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Posted: 8/29/2019 2:09:10 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Speaking of straw man arguments |
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Posted: 8/29/2019 2:17:13 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lol I'm comparing the pistols wielded by the finest direct action troops on the planet vs us Marshall's who will probably never clear leather with their sidearm. Considerably more valid than bringing F1 drivers into the discussion. Go ahead and justify why Marshall's need a 2k plus race gun in their holster. I'll be here all night. Nothing but a look at me move. 
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Posted: 8/29/2019 2:19:04 AM EDT
[#3]
The money stays in country vs some EU nation. Didn't read the whole thread but it had to be mentioned before.
No one gripes about local LE having Big 3 vehicles versus imports. |
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Posted: 8/29/2019 2:21:57 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nice straw man argument. Brilliant comparison! Army rangers and socom make due with glocks, the beretta no, and signs in active war zones. I'm sure the fucking us Marshall's need STI sidearms to do their jobs, lol. Nice try. Massive waste of taxpayer money so they can be "special". Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Formula 1 drivers are chumps and they should be able to win with an IROC Camaro from the 80s. Lol. Hating on the police. |
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Posted: 8/29/2019 2:27:01 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You could put a laser guided heat seeking missile launcher on it, but that wouldn't make it modern. That would be like taking a model T and dressing it up with a modern body and interior and saying it's the same thing as an F150. You can put whatever doodads on it you want, but the frame and engine are still model T. To make a long story very short, suffice it to say there are good reasons why the Hi Power exists, and why virtually all semi autos have copied its design. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
But what makes it outdated? I refer to "modern variants" having a rail and adjustable sights, and high capacity in the case of the 2011. To make a long story very short, suffice it to say there are good reasons why the Hi Power exists, and why virtually all semi autos have copied its design. |
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Posted: 8/29/2019 2:28:00 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lol. Muh tax dollars. Don't hear you whining when DOD purchases 10 different uniform designs in as many years or goes through several tests on the latest and greatest new rifle design to replace one that's not broken but guys who go after the worst of the worst fugitive criminals , nah fuck them. Lol. Hating on the police. |
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Posted: 8/29/2019 2:30:06 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So, a non answer. Weapons tech isn't like vehicle tech, it isn't so linear. The U.S. Military has been using the M2 Browning for nearly 90 years. Hell, you're posting on a website dedicated to a rifle that's 60+ years old and is still the preeminent military rifle on Earth. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
But what makes it outdated? I refer to "modern variants" having a rail and adjustable sights, and high capacity in the case of the 2011. To make a long story very short, suffice it to say there are good reasons why the Hi Power exists, and why virtually all semi autos have copied its design. |
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Posted: 8/29/2019 2:31:55 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You're wasting your breath. There's two kinds of people upset at this purchase. Delusional glock fags who think it's the be all end all and cop haters. You can't reason with either of them. |
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Posted: 8/29/2019 2:35:38 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lol, brilliant reach of logic there. I hate the police because I dont think they need a 2k race gun in their holster to do their job. How the fuck would you know what I have or haven't "whined" about? Ever think I might carry creds myself? Another nutswinger. Muh 1911! Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Lol. Muh tax dollars. Don't hear you whining when DOD purchases 10 different uniform designs in as many years or goes through several tests on the latest and greatest new rifle design to replace one that's not broken but guys who go after the worst of the worst fugitive criminals , nah fuck them. Lol. Hating on the police. 
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Posted: 8/29/2019 2:35:38 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why not. You are just taking up the excess trigger stroke during the recoil impulse and when your sights hit paper again, you just finish it. You are riding the trigger on the point where it resets, which has a firmer feel. Very short pull, very fast to shoot. 
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Posted: 8/29/2019 2:41:52 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lol, your iq matches your shoe size I'd guess. I'll take any off the rack pistol and outshooting 90% of the federal and state leo's in this country. You think those marshals are kicking down doors with nothing but their sti pistols? Fucking lol. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You're wasting your breath. There's two kinds of people upset at this purchase. Delusional glock fags who think it's the be all end all and cop haters. You can't reason with either of them. 
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Posted: 8/29/2019 2:42:41 AM EDT
[#12]
Bitching about a 2k gun is humorous when you realize that the feds are being issued Motorola APX 8000 portable handheld radios that cost between $3000 and $5000 EACH not counting all the accessories. Start adding that up over the numbers of all the Deputy US Marshals and not just the USMS SOG and then add all the agents working ATF, FBI , USSS and other alphabet agencies.
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Posted: 8/29/2019 2:45:08 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lol I'm comparing the pistols wielded by the finest direct action troops on the planet vs us Marshall's who will probably never clear leather with their sidearm. Considerably more valid than bringing F1 drivers into the discussion. Go ahead and justify why Marshall's need a 2k plus race gun in their holster. I'll be here all night. Nothing but a look at me move. |
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Posted: 8/29/2019 2:48:57 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Bitching about a 2k gun is humorous when you realize that the feds are being issued Motorola APX 8000 portable handheld radios that cost between $3000 and $5000 EACH not counting all the accessories. Start adding that up over the numbers of all the Deputy US Marshals and not just the USMS SOG and then add all the agents working ATF, FBI , USSS and other alphabet agencies. |
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Posted: 8/29/2019 2:51:42 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lol, brilliant reach of logic there. I hate the police because I dont think they need a 2k race gun in their holster to do their job. How the fuck would you know what I have or haven't "whined" about? Ever think I might carry creds myself? Another nutswinger. Muh 1911! |
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Posted: 8/29/2019 2:51:42 AM EDT
[#16]
There are accuracy and split time benefits to this platform.
It is an excellent platform for occasional use and a high maintenance to use ratio, It is a shitty platform for heavy use and high use to low maintenance ratio. A good shooter will be hampered by a DAO model. I am glad they don’t have something stupid like a 96D or NYPD Glock trigger. It is not likely the vast majority of users will be at a level to capitalize on accuracy and speed benefits over a Glock, Sig, Beretta, M&P, HK, etc. striker or DA/SA platform. With shitbags on welfare, section 8, and EBT, shitbags on SSDI, illegals reaping in free stuff on the taxpaying citizen’s dime, complete drain refugees being imported, cheating/scamming VA benefit fraud, people drinking/drugging themselves into dialysis, strokes, HIV, HEP C, and bypass surgery then getting SSDI and Medicare, USMS SOG spending extra on some pistols is too low to register on my GAF list. |
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Posted: 8/29/2019 2:53:57 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Jesus. It pained me to give $1500 for my P25 radio. What is so special about those? 
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Posted: 8/29/2019 2:57:19 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There are accuracy and split time benefits to this platform. |
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Posted: 8/29/2019 2:59:03 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not according to Glock63 though I'm still waiting for his clarification on that. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
There are accuracy and split time benefits to this platform.
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Posted: 8/29/2019 3:00:37 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
He'll just say you're dumb. He has no real argument. 
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Posted: 8/29/2019 3:09:31 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
He'll just say you're dumb. He has no real argument. |
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Posted: 8/29/2019 3:16:12 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lol, I've already made every valid point needed. I'm glad you can carry the exact firearm that you are the most proficient with. Theres nothing more important. To pretend an sti provides some measurable advantage in any realistic LEO scenario is laughable. Sorry if my opinion ruffled feathers. I'm sure those marshals do way more DI than the best socom has to offer. You guys also obviously think they do it with sidearms only too I guess. Why stop at sti? Why not custom nighthawk 1911's? |
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Posted: 8/29/2019 3:17:12 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lol, I've already made every valid point needed. I'm glad you can carry the exact firearm that you are the most proficient with. Theres nothing more important. To pretend an sti provides some measurable advantage in any realistic LEO scenario is laughable. Sorry if my opinion ruffled feathers. 
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Posted: 8/29/2019 3:18:49 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The fact that you can't admit the 2011 offers advantages over the pig that is glock speaks volumes. Hey, you do you and I'll do me and I'll rejoice that the Marshals got the gov to pay for the 2011 instead of some funky new fangled keyboard for their compiters. |
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Posted: 8/29/2019 3:18:54 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Who cares. |
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Posted: 8/29/2019 3:20:27 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You're right, and I feel dumb for getting involved in this argument. Sorry if I offended anyone. It's completely irrelevant |
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Posted: 8/29/2019 3:22:52 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Jesus. It pained me to give $1500 for my P25 radio. What is so special about those? ALL-BAND OPERATION 4 Bands in 1 Radio: 7/800 MHz, VHF and UHF Range 1 and Range 2 bands Modes and Protocols include: Analog MDC-1200 and QCII, Digital P25, Conventional or Trunked, Smartnet / SmartZone, clear or secure, repeater or direct Add FPP to those for specialized groups radios and you have every bell and whistle known to man. 
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Posted: 8/29/2019 3:23:03 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The fact that you can't admit the 2011 offers advantages over the pig that is glock speaks volumes. Hey, you do you and I'll do me and I'll rejoice that the Marshals got the gov to pay for the 2011 instead of some funky new fangled keyboard for their compiters. |
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Posted: 8/29/2019 3:28:32 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Lol I'm comparing the pistols wielded by the finest direct action troops on the planet vs us Marshall's who will probably never clear leather with their sidearm. Considerably more valid than bringing F1 drivers into the discussion. Go ahead and justify why Marshall's need a 2k plus race gun in their holster. I'll be here all night. Nothing but a look at me move.  FOX13 Investigates: Behind-the-scenes with the U.S. Marshals |
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Posted: 8/29/2019 3:31:37 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Pig that is Glock? I bet a g19 or similar model is lighter and smaller than the sti with the same capacity and barrel length. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The fact that you can't admit the 2011 offers advantages over the pig that is glock speaks volumes. Hey, you do you and I'll do me and I'll rejoice that the Marshals got the gov to pay for the 2011 instead of some funky new fangled keyboard for their compiters. |
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Posted: 8/29/2019 3:32:38 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Deputy US Marshals working fugitive task forces around the country clear leather on a daily basis. They are kicking in doors and hunting felons. The USMS SOG is the US Marshals SWAT team and they are based out of Camp Beauregard, LA.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbibMNKRsGM |
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Posted: 8/29/2019 3:34:40 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah it's a fucking pig. You like it ,good for you. I don't judge. But don't blow smoke up.my ass and try to.convince me it's better because I ain't no rookie. You like a shitty trigger, shitty grip angle, shitty sights., well, knock yourself out. |
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Posted: 8/29/2019 3:35:40 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It doesn't in the real world, and that's the point in was trying to portray. Either way, it's a stupid, immaterial thing to argue about and in regret it. I love departments that allow officers to carry personally owned weapons they qualify with. Nothing is more important than carrying a firearm you're confident in I'm pushing hard for rmr adoption in our little county sherriff's office. Apologies to everyone involved in this argument. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The fact that you can't admit the 2011 offers advantages over the pig that is glock speaks volumes. Hey, you do you and I'll do me and I'll rejoice that the Marshals got the gov to pay for the 2011 instead of some funky new fangled keyboard for their compiters. 
Eta: I out shoot the glock shooters with their own Pistols. It makes an impression .when instructing. |
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Posted: 8/29/2019 3:36:41 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No hard feelings. To each his own. And I'm drunk. All hail the drunks. |
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Posted: 8/29/2019 3:51:46 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've overindulged tonight as well. Be safe! Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
No hard feelings. To each his own. And I'm drunk. All hail the drunks.
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Posted: 8/29/2019 4:02:53 AM EDT
[#36]
Lol wow.
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Posted: 8/29/2019 4:09:47 AM EDT
[#37]
Lol what motherfucker shit gets real when you're talking about personal duty pieces.
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Posted: 8/29/2019 4:18:40 AM EDT
[#38]
 P&S ModCast 204 - STI International Here's the STI Mil/LE rep talking about why their pistols are the best. |
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Posted: 8/29/2019 4:34:05 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They use the exact same holster as a regular 1911 with a rail or a weapon light. I carried one for almost a decade. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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STI switched owners in 2018. The new owners poured a shitload of money and machinery into developing a duty-ready pistol. They also pared the line of pistols down to a Comp line and Duty line. Further, they had the magazines re-designed and switched the mag manufacture to a major magazine company. The new mags are nothing like the old mags that needed to be "tuned." They had Dawson of Dawson Precision come on as a consultant to train all of the gunsmiths who assemble the guns and improve processes. I am purchasing one, at the special guy price, and will carry it on duty after I get about 2k rounds and a lot of draws and manipulation practice with it. It will replace my Nighthawk Costa. The real problem with STI's for duty is duty holster availability. |
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Posted: 8/29/2019 8:43:01 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is for SOG. Not the whole agency. And there aren't very many members of SOG. Just anecdotally, I have met quite a few DUSM's. I have only met one SOG guy. Quote HistoryQuoted: This is for SOG. Not the whole agency. And there aren't very many members of SOG. Just anecdotally, I have met quite a few DUSM's. I have only met one SOG guy. And the gun has been a hit. “As we sit right now from the development of that gun that was done jointly with the Marshals and other guys, we’re now in over 60 departments in 19 states selling that model specifically,” said Pierson. “So, what we ended up developing for [the USMS] as their go-to-gun has now been our primary production model for all of law enforcement. |
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Posted: 8/29/2019 9:43:55 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Straight facts. It’s why GLOCK dominates any shooting sport that involves shooting fast. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I have the opposite opinion. One of the reason I like Glocks is the trigger for closer, rapid shots. It's the same shot to shot (unlike DA/SA), it's not as long as DAO. If you ride the reset, I find it to be a very fast shooting gun (while hitting paper). Not so much. |
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Posted: 8/29/2019 9:52:54 AM EDT
[#42]
It's a nice pistol for a relatively special use application. For a regular cop driving around, eating donuts, and making orthodontist appointments for the kids, it might be a bit of overkill. I like my Glock because it's light, cheap, and way more than accurate enough for the job. Police work isn't like some kind of Hollywood action movie. And really my handgun choice is really not that important. It's not like we're allowed or even encouraged to use them. I get more geeked about holsters and stuff. If you want to hear a bunch of cops really get into a fashion-driven purse fight start discussing body armor.
Specialized units and stuff are what drive innovation. So it's a fairly important development when someone chooses this or that platform. But it doesn't really change the reality that most of us don't really need to sink that kind of cost into doing the job. |
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Posted: 8/29/2019 11:09:34 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You mean win with a car that was made before the Model T. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Formula 1 drivers are chumps and they should be able to win with an IROC Camaro from the 80s. Materials science has evolved which is why we have polymer framed guns. They are lighter and cheaper. Does that make them better? If you want lighter and to spend less money. At the end of the day they both have a barrel locked into a slide that unlocks as the slide moves rearward. A 2011 accomplishes that in a slightly different way than Glock/Sig/etc. They really aren't that much different except a striker fired trigger can never be as good as a hammer fired trigger. Good triggers make shooting precisely easier. That is why there is an enormous aftermarket for AR15 triggers that don't suck ass. There is also an enormous aftermarket for glock triggers that suck less ass. I have one in a G17. It sucks less than a standard G17 trigger. If a small unit of high speed Marshals decide that a better handgun is beneficial to them... great. The 2011 being derived from a design that is older than a Glock doesn't make it inferior. It may have different service requirements. So what? |
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Posted: 8/29/2019 11:18:50 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nice straw man argument. Brilliant comparison! Army rangers and socom make due with glocks, the beretta no, and signs in active war zones. I'm sure the fucking us Marshall's need STI sidearms to do their jobs, lol. Nice try. Massive waste of taxpayer money so they can be "special". Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Formula 1 drivers are chumps and they should be able to win with an IROC Camaro from the 80s. Quoted: No kidding, as if the success of match toys translates into street use. Glocks are more than adequate for their intended purpose, and anyone who cant shoot one to an acceptable level of combat accuracy isnt worth a fuck as a pistol shot to begin with. Same goes for nearly every other prominent auto pistol on the market. It's not about an acceptable level of 'combat accuracy' its about choosing equipment that makes doing the job easier. 2011s are easier to shoot fast with a higher level of precision than striker fired guns. It is why they dominate competitions. There are a handful of guys like Dave Sevigny who have taken a Glock to a level of competition that most never achieve. "tactical" guys love to shit on competition shooting and gear. I was talking about this once with a guy who is .mil reserve, former active duty, and current LEO, and accomplished competitor. A guy he works with told him 'there's not a timer running in a gunfight', he responded... "oh yes there is, there just isn't a beep." Lots of stuff has made the crossover from 'gamer' gear to the tactical world. Red dots on pistols is a big one. Open shooters have been using red dots on handguns for decades. It took optics companies time to come up with a red dot that was small enough and rugged enough to be mounted on a slide and survive. Now it is the new hotness for all the 'Roland Specials' and similar. My comment about F1 cars was in reference to guys with a significant level of skill optimizing their equipment to be better at what they do. They could save some money and shoot the firearms equivalent of an IROC, the Glock. A small unit has decided that a more expensive handgun makes them better at their job. Of all the things I can get pissed about the government wasting money on, this isn't one of them. |
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Posted: 8/29/2019 11:21:25 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Safariland ALS I used at work 10 years ago exposed a tiny part of the back of the trigger guard of my G17 / TLR-1 combo. Unless you reached in with a coat hanger, bent into a hook, like a back-alley abortionist, you weren't going to pull that trigger while holstered (and even then, it would take some SERIOUS finagling, especially with the NY1 trigger setup). Anyone who tries to sell that as a serious safety issue is full of shit. While it wasn't integral to the function of the holster (as far as I could tell), and could have been modified to give 100% complete coverage, it wasn't anything like some people describe. I'm glad you got a good one, but a ton of 63 series ALS holsters are unsafe to carry a safety-less striker fired handgun in, and a ton of those holsters are still floating around in active service because the vast majority of the people who purchase them don't even begin to wonder if a factory condition Level 3 holster from the top name in LE holsters is a dangerous piece of shit, they just buy it and carry the gun around. |
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Posted: 8/29/2019 11:26:01 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My comment about F1 cars was in reference to guys with a significant level of skill optimizing their equipment to be better at what they do. They could save some money and shoot the firearms equivalent of an IROC, the Glock. A small unit has decided that a more expensive handgun makes them better at their job. Of all the things I can get pissed about the government wasting money on, this isn't one of them. |
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Posted: 8/29/2019 11:37:48 AM EDT
[#47]
I love this thread.
Gamer vs. Timmy death match. |
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Posted: 8/29/2019 11:51:53 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I love this thread. Gamer vs. Timmy death match. Because Timmy will never come to an actual match. 
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Posted: 8/29/2019 11:53:44 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I love this thread. Gamer vs. Timmy death match. Because Timmy will never come to an actual match.
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Posted: 8/29/2019 11:54:07 AM EDT
[#50]
1911 type pistols don’t take well to double stack magazines. Delta found this out with the ParaOrd/Baer pistols, and the STI 40s&w.
For competition where you can baby your mags and tweak your pistol before every match, sure. The Wilson EDC9 is a fantastic pistol, but not totally a 1911. Should have just gone to Wilson and asked for a larger version. The new Glocks have an improved trigger, still not great. The HK VP9 has a great trigger and they make a long slide and button mag release version now. Shit, even HRT doesn’t run 1911s any longer. A friend in SO runs a STI for 2/3gun and it is indeed a very nice pistol. |
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