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Posted: 10/28/2019 9:48:42 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wow...with friends like these, who needs enemies! Government agents just love the POWER that comes with them joining the Dark Side of the ruling class. As soon as they get a taste of what it’s like to have “authority” over others, they wallow in it, thrive on it, and demand that the power should only belong to them. How quickly they forget that the government is there to SERVE THE PEOPLE. Not the other way around. Now is when they come out and call my beliefs “cute” and “naive”. And then they will hide behind the courts to justify their small piece of the dictatorship. They always have a problem answering the question of “WHY was the second amendment written and included in the Bill of Rights”. (Itself a misnomer, as it should be called the “Bill of Government Limitation”, this would end some of the apparent confusion) For the record, I believe that any citizen should be able to own whatever they please, but if misused the punishment should fit the crime...quickly, and with few appeals. |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 9:50:07 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
you asked for an example of a privately held warship, he owned one. Along with MANY other people. Generals can own private property The Congressional authorization had to do with shooting shit legal like, not owning it. |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 9:50:15 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes, I am very well aware. So have you applied for your Letter of Marque? Didn't think so. With out it you were declared a pirate and could be hung back then. Privateers were authorized combatant ships by Congress and thus subject to the rules of war. Without the letter you were just a scumbag criminal on the high seas. How about telling the truth. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: 
You're aware, of course, that privateers and merchants with Letters of Marque (not Marquee lol) made up the VAST majority of our Revolutionary War fleet and captured thousands of enemy ships.. right? you could buy one, own one, sail around in it, make music videos on it. All kosher. Once you started shooting people and stealing their stuff without a letter, you became a pirate. |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 9:50:21 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Y'all are arguing about the wrong things. What we should be discussing is how We The People are going to bring this out of control government to heel. But you all just keep shooting each other in the feet..... Nobody needs this.... Nobody needs that.... Nobody needs a government sticking its nose into our everyday lives. But, sadly, here we are. I would expect nothing less from a New Yorker and Bill Clinton’s neighbor. |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 9:51:18 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And without the Letter just a pirate and you know it. Be honest. Pirates weren't legal were they. So without the letter you in effect couldn't just go build a warship and go attacking merchant ships at will could you? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
you asked for an example of a privately held warship, he owned one. Along with MANY other people. Generals can own private property The Congressional authorization had to do with shooting shit legal like, not owning it. Owning a hammer doesn't make one a carpenter. Owning a gun doesn't make one a murderer. Owning a warship doesn't make one a pirate. Owning an explosive doesn't make one a terrorist. an action is needed in the middle |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 9:52:05 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Tell us what Jamal in the section 8 apartment complex is likely to do with a breaching charge. Anything constructive? Good? Self-defensive? Probably NOT. Look, if the government wants to make these things available with the same restrictions as there are for dynamite, then go for it. Certainly not any acceptable reason for these things to be readily available to the general public. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
"the right of the people to keep and bear only commonly owned Arms, shall not be infringed" Anything constructive? Good? Self-defensive? Probably NOT. Look, if the government wants to make these things available with the same restrictions as there are for dynamite, then go for it. Certainly not any acceptable reason for these things to be readily available to the general public. We dont outlaw things because of what the bad guys will do with them. |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 9:52:41 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
no you could buy one, own one, sail around in it, make music videos on it. All kosher. Once you started shooting people and stealing their stuff without a letter, you became a pirate. |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 9:54:09 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Y'all are arguing about the wrong things. What we should be discussing is how We The People are going to bring this out of control government to heel. But you all just keep shooting each other in the feet..... Nobody needs this.... Nobody needs that.... Nobody needs a government sticking its nose into our everyday lives. But, sadly, here we are. |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 9:56:07 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes, I am very well aware. So have you applied for your Letter of Marque? Didn't think so. With out it you were declared a pirate and could be hung back then. Privateers were authorized combatant ships by Congress and thus subject to the rules of war. Without the letter you were just a scumbag criminal on the high seas. How about telling the truth. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You're aware, of course, that privateers and merchants with Letters of Marque (not Marquee lol) made up the VAST majority of our Revolutionary War fleet and captured thousands of enemy ships.. right? |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 9:57:57 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Tell us what Jamal in the section 8 apartment complex is likely to do with a breaching charge. Anything constructive? Good? Self-defensive? Probably NOT. Look, if the government wants to make these things available with the same restrictions as there are for dynamite, then go for it. Certainly not any acceptable reason for these things to be readily available to the general public. |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 10:01:46 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
see above, youre straw manning Owning a hammer doesn't make one a carpenter. Owning a gun doesn't make one a murderer. Owning a warship doesn't make one a pirate. Owning an explosive doesn't make one a terrorist. an action is needed in the middle |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 10:02:16 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
see above, youre straw manning Owning a hammer doesn't make one a carpenter. Owning a gun doesn't make one a murderer. Owning a warship doesn't make one a pirate. Owning an explosive doesn't make one a terrorist. an action is needed in the middle To those on the left.... Owning a gun does make one a murderer. |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 10:02:22 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That is your ignorant interpretation. Find a court that agrees with you. Explosives are not arms. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
All armaments are considered arms under the 2A. Explain how a letter of Marque can be issued to a non-military ship owner where it is expected that they will fight a naval battle with ships of the greatest Navy in the world and not have access to all of the cutting edge armaments available. Which they had. |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 10:04:03 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sorry, if you want to start a civil war I'm not on your side. I took an oath to uphold the Constitution. It contains the tools to bring a government to heel. If the government wants to start one, here is not the place to discuss it. They are watching. I plainly said, we should be discussing how to bring this out of control government to heel. |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 10:05:02 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Whoa there. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Then we need to put those people down. It should be 100% legal to use lethal means to defend your property, without question. This guy was breaking into your garage and you shot him in the face? Have a nice day sir, just make sure you hose off the concrete. Not to mention, if people had "whatever the fuck they want"ed and were allowed to use it, those people would have more reason to be afraid. Criminals exist because we allow them to. If someone is taking life, liberty, or property, it should be 100% within your legal right to stop them. Laws stating otherwise protect the criminal, and are the reason criminals- especially repeat offenders- exist. |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 10:06:12 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is the moment I would like to point out the difference between an armed merchantman, a privateer, and a pirate is the action not the object. The letter did not allow you to arm your ship, it allowed you to capture prizes. |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 10:06:22 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
wow, we're a million miles apart I think it's time for you to dig deep, find your principles, and start donating to Moms Demand Action instead of the NRA. Nothing you've said defends the use of AR15s, standard capacity mags, or civilian firearms training. buy a shotgun |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 10:07:17 AM EDT
[#18]
Isn't this what Tannerite is for
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Posted: 10/28/2019 10:08:05 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You were supposed to assume that because he lives in Seciton 8 housing, and his name is Jamal that he's a felon. This is coming from a person that's telling us what's is acceptable, and what we need for exercising our rights and freedoms. Let that sink in. |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 10:09:50 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: On the contrary... To those on the left.... Owning a gun does make one a murderer. |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 10:10:20 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In a society there are naturally restrictions on individual liberties. You don't get to do anything you want to do. If you want maximum individual liberty, find an empty island in the South pacific and live there by yourself so that no one will ever disagree with you. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I will never stop pointing out the idiocy of people who want our freedom and natural rights restricted. You don't get to do anything you want to do. If you want maximum individual liberty, find an empty island in the South pacific and live there by yourself so that no one will ever disagree with you. Like any good theory it contains significant elements of truth, but at the end of the day it is mostly a story constructed after the fact to rationalize the construction of power. |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 10:10:44 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes, and without the letter the British were free to hang you. When was the last letter issued by Congress? When was the last merchant ship allowed to have 8" guns? Oh, never. |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 10:11:35 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes, I am very well aware. So have you applied for your Letter of Marque? Didn't think so. With out it you were declared a pirate and could be hung back then. Privateers were authorized combatant ships by Congress and thus subject to the rules of war. Without the letter you were just a scumbag criminal on the high seas. How about telling the truth. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You're aware, of course, that privateers and merchants with Letters of Marque (not Marquee lol) made up the VAST majority of our Revolutionary War fleet and captured thousands of enemy ships.. right? And the largest conversion I could find was 44-guns, which puts some of those vessels as larger than most frigates, but smaller than most ships-of-the-line. Also, don't forget the capability to conduct amphibious operations with the completely legal naval infantry onboard. |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 10:11:53 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Tell us what Jamal in the section 8 apartment complex is likely to do with a breaching charge. Anything constructive? Good? Self-defensive? Probably NOT. Look, if the government wants to make these things available with the same restrictions as there are for dynamite, then go for it. Certainly not any acceptable reason for these things to be readily available to the general public. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
"the right of the people to keep and bear only commonly owned Arms, shall not be infringed" Anything constructive? Good? Self-defensive? Probably NOT. Look, if the government wants to make these things available with the same restrictions as there are for dynamite, then go for it. Certainly not any acceptable reason for these things to be readily available to the general public. You're a cop in New York, right? Any other rights that should be abrogated in case one of "those people" might misuse it? |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 10:13:46 AM EDT
[#25]
There are some people in this thread that need to travel to countries where everyone (not in prison) has completely unrestricted access to explosives, and "arms" of any type.....RPG's....tanks...etc.....
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Posted: 10/28/2019 10:14:03 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
"the right of the people to keep and bear Arms up to but not including 8" naval guns, shall not be infringed.” Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Yes, and without the letter the British were free to hang you. When was the last letter issued by Congress? When was the last merchant ship allowed to have 8" guns? Oh, never. |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 10:14:12 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So try buying the USS Missouri. You'll never get one without being de-milled. Even if you managed to get one, see what happens when you fire off your first shot. We aren't talking about a cruise ship and you know it. The real subject is about explosives and there you lose the argument. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
see above, youre straw manning Owning a hammer doesn't make one a carpenter. Owning a gun doesn't make one a murderer. Owning a warship doesn't make one a pirate. Owning an explosive doesn't make one a terrorist. an action is needed in the middle but I can buy explosives |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 10:14:55 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Courts...ignoring the plain facts of the constitution since 1776. History laughs at the willful ignorance of the courts. Explain how a letter of Marque can be issued to a non-military ship owner where it is expected that they will fight a naval battle with ships of the greatest Navy in the world and not have access to all of the cutting edge armaments available. Which they had. Your contempt for the the law with twisted reasoning is not a winning argument. The discussion is about redefining the 2A to cover explosives being able to be purchased over the counter. History laughs at anarchists who twist the Constitution to say whatever they want too. |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 10:15:22 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You seriously want to live in a nation where there are revolutions every fifty years? There are plenty of third world nations where you can live that dream. I'll opt for a stable society. |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 10:16:27 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Explain why such a letter is not issued today? Your contempt for the the law with twisted reasoning is not a winning argument. The discussion is about redefining the 2A to cover explosives being able to be purchased over the counter. History laughs at anarchists who twist the Constitution to say whatever they want too. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Courts...ignoring the plain facts of the constitution since 1776. History laughs at the willful ignorance of the courts. Explain how a letter of Marque can be issued to a non-military ship owner where it is expected that they will fight a naval battle with ships of the greatest Navy in the world and not have access to all of the cutting edge armaments available. Which they had. Your contempt for the the law with twisted reasoning is not a winning argument. The discussion is about redefining the 2A to cover explosives being able to be purchased over the counter. History laughs at anarchists who twist the Constitution to say whatever they want too. |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 10:17:19 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hardly, that is the retoric, they own guns too. They just don't want those who oppose them to own them. However, except for some in GD, no one is demanding Congress or the Courts the right to purchase all the semtex they want over the counter under guise of the 2A. Who is the government to dictate what I may own for myself? Who are you to tell me I don't need it? |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 10:17:23 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There are some people in this thread that need to travel to countries where everyone (not in prison) has completely unrestricted access to explosives, and "arms" of any type.....RPG's....tanks...etc..... but that's besides the point |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 10:19:44 AM EDT
[#33]
I could see maybe having some *very practical and therefore entirely constitutional* restrictions on storage, simply because it is a physical property of high explosives that the compounds degrade over time and fuses/detonators become unstable. We also don't have the right to dump poisons all over our property that would effect our neighbors, either. So at some point magazine requirements are a necessity, for /actual/ public safety reasons, not theoretical ones founded in politics. More of a building code thing than a weapon rights thing.
Something like a single breeching charge or hand grenade, though? ...Eh, probably not really that big a threat compared to other household stuff like chemicals or bad wiring, in practice. It'd still be a very dickish thing to keep around where a firefighter could conceivably be in proximity...but so are propane cylinders/etc. Maybe hand grenade is still a bad choice to keep around, since IIRC they are set off by burning a gun powder charge, and would be very dangerous in a common fire, compared to a plastic explosive with unarmed (or absent) electrical detonator. |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 10:21:55 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ah yes, the ex post rationally of the social contract theory has been beaten very deeply into many Americans heads. It once stood among other important theories like unalienable rights, an understanding of natural law, etc most of those have fallen away. Leaving the one theory (presented only from a Hobbesian point of view) alone and unduly powerful. Like any good theory it contains significant elements of truth, but at the end of the day it is mostly a story constructed after the fact to rationalize the construction of power. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I will never stop pointing out the idiocy of people who want our freedom and natural rights restricted. You don't get to do anything you want to do. If you want maximum individual liberty, find an empty island in the South pacific and live there by yourself so that no one will ever disagree with you. Like any good theory it contains significant elements of truth, but at the end of the day it is mostly a story constructed after the fact to rationalize the construction of power. 
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Posted: 10/28/2019 10:22:41 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
"the right of the people to keep and bear Arms up to but not including 8" naval guns, shall not be infringed." Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Yes, and without the letter the British were free to hang you. When was the last letter issued by Congress? When was the last merchant ship allowed to have 8" guns? Oh, never. |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 10:24:27 AM EDT
[#36]
I don't think the intent of "arms" in the context of the second amendment was intentionally meant to include explosives, especially in the context of bombs.
However, I think the waters get a little murky when you start to introduce things like exploding projectiles, canons that fire explosive shells; basically things that would probably fall under the traditional purview of "arms". I tend to err on the side of these would be part of the 2A's purview. As to bombs, which explosive breaching charges would be, I would say no. And I voted no. |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 10:24:32 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There are some people in this thread that need to travel to countries where everyone (not in prison) has completely unrestricted access to explosives, and "arms" of any type.....RPG's....tanks...etc..... |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 10:26:48 AM EDT
[#38]
Should explosives be protected ? Fuck yes, its WIDELY used in warfare, and extremely useful in farming, mining, stump removal etc. If you have access to c4 n detonators then grenades, claymores, mines etc are easy peasy. If foreign powers only supplied c4 in the boog, that would cause all kinds of heck.
Grenades should be legal too. |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 10:26:51 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Black Powder is not a burning powder like modern powder it is an explosive... In truth, he wished all England would know for true that the base of the great House of Lords hath such bountiful room for storage of that black powder (which doth merely burn without exploding), that implement which all good Christian English subjects hath been decreed to keep and bear to their hearts content (excluding the Moor who resideth in the poorest corners of London). Verily the good name of Fawkes shall be remembered as a martyr for the beneficial sense of novel methods of powder storage! 
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Posted: 10/28/2019 10:27:48 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Explain why such a letter is not issued today? Your contempt for the the law with twisted reasoning is not a winning argument. The discussion is about redefining the 2A to cover explosives being able to be purchased over the counter. History laughs at anarchists who twist the Constitution to say whatever they want too. The Second Amendment does not apply to weapons or explosives. The Second Amendment limits the governments involvement in what weapons and arms We the People own. The technology or use of said weapons or explosives are irrelevant. The limitations on the government remain the same. SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED. |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 10:28:02 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I take it that you think Jamal in the section 8 apartment complex should not be able to own a firearm,regardless of criminal record, either? |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 10:28:45 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
you can literally do that now With the crowns permission. |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 10:28:50 AM EDT
[#43]
Pretty sure they did that at the Pulse night club shooting.
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Posted: 10/28/2019 10:30:51 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't think the intent of "arms" in the context of the second amendment was intentionally meant to include explosives, especially in the context of bombs. However, I think the waters get a little murky when you start to introduce things like exploding projectiles, canons that fire explosive shells; basically things that would probably fall under the traditional purview of "arms". I tend to err on the side of these would be part of the 2A's purview. As to bombs, which explosive breaching charges would be, I would say no. And I voted no. |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 10:31:25 AM EDT
[#45]
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
Arms = Armament Doesn't matter what era or what the weapon, we should have the right to own it. Its essential for us as free citizens for maintaining our safety and our liberty. 
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Posted: 10/28/2019 10:31:33 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Explain why such a letter is not issued today? Your contempt for the the law with twisted reasoning is not a winning argument. The discussion is about redefining the 2A to cover explosives being able to be purchased over the counter. History laughs at anarchists who twist the Constitution to say whatever they want too. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: Courts...ignoring the plain facts of the constitution since 1776. History laughs at the willful ignorance of the courts. Explain how a letter of Marque can be issued to a non-military ship owner where it is expected that they will fight a naval battle with ships of the greatest Navy in the world and not have access to all of the cutting edge armaments available. Which they had. Your contempt for the the law with twisted reasoning is not a winning argument. The discussion is about redefining the 2A to cover explosives being able to be purchased over the counter. History laughs at anarchists who twist the Constitution to say whatever they want too. Second, I twisted nothing. Armaments are all of the things that can be used to prosecute military power. That includes explosives and all of those things are exactly what the constitution covers with the words "the right of the people to keep and bear arms". Those letters aren't issued today for the plain reason that modern American government regularly and with impunity violate the rights of their citizens. Not least of which is their 2nd Amendment rights. Government, at every level, is no longer restrained by the Constitution and operates as if the people are to be ruled. |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 10:31:55 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms up to but not including 8" naval guns, shall not be infringed.” |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 10:34:35 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Letter of Marque does not constitute Congressional permission to own the vessel. It simply gave them the cover of law to engage other nationalities vessels openly, in order to potentially avoid the crime of piracy. The "government" didn't have to give them permission to own or arm it, just to use those arms in offensive operations against foreign-flagged vessels. And the largest conversion I could find was 44-guns, which puts some of those vessels as larger than most frigates, but smaller than most ships-of-the-line. Also, don't forget the capability to conduct amphibious operations with the completely legal naval infantry onboard. |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 10:35:41 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
First, the law utmost in this country is the US Constitution. Without that law being primary nothing else is worth the paper it's written on. Second, I twisted nothing. Armaments are all of the things that can be used to prosecute military power. That includes explosives and all of those things are exactly what the constitution covers with the words "the right of the people to keep and bear arms". Those letters aren't issued today for the plain reason that modern American government regularly and with impunity violate the rights of their citizens. Not least of which is their 2nd Amendment rights. Government, at every level, is no longer restrained by the Constitution and operates as if the people are to be ruled. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted: Courts...ignoring the plain facts of the constitution since 1776. History laughs at the willful ignorance of the courts. Explain how a letter of Marque can be issued to a non-military ship owner where it is expected that they will fight a naval battle with ships of the greatest Navy in the world and not have access to all of the cutting edge armaments available. Which they had. Your contempt for the the law with twisted reasoning is not a winning argument. The discussion is about redefining the 2A to cover explosives being able to be purchased over the counter. History laughs at anarchists who twist the Constitution to say whatever they want too. Second, I twisted nothing. Armaments are all of the things that can be used to prosecute military power. That includes explosives and all of those things are exactly what the constitution covers with the words "the right of the people to keep and bear arms". Those letters aren't issued today for the plain reason that modern American government regularly and with impunity violate the rights of their citizens. Not least of which is their 2nd Amendment rights. Government, at every level, is no longer restrained by the Constitution and operates as if the people are to be ruled. |
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Posted: 10/28/2019 10:36:37 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Had there been a revolution every 50 years, there's a damn good chance we wouldn't be in the situation we are in right now.... |
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