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Posted: 4/22/2022 12:40:42 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Small arms progress is glacial. Why produce a new powder to be sprinkled in 10% of a cartridge only to pad it out with cornstarch because it's sized for 1950s tech? They sell old technology to handloaders. They can do so indefinitely. Higher performance increases the risk and decreases the fun for their market for no real gain. Without steel primers and steel or poly cases (notice Sig uses a steel base - brass risks brazing to the bolt face at high psi), without a new action, it's a chicken/egg problem. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: That data is almost 20 years old. I wonder why nothing has happened with it? https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA433982.pdf I would think Hogdon would be all over that technology. Small arms progress is glacial. Why produce a new powder to be sprinkled in 10% of a cartridge only to pad it out with cornstarch because it's sized for 1950s tech? They sell old technology to handloaders. They can do so indefinitely. Higher performance increases the risk and decreases the fun for their market for no real gain. Without steel primers and steel or poly cases (notice Sig uses a steel base - brass risks brazing to the bolt face at high psi), without a new action, it's a chicken/egg problem. Yeah, I'm skeptical. Sounds a lot like 'that guy who invented a carburetor' story. The paper that I linked to didn't give barrel lengths for any of that test data either. Any ammunition company that could deliver this kind of performance would sell a shit ton of guns and ammo to people who want the latest hotness. My skeptical guess is that this ammunition had problems that they aren't divulging. Like running so close on the ragged edge of pressure and case volume that a small error in case volume led to massive kabooms. |
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Posted: 4/22/2022 12:50:53 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My skeptical guess is that this ammunition had problems that they aren't divulging. Like running so close on the ragged edge of pressure and case volume that a small error in case volume led to massive kabooms. Brass brazing, in their case. But PV=nRT applies for everyone. Modern precision industry holding narrower variation and thus narrower margins for the same safety vs what handloaders do is another factor locking the current culture of amateurs out of advancing the art the way they used to. Without the machines and capital, there won't be technical advances, and modern handloaders are culturally blocked from considering the concepts which would induce them to pursue the technical capacity. |
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Posted: 4/22/2022 1:06:28 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Brass brazing, in their case. But PV=nRT applies for everyone. Modern precision industry holding narrower variation and thus narrower margins for the same safety vs what handloaders do is another factor locking the current culture of amateurs out of advancing the art the way they used to. Without the machines and capital, there won't be technical advances, and modern handloaders are culturally blocked from considering the concepts which would induce them to pursue the technical capacity. Respectfully, bullshit. https://thescienceofaccuracy.com/ The guys shooting 'King of 2 Miles' and other ELR type stuff would be ALL over this. And they don't lack resources. |
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Posted: 4/22/2022 1:10:01 PM EDT
[#4]
WOW - 6.8x51 - that’s a large, “full power” rifle cartridge. They’ve basically reinvented the .270 Winchester??
This cartridge will generate approximately 3x the amount of recoil energy compared to 5.56. Controllability in cyclic mode will be interesting no doubt. Also, that kinda chamber pressure will be very hard on the components - complexities of the case design notwithstanding. I wouldn’t think it’s really a great replacement for the 5.56 (maybe 7.62 NATO and 6.5 creedmore). All in all, this whole thing seems like a large step backward. It ignores all the marvelous attributes of the SCHV concept. An improved cartridge is one this, but this is ridiculous overkill. Like the ordnance pukes of the ‘50s, they really think they can have their cake and eat it too. The XM5 weighs about 8.5 lbs; it’s an AR10 size weapon ?? Col. Rene Studler would be so proud. I predict that M4 will remain quite popular for all the reasons that M16 was a better weapon for most soldiers than M14 (or AR10, FAL or G3). |
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Posted: 4/22/2022 1:10:20 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Chinese 'tile array' ceramic/uhmwpe body armor that can be had for $100 on Aliexpress, and can defeat M993 7.62 Tungsten AP within 100yd:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ND9nn4oCIbgThe longer core length of the 6.8 (and possibly superior tungsten sintering processes) is intended to allow penetrating these types of plates at lower impact velocities. Whether they've figured that out remains to be seen. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Serious question- How is this better than a modern updated version of the M-4 using 855A1? Exactly what capability gap is it filling? On the MG side, how is it superior to the current para saw and what does it do better? Turns cover into concealment. This will penetrate targets at several hundred meters that M855A1 will not penetrate at the muzzle. Doubt it. Black Tip turns armor into concealment. We already have black tip in inventory. It is the cure for armor. Actual cover is cover against things a lot larger than what this rifle can shoot. I don't like A1, but it is effective and it penetrates perfectly well, on likely intermediate barriers like windshield glass. Exactly what are they asking it to penetrate? Chinese 'tile array' ceramic/uhmwpe body armor that can be had for $100 on Aliexpress, and can defeat M993 7.62 Tungsten AP within 100yd: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ND9nn4oCIbgThe longer core length of the 6.8 (and possibly superior tungsten sintering processes) is intended to allow penetrating these types of plates at lower impact velocities. Whether they've figured that out remains to be seen. HE is the solution, not small arms. I don't doubt that someone thinks a long rod penetrator is the solution to all things armored...cough...but changing to a heavy, bulky weapon...just for a niche threat...seems silly. JMO |
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Posted: 4/22/2022 1:12:22 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: WOW - 6.8x51 - that’s a large, “full power” rifle cartridge. They’ve basically reinvented the .270 Winchester?? This cartridge will generate approximately 3x the amount of recoil energy compared to 5.56. Controllability in cyclic mode will be interesting no doubt. Also, that kinda chamber pressure will be very hard on the components - complexities of the case design notwithstanding. I wouldn’t think it’s really a great replacement for the 5.56 (maybe 7.62 NATO and 6.5 creedmore). All in all, this whole thing seems like a large step backward. It ignores all the marvelous attributes of the SCHV concept. An improved cartridge is one this, but this is ridiculous overkill. Like the ordnance pukes of the ‘50s, they really think they can have their cake and eat it too. The XM5 weighs about 8.5 lbs; it’s an AR10 size weapon ?? Col. Rene Studler would be so proud. I predict that M4 will remain quite popular for all the reasons that M16 was a better weapon for most soldiers than M14 (or AR10, FAL or G3). I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed that they basically invented the 270 Winchester in a more complex case. This seems ill advised as 270 has a fair amount of recoil and is heavy for a self defense round. |
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Posted: 4/22/2022 1:18:51 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Brass brazing, in their case. But PV=nRT applies for everyone. Modern precision industry holding narrower variation and thus narrower margins for the same safety vs what handloaders do is another factor locking the current culture of amateurs out of advancing the art the way they used to. That's quite a myopic view. Many of the 'amateurs' are doing strong work involved in putting bullets on target. Bryan Litz developed the hybrid ogive bullets while working for Berger (and himself at Applied Ballistics). The government didn't fund that advancement. Not every handloader is a Cletus cranking out barely functional 30-30 on a rusty old Lee single stage. |
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Posted: 4/22/2022 1:35:09 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: WOW - 6.8x51 - that’s a large, “full power” rifle cartridge. They’ve basically reinvented the .270 Winchester?? This cartridge will generate approximately 3x the amount of recoil energy compared to 5.56. Controllability in cyclic mode will be interesting no doubt. Also, that kinda chamber pressure will be very hard on the components - complexities of the case design notwithstanding. I wouldn’t think it’s really a great replacement for the 5.56 (maybe 7.62 NATO and 6.5 creedmore). All in all, this whole thing seems like a large step backward. It ignores all the marvelous attributes of the SCHV concept. An improved cartridge is one this, but this is ridiculous overkill. Like the ordnance pukes of the ‘50s, they really think they can have their cake and eat it too. The XM5 weighs about 8.5 lbs; it’s an AR10 size weapon ?? Col. Rene Studler would be so proud. I predict that M4 will remain quite popular for all the reasons that M16 was a better weapon for most soldiers than M14 (or AR10, FAL or G3). Worse, they've reinvented .276 Pederson and/or 276 Enfield both in +P+ form. |
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Posted: 4/22/2022 1:37:44 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Respectfully, bullshit. https://thescienceofaccuracy.com/ The guys shooting 'King of 2 Miles' and other ELR type stuff would be ALL over this. And they don't lack resources. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Brass brazing, in their case. But PV=nRT applies for everyone. Modern precision industry holding narrower variation and thus narrower margins for the same safety vs what handloaders do is another factor locking the current culture of amateurs out of advancing the art the way they used to. Without the machines and capital, there won't be technical advances, and modern handloaders are culturally blocked from considering the concepts which would induce them to pursue the technical capacity. Respectfully, bullshit. https://thescienceofaccuracy.com/ The guys shooting 'King of 2 Miles' and other ELR type stuff would be ALL over this. And they don't lack resources. None of those guys are capable of producing their own high pressure cases and primers, which is what would be needed to take advantage of these high pressure technologies and powders. |
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Posted: 4/22/2022 1:39:51 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: HE is the solution, not small arms. I don't doubt that someone thinks a long rod penetrator is the solution to all things armored...cough...but changing to a heavy, bulky weapon...just for a niche threat...seems silly. JMO Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Serious question- How is this better than a modern updated version of the M-4 using 855A1? Exactly what capability gap is it filling? On the MG side, how is it superior to the current para saw and what does it do better? Turns cover into concealment. This will penetrate targets at several hundred meters that M855A1 will not penetrate at the muzzle. Doubt it. Black Tip turns armor into concealment. We already have black tip in inventory. It is the cure for armor. Actual cover is cover against things a lot larger than what this rifle can shoot. I don't like A1, but it is effective and it penetrates perfectly well, on likely intermediate barriers like windshield glass. Exactly what are they asking it to penetrate? Chinese 'tile array' ceramic/uhmwpe body armor that can be had for $100 on Aliexpress, and can defeat M993 7.62 Tungsten AP within 100yd: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ND9nn4oCIbgThe longer core length of the 6.8 (and possibly superior tungsten sintering processes) is intended to allow penetrating these types of plates at lower impact velocities. Whether they've figured that out remains to be seen. HE is the solution, not small arms. I don't doubt that someone thinks a long rod penetrator is the solution to all things armored...cough...but changing to a heavy, bulky weapon...just for a niche threat...seems silly. JMO I completely agree; the recoil is too high, and the supply of tungsten is too low to make AP really a practical general purpose round. We should be focusing on controllable FA weapons capable of providing 6+ round bursts on a standing man at 100m to maximize chances of hitting an unarmored area, and integrating much more HE at the squad level. Milkor with computerized FCU and airbursting 40x51mm Medium Velocity grenades (800m range) is what I'd really like to see. |
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Posted: 4/22/2022 1:46:14 PM EDT
[#11]
Seems like it would be easier to just go back to the m1Garand with 30-06 AP rounds and cheaper too and just wait until someone develops phased plasma rifle in the 40 watt range
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Posted: 4/22/2022 1:48:18 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: None of those guys are capable of producing their own high pressure cases and primers, which is what would be needed to take advantage of these high pressure technologies and powders. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Brass brazing, in their case. But PV=nRT applies for everyone. Modern precision industry holding narrower variation and thus narrower margins for the same safety vs what handloaders do is another factor locking the current culture of amateurs out of advancing the art the way they used to. Without the machines and capital, there won't be technical advances, and modern handloaders are culturally blocked from considering the concepts which would induce them to pursue the technical capacity. Respectfully, bullshit. https://thescienceofaccuracy.com/ The guys shooting 'King of 2 Miles' and other ELR type stuff would be ALL over this. And they don't lack resources. None of those guys are capable of producing their own high pressure cases and primers, which is what would be needed to take advantage of these high pressure technologies and powders. Nonsense. This is not a Saturn V we are talking about. Forming a steel alloy case is not exotic technology. |
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Posted: 4/22/2022 2:06:09 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That’s what I said. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Then they would be better with something more like a PKM, not a battle rifle. That’s what I said. If I'm getting outranged by a couple dudes with a PKM on the other mountain, I don't want to return small arms fire that likely isn't going to land within a football field of where they actually are. No, I want to fly a drone overhead, locate their position, and hammer them with airbursting Carl Gustaf rounds or patrol mortars. Let's see how often Johnny Jihadi conducts those long range ambushes after that happens a few times. |
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Posted: 4/22/2022 2:19:22 PM EDT
[#14]
We've known since WW2 that small arms do a very small percentage of the killing in conventional warfare between peer/near peer nations. If we throw down with the Russians or Chinese, things like drones, armor formations, air strikes, and artillery are going to be exponentially more important than whatever small arms our infantry are using. Our small arms just need to be able to fix enemy dismounts in place so they can hit with the aforementioned things.
Where small arms really start to matter is in unconventional warfare, and I don't think 5.56 has been inadequate at killing insurgents over the last 20 years (I unfortunately have no direct experience, though). Is 5.56 perfect? No, but my opinion is that it's still at the "good enough" stage that it doesn't justify the money and logistics necessary to replace it. |
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Posted: 4/22/2022 2:20:19 PM EDT
[#15]
They run after their belt runs out so if you don’t shoot immediately they are on the reverse slope.
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Posted: 4/22/2022 2:25:30 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They run after their belt runs out so if you don’t shoot immediately they are on the reverse slope. That essentially means that those fights are fundamentally unwinnable, then. Any small arms rounds you shoot back most likely aren't going to connect or come close enough to psychologically suppress them (studies I've read indicate that small arms rounds need to typically pass within 1 - 3 meters to suppress an enemy). By the time you figure out where they're shooting from, they're already on the reverse slope. I don't have any direct experience with this stuff, so take my opinion for what it's worth. |
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Posted: 4/22/2022 2:40:54 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Videos of that thing show some serious recoil for even big guys who know what they are doing. The XM5 doesn't have a reciprocating barrel like XM250. The latter actually looked like a good design. The RM277Amicus/Genesis actually employed a recoil damping/mitigation operation that had a recip barrel, & you can see its effectiveness.  Prototype Plastic Ammo True Velocity General Dynamics Combining that with the insular polymer case made for a smooth shooting & cooler running rifle. IMArmchairO, the RM277 entry from GD/Beretta is the better rifle entry & TVCM6.8 is the better ammo (hands down). Now I'm wondering if the commercial Genesis will just get scrapped. Without the volume production the contract would have supported, there's no way the TVCM 6.8 can be manufactured in sufficient quantities to hit a competitive price point; it'll be relegated to "exotic" status. |
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Posted: 4/22/2022 2:54:52 PM EDT
[#18]
Trying to sort through all of the dissembling with everything being "lighter" without actually giving any weights...
I'm getting 13 lb. for a loaded XM5 with XM157 optic. Maybe more because I knocked 20% off .270 Win's weight as the "comparable power round" and not just cynically making it just a bit lighter than M80 as the contract stipulates. The dissembling makes me worry because I've heard this language before. When they brag about it being lighter, but name no weights or give percentages lighter (or do but don't tell you what they're comparing it to) then it's only technically lighter not practically. The extra bulk of the ammo is a big concern to me. Isn't the rule of thumb that two 20-round 7.62 NATO sized mags take up the same space as three 30-round 5.56 mags? For the same bulk you get fewer than half the rounds! And that optic... It's like OICW light. Is all of that capability actually useful in the field? Will we spend enough money on ammo to actually get the troops proficient enough to use it during a fight or will they revert to it being a heavy, complicated red-dot? |
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Posted: 4/22/2022 3:06:10 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Trying to sort through all of the dissembling with everything being "lighter" without actually giving any weights... I'm getting 13 lb. for a loaded XM5 with XM157 optic. Maybe more because I knocked 20% off .270 Win's weight as the "comparable power round" and not just cynically making it just a bit lighter than M80 as the contract stipulates. The dissembling makes me worry because I've heard this language before. When they brag about it being lighter, but name no weights or give percentages lighter (or do but don't tell you what they're comparing it to) then it's only technically lighter not practically. The extra bulk of the ammo is a big concern to me. Isn't the rule of thumb that two 20-round 7.62 NATO sized mags take up the same space as three 30-round 5.56 mags? For the same bulk you get fewer than half the rounds! And that optic... It's like OICW light. Is all of that capability actually useful in the field? Will we spend enough money on ammo to actually get the troops proficient enough to use it during a fight or will they revert to it being a heavy, complicated red-dot? Specs I've seen reported are: SIG rifle = 8.4lbs SIG Suppressor = 1.19lbs NGSW Optic ~ 2.2lbs Total = 11.79lbs Cartridge weight is estimated at 22g. Lanncer 20rd mag = 6.4oz Loaded 20rd mag = 1.37lbs Loaded NGSW= 13.16lbs |
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Posted: 4/22/2022 3:18:46 PM EDT
[#20]
 Contrast NGSW with Stoner's proposal for an AR replacement focused on more ammo, less recoil, and less weight. |
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Posted: 4/22/2022 3:24:40 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: https://i.postimg.cc/XqdWwbHR/ares-acr.jpg Contrast NGSW with Stoner's proposal for an AR replacement focused on more ammo, less recoil, and less weight. Not to mention the awesome idea of 100% tracer ammo to improve hit probability, as misses could be instantly seen and fire 'walked into' the enemy.  100 rounds of M196 tracer - full auto HK53 |
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Posted: 4/22/2022 3:36:31 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Specs I've seen reported are: SIG rifle = 8.4lbs SIG Suppressor = 1.19lbs NGSW Optic ~ 2.2lbs Total = 11.79lbs Cartridge weight is estimated at 22g. Lanncer 20rd mag = 6.4oz Loaded 20rd mag = 1.37lbs Loaded NGSW= 13.16lbs Plus sling, light, laser, etc. Here are comparable 5.56 weights: 14.5" RIS II URG with M4 LRG (Colt stock) = 2846g / 6.27 lbs 14.5" URG-I with M4 LRG (Colt stock) = 2729g / 6.02 lbs ATACR 1-8 = 763g / 1.68 lbs Surefire RC suppressor = 482g / 1.06 lbs loaded 30 round PMag = 508g / 1.12 lbs total RIS II = 4599g / 10.14 lbs total URG-I = 4482g / 9.88 lbs That's the best apples to apples (other than 10 rounds difference) I can do with currently issued stuff. |
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Posted: 4/22/2022 5:40:06 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Plus sling, light, laser, etc. Here are comparable 5.56 weights: 14.5" RIS II URG with M4 LRG (Colt stock) = 2846g / 6.27 lbs 14.5" URG-I with M4 LRG (Colt stock) = 2729g / 6.02 lbs ATACR 1-8 = 763g / 1.68 lbs Surefire RC suppressor = 482g / 1.06 lbs loaded 30 round PMag = 508g / 1.12 lbs total RIS II = 4599g / 10.14 lbs total URG-I = 4482g / 9.88 lbs That's the best apples to apples (other than 10 rounds difference) I can do with currently issued stuff. The NGWS optic should be used for your comparison. Even if the M-5 in 6.8 doesn’t pan out, the optic will still be used on the 5.56 option we end up retaining. Ultimately the big win is in the Saw replacement. We gain a lighter machine gun with much better performance. It will also have the ability to grow into the future. It also opens a path to finally begin retiring 7.62x51 weapons and then the cartridge with alternatives. 6.8/.338/30mm options. |
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Posted: 4/22/2022 5:59:08 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The NGWS optic should be used for your comparison. Even if the M-5 in 6.8 doesn’t pan out, the optic will still be used on the 5.56 option we end up retaining. Ultimately the big win is in the Saw replacement. We gain a lighter machine gun with much better performance. It will also have the ability to grow into the future. It also opens a path to finally begin retiring 7.62x51 weapons and then the cartridge with alternatives. 6.8/.338/30mm options. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Plus sling, light, laser, etc. Here are comparable 5.56 weights: 14.5" RIS II URG with M4 LRG (Colt stock) = 2846g / 6.27 lbs 14.5" URG-I with M4 LRG (Colt stock) = 2729g / 6.02 lbs ATACR 1-8 = 763g / 1.68 lbs Surefire RC suppressor = 482g / 1.06 lbs loaded 30 round PMag = 508g / 1.12 lbs total RIS II = 4599g / 10.14 lbs total URG-I = 4482g / 9.88 lbs That's the best apples to apples (other than 10 rounds difference) I can do with currently issued stuff. The NGWS optic should be used for your comparison. Even if the M-5 in 6.8 doesn’t pan out, the optic will still be used on the 5.56 option we end up retaining. Ultimately the big win is in the Saw replacement. We gain a lighter machine gun with much better performance. It will also have the ability to grow into the future. It also opens a path to finally begin retiring 7.62x51 weapons and then the cartridge with alternatives. 6.8/.338/30mm options. SIG TANGO6T is within .1 oz of the ATACR and they both use the same mount. I think his number for the SIG optic is off. Yes, should be the same weight for both You're looking at approximately: NGSW-R with no sling, laser, or light and 6 spare mags (140 rounds total) = 20.9 lbs Add 1.4 lbs per additional 20 rounds NGSW-R with no sling, laser, or light and 9 spare mags (200 rounds total) = 24.5 lbs URG-I with no sling, laser, or light and 6 spare mags (210 rounds total) = 16.6lbs Add 1.1 lbs per additional 30 rounds This is if his numbers are correct. |
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Posted: 4/22/2022 6:53:03 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: SIG TANGO6T is within .1 oz of the ATACR and they both use the same mount. I think his number for the SIG optic is off. Yes, should be the same weight for both You're looking at approximately: NGSW-R with no sling, laser, or light and 6 spare mags (140 rounds total) = 20.9 lbs Add 1.4 lbs per additional 20 rounds NGSW-R with no sling, laser, or light and 9 spare mags (200 rounds total) = 24.5 lbs URG-I with no sling, laser, or light and 6 spare mags (210 rounds total) = 16.6lbs Add 1.1 lbs per additional 30 rounds This is if his numbers are correct. The NGWS optic is a vortex option that integrates multiple technologies to give the riflemen an optic comparable to a vehicle sight. |
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Posted: 4/22/2022 6:58:41 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The NGWS optic is a vortex option that integrates multiple technologies to give the riflemen an optic comparable to a vehicle sight. It makes sense in a vehicle. Seems kind of slow and wonky for an infantry rifle. I'm looking forward to seeing it in action. |
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Posted: 4/22/2022 7:14:40 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It makes sense in a vehicle. Seems kind of slow and wonky for an infantry rifle. I'm looking forward to seeing it in action. Yeah it will be interesting, I think people get too focused on mechanics, the optic will have the battle reticle that is always displayed and will let you make snap shots. If time allows hit the range finder and let the optic do its thing so you can make hits accurate hits at range. It also will let every solider to provide more accurate SPOT reports because they have magnification and a range finder. Is it an absolute game changer, probably not, but it seems like a very good tool in the box. |
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Posted: 4/22/2022 7:27:31 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah it will be interesting, I think people get too focused on mechanics, the optic will have the battle reticle that is always displayed and will let you make snap shots. If time allows hit the range finder and let the optic do its thing so you can make hits accurate hits at range. It also will let every solider to provide more accurate SPOT reports because they have magnification and a range finder. Is it an absolute game changer, probably not, but it seems like a very good tool in the box. The rifle also has offset irons for making quick close shots. |
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Posted: 4/22/2022 7:29:12 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: WOW - 6.8x51 - that’s a large, “full power” rifle cartridge. They’ve basically reinvented the .270 Winchester?? This cartridge will generate approximately 3x the amount of recoil energy compared to 5.56. Controllability in cyclic mode will be interesting no doubt. Also, that kinda chamber pressure will be very hard on the components - complexities of the case design notwithstanding. I wouldn’t think it’s really a great replacement for the 5.56 (maybe 7.62 NATO and 6.5 creedmore). All in all, this whole thing seems like a large step backward. It ignores all the marvelous attributes of the SCHV concept. An improved cartridge is one this, but this is ridiculous overkill. Like the ordnance pukes of the ‘50s, they really think they can have their cake and eat it too. The XM5 weighs about 8.5 lbs; it’s an AR10 size weapon ?? Col. Rene Studler would be so proud. I predict that M4 will remain quite popular for all the reasons that M16 was a better weapon for most soldiers than M14 (or AR10, FAL or G3). @ParaShootist For the #'s, goto post #25. |
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Posted: 4/22/2022 8:00:02 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I completely agree; the recoil is too high, and the supply of tungsten is too low to make AP really a practical general purpose round. We should be focusing on controllable FA weapons capable of providing 6+ round bursts on a standing man at 100m to maximize chances of hitting an unarmored area, and integrating much more HE at the squad level. Milkor with computerized FCU and airbursting 40x51mm Medium Velocity grenades (800m range) is what I'd really like to see. I'm not sure what the Army is thinking is going to happen in CQB situations. Those new rifles aren't going to be very handy in tight quarters. Plus, all the accessories that are going on them are going to be heavy. The M4 was at least doable for city fighting and close quarters. This new rifle is essentially an improved 7.62 NATO which is overkill for clearing houses and run and gun city fighting. The Army could learn some lessons of the past and issue SMG's to infantryman on some kind of basis. Maybe 1 per squad or at least having some in the company armory to be issued as needed. It really is the best weapon for CQB situations and infantryman love them. I recall on my Iraq tour in 2006 some of my buddies would find old SMGs in weapons caches and actually use them on patrols. They found a few Sten SMGs and used them as their backup weapon in the gunners hatch of Humvees. We had some tiny patrol base outside of Baghdad and there was little oversight. Since they were 9mm, we had ammo for them. Fun times. |
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Posted: 4/22/2022 8:02:14 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:  Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: What does this do better than current small arms other than penetrate body armor more easily? Seems like a lot of money just for that one improvement. If this thing were a phased plasma rifle in the 40 watt range where a single mag has 3000 rounds while being the same size as current weapons, no ballistic drop over long range, etc…yes that would be worth writing a big check for. I mean if we are going to cut the big check, we ought to get some bigger bang bangs, right?  |
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Posted: 4/22/2022 8:10:11 PM EDT
[#32]
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Posted: 4/22/2022 8:39:30 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Plus sling, light, laser, etc. The NGSW optic is reportedly going to also replace the IR laser, so at least thats nice for weight. And I dont think they'll be running a light.  The XM157, developed by Vortex Optics, is a variable optic scope with 1x8 magnification. The scope also includes a “backup etched reticle, laser rangefinder, ballistic calculator, atmospheric sensor suite, compass, Intra-Soldier Wireless, visible and infrared aiming lasers, and a digital display overlay,” according to the U.S. Army. |
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Posted: 4/22/2022 9:14:38 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's quite a myopic view. Many of the 'amateurs' are doing strong work involved in putting bullets on target. Bryan Litz developed the hybrid ogive bullets while working for Berger (and himself at Applied Ballistics). The government didn't fund that advancement. Not every handloader is a Cletus cranking out barely functional 30-30 on a rusty old Lee single stage. Agreed...even guys who are well on the amateur end of the scale are capable of creating unbelievably effective ammo these days. The stuff I can make now in a short period of time and with not much effort would have been looked upon as revolutionary just a few decades ago when BCs were low and standard cup and core bullets were the name of the game. With regards to ammo, I'd actually argue that amateurs have done far more to push the limits than the military in the past few decades, especially when considering factors beyond "will it defeat _______ plates?" |
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Posted: 4/22/2022 10:36:17 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The NGSW optic is reportedly going to also replace the IR laser, so at least thats nice for weight. And I dont think they'll be running a light. https://accurateshooter.net/pix/vortexmil22x3.jpg The XM157, developed by Vortex Optics, is a variable optic scope with 1x8 magnification. The scope also includes a “backup etched reticle, laser rangefinder, ballistic calculator, atmospheric sensor suite, compass, Intra-Soldier Wireless, visible and infrared aiming lasers, and a digital display overlay,” according to the U.S. Army. Ah, gotcha. They could do the same on a lighter gun so it doesn't change the comparison. |
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Posted: 4/22/2022 10:41:12 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ah, gotcha. They could do the same on a lighter gun so it doesn't change the comparison. No but it also has to be understood that it’s an entire program. If I picked and chose from my girlfriends to create my current I’d be dating Anna Kendrick, but reality is something different |
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Posted: 4/23/2022 12:28:28 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No but it also has to be understood that it’s an entire program. If I picked and chose from my girlfriends to create my current I’d be dating Anna Kendrick, but reality is something different I don't get your analogy. You can change your girlfriend's clothes, can't you? |
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Posted: 4/23/2022 12:48:52 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Now I'm wondering if the commercial Genesis will just get scrapped. Without the volume production the contract would have supported, there's no way the TVCM 6.8 can be manufactured in sufficient quantities to hit a competitive price point; it'll be relegated to "exotic" status. The Army put out an RFP for an M240 barrel to fire new 6.8 ammunition. There's only one ammunition manufacturer that can pull that off and that's TV. It's plug and play. |
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Posted: 4/23/2022 10:17:15 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Army put out an RFP for an M240 barrel to fire new 6.8 ammunition. There's only one ammunition manufacturer that can pull that off and that's TV. It's plug and play.  The competition is over True Velocity didn't win, the 6.8 round is the SIG round. That contract will be to make .277 Fury M240 Barrels. |
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Posted: 4/23/2022 10:35:14 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed that they basically invented the 270 Winchester in a more complex case. It's more like 270 WSM, and weight/recoil issues aside, is pretty impressive to get that level of performance shrunk down to a 308 sized case. |
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Posted: 4/23/2022 10:49:32 AM EDT
[#41]
Knew Sig would win it. That said their carbine has a ton of recoil and looks incredibly uncontrollable.
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Posted: 4/23/2022 10:50:36 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's more like 270 WSM, and weight/recoil issues aside, is pretty impressive to get that level of performance shrunk down to a 308 sized case. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed that they basically invented the 270 Winchester in a more complex case. It's more like 270 WSM, and weight/recoil issues aside, is pretty impressive to get that level of performance shrunk down to a 308 sized case. It is. Military use aside, this will be a fine game cartridge. Even in all-brass cases w/ the limitations they will place on pressures, it is a winner. AND....it introduces quick twist to the .270 caliber, something the game fields have lacked since 1925. This bodes very well for us handloaders and hunters in the future. The door has been opened to longer bullets that the standard ".270" caliber & 10" twist was less able to stabilize. I wonder if this thing in the end will pan out to be a bigger boon for us Fudds than it is for .mil... |
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Posted: 4/23/2022 10:56:05 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Knew Sig would win it. That said their carbine has a ton of recoil and looks incredibly uncontrollable. Quote HistoryQuoted: Knew Sig would win it. That said their carbine has a ton of recoil and looks incredibly uncontrollable. From my post #25. No two ways about it. Everything said about shootability of the M14/M1/FAL/G3 can be said about this new iteration of the Battle Rifle. W/ one caveat. This new one will in actual carry-mode be somewhat heavier (optics, etc) which will tame recoil a little. A little. Quoted: Quoted: Videos of that thing show some serious recoil for even big guys who know what they are doing. Physics be no liar. Recoil; 6.8/.277 Fury SIG: 135 @ 3000 fps, 9 lb rifle = 15.7 ft lbs. 7.62 NATO (e.g M14) : 147 @ 2800 fps, 9 lb rifle = 14.1 ft lbs. .30'06 (e.g, M1 Garand): 150 @ 2800 fps, 9.5 lb rifle = 14.3 ft lbs. This is a Battle Rifle, with all the "luggage" (+ and -) that brings along with it. |
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Posted: 4/23/2022 10:58:41 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's more like 270 WSM, and weight/recoil issues aside, is pretty impressive to get that level of performance shrunk down to a 308 sized case. 308 sized case out of a short barrel |
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Posted: 4/23/2022 11:07:40 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The competition is over True Velocity didn't win, the 6.8 round is the SIG round. That contract will be to make .277 Fury M240 Barrels. How are you going to put that kind of pressure in an M240? |
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Posted: 4/23/2022 11:28:18 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How are you going to put that kind of pressure in an M240? The M240 can handle it, just throw on a new barrel with an appropriate size gas port. The brass case head has always been the weak link limiting performance. This solves the problem. Edit: Might also need to slightly modify the feed tray geometry for feeding. |
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Posted: 4/23/2022 11:36:27 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Specs I've seen reported are: SIG rifle = 8.4lbs SIG Suppressor = 1.19lbs NGSW Optic ~ 2.2lbs Total = 11.79lbs Cartridge weight is estimated at 22g. Lanncer 20rd mag = 6.4oz Loaded 20rd mag = 1.37lbs Loaded NGSW= 13.16lbs Worth noting, that is an increase of 2.5lbs over the M4A1(SOCOM Barrel), for a loss of 10 rounds per magazine. |
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Posted: 4/23/2022 11:38:31 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The NGSW optic is reportedly going to also replace the IR laser, so at least thats nice for weight. And I dont think they'll be running a light. https://accurateshooter.net/pix/vortexmil22x3.jpg The XM157, developed by Vortex Optics, is a variable optic scope with 1x8 magnification. The scope also includes a “backup etched reticle, laser rangefinder, ballistic calculator, atmospheric sensor suite, compass, Intra-Soldier Wireless, visible and infrared aiming lasers, and a digital display overlay,” according to the U.S. Army. Wonder what the battery life is on that? 1hr? |
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Posted: 4/23/2022 12:30:46 PM EDT
[#49]
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Posted: 4/23/2022 1:02:28 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: DoD Announces $4.5 Billion NGSW Firm Fixed Contract The beginning of the end for the AR series. LOL. Like the XM8. |
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