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Posted: 12/20/2018 10:55:16 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Good point. You should definitely not vote for Bush again. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Well in that case nobody did more to help Iranian hegemony along then Bush by inadvertently handing it over to Iran ostensibly. Great strategeeery! You should definitely not vote for Bush again. |
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Posted: 12/20/2018 10:57:01 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Probably the same amount as during "don't ask don't tell " always some undercover pole smokers and turd burglars hiding Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
How many trannies are there in the US armed forces? How many trannies are impeding the ability of the armed forces to do its job? FTR I have no bones to pick with trannys I just think it's funny that GD is so emotional it flips and flops around and issue it DOES have a problem with because muh feels. |
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Posted: 12/20/2018 10:57:05 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have nothing against killing people that have earned a killing. It is the fundamental job of the military to kill the enemy and break their shit, but it should never be done lightly and it should violent and quick. Occupations are always bad juju in the long run. 17 years in Afghanistan and we haven't made enough progress to substantially reduce our foot print without losing all of our objectives? That's not acceptable. How does it ever end? |
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Posted: 12/20/2018 10:57:53 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I never said they were defeated. Who are we bombing targets for because all signs point to no one fucking knows. What business do we have in another foreign county? Tell me? Isolationism doesn’t work. |
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Posted: 12/20/2018 10:59:16 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You're not answering the question. What is the required verifiable and attainable conditions for "victory"? You have no answer and get whiny when called on it. Give me a plan with an end victory condition, the forces needed for it, and the ultimate cost needed that is NOT on an infinite timescale with limitless resources spent. Because currently we don't have ANY of that except "keep our troops there to kill bad guys at whatever cost". |
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Posted: 12/20/2018 10:59:57 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What signs are you referring to? Isolationism doesn’t work. |
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Posted: 12/20/2018 11:00:13 PM EDT
[#7]
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Posted: 12/20/2018 11:00:15 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You're not answering the question. What is the required verifiable and attainable conditions for "victory"? You have no answer and get whiny when called on it. Give me a plan with an end victory condition, the forces needed for it, and the ultimate cost needed that is NOT on an infinite timescale with limitless resources spent. Because currently we don't have ANY of that except "keep our troops there to kill bad guys at whatever cost". Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: Ok... and that says what about a DETERMINISTIC END-STATE? Give us an actual state which can be obtained to ensure that does not happen, which at the same time is not "keep our troops over there forever." You can't. Give me a plan with an end victory condition, the forces needed for it, and the ultimate cost needed that is NOT on an infinite timescale with limitless resources spent. Because currently we don't have ANY of that except "keep our troops there to kill bad guys at whatever cost". What is the end state goal? Is it achievable? At what point does a General send this message: https://www.archives.gov/publications/prologue/2015/summer/war-message.html "The mission of this Allied Force was fulfilled at 0241, local time, May 7th, 1945." |
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Posted: 12/20/2018 11:00:16 PM EDT
[#9]
I am imagining herds of basement dwellers, sitting in front of their computers, veins popping out of their forehead, furiously googling people and terms they had never heard before so they can pretend to know what they are talking about when they argue.
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Posted: 12/20/2018 11:01:28 PM EDT
[#10]
There was a time when the USA wasn't so interested in being World Police. Maybe we need to get back to that, especially if it allows us to deal with the failed nation-state on our southern border.
Wherever the standard of freedom and independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will her heart, her benedictions and her prayers be. But she goes not abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own. She will recommend the general cause, by the countenance of her voice, and the benignant sympathy of her example. She well knows that by once enlisting under other banners than her own, were they even the banners of foreign independence, she would involve herself, beyond the power of extrication, in all the wars of interest and intrigue, of individual avarice, envy, and ambition, which assume the colors and usurp the standard of freedom. The fundamental maxims of her policy would insensibly change from liberty to force. The frontlet upon her brows would no longer beam with the ineffable splendor of freedom and independence; but in its stead would soon be substituted an imperial diadem, flashing in false and tarnished lustre the murky radiance of dominion and power. She might become the dictatress of the world: she would be no longer the ruler of her own spirit. --John Quincy Adams, 1821 |
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Posted: 12/20/2018 11:02:10 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And they were required to keep their sexual preferences out of the mission, preserving unit cohesion. One of the few things that Clinton got right. Now it's a different story, and is the military better for it?  white knighting Clinton now!
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Posted: 12/20/2018 11:02:26 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I am imagining herds of basement dwellers, sitting in front of their computers, veins popping out of their forehead, furiously googling people and terms they had never heard before so they can pretend to know what they are talking about when they argue. Lol. I can make dumb posts too. 
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Posted: 12/20/2018 11:03:25 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What signs are you referring to? Isolationism doesn’t work. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: I never said they were defeated. Who are we bombing targets for because all signs point to no one fucking knows. What business do we have in another foreign county? Tell me? Isolationism doesn’t work. 
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Posted: 12/20/2018 11:03:39 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There was a time when the USA wasn't so interested in being World Police. Maybe we need to get back to that, especially if it allows us to deal with the failed nation-state on our southern border. Wherever the standard of freedom and independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will her heart, her benedictions and her prayers be. But she goes not abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own. She will recommend the general cause, by the countenance of her voice, and the benignant sympathy of her example. She well knows that by once enlisting under other banners than her own, were they even the banners of foreign independence, she would involve herself, beyond the power of extrication, in all the wars of interest and intrigue, of individual avarice, envy, and ambition, which assume the colors and usurp the standard of freedom. The fundamental maxims of her policy would insensibly change from liberty to force. The frontlet upon her brows would no longer beam with the ineffable splendor of freedom and independence; but in its stead would soon be substituted an imperial diadem, flashing in false and tarnished lustre the murky radiance of dominion and power. She might become the dictatress of the world: she would be no longer the ruler of her own spirit. --John Quincy Adams, 1821 |
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Posted: 12/20/2018 11:04:55 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There was a time when the USA wasn't so interested in being World Police. Maybe we need to get back to that, especially if it allows us to deal with the failed nation-state on our southern border. Wherever the standard of freedom and independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will her heart, her benedictions and her prayers be. But she goes not abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own. She will recommend the general cause, by the countenance of her voice, and the benignant sympathy of her example. She well knows that by once enlisting under other banners than her own, were they even the banners of foreign independence, she would involve herself, beyond the power of extrication, in all the wars of interest and intrigue, of individual avarice, envy, and ambition, which assume the colors and usurp the standard of freedom. The fundamental maxims of her policy would insensibly change from liberty to force. The frontlet upon her brows would no longer beam with the ineffable splendor of freedom and independence; but in its stead would soon be substituted an imperial diadem, flashing in false and tarnished lustre the murky radiance of dominion and power. She might become the dictatress of the world: she would be no longer the ruler of her own spirit. --John Quincy Adams, 1821 |
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Posted: 12/20/2018 11:05:08 PM EDT
[#16]
Trump needs a nationalist defense secretary and one who is loyal to Trump's agenda.
Mattis was a globalist and was antagonistic to Trump in too many ways. Apparently Mattis was not up front about his strong liberal and globalist views when he was interviewed for the job. |
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Posted: 12/20/2018 11:06:42 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Trump needs a nationalist defense secretary and one who is loyal to Trump's agenda. Mattis was a globalist and was antagonistic to Trump in too many ways. Apparently Mattis was not up front about his strong liberal and globalist views when he was interviewed for the job. |
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Posted: 12/20/2018 11:07:26 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It has worked for countless countries and it is not binary. Total leftist bullshit. |
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Posted: 12/20/2018 11:09:08 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This isn't good. When it comes to war, Mattis is the subject matter expert. Trump should be following his advice. What does Trump know about war? Does he really think he knows more than the generals? I am grateful that Trump stopped Hillary. I was hoping that in time he could have been molded into a capable leader that displayed rational behavior. But with each passing day, I can only conclude that the guy is a hopeless fucktard. Trump is done. There's no way he can win re-election. He'll be lucky if he finishes out his present term. I heard an interview with some Democrat Congressman on Bloomberg this week about the Syria pullout, the host and the Congressman were positively ecstatic about the idea of a power vacuum in Syria, Russia and Iran moving in to enhance their positions, saying Trump needed to expand forces there instead of withdraw and how the Ds would exploit his move for their gain. I can't remember Democrats ever previously being pro-war... Kharn |
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Posted: 12/20/2018 11:10:46 PM EDT
[#20]
Never understood the Mattis love here. He is a good guy and a good officer as far as I know.
But he is also a Leftist. Always has been. |
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Posted: 12/20/2018 11:11:24 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Syria is apparently more important than everything else in the DOD
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Posted: 12/20/2018 11:12:00 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
New Zealand & Switzerland for sure but who else? |
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Posted: 12/20/2018 11:12:43 PM EDT
[#23]
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Posted: 12/20/2018 11:12:44 PM EDT
[#24]
Time for him to go.
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Posted: 12/20/2018 11:14:39 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
New Zealand & Switzerland for sure but who else? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: It has worked for countless countries and it is not binary. Total leftist bullshit.  There is a nice middle ground we should strive to get to.
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Posted: 12/20/2018 11:17:04 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So if we voted for Trump then we're not allowed to criticize his mistakes? Honestly it's like a bunch of bipolar women. It's no wonder there are so many curse threads. The funny part is grown men acting exactly like they describe women acting while claiming to be the cool calm voice of reason. |
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Posted: 12/20/2018 11:18:34 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Meh, he stayed in the job about as long as other SECDEFs. I don't remember the nashing of teeth when Obama's 4 SECDEFs left their position. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/332415/IMG_20181220_182301_jpg-779337.JPG
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Posted: 12/20/2018 11:18:38 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This isn't good. When it comes to war, Mattis is the subject matter expert. Trump should be following his advice. What does Trump know about war? Does he really think he knows more than the generals? I am grateful that Trump stopped Hillary. I was hoping that in time he could have been molded into a capable leader that displayed rational behavior. But with each passing day, I can only conclude that the guy is a hopeless fucktard. Trump is done. There's no way he can win re-election. He'll be lucky if he finishes out his present term. |
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Posted: 12/20/2018 11:19:19 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Troop reduction happened. Obama reduced forces from 100,000 to 9,800 and the Taliban seized or contests 55% of Afghanistan now. If you oppose US forces staying in Afghanistan, an interesting guy to read is Bill Roggio's Long War journal. A lot of what everyone is debating on this thread he already covers Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Call me crazy but I think getting out of Syria and a deep troop reduction in Afghanistan is real winning and if Gen. Hand-Grenade and the saber rattlers in Congress take offence then, well, fuck them. Let's put it all in perspective.... Twelve Americans are murdered every day by illegal aliens, according to statistics released by Rep. Steve King, R-Iowa. If those numbers are correct, it translates to 4,380 Americans murdered annually by illegal aliens. That's 21,900 since Sept. 11, 2001. Even if those numbers are off by 25% illegals kill more Americans in a year than OBL or the Japanese did at Pearl Harbor. Let that sink in. Now, where should our troop strength be concentrated.....On our border or in some sand-land? |
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Posted: 12/20/2018 11:19:43 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
LOL neither are you hence my response. You just keep digging deeper as if I ultimately care enough to play along. If you’re playing games. I’ll either play till I’m bored or just ignore you and so far I’m about to just move onto other posts from other people rather than waste my time playing your game by your rules What is the "win condition" for the US to allow us to bring our troops home that isn't open ended? You aren't answering because you have no answer and know your position is unsustainable. |
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Posted: 12/20/2018 11:22:30 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's not the criticism, it's the autistic shrieking and epic level extremes. The fits of rage. Now people are claiming to have never voted in the election because they knew all along. They are white knighting Obama and Clinton. I wouldn't be surprised if a few dicks we're sucked before the night is over, because mah mattis. Honestly it's like a bunch of bipolar women. It's no wonder there are so many curse threads. The funny part is grown men acting exactly like they describe women acting while claiming to be the cool calm voice of reason. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
So if we voted for Trump then we're not allowed to criticize his mistakes? Honestly it's like a bunch of bipolar women. It's no wonder there are so many curse threads. The funny part is grown men acting exactly like they describe women acting while claiming to be the cool calm voice of reason. The voice of reason is funny, but a typical tactic. |
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Posted: 12/20/2018 11:22:34 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's not the criticism, it's the autistic shrieking and epic level extremes. The fits of rage. Now people are claiming to have never voted in the election because they knew all along. They are white knighting Obama and Clinton. I wouldn't be surprised if a few dicks we're sucked before the night is over, because mah mattis. Honestly it's like a bunch of bipolar women. It's no wonder there are so many curse threads. The funny part is grown men acting exactly like they describe women acting while claiming to be the cool calm voice of reason. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
So if we voted for Trump then we're not allowed to criticize his mistakes? Honestly it's like a bunch of bipolar women. It's no wonder there are so many curse threads. The funny part is grown men acting exactly like they describe women acting while claiming to be the cool calm voice of reason. |
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Posted: 12/20/2018 11:23:06 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It would be easier to list who isn't. How many nations are involved in police actions or have foreign bases scattered all over the world? How many nations who claim not to be are de facto isolationist in practice? I don't like that label anyway as it is often used as a false dichotomy, it should simply be non-interventionist or something of the like. There is a nice middle ground we should strive to get to. |
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Posted: 12/20/2018 11:23:32 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And we got fake republican as president. Look what the idiot has done . Sorry Trump duped us all and I voted for guy. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
If he does , I’ll vote for him in a heartbeat. Trump is a major fuck up Wait....wut?
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Posted: 12/20/2018 11:25:10 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I asked one question, to which you have not given any answer. What is the "win condition" for the US to allow us to bring our troops home that isn't open ended? You aren't answering because you have no answer and know your position is unsustainable. |
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Posted: 12/20/2018 11:28:01 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
France is everywhere, Britain still loves the Falklands, Russia is in Libya making deals with warlords, China is in Africa, Sri Lanka and poking around the Artic, Iran is in Africa, Turkey is in Africa, Italy was in Libya trying to shape the land last year. Every swinging dick is running around playing fuck fuck games. UAE just got called out in North Africa. Who isn’t playing fuck fuck games besides Iceland? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: It would be easier to list who isn't. How many nations are involved in police actions or have foreign bases scattered all over the world? How many nations who claim not to be are de facto isolationist in practice? I don't like that label anyway as it is often used as a false dichotomy, it should simply be non-interventionist or something of the like. There is a nice middle ground we should strive to get to. |
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Posted: 12/20/2018 11:30:23 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
8 years of that was under Obama. Would you characterize his leadership as effective? A leader asks these unpopular questions and demands answers. He also must feel some responsibility for everyone from Mattis to the youngest private that just enlisted. Hell of a responsibility and not a job I'd want. Proxy wars have never won anything. They just make a mess of unintended consequences. Iraq and Afghanistan were both indirect results of US covert support with the goal of fighting Iran and the soviets... in the short term it worked..somewhat. If you want to effect world politics, convince people to see things your way, kill everyone you can't convince, setup the survivors for success, then get the fuck out. The best thing HW bush ever did was not go all the way to Baghdad. That solution doesn't look possible or palatable in afganistan...so...? |
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Posted: 12/20/2018 11:30:51 PM EDT
[#38]
So if Mattis were given the chance, would he disarm us?
Most here say YES, fuck that dildo. SJW warrior globalist fuckin’ FUDD. |
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Posted: 12/20/2018 11:31:02 PM EDT
[#39]
Didn't read the thread but basically Mattis quit because America is sick of fucking around in shithole countries? Seems like a good time to prep our forces for actual next gen warfare instead of fighting some third worlders.
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Posted: 12/20/2018 11:34:27 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And we got fake republican as president. Look what the idiot has done . Sorry Trump duped us all and I voted for guy. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
If he does , I’ll vote for him in a heartbeat. Trump is a major fuck up lol this post really belies the problem. We have a generation or more of Republicans raised on a false idea of conservatism, the idea that intervening in every part of the world is somehow a 'conservative' ideal. Were the Republicans of the 1920's (probably the pinnacle of GD's fantasy about Republicans vis a vie government) fake conservatives/Republicans? How do you fight wars and police actions all over the world and still have a small government? Did you ever think about that? Just look at the Left and Islam, it has been compounded by this, all we are doing is feeding their narratives. |
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Posted: 12/20/2018 11:35:22 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Like I said there wilfl be all kinds of "real" reasons for Mattis resigning because the official one looks so bad. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You think that those 2,000 troops in Syria are all about ISIS? That’s cute. |
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Posted: 12/20/2018 11:35:55 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Didn't read the thread but basically Mattis quit because America is sick of fucking around in shithole countries? Seems like a good time to prep our forces for actual next gen warfare instead of fighting some third worlders. |
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Posted: 12/20/2018 11:36:29 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sorry our guy won and we lost. lol this post really belies the problem. We have a generation or more of Republicans raised on a false idea of conservatism, the idea that intervening in every part of the world is somehow a 'conservative' ideal. Were the Republicans of the 1920's (probably the pinnacle of GD's fantasy about Republicans vis a vie government) fake conservatives/Republicans? How do you fight wars and police actions all over the world and still have a small government? Did you ever think about that?  Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
If he does , I’ll vote for him in a heartbeat. Trump is a major fuck up lol this post really belies the problem. We have a generation or more of Republicans raised on a false idea of conservatism, the idea that intervening in every part of the world is somehow a 'conservative' ideal. Were the Republicans of the 1920's (probably the pinnacle of GD's fantasy about Republicans vis a vie government) fake conservatives/Republicans? How do you fight wars and police actions all over the world and still have a small government? Did you ever think about that? |
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Posted: 12/20/2018 11:38:18 PM EDT
[#44]
Did people read the resignation letter? Mattis says I think X, and you deserve someone in line with your thinking. Not a mystery why he resigned.
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Posted: 12/20/2018 11:41:00 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well there are 195 nations in the world. You named 8, and lets not pretend the comparisons are even remotely close to what the US engages in or spends on. Like I said, it is not a false dichotomy. And what is the solution when a hostile country fills the void? |
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Posted: 12/20/2018 11:41:17 PM EDT
[#46]
This presidency has turned into one disorganized cluster fuck. I thought a good businessman was supposed to delegate and listen to the advice from his hand picked experts. Trump is demonstrating that there is no 4d chess and there never was. It's not even 2d checkers at this point. He is being attacked from every direction and is too damn narcissistic to believe that anyone knows better than him. It would be one thing if he had any actual beliefs or even some sort of rough plan, but he doesn't. He's all over the damn place. I was on this train from the start and I'm beginning to feel like a sucker.
I know that there has always been turnover in every adminstration, but not like this and not because of the reasons that everyone in this administration is ditching him. These are usually savvy people who are knowledgeable about what's going on behind the scenes. I think it's obvious that they see the writing on the wall and don't want anything to do with that message when it comes to fruition. He has become toxic to the point that people don't want to work for him. That's totally fucked up. Name one president in the recent past who had no one to circle the wagons around him when the shit hit the fan. Not even Nixon was this alone. All Trump really has at this point is his children. |
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Posted: 12/20/2018 11:42:22 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This presidency has turned into one disorganized cluster fuck. |
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Posted: 12/20/2018 11:44:11 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No I wouldn't but what's done is done. Here we are 17 years in. What's the goal? Can we get there? What will it take? Is it worth it? What happens if we leave? A leader asks these unpopular questions and demands answers. He also must feel some responsibility for everyone from Mattis to the youngest private that just enlisted. Hell of a responsibility and not a job I'd want. Proxy wars have never won anything. They just make a mess of unintended consequences. Iraq and Afghanistan were both indirect results of US covert support with the goal of fighting Iran and the soviets... in the short term it worked..somewhat. If you want to effect world politics, convince people to see things your way, kill everyone you can't convince, setup the survivors for success, then get the fuck out. The best thing HW bush ever did was not go all the way to Baghdad. That solution doesn't look possible or palatable in afganistan...so...? |
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Posted: 12/20/2018 11:44:44 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
New Zealand & Switzerland for sure but who else? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: It has worked for countless countries and it is not binary. Total leftist bullshit. |
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Posted: 12/20/2018 11:45:01 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Did people read the resignation letter? Mattis says I think X, and you deserve someone in line with your thinking. Not a mystery why he resigned. |
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