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Posted: 8/29/2016 11:39:46 AM EST
[#1]
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you need to keep reading the rest of my post 
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I disagree with that. While a shotgun does have limitations, it also has some advantages. Such as...? you need to keep reading the rest of my post
And ballastically I think its going to be VERY hard to argue that a single 5.56 round is more likely to drop an asshole compared to a single shell of 15 #1 buck pellets. No, it's actually pretty easy to argue. CNS hits with even shitty 5.56 ammo stops the fuck out of fights, and a close range CNS hits are pretty damn easy to get with a decent autoloading rifle. Also, on CQB-range targets I average around .2 splits even with USGI triggers with an AR. And I'm not even all that good. That's five shots a second. I don't see too many fight scenarios where I'm not going to get multiple shots off. |
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Posted: 8/29/2016 11:42:16 AM EST
[#2]
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I've yet to hear a valid argument (aside from laws, which I understand) that the shotgun is in any way a better tool for the job when compared to an AR. My father has no military background, and no practical experience with AR15 based weapons. Or even M1 Garand based weapons. He has done quite a bit of small game hunting with a Remington 870, though. When it was clear drug dealers had moved in across the street from him and all sorts of shifty characters were suddenly in the neighborhood, handing him a Wingmaster was a lot more sensible move than handing him an AR he didn't have any trigger time on. I purchased that Wingmaster for 200 bucks from Summit Gunbroker, put a Wilson mag tube on it, and mounted more ammo to the butt. Grand total spend was under $300. An AR can't come close to touching that price. |
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Posted: 8/29/2016 11:42:46 AM EST
[#3]
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No, it's actually pretty easy to argue. CNS hits with even shitty 5.56 ammo stops the fuck out of fights, and a close range CNS hits are pretty damn easy to get with a decent autoloading rifle. Also, on CQB-range targets I average around .2 splits even with USGI triggers with an AR. And I'm not even all that good. That's five shots a second. I don't see too many fight scenarios where I'm not going to get multiple shots off. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I disagree with that. While a shotgun does have limitations, it also has some advantages. Such as...? you need to keep reading the rest of my post
And ballastically I think its going to be VERY hard to argue that a single 5.56 round is more likely to drop an asshole compared to a single shell of 15 #1 buck pellets. No, it's actually pretty easy to argue. CNS hits with even shitty 5.56 ammo stops the fuck out of fights, and a close range CNS hits are pretty damn easy to get with a decent autoloading rifle. Also, on CQB-range targets I average around .2 splits even with USGI triggers with an AR. And I'm not even all that good. That's five shots a second. I don't see too many fight scenarios where I'm not going to get multiple shots off. AR I can get around 0.16 at close distance. I've even pulled 0.12 a time or two. Pistol is usually around 0.16-.20 and 0.2 feels like an eternity as I'm used to the 0.16 range. Shotgun is avg 0.5'ish. The more you know! 
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Posted: 8/29/2016 11:43:23 AM EST
[#4]
000Buck
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Posted: 8/29/2016 11:44:48 AM EST
[#5]
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None of which is actually true or even needed. But, carry on.  Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Once again, it's not an inferior weapon. It's just a weapon you admit to not knowing how to use or practice with. Miniscule capacity, slow reloads, slow follow ups, stiff recoil, hard to suppress, not as precise, etc. Nope, definitely not an inferior weapon. None of which is actually true or even needed. But, carry on. Please be trolling. Nobody could be THAT ignorant 
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Posted: 8/29/2016 11:48:57 AM EST
[#6]
Two 870 Wingmasters with rifle-sighted barrels. (One on the left was a PD trade-in from Summit. On the right was a gun shop rescue) +1 Wilson mag tubes added to each, as well as shell carrier on the buttstock mounted with heavy duty velcro. Total spend for both guns was under $450. |
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Posted: 8/29/2016 11:49:15 AM EST
[#7]
It's amazing how this same topic get so much mileage over and over.
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Posted: 8/29/2016 11:49:18 AM EST
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Federal low recoil 9 pellet buck with the flite control wad. Winner. |
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Posted: 8/29/2016 11:49:47 AM EST
[#9]
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Please be trolling. Nobody could be THAT ignorant Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Once again, it's not an inferior weapon. It's just a weapon you admit to not knowing how to use or practice with. Miniscule capacity, slow reloads, slow follow ups, stiff recoil, hard to suppress, not as precise, etc. Nope, definitely not an inferior weapon. None of which is actually true or even needed. But, carry on. Please be trolling. Nobody could be THAT ignorant Ok, let's go thru them one at a time. Capacity. 7 rounds is plenty. Slow reloads. No they are not. Training is your friend. Slow follow ups. Not true. Watch a match sometime and again, training. Stiff recoil. No it isn't. Again, training. Hard to suppress. Why bother? Not as precise. Once again, false. The distance is 30 FEET or less. . When i was an instructor I used to shoot the AR qualification course for fun with an 870 and slugs. It was a hell of a lot of fun and amazed the rookies. 
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Posted: 8/29/2016 11:49:55 AM EST
[#10]
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Miniscule capacity, slow reloads, slow follow ups, stiff recoil, hard to suppress, not as precise, etc. Nope, definitely not an inferior weapon. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Once again, it's not an inferior weapon. It's just a weapon you admit to not knowing how to use or practice with. Miniscule capacity, slow reloads, slow follow ups, stiff recoil, hard to suppress, not as precise, etc. Nope, definitely not an inferior weapon. I shoot a M38 with full power 7.62x54R on a regular basis so I am not worried about recoil, At <10 yards, aim center mass and shoot |
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Posted: 8/29/2016 11:50:20 AM EST
[#11]
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My father... Grand total spend was under $300. An AR can't come close to touching that price. My family is worth more than $300 to me, and I don't mind spending the cash or rangetime to teach them how to shoot or find a training course. And it's not like we're talking thousands, either. You can get a plenty decent rifle off the shelf for $600-700. Less if you wait for deals/sales/buy used. |
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Posted: 8/29/2016 11:50:59 AM EST
[#12]
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http://www.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=91471 Two 870 Wingmasters. +1 Wilson mag tubes added to each, as well as shell carrier on the buttstock mounted with heavy duty velcro. Total spend for both guns was under $450. Purely out of curiosity... why spring (no pun intended) for the magazine extensions and just get +1s? |
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Posted: 8/29/2016 11:51:47 AM EST
[#13]
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#2 shot is .15dia and appx. five grains. Five. You can stop that with sheet metal. Just because it recoils a lot doesn't mean it's effective at stopping an attacker. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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No 2 turkey load If that won't stop the bad guy there's not much else to use. I just want to make sure we didn't miss this one... Because there's a LOT "else to use." 
Sure you could use a AR10 but this thread is shotguns #2 shot is .15dia and appx. five grains. Five. You can stop that with sheet metal. Just because it recoils a lot doesn't mean it's effective at stopping an attacker. Home defense is at the most 15 feet away in any home. Try that and see what that does to sheet metal.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilIV4MDwLBg |
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Posted: 8/29/2016 11:52:23 AM EST
[#14]
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My family is worth more than $300 to me, and I don't mind spending the cash or rangetime to teach them how to shoot or find a training course. And it's not like we're talking thousands, either. You can get a plenty decent rifle off the shelf for $600-700. Less if you wait for deals/sales/buy used. It's not a matter of "worth". It's a matter of someone who is not going to go out and train on a new gun, and who needs something a little more than the M&P I bought him, and needs it immediately. My experiences with the $600-700 range rifles has not been positive, and I'd never hand one to somebody expecting it to work properly out of the box...because I've seen way too many that don't. The Wingmasters, on the other hand, will work. |
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Posted: 8/29/2016 11:52:33 AM EST
[#15]
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#2 shot is .15dia and appx. five grains. Five. You can stop that with sheet metal. Just because it recoils a lot doesn't mean it's effective at stopping an attacker. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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No 2 turkey load If that won't stop the bad guy there's not much else to use. I just want to make sure we didn't miss this one... Because there's a LOT "else to use."
Sure you could use a AR10 but this thread is shotguns #2 shot is .15dia and appx. five grains. Five. You can stop that with sheet metal. Just because it recoils a lot doesn't mean it's effective at stopping an attacker. Sheet metal will easily stop it. Just for fun one day, me and some friends tossed some ball caps (that we got for free from working a skeet tournament) up and shot them with heavy birdshot. Not a single pellet penetrated the back velcro strap. They were all just embedded in it. But some people think that's a good choice to stop humans.
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Posted: 8/29/2016 11:53:14 AM EST
[#16]
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Home defense is at the most 15 feet away in any home. Try that and see what that does to sheet metal.
Ah yes... the Marquess of Queensberry doctrine. 
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Posted: 8/29/2016 11:53:28 AM EST
[#17]
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My family is worth more than $300 to me, and I don't mind spending the cash or rangetime to teach them how to shoot or find a training course. And it's not like we're talking thousands, either. You can get a plenty decent rifle off the shelf for $600-700. Less if you wait for deals/sales/buy used. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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My father... Grand total spend was under $300. An AR can't come close to touching that price. My family is worth more than $300 to me, and I don't mind spending the cash or rangetime to teach them how to shoot or find a training course. And it's not like we're talking thousands, either. You can get a plenty decent rifle off the shelf for $600-700. Less if you wait for deals/sales/buy used. My shotguns were $140 for all three. Somehow, I'm pretty sure we all will survive. 
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Posted: 8/29/2016 11:54:05 AM EST
[#18]
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Purely out of curiosity... why spring (no pun intended) for the magazine extensions and just get +1s? I've had some bad experiences with some of the longer mag tubes (admittedly mostly shitty ones) in terms of function and reliability. The bigger spring they need makes them a bit harder to load, too...a concern for this situation. |
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Posted: 8/29/2016 11:55:42 AM EST
[#19]
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I shot a M30 with full power 7.62x54R on a regular basis so I am not worried about recoil, At <10 yards, aim center mass and shoot Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Once again, it's not an inferior weapon. It's just a weapon you admit to not knowing how to use or practice with. Miniscule capacity, slow reloads, slow follow ups, stiff recoil, hard to suppress, not as precise, etc. Nope, definitely not an inferior weapon. I shot a M30 with full power 7.62x54R on a regular basis so I am not worried about recoil, At <10 yards, aim center mass and shoot I'm not the least bit sensitive to recoil, but to say there isn't huge difference between a 12ga and an AR is just trolling. And 12ga shot inside a house is around the size of a fist that you can't control 100%. In no way is that anywhere near as precise as a rifle. |
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Posted: 8/29/2016 11:56:18 AM EST
[#20]
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I've had some bad experiences with some of the longer mag tubes (admittedly mostly shitty ones) in terms of function and reliability. The bigger spring they need makes them a bit harder to load, too...a concern for this situation. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Purely out of curiosity... why spring (no pun intended) for the magazine extensions and just get +1s? I've had some bad experiences with some of the longer mag tubes (admittedly mostly shitty ones) in terms of function and reliability. The bigger spring they need makes them a bit harder to load, too...a concern for this situation. I gotcha. Indeed, up until relatively recently the "mag-tube extension" market was mostly junk. They make damn good stuff nowadays though. The tubes I've added from Nordic have been built better and tougher than any of the guns I've put them on. |
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Posted: 8/29/2016 11:56:25 AM EST
[#21]
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Ok, let's go thru them one at a time. Capacity. 7 rounds is plenty. Slow reloads. No they are not. Training is your friend. Slow follow ups. Not true. Watch a match sometime and again, training. Stiff recoil. No it isn't. Again, training. Hard to suppress. Why bother? Not as precise. Once again, false. The distance is 30 FEET or less. . When i was an instructor I used to shoot the AR qualification course for fun with an 870 and slugs. It was a hell of a lot of fun and amazed the rookies. Oh gosh...you aren't trolling.   
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Posted: 8/29/2016 11:57:00 AM EST
[#22]
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The tubes I've added from Nordic have been built better and tougher than any of the guns I've put them on. Indeed. I'm going to buy one for the 1301 eventually. |
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Posted: 8/29/2016 11:58:31 AM EST
[#23]
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Oh gosh...you aren't trolling. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Ok, let's go thru them one at a time. Capacity. 7 rounds is plenty. Slow reloads. No they are not. Training is your friend. Slow follow ups. Not true. Watch a match sometime and again, training. Stiff recoil. No it isn't. Again, training. Hard to suppress. Why bother? Not as precise. Once again, false. The distance is 30 FEET or less. . When i was an instructor I used to shoot the AR qualification course for fun with an 870 and slugs. It was a hell of a lot of fun and amazed the rookies. Oh gosh...you aren't trolling. Nope, and you are not paying attention. It's a common habit of the gamer crowd. |
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Posted: 8/29/2016 12:01:17 PM EST
[#24]
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Capacity. 7 rounds is plenty. Slow reloads. No they are not. Training is your friend. Slow follow ups. Not true. Watch a match sometime and again, training. ] Where are these matches you're watching where people are loading and shooting shotguns faster than ARs? |
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Posted: 8/29/2016 12:01:23 PM EST
[#25]
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I'm sure you are, hence why I said most. I don't see the shotgun doing anything better than the AR. Just like a 1911 does nothing better than a Glock or a m&p. In both cases, people choose a weapon which is proven to be a less effective fighting tool. *shrug* Usually, that's when emotions come into play, and discussions devolve. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm fine with a 1911. I'm sure you are, hence why I said most. I don't see the shotgun doing anything better than the AR. Just like a 1911 does nothing better than a Glock or a m&p. In both cases, people choose a weapon which is proven to be a less effective fighting tool. *shrug* Usually, that's when emotions come into play, and discussions devolve. Well, a 1911 does group better than a Glock or M&P. Not that that matters at O-dark-30. |
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Posted: 8/29/2016 12:02:19 PM EST
[#26]
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Slugs do massive damage quickly without overpenatration. 556? Not sure id be comfortable with rifle rounds for HD in an urban/suburban setting.... the houses are pretty close together here.... Slugs would far outpenetrate 5.56 in typical housing construction. |
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Posted: 8/29/2016 12:02:45 PM EST
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Oh gosh...you aren't trolling. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Ok, let's go thru them one at a time. Capacity. 7 rounds is plenty. Slow reloads. No they are not. Training is your friend. Slow follow ups. Not true. Watch a match sometime and again, training. Stiff recoil. No it isn't. Again, training. Hard to suppress. Why bother? Not as precise. Once again, false. The distance is 30 FEET or less. . When i was an instructor I used to shoot the AR qualification course for fun with an 870 and slugs. It was a hell of a lot of fun and amazed the rookies. Oh gosh...you aren't trolling. |
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Posted: 8/29/2016 12:03:23 PM EST
[#28]
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Where are these matches you're watching where people are loading and shooting shotguns faster than ARs? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Capacity. 7 rounds is plenty. Slow reloads. No they are not. Training is your friend. Slow follow ups. Not true. Watch a match sometime and again, training. ] Where are these matches you're watching where people are loading and shooting shotguns faster than ARs? Where did I say that? Once again, pay attention. Look, i get it. You need to find reason to validate the massive effort and money you spend preparing for an incredibly unlikely event. An event that is more rooted in some fantasy than in reality. Just don't denigrate folks that do not share your fantasy. |
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Posted: 8/29/2016 12:03:57 PM EST
[#29]
3" 00 buck 15 pellets. Drops a deer like it's hot.
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Posted: 8/29/2016 12:04:30 PM EST
[#30]
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Where did I say that? Once again, pay attention. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Capacity. 7 rounds is plenty. Slow reloads. No they are not. Training is your friend. Slow follow ups. Not true. Watch a match sometime and again, training. ] Where are these matches you're watching where people are loading and shooting shotguns faster than ARs? Where did I say that? Once again, pay attention. I've shot a bunch of matches. At every one of them nobody even comes close to doing reloads or follow-up shots with a shot gun as fast as with the rifle. Not as fast as the better tool = relatively slow. |
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Posted: 8/29/2016 12:06:32 PM EST
[#31]
The capacity argument for pistols is not the same when we talk about shotguns.
Pistol bullets suck at stopping someone's hostile actions immediately. You can expect a determined bad guy to need at least 5 shots to make him stop his obnoxious behavior. Buckshot is another matter altogether. |
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Posted: 8/29/2016 12:06:44 PM EST
[#32]
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I've shot a bunch of matches. At every one of them nobody even comes close to doing reloads or follow-up shots with a shot gun as fast as with the rifle. Not as fast as the better tool = relatively slow. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Capacity. 7 rounds is plenty. Slow reloads. No they are not. Training is your friend. Slow follow ups. Not true. Watch a match sometime and again, training. ] Where are these matches you're watching where people are loading and shooting shotguns faster than ARs? Where did I say that? Once again, pay attention. I've shot a bunch of matches. At every one of them nobody even comes close to doing reloads or follow-up shots with a shot gun as fast as with the rifle. Not as fast as the better tool = relatively slow. Still not paying attention I see. I'm not comparing the two. You are. I'm correcting BS from you and your buddies. |
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Posted: 8/29/2016 12:08:44 PM EST
[#33]
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The capacity argument for pistols is not the same when we talk about shotguns. Pistol bullets suck at stopping someone's hostile actions immediately. You can expect a determined bad guy to need at least 5 shots to make him stop his obnoxious behavior. Buckshot is another matter altogether. I'm not going into a fight thinking a 155 round is going to stop it immediately. You stop shooting until the treat isn't threatening. Hell, we had to drop two atomic bombs.
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Posted: 8/29/2016 12:12:12 PM EST
[#34]
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Still not paying attention I see. I'm not comparing the two. You are. I'm correcting BS from you and your buddies. We're paying attention. You're saying that reloads and follow up shots from a shotgun "aren't slow". Well, without comparing it to something, a term like "slow" is meaningless. So it only makes sense to compare the shotgun to the optimum tool, the autoloading rifle. And it comes off as, well... slow. Shooting and reloading a shotgun compared to say, a crossbow or T/C Contender is quite speedy. |
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Posted: 8/29/2016 12:12:41 PM EST
[#35]
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I disagree with that. While a shotgun does have limitations, it also has some advantages. My primary bedroom longarm is a 12 gauge (and I own several AR's FYI ), and its loaded with Federal #1 buck. Why? I want my first round on target to be as devastating as possible. And ballastically I think its going to be VERY hard to argue that a single 5.56 round is more likely to drop an asshole compared to a single shell of 15 #1 buck pellets. The AR's advantage is in ammo capacity, range, and rate of fire. For the type of home defense situations I think are likely in my case ( I live in a small city with a low crime rate, and home invasion robberies with large number of attackers is pretty much unheard of), ammo capacity and range are not an issue. And while the AR still has the rate of fire advantage, I'm making that trade off in the belief that my first round out of the shotgun is more likely to drop an asshole. Now, if you talk about different scenario's, say LA style riots, or Katrina, or living out in the country, or in a neighborhood that often has home invasions carried out by large groups of people, then the AR would be preferred. But for me, I don't feel undergunned using the 12 gauge as my first line defense. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Who is limiting themselves? Anyone willingly choosing a shotgun over an autoloading rifle for defense against human attackers is limiting themselves. I disagree with that. While a shotgun does have limitations, it also has some advantages. My primary bedroom longarm is a 12 gauge (and I own several AR's FYI ), and its loaded with Federal #1 buck. Why? I want my first round on target to be as devastating as possible. And ballastically I think its going to be VERY hard to argue that a single 5.56 round is more likely to drop an asshole compared to a single shell of 15 #1 buck pellets. The AR's advantage is in ammo capacity, range, and rate of fire. For the type of home defense situations I think are likely in my case ( I live in a small city with a low crime rate, and home invasion robberies with large number of attackers is pretty much unheard of), ammo capacity and range are not an issue. And while the AR still has the rate of fire advantage, I'm making that trade off in the belief that my first round out of the shotgun is more likely to drop an asshole. Now, if you talk about different scenario's, say LA style riots, or Katrina, or living out in the country, or in a neighborhood that often has home invasions carried out by large groups of people, then the AR would be preferred. But for me, I don't feel undergunned using the 12 gauge as my first line defense. |
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Posted: 8/29/2016 12:14:06 PM EST
[#36]
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Hit the CNS, drop them in their tracks. Bullets don't matter. Terminal ballistics only matter if you make it to the end of the fight. |
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Posted: 8/29/2016 12:15:14 PM EST
[#37]
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Hit the CNS, drop them in their tracks. Bullets don't matter. I don't even use bullets. Spears to the CNS are much more effective. |
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Posted: 8/29/2016 12:17:26 PM EST
[#38]
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You're right in that there's no guarantee that one shot from ANYTHING is 100% going to put an asshole down. But in my house, I want to use a tool that's going to give me the highest odds of one shot dropping an idiot. I feel a 12 gauge with the right ammo is that tool. I also practice getting off follow up shots off as quick as possible. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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And ballastically I think its going to be VERY hard to argue that a single 5.56 round is more likely to drop an asshole compared to a single shell of 15 #1 buck pellets. If you want to compare things in single shot ballistics, then we have now moved outside a home defense scenario. Nothing "drops assholes in one shot", and I wouldn't want to bet on it, even if had a high likelihood of doing so. You're right in that there's no guarantee that one shot from ANYTHING is 100% going to put an asshole down. But in my house, I want to use a tool that's going to give me the highest odds of one shot dropping an idiot. I feel a 12 gauge with the right ammo is that tool. I also practice getting off follow up shots off as quick as possible. There's a 100% guarantee that any shot that perforates the brain stem WILL drop them in their tracks. |
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Posted: 8/29/2016 12:17:54 PM EST
[#39]
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I don't even use bullets. Spears to the CNS are much more effective. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Hit the CNS, drop them in their tracks. Bullets don't matter. I don't even use bullets. Spears to the CNS are much more effective. If I could throw spears at +2500FPS, 30 in a few seconds? You damn betcha.
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Posted: 8/29/2016 12:18:11 PM EST
[#40]
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I don't even use bullets. Spears to the CNS are much more effective. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Hit the CNS, drop them in their tracks. Bullets don't matter. I don't even use bullets. Spears to the CNS are much more effective. Especially on bears. |
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Posted: 8/29/2016 12:18:43 PM EST
[#41]
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Home defense is at the most 15 feet away in any home. Try that and see what that does to sheet metal.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilIV4MDwLBg Really? A foam-core door? Do you know how fragile those things are? And it still stopped half the pellets. If we're presenting rednecks shooting things on YouTube as evidence, here's an old desktop stopping a turkey load from 3-4 feet away. 
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Posted: 8/29/2016 12:20:08 PM EST
[#42]
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I'm not going into a fight thinking a 155 round is going to stop it immediately. You stop shooting until the treat isn't threatening. Hell, we had to drop two atomic bombs. I've collected enough reliable anecdotal evidence on the effectiveness on a well-aimed shotgun against the average bad guy to pass my personal comfort zone for believing in a one shot stop.
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Posted: 8/29/2016 12:20:16 PM EST
[#43]
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We're paying attention. You're saying that reloads and follow up shots from a shotgun "aren't slow". Well, without comparing it to something, a term like "slow" is meaningless. So it only makes sense to compare the shotgun to the optimum tool, the autoloading rifle. And it comes off as, well... slow. Shooting and reloading a shotgun compared to say, a crossbow or T/C Contender is quite speedy. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Still not paying attention I see. I'm not comparing the two. You are. I'm correcting BS from you and your buddies. We're paying attention. You're saying that reloads and follow up shots from a shotgun "aren't slow". Well, without comparing it to something, a term like "slow" is meaningless. So it only makes sense to compare the shotgun to the optimum tool, the autoloading rifle. And it comes off as, well... slow. Shooting and reloading a shotgun compared to say, a crossbow or T/C Contender is quite speedy. Gamers.
The shotgun is more than fast enough for the intended use. It has adequate capacity for the intended use . It's certainly effective enough for the intended use. It is reliable enough for the intended use. It's more than easy enough to use in the first place. Problem solved. The fact you want to keep on dicking around with the problem afterwards is not a reason to call the shotgun inadequate. |
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Posted: 8/29/2016 12:22:38 PM EST
[#44]
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Where are these matches you're watching where people are loading and shooting shotguns faster than ARs? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Capacity. 7 rounds is plenty. Slow reloads. No they are not. Training is your friend. Slow follow ups. Not true. Watch a match sometime and again, training. ] Where are these matches you're watching where people are loading and shooting shotguns faster than ARs? That is not what he said.... |
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Posted: 8/29/2016 12:28:05 PM EST
[#45]
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Where did I say that? Once again, pay attention. Look, i get it. You need to find reason to validate the massive effort and money you spend preparing for an incredibly unlikely event. An event that is more rooted in some fantasy than in reality. Just don't denigrate folks that do not share your fantasy. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Capacity. 7 rounds is plenty. Slow reloads. No they are not. Training is your friend. Slow follow ups. Not true. Watch a match sometime and again, training. ] Where are these matches you're watching where people are loading and shooting shotguns faster than ARs? Where did I say that? Once again, pay attention. Look, i get it. You need to find reason to validate the massive effort and money you spend preparing for an incredibly unlikely event. An event that is more rooted in some fantasy than in reality. Just don't denigrate folks that do not share your fantasy. So what you're saying is, nobody needs an AR15? Just get a shotgun. |
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Posted: 8/29/2016 12:28:26 PM EST
[#46]
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Gamers.
The shotgun is more than fast enough for the intended use. It has adequate capacity for the intended use . It's certainly effective enough for the intended use. It is reliable enough for the intended use. It's more than easy enough to use in the first place. Problem solved. The fact you want to keep on dicking around with the problem afterwards is not a reason to call the shotgun inadequate. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Still not paying attention I see. I'm not comparing the two. You are. I'm correcting BS from you and your buddies. We're paying attention. You're saying that reloads and follow up shots from a shotgun "aren't slow". Well, without comparing it to something, a term like "slow" is meaningless. So it only makes sense to compare the shotgun to the optimum tool, the autoloading rifle. And it comes off as, well... slow. Shooting and reloading a shotgun compared to say, a crossbow or T/C Contender is quite speedy. Gamers.
The shotgun is more than fast enough for the intended use. It has adequate capacity for the intended use . It's certainly effective enough for the intended use. It is reliable enough for the intended use. It's more than easy enough to use in the first place. Problem solved. The fact you want to keep on dicking around with the problem afterwards is not a reason to call the shotgun inadequate. Holy fudd. It doesn't end. Why are you even on this site? Do you still send snail mail, write with a quill, and drive with a horse and buggy because they're "effective enough?" |
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Posted: 8/29/2016 12:28:56 PM EST
[#47]
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Gamers. Okay, we get it... the women and kids at the 3-gun match beat you so badly you won't go back. It's okay.
The shotgun is more than fast enough for the intended use. It has adequate capacity for the intended use . More Marquess of Queensberry combat doctrine. It's certainly effective enough for the intended use. It is reliable enough for the intended use. It's more than easy enough to use in the first place. Problem solved. The fact you want to keep on dicking around with the problem afterwards is not a reason to call the shotgun inadequate. Once more, ADEQUATE =/= OPTIMAL. I don't think anyone here has opined that the shotgun isn't adequate. The autoloading rifle is a better tool for defense against human threats. |
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Posted: 8/29/2016 12:31:21 PM EST
[#48]
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Really? A foam-core door? Do you know how fragile those things are? And it still stopped half the pellets. If we're presenting rednecks shooting things on YouTube as evidence, here's an old desktop stopping a turkey load from 3-4 feet away.  yejGKHLK_OgQuote HistoryQuoted:
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Home defense is at the most 15 feet away in any home. Try that and see what that does to sheet metal.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilIV4MDwLBg Really? A foam-core door? Do you know how fragile those things are? And it still stopped half the pellets. If we're presenting rednecks shooting things on YouTube as evidence, here's an old desktop stopping a turkey load from 3-4 feet away. yejGKHLK_OgI don't think you have seen what N0 2 magnum turkey 3" can do at close range to large game. I've seen first hand |
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Posted: 8/29/2016 12:31:53 PM EST
[#49]
Federal or S&B 12 pellet 00 buck 2&3/4"
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Posted: 8/29/2016 12:33:15 PM EST
[#50]
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Brenneke special forces short magnum Hexolit 32 D dupleks Those Hexolits do some damage, range and accuracy of a slug in fragmenting steel. Have you tried the Monolit slugs? |
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