gonna go out on a limb and say this may not go down as well as the plastic telescoping ammo.
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Posted: 4/21/2022 5:35:22 PM EDT
[#8]
Army Officials Brief Award of Next Gen Weapons Contract
Army Maj. Gen. Anthony W. Potts, Program Executive Officer Soldier; Army Brig. Gen. Larry Q. Burris, Soldier Lethality Cross Functional Team director; and Army Brig. Gen. William M. Boruff, Joint Program Executive Officer Armaments and Ammunition, conduct a media roundtable on the award of next generation squad weapons contracts. https://www.defense.gov/Multimedia/Videos/videoid/840256/dvpcc/false/#DVIDSVideoPlayer581 ETA: i can't work links apparently |
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Posted: 4/21/2022 5:36:52 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Go back and look at Milley's formative years - it's a rehash of battle rifle culture. There's no deep thought involved in the program. The pre-NGSW program explicitly wanted 7.62NATO. NGSW justifications varied as Iraq, Afghanistan, and near-peer came and went but they were always about a bigger bullet. To which you give too much cares for and are attached to this subject emotionally enough to lash out with the insults. I don't, my opinion means nothing and wouldn't change anything no matter how narcissistic I had thought of my opinions being relevant to this discussion. Therefore there's not one good reason to be toxic and insult. I personally don't care for the round or it's insane recoil. Therefore I don't GAF to care about it to even bother wasting my hate on an age group. What they like and what I like are two different things that has zero to do with the other. I also don't insult people who prefer the automatic over the manual, either. I just DGAF about that as well because it's a stupid argument that's just as unwinnable as this one. |
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Posted: 4/21/2022 5:38:10 PM EDT
[#10]
Oh cool a proprietary cartridge. I'm sure it will be a smashing success just like 6.8 SPC and 45 Gap.
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Posted: 4/21/2022 5:38:10 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Very little that 5.56 won’t penetrate that 7.62 will, in short bursts. The latter chews barriers up better on auto though. Correct, but we're not comparing 5.56 to 7.62. The 6.8 is about the same weight as M80A1, but has higher muzzle velocity, better sectional density, and a higher BC. It does things that 7.62 cant |
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Posted: 4/21/2022 5:38:39 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Explain to me how you reduce powder mass without reducing ballistic performance..... Straight walled rounds in a high pressure rifle? 5.7 size cartridges that clone M855A1? You haven't spent a lot of time at the loading bench, have you?  You increase pressure. High pressure takes building a new gun and cartridge together. That's why handloaders won't be the ones to do it. Their hobby is juggling around components intended for low pressures; not creating new powders, primers, and firearms. It will take a military or commercial entity to move firearms technology out of the 1980s, which is why I'm butthurt about NGSW missing the chance. |
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Posted: 4/21/2022 5:41:56 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Oh cool a proprietary cartridge. I'm sure it will be a smashing success just like 6.8 SPC and 45 Gap. That's a really silly comparison. |
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Posted: 4/21/2022 5:46:48 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Correct, but we're not comparing 5.56 to 7.62. The 6.8 is about the same weight as M80A1, but has higher muzzle velocity, better sectional density, and a higher BC. It does things that 7.62 cant I agree, but mostly the real world difference will come from better retained energy at distance. |
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Posted: 4/21/2022 5:52:57 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I agree, but mostly the real world difference will come from better retained energy at distance. Which is totally worth the loss of ammunition. Because our troops are constantly being gunned down by enemies that they have hit but not incapacitated out past 800m. 
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Posted: 4/21/2022 5:58:16 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The new round? The 6.5 has a lot more energy than 5.56. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Serious question- How is this better than a modern updated version of the M-4 using 855A1? Exactly what capability gap is it filling? On the MG side, how is it superior to the current para saw and what does it do better? The new round? The 6.5 has a lot more energy than 5.56. Since when is 5.56 lacking energy to shoot people? I've seen people shot with 5.56 and it didn't seem to lack anything. I took it to designated marksman school and it worked perfectly out to 600 and a bit beyond. |
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Posted: 4/21/2022 6:00:39 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Turns cover into concealment. This will penetrate targets at several hundred meters that M855A1 will not penetrate at the muzzle. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Serious question- How is this better than a modern updated version of the M-4 using 855A1? Exactly what capability gap is it filling? On the MG side, how is it superior to the current para saw and what does it do better? Turns cover into concealment. This will penetrate targets at several hundred meters that M855A1 will not penetrate at the muzzle. Doubt it. Black Tip turns armor into concealment. We already have black tip in inventory. It is the cure for armor. Actual cover is cover against things a lot larger than what this rifle can shoot. I don't like A1, but it is effective and it penetrates perfectly well, on likely intermediate barriers like windshield glass. Exactly what are they asking it to penetrate? |
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Posted: 4/21/2022 6:01:53 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Since when is 5.56 lacking energy to shoot people? I've seen people shot with 5.56 and it didn't seem to lack anything. I took it to designated marksman school and it worked perfectly out to 600 and a bit beyond. A better round is going to have a better effect on cover and body armor. From what I have seen this isn't about simply shooting a target. It's giving the average combat soldier a better round against those things. |
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Posted: 4/21/2022 6:03:55 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I agree, but mostly the real world difference will come from better retained energy at distance. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Correct, but we're not comparing 5.56 to 7.62. The 6.8 is about the same weight as M80A1, but has higher muzzle velocity, better sectional density, and a higher BC. It does things that 7.62 cant I agree, but mostly the real world difference will come from better retained energy at distance. Serious question- Is someone out ranging US Forces? I don't see any peer nation with weapons that exceed our capabilities. The only historical reference to that that I recall was absurd comparisons about how "they have a DSHK on the far mountain and I can't hit them with my M-4"...which was flat out stupid as you don't meet a .50 cal with your M-4. |
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Posted: 4/21/2022 6:04:45 PM EDT
[#20]
I've seen people shot with 5.56. I've also shot around walls and various types of cover where other rounds were defeating it. But 5.56 wasn't. I like 5.56. But it isn't perfect.
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Posted: 4/21/2022 6:09:19 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A better round is going to have a better effect on cover and body armor. From what I have seen this isn't about simply shooting a target. It's giving the average combat soldier a better round against those things. Has this been an issue in the last 20 years? Are the Russians issuing plates to every soldier they deployed to Ukraine? Are we concerned about not penetrating Chinese plates in the maybe coming fight with them? Army could have dumped the money and funding in to actually evolving small arms and cartridges, instead they took a step backward. The M4 is perfectly adequate until something revolutionary gets the tab picked up by the .Gov. I really don’t believe any soldier with a CAR or CIB currently is saying, “wow, my M4 really didn’t work that well for that clean 600M shot I had”. Rifles are self defense or close quarters weapons. Machine guns and explosives kill people. I’m not inherently against the MG, but I do think it doesn’t fit our doctrinal use of support by fire weapons. |
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Posted: 4/21/2022 6:17:20 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Has this been an issue in the last 20 years? Are the Russians issuing plates to every soldier they deployed to Ukraine? Are we concerned about not penetrating Chinese plates in the maybe coming fight with them? Army could have dumped the money and funding in to actually evolving small arms and cartridges, instead they took a step backward. The M4 is perfectly adequate until something revolutionary gets the tab picked up by the .Gov. I really don’t believe any soldier with a CAR or CIB currently is saying, “wow, my M4 really didn’t work that well for that clean 600M shot I had”. Rifles are self defense or close quarters weapons. Machine guns and explosives kill people. I’m not inherently against the MG, but I do think it doesn’t fit our doctrinal use of support by fire weapons. That runs counter to about everything we experienced in the GWOT. |
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Posted: 4/21/2022 6:50:19 PM EDT
[#23]
I don't think this is for defeating body armor. This is about defeating killer robots on the battlefield.
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Posted: 4/21/2022 6:51:58 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't think this is for defeating body armor. This is about defeating killer robots on the battlefield. If that's the case, shouldn't we be focusing on phased plasma rifles in the 40 watt range? |
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Posted: 4/21/2022 7:07:11 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Serious question- Is someone out ranging US Forces? I don't see any peer nation with weapons that exceed our capabilities. The only historical reference to that that I recall was absurd comparisons about how "they have a DSHK on the far mountain and I can't hit them with my M-4"...which was flat out stupid as you don't meet a .50 cal with your M-4. Outranged by three dudes in sandals with PKMs. |
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Posted: 4/21/2022 9:38:46 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: https://i.postimg.cc/QMk6FZKn/knox-engineering-propellant-2.png You increase pressure. High pressure takes building a new gun and cartridge together. That's why handloaders won't be the ones to do it. Their hobby is juggling around components intended for low pressures; not creating new powders, primers, and firearms. It will take a military or commercial entity to move firearms technology out of the 1980s, which is why I'm butthurt about NGSW missing the chance. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Explain to me how you reduce powder mass without reducing ballistic performance..... Straight walled rounds in a high pressure rifle? 5.7 size cartridges that clone M855A1? You haven't spent a lot of time at the loading bench, have you? https://i.postimg.cc/QMk6FZKn/knox-engineering-propellant-2.png You increase pressure. High pressure takes building a new gun and cartridge together. That's why handloaders won't be the ones to do it. Their hobby is juggling around components intended for low pressures; not creating new powders, primers, and firearms. It will take a military or commercial entity to move firearms technology out of the 1980s, which is why I'm butthurt about NGSW missing the chance. I would love to see them put that into a machine gun. With no shoulder to headspace on and almost no body taper. Might be comical if they ran that design up to 80k PSI and tried to field it in a weapon. |
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Posted: 4/21/2022 9:48:13 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Outranged by three dudes in sandals with PKMs. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Serious question- Is someone out ranging US Forces? I don't see any peer nation with weapons that exceed our capabilities. The only historical reference to that that I recall was absurd comparisons about how "they have a DSHK on the far mountain and I can't hit them with my M-4"...which was flat out stupid as you don't meet a .50 cal with your M-4. Outranged by three dudes in sandals with PKMs. Regardless, 5.56 and definitely 6mm bullets can have high enough BC to reach out to 800m reliably. 6.8 needs too much gunpowder to get there. |
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Posted: 4/21/2022 9:55:56 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's a really silly comparison. Why, because you think this one is cooler? Its gonna have the same logical end if it doesn't get civilian demand to drive up production. |
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Posted: 4/21/2022 10:08:31 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why, because you think this one is cooler? Its gonna have the same logical end if it doesn't get civilian demand to drive up production. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: That's a really silly comparison. Why, because you think this one is cooler? Its gonna have the same logical end if it doesn't get civilian demand to drive up production. I believe his point is, that although the 6.8 may fail as well, it will be for reasons that don't have too much to do with the cartridges you mentioned. Thats the shame of the NGSW; with better leadership and vision it could have produced a 6mm polymer cased rifle and MG that would move the ball forward, but will instead probably be another failed project. Also, i think you have it backwards; a massive government contract would secure the rounds future and drive civilian adoption. |
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Posted: 4/21/2022 10:13:51 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I believe his point is, that although the 6.8 may fail as well, it will be for reasons that don't have too much to do with the cartridges you mentioned. Thats the shame of the NGSW; with better leadership and vision it could have produced a 6mm polymer cased rifle and MG that would move the ball forward, but will instead probably be another failed project. Also, i think you have it backwards; a massive government contract would secure the rounds future and drive civilian adoption. Yep. |
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Posted: 4/21/2022 10:22:32 PM EDT
[#31]
Such an odd choice. Not the sig but the entire NGSW requirements. This will never actually get issued in large numbers or they’ll go through this entire process again in 10yrs when they realized this makes little sense.
When this whole thing started I thought they’d go with one of the intermediate rounds, or create a new round like 6.8spc ii or 6.5 grendel. Weakness of those are being shoved in a platform they weren’t designed for. A platform built ground up for a cartridge like those would have been the perfect middle ground. |
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Posted: 4/21/2022 10:23:49 PM EDT
[#32]
I predict it fails cause that with the new Vortex optic and suppressor, laser, light and whatever will be 20 lbs.....
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Posted: 4/21/2022 10:26:26 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I predict it fails cause that with the new Vortex optic and suppressor, laser, light and whatever will be 20 lbs..... Its a 20 lb advanced recoil mitigation system
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Posted: 4/21/2022 10:42:19 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would love to see them put that into a machine gun. With no shoulder to headspace on and almost no body taper. Might be comical if they ran that design up to 80k PSI and tried to field it in a weapon. What does that even headspace on? |
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Posted: 4/21/2022 11:33:56 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What does that even headspace on? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I would love to see them put that into a machine gun. With no shoulder to headspace on and almost no body taper. Might be comical if they ran that design up to 80k PSI and tried to field it in a weapon. What does that even headspace on? Case mouth like a .30 Carbine. |
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Posted: 4/21/2022 11:41:47 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Case mouth like a .30 Carbine. That makes sense. Thanks |
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Posted: 4/22/2022 12:11:34 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: https://i.postimg.cc/QMk6FZKn/knox-engineering-propellant-2.png You increase pressure. High pressure takes building a new gun and cartridge together. That's why handloaders won't be the ones to do it. Their hobby is juggling around components intended for low pressures; not creating new powders, primers, and firearms. It will take a military or commercial entity to move firearms technology out of the 1980s, which is why I'm butthurt about NGSW missing the chance. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Explain to me how you reduce powder mass without reducing ballistic performance..... Straight walled rounds in a high pressure rifle? 5.7 size cartridges that clone M855A1? You haven't spent a lot of time at the loading bench, have you? https://i.postimg.cc/QMk6FZKn/knox-engineering-propellant-2.png You increase pressure. High pressure takes building a new gun and cartridge together. That's why handloaders won't be the ones to do it. Their hobby is juggling around components intended for low pressures; not creating new powders, primers, and firearms. It will take a military or commercial entity to move firearms technology out of the 1980s, which is why I'm butthurt about NGSW missing the chance. That data is almost 20 years old. I wonder why nothing has happened with it? https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA433982.pdf I would think Hogdon would be all over that technology. |
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Posted: 4/22/2022 1:18:01 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That data is almost 20 years old. I wonder why nothing has happened with it? https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA433982.pdf I would think Hogdon would be all over that technology. I remember in 2005 or so when St. Marks had a super powder. I guess it worked for artillery but I've not heard anything about it since. |
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Posted: 4/22/2022 6:22:47 AM EDT
[#39]
So NATO standard ammunition is no longer a thing?
I don't see any other countries rushing to adopt the weapon or the caliber. ETA, Just read a puff piece on TTAG about how this will be decisive and the allied countries need to get on board. LOL. The XM5 and 6.8×51 Ammunition Will Be a Decisive Advantage. U.S. Allies Should Adopt It, Too "Allies Need To Get On Board American allies in Europe and Asia are facing the same potential enemies the United States was thinking about when they started this process. The EU, Japan, Taiwan, and Australia all have money, but effectively destroyed their civilian firearms markets during the last century and can’t come up with new rifles they way we did. There’s no reason, however, that they can’t give SIG a call and get U.S. help in joining the effort." TTAG Link |
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Posted: 4/22/2022 9:00:26 AM EDT
[#40]
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Posted: 4/22/2022 10:06:21 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That data is almost 20 years old. I wonder why nothing has happened with it? https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA433982.pdf I would think Hogdon would be all over that technology. Small arms progress is glacial. Why produce a new powder to be sprinkled in 10% of a cartridge only to pad it out with cornstarch because it's sized for 1950s tech? They sell old technology to handloaders. They can do so indefinitely. Higher performance increases the risk and decreases the fun for their market for no real gain. Without steel primers and steel or poly cases (notice Sig uses a steel base - brass risks brazing to the bolt face at high psi), without a new action, it's a chicken/egg problem. |
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Posted: 4/22/2022 10:10:29 AM EDT
[#42]
Allies won’t be able to afford this transition, and it’s stupid.
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Posted: 4/22/2022 10:25:05 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Allies won’t be able to afford this transition, and it’s stupid. This isn't insignificant. I suppose it could turn out that there would be a 2 tier ammo system sort of like the underpowered 7.62 NATO the Japs used in their assault rifle. That, too, is stupid, but who knows. |
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Posted: 4/22/2022 10:41:36 AM EDT
[#44]
The Brits use underpowered 5.56 too.
All stupid. What they need is lighter ammunition, not more powerful. The TV cartridge had an advantage in that it can be made is a small, mobile machine in a truck. Which means the cases could be made in every country and the truck could make a loop through smaller countries, make their cases, and move on. Then you can just get a new barrel for your Mag58 or MG5. Very much cheaper. |
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Posted: 4/22/2022 10:54:33 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Brits use underpowered 5.56 too. All stupid. What they need is lighter ammunition, not more powerful. The TV cartridge had an advantage in that it can be made is a small, mobile machine in a truck. Which means the cases could be made in every country and the truck could make a loop through smaller countries, make their cases, and move on. Then you can just get a new barrel for your Mag58 or MG5. Very much cheaper. French steel-cased 5.56 for the Bugle comes to mind as yet another technical diversion from standard NATO. |
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Posted: 4/22/2022 11:28:06 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Outranged by three dudes in sandals with PKMs. Then they would be better with something more like a PKM, not a battle rifle. |
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Posted: 4/22/2022 11:44:52 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Then they would be better with something more like a PKM, not a battle rifle. That’s what I said. |
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Posted: 4/22/2022 11:55:44 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: https://i.postimg.cc/QMk6FZKn/knox-engineering-propellant-2.png You increase pressure. High pressure takes building a new gun and cartridge together. That's why handloaders won't be the ones to do it. Their hobby is juggling around components intended for low pressures; not creating new powders, primers, and firearms. It will take a military or commercial entity to move firearms technology out of the 1980s, which is why I'm butthurt about NGSW missing the chance. Still one of the coolest cartridge concepts. 50rd mags in the size of a 30, and lighter ammo to boot. Now just increase the COL to allow for a EPR bullet with a VLD form factor... |
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Posted: 4/22/2022 11:59:50 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Doubt it. Black Tip turns armor into concealment. We already have black tip in inventory. It is the cure for armor. Actual cover is cover against things a lot larger than what this rifle can shoot. I don't like A1, but it is effective and it penetrates perfectly well, on likely intermediate barriers like windshield glass. Exactly what are they asking it to penetrate? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Serious question- How is this better than a modern updated version of the M-4 using 855A1? Exactly what capability gap is it filling? On the MG side, how is it superior to the current para saw and what does it do better? Turns cover into concealment. This will penetrate targets at several hundred meters that M855A1 will not penetrate at the muzzle. Doubt it. Black Tip turns armor into concealment. We already have black tip in inventory. It is the cure for armor. Actual cover is cover against things a lot larger than what this rifle can shoot. I don't like A1, but it is effective and it penetrates perfectly well, on likely intermediate barriers like windshield glass. Exactly what are they asking it to penetrate? Chinese 'tile array' ceramic/uhmwpe body armor that can be had for $100 on Aliexpress, and can defeat M993 7.62 Tungsten AP within 100yd:  Cheap Level IV Armor That Can Stop M993 (AP8) Tungsten! RMA 1155 The longer core length of the 6.8 (and possibly superior tungsten sintering processes) is intended to allow penetrating these types of plates at lower impact velocities. Whether they've figured that out remains to be seen. |
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Posted: 4/22/2022 12:06:00 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I believe his point is, that although the 6.8 may fail as well, it will be for reasons that don't have too much to do with the cartridges you mentioned. Thats the shame of the NGSW; with better leadership and vision it could have produced a 6mm polymer cased rifle and MG that would move the ball forward, but will instead probably be another failed project. Also, i think you have it backwards; a massive government contract would secure the rounds future and drive civilian adoption. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: That's a really silly comparison. Why, because you think this one is cooler? Its gonna have the same logical end if it doesn't get civilian demand to drive up production. I believe his point is, that although the 6.8 may fail as well, it will be for reasons that don't have too much to do with the cartridges you mentioned. Thats the shame of the NGSW; with better leadership and vision it could have produced a 6mm polymer cased rifle and MG that would move the ball forward, but will instead probably be another failed project. Also, i think you have it backwards; a massive government contract would secure the rounds future and drive civilian adoption. SIG's case offers an interesting 6mm option. The 6x45mm is just a 5.56 necked up to 6mm. With SIG's case design, @80kpsi it could probably propel a 85-90gr 6mm VLD @ 3000fps from a 16", giving excellent effective range while retaining the 30rd magazine and keeping recoil at 7.62x39 levels, and keeping weight at nearly 5.56 brass levels. They would need to develop a new rifle / MG with a longer, ~2.4-2.5" COL to allow the longer projectile. 
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