[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Sig M18 might have just killed an Airman (Page 16 of 28)
|
Quoted: This is the dumbest fucking comparison to the Sig debacle. The Glocks were firing into people's legs because people had horrible trigger habits from shooting heavy DA and DAO pistols. Lots of people were taught by idiots that were telling people to start staging the trigger as soon as the gun started to come out of the holster. Nobody is going to learn their way out of not getting shot in the leg by a P320 that decides to go off in the holster by itself. Be honest, are you at least middle management at Sig USA?  Original Upload, I Just Shot Myself! There were also other Glock legs with people having their finger in the trigger guard when reholstering The staging trigger thing was with the LASD and the SW M&P, not Glock |
|
Quoted: that's not right at all. 'Glock leg' was mostly from people using stupid SERPA holsters where in order to release the lock, you had to press on a lever that was right at the trigger guard level. If you kept pressure on the lever as the gun came out of the holster, there was a good chance that your finger would hook on the trigger. This is the best known example here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYvAxLX6OzEThere were also other Glock legs with people having their finger in the trigger guard when reholstering The staging trigger thing was with the LASD and the SW M&P, not Glock Quoted: Quoted: This is the dumbest fucking comparison to the Sig debacle. The Glocks were firing into people's legs because people had horrible trigger habits from shooting heavy DA and DAO pistols. Lots of people were taught by idiots that were telling people to start staging the trigger as soon as the gun started to come out of the holster. Nobody is going to learn their way out of not getting shot in the leg by a P320 that decides to go off in the holster by itself. Be honest, are you at least middle management at Sig USA? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYvAxLX6OzEThere were also other Glock legs with people having their finger in the trigger guard when reholstering The staging trigger thing was with the LASD and the SW M&P, not Glock People were shooting themselves in the leg with Glocks long, long before Serpa holsters ever came to market. Are you going to tell everyone that people started shooting themselves in the leg with Glocks 20 years after they'd been introduced? Try again with the fudd lore. |
|
Quoted: People were shooting themselves in the leg with Glocks long, long before Serpa holsters ever came to market. Are you going to tell everyone that people started shooting themselves in the leg with Glocks 20 years after they'd been introduced? Try again with the fudd lore. |
|
Quoted: of course not. there were also people shooting themselves in the leg when trying to disassemble and when trying to reholster with their finger in the trigger guard or a flimsy edge of a holster would push on the trigger. a lot of the holsters on the market back then weren't designed around Glock specific features and that led to NDs Quoted: Quoted: People were shooting themselves in the leg with Glocks long, long before Serpa holsters ever came to market. Are you going to tell everyone that people started shooting themselves in the leg with Glocks 20 years after they'd been introduced? Try again with the fudd lore. So now it's not mostly the Serpa that causes Glock Leg? Because you seemed pretty sure before. |
|
Quoted: Quite the opposite for me. I shot other pistols pretty well but the first time I gripped a Glock it was like "Now THIS is what I've been looking for. " Contrary to others, the grip angle is what sold me. Well, that an Glocks unmatched reputation for reliability and durability. Quoted: Quoted: I learned to shoot on a 1911. The first time I picked up a Glock I didn't like it. Didn't shoot it well and it didn't feel right in the hand. Immediately noticed the grip angle. I think it comes down to personal preference and if you've shot other guns with a different grip angle first. Quite the opposite for me. I shot other pistols pretty well but the first time I gripped a Glock it was like "Now THIS is what I've been looking for. " Contrary to others, the grip angle is what sold me. Well, that an Glocks unmatched reputation for reliability and durability. Right when I first got into handguns, I bought a 1911. A good friend of mine bought a glock 17 shortly after. We had been going to in indoor shooting range pretty regularly. He asked if I wanted to shoot his glock. Well, sure, I'd like to try it. I brought the gun up to eye level and I was staring at the top of the slide with the front sight a half inch or more higher than the rear. I had to slow way down and readjust for each shot. I hated it. Years later I got one of the polymer 80 frames, and it points naturally. I actually shoot it really well. But I don't like the pre-tensioned striker and lack of active safeties. I carry a DA/SA and I'm comfortable with it. |
|
Quoted: IVE SEEN VIDEOS OF HI POINTS BREAKING AND JAMMING BUT NEVER SEEN ONE JUST RANDOMLY FIRE A ROUND ON ITS OWN Attached File |
|
Quoted: There are no dangerous guns. There are dangrous operators, though. Quoted: Quoted: "Glock Leg" is real Do you ever hear "Smith and Wesson Model 66 Leg" ? Nope Because it doesnt happen. Plunger fired pistols are inherently more dangerous especially if they dont have a plunger that is locked by the safety. IMHO the best choice for a civilian side arm is a .357 revolver like the Model 60 or 640. Lady Smith is nice for the girlies. 125 grain 1450 fps approaches 600 ft/lbs with a 4 inch barrel. . There are no dangerous guns. There are dangrous operators, though. There are guns that are less forgiving and guns that are more forgiving. Be a safe shooter. But also take advantage of every available failsafe. To do otherwise is hubris. |
|
Quoted: There are no dangerous guns. There are dangrous operators, though. |
|
Quoted: I get what you sre saying for the majority of guns, but there are definitely unsafe firearms in the wild. Bad headspace, severe pitting, bore obstructions, bad sear engagement, bad ammo, sharp firing pin heads, etc... hopefully the firearms safety rules and good eye protection can mitigate most issues. There are also some guns that have cryptic manual of arms or operation, but they aren't common anymore or flaws are well known. Should have clarified “serviceable guns in proper mechanical condition with good ammo” LOL. But I think you get my point. 
|
|
Quoted: If the 320 had a sack it'd be resting on a lot chins... Attached File |
|
Quoted: People were shooting themselves in the leg with Glocks long, long before Serpa holsters ever came to market. Are you going to tell everyone that people started shooting themselves in the leg with Glocks 20 years after they'd been introduced? Try again with the fudd lore. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: This is the dumbest fucking comparison to the Sig debacle. The Glocks were firing into people's legs because people had horrible trigger habits from shooting heavy DA and DAO pistols. Lots of people were taught by idiots that were telling people to start staging the trigger as soon as the gun started to come out of the holster. Nobody is going to learn their way out of not getting shot in the leg by a P320 that decides to go off in the holster by itself. Be honest, are you at least middle management at Sig USA? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYvAxLX6OzEThere were also other Glock legs with people having their finger in the trigger guard when reholstering The staging trigger thing was with the LASD and the SW M&P, not Glock People were shooting themselves in the leg with Glocks long, long before Serpa holsters ever came to market. Are you going to tell everyone that people started shooting themselves in the leg with Glocks 20 years after they'd been introduced? Try again with the fudd lore. Glock Leg originally back in the day was retards shooting themselves in the leg while disassembling the pistol. Kharn |
|
Quoted: Glock Leg originally back in the day was retards shooting themselves in the leg while disassembling the pistol. Kharn I knew someone who shot herself in the hand disassembling her Glock. I always thought Glock leg was cops reholstering without looking at the holster. |
|
Quoted: I knew someone who shot herself in the hand disassembling her Glock. I always thought Glock leg was cops reholstering without looking at the holster. Quoted: Quoted: Glock Leg originally back in the day was retards shooting themselves in the leg while disassembling the pistol. Kharn I knew someone who shot herself in the hand disassembling her Glock. I always thought Glock leg was cops reholstering without looking at the holster. Our local sheriff shot himself in the hand several years back disassembling his glock lol. |
|
Quoted: Glock Leg originally back in the day was retards shooting themselves in the leg while disassembling the pistol. Kharn Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: This is the dumbest fucking comparison to the Sig debacle. The Glocks were firing into people's legs because people had horrible trigger habits from shooting heavy DA and DAO pistols. Lots of people were taught by idiots that were telling people to start staging the trigger as soon as the gun started to come out of the holster. Nobody is going to learn their way out of not getting shot in the leg by a P320 that decides to go off in the holster by itself. Be honest, are you at least middle management at Sig USA? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYvAxLX6OzEThere were also other Glock legs with people having their finger in the trigger guard when reholstering The staging trigger thing was with the LASD and the SW M&P, not Glock People were shooting themselves in the leg with Glocks long, long before Serpa holsters ever came to market. Are you going to tell everyone that people started shooting themselves in the leg with Glocks 20 years after they'd been introduced? Try again with the fudd lore. Glock Leg originally back in the day was retards shooting themselves in the leg while disassembling the pistol. Kharn From what I've seen that should more properly be called Glock Hand. Idiots who point the Glock at their palm on the other hand and pull the trigger when they intend to break it down for cleaning. I've seen way too many people point a Glock at their hand when doing that. Fortunately I didn't see any of them shoot their own hand. |
|
Quoted: Our local sheriff shot himself in the hand several years back disassembling his glock lol. I can't tell you how many calls I've gone to where someone shot themselves', leg or hand, and Glock isn't even close to being the number one culprit. Jay |
|
Quoted: There are guns that are less forgiving and guns that are more forgiving. Be a safe shooter. But also take advantage of every available failsafe. To do otherwise is hubris. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: "Glock Leg" is real Do you ever hear "Smith and Wesson Model 66 Leg" ? Nope Because it doesnt happen. Plunger fired pistols are inherently more dangerous especially if they dont have a plunger that is locked by the safety. IMHO the best choice for a civilian side arm is a .357 revolver like the Model 60 or 640. Lady Smith is nice for the girlies. 125 grain 1450 fps approaches 600 ft/lbs with a 4 inch barrel. There are no dangerous guns. There are dangrous operators, though. There are guns that are less forgiving and guns that are more forgiving. Be a safe shooter. But also take advantage of every available failsafe. To do otherwise is hubris.  You're advocating for Israeli carry?
|
|
Quoted: This has nothing to do with trigger pull asThe m18 and m17 safeties fully block trigger movement regardless of the lack of a trigger dingus. The issue is with the striker and/or sear releasing regardless of trigger movement; exacerbating the issue is the difficult in trying to diagnose and replicate it, as well as dogs continued head in the sand response of “there is no problem” Had secondary testing proceeded during the MHS as it was supposed to, it’s possible this could’ve been discovered and fixed before anyone died(this is what, the third person now?) So is it the striker? Is it the sear? What is it then? No one can say what it is they only say its this or that or that or my cousin says its this. No one can ever replicate it. There are MILLIONS of these pistols out there worldwide and all incidents seem to be related to American law enforcement. |
|
Quoted: So is it the striker? Is it the sear? What is it then? No one can say what it is they only say its this or that or that or my cousin says its this. No one can ever replicate it. There are MILLIONS of these pistols out there worldwide and all incidents seem to be related to American law enforcement. Would love to see your factual numbers with citations showing the exact proportion of P320s in use in the US vs the rest of the world. |
|
Quoted: So is it the striker? Is it the sear? What is it then? No one can say what it is they only say its this or that or that or my cousin says its this. No one can ever replicate it. There are MILLIONS of these pistols out there worldwide and all incidents seem to be related to American law enforcement. Quoted: Quoted: This has nothing to do with trigger pull asThe m18 and m17 safeties fully block trigger movement regardless of the lack of a trigger dingus. The issue is with the striker and/or sear releasing regardless of trigger movement; exacerbating the issue is the difficult in trying to diagnose and replicate it, as well as dogs continued head in the sand response of “there is no problem” Had secondary testing proceeded during the MHS as it was supposed to, it’s possible this could’ve been discovered and fixed before anyone died(this is what, the third person now?) So is it the striker? Is it the sear? What is it then? No one can say what it is they only say its this or that or that or my cousin says its this. No one can ever replicate it. There are MILLIONS of these pistols out there worldwide and all incidents seem to be related to American law enforcement. Sure. The gun's fine. It's all the shooters' fault...somehow. Even though we have video showing it's not. |
|
If anyone is interested, there's a 320 mega-thread on Sig Talk that's much less emotional and goes into huge technical detail about the fire control system. It's 132 pages long, but the first three pages are devoted to people who support Sig (and the 320) trying to hypothesize how the gun could fire on it's own. Very well worth reading. This is from the current days page. I'm excerpting portions of a post from someone going by DeputyDave, because it's easier than me trying to summarize. I don't own a 320, and have no interest in one, but I am very interested in how much vested argument is swaying the course of this discussion. DD seems to be of a similar mind. "But I will do so again regardless. I'm not defending the P320. Never have. I have stated multiple times that I could care less whether the P320 is dropped tomorrow or around for the next 50 years. I haven't even owned a P320 for about 8 years. What I do defend is logic, common sense and critical thinking. I also point out obvious bias when I see it because it's germane to the topic." "I view firearms like a tool. I can praise a firearm while at the same time blast the same firearm as appropriate. As an example, I like Glock. I teach Glock on an Academy level, in-service and EOT courses. I carried Glock for 20 of my 30 years. And I own several. That doesn't prevent me from discussing the myriad of issues Glocks have had over the years. So I'm not a 'Glocktard' nor am I a Glock-hater. I'm an adult that can look at all aspects of the brand and discuss it without emotion. Same with the P320. I didn't like how Sig handled the drop-safe issue and stated so at the time on multiple forums. At the same time, I find this current 'concern' on the P320 to be baseless. Why? For multiple reasons; - I have read completely biased articles from anti-2A 'journalists' that have omitted facts from their articles - I see completely unvetted and unverified claims from certain YT influencers who have admitted they are simply trying to get clicks/subs and grow their channel for financial gain - I see unsupported comments tossed out like it's factual information - I see a court case go against Sig (that was later reversed) because the trigger didn't have a dingus....that it doesn't need. They didn't prove the gun was faulty, they simply conned a jury into believing it was dangerous because it didn't have a part...that it didn't need - And most importantly, with nearly 4 million P320's sold in a myriad of models I have yet to see any professional demonstrate that an unmodified post-upgrade P320 in serviceable condition is capable of discharging without the trigger being depressed. - And I see some of the top P320 experts (Robert Burke as an example) on the planet explaining, in detail, why a P320 as described above can't discharge without the trigger being depressed - And I have seen Officers caught lying about the details of their ND that were later disciplined and/or terminated Things may change tomorrow in which case I will have new information in which to alter my POV. But as of right now, at this time, with the current information available, no one has ever demonstrated an unmodified post-upgrade P320 in serviceable condition is capable of discharging without the trigger being depressed. And that is the ONLY thing that is pertenant to the discussion." That portion I bolded is still the sticking point for me. It makes the circumstances of this Airman's death highly...suspect, to me. We'll see where the investigation goes. |
|
Quoted: "Uncommanded discharge" was my wrasslin name in High School. Attached File |
|
Quoted: If anyone is interested, there's a 320 mega-thread on Sig Talk that's much less emotional and goes into huge technical detail about the fire control system. It's 132 pages long, but the first three pages are devoted to people who support Sig (and the 320) trying to hypothesize how the gun could fire on it's own. Very well worth reading. This is from the current days page. I'm excerpting portions of a post from someone going by DeputyDave, because it's easier than me trying to summarize. I don't own a 320, and have no interest in one, but I am very interested in how much vested argument is swaying the course of this discussion. DD seems to be of a similar mind. "But I will do so again regardless. I'm not defending the P320. Never have. I have stated multiple times that I could care less whether the P320 is dropped tomorrow or around for the next 50 years. I haven't even owned a P320 for about 8 years. What I do defend is logic, common sense and critical thinking. I also point out obvious bias when I see it because it's germane to the topic." "I view firearms like a tool. I can praise a firearm while at the same time blast the same firearm as appropriate. As an example, I like Glock. I teach Glock on an Academy level, in-service and EOT courses. I carried Glock for 20 of my 30 years. And I own several. That doesn't prevent me from discussing the myriad of issues Glocks have had over the years. So I'm not a 'Glocktard' nor am I a Glock-hater. I'm an adult that can look at all aspects of the brand and discuss it without emotion. Same with the P320. I didn't like how Sig handled the drop-safe issue and stated so at the time on multiple forums. At the same time, I find this current 'concern' on the P320 to be baseless. Why? For multiple reasons; - I have read completely biased articles from anti-2A 'journalists' that have omitted facts from their articles - I see completely unvetted and unverified claims from certain YT influencers who have admitted they are simply trying to get clicks/subs and grow their channel for financial gain - I see unsupported comments tossed out like it's factual information - I see a court case go against Sig (that was later reversed) because the trigger didn't have a dingus....that it doesn't need. They didn't prove the gun was faulty, they simply conned a jury into believing it was dangerous because it didn't have a part...that it didn't need - And most importantly, with nearly 4 million P320's sold in a myriad of models I have yet to see any professional demonstrate that an unmodified post-upgrade P320 in serviceable condition is capable of discharging without the trigger being depressed. - And I see some of the top P320 experts (Robert Burke as an example) on the planet explaining, in detail, why a P320 as described above can't discharge without the trigger being depressed - And I have seen Officers caught lying about the details of their ND that were later disciplined and/or terminated Things may change tomorrow in which case I will have new information in which to alter my POV. But as of right now, at this time, with the current information available, no one has ever demonstrated an unmodified post-upgrade P320 in serviceable condition is capable of discharging without the trigger being depressed. And that is the ONLY thing that is pertenant to the discussion." That portion I bolded is still the sticking point for me. It makes the circumstances of this Airman's death highly...suspect, to me. We'll see where the investigation goes.  We have multiple videos of P320s discharging in clear holsters. We have additional written statements with witnesses reporting the same. We have the results of a vibration test conducted by Sig Sauer themselves showing primer strikes where there should be none from multiple guns. We have repeatable tests conducted by FBI labs and independent individuals (including members here) demonstrating that the striker safety system straight up doesn't work in a significant percentage of guns. We have multiple engineering analyses showing questionable wear and questionable engagement of key parts and surfaces. But yes, let's latch on to a Sig Talk thread that somehow manages to ignore all of that and blame the Airman. |
|
Quoted: If anyone is interested, there's a 320 mega-thread on Sig Talk that's much less emotional and goes into huge technical detail about the fire control system. It's 132 pages long, but the first three pages are devoted to people who support Sig (and the 320) trying to hypothesize how the gun could fire on it's own. Very well worth reading. This is from the current days page. I'm excerpting portions of a post from someone going by DeputyDave, because it's easier than me trying to summarize. I don't own a 320, and have no interest in one, but I am very interested in how much vested argument is swaying the course of this discussion. DD seems to be of a similar mind. "But I will do so again regardless. I'm not defending the P320. Never have. I have stated multiple times that I could care less whether the P320 is dropped tomorrow or around for the next 50 years. I haven't even owned a P320 for about 8 years. What I do defend is logic, common sense and critical thinking. I also point out obvious bias when I see it because it's germane to the topic." "I view firearms like a tool. I can praise a firearm while at the same time blast the same firearm as appropriate. As an example, I like Glock. I teach Glock on an Academy level, in-service and EOT courses. I carried Glock for 20 of my 30 years. And I own several. That doesn't prevent me from discussing the myriad of issues Glocks have had over the years. So I'm not a 'Glocktard' nor am I a Glock-hater. I'm an adult that can look at all aspects of the brand and discuss it without emotion. Same with the P320. I didn't like how Sig handled the drop-safe issue and stated so at the time on multiple forums. At the same time, I find this current 'concern' on the P320 to be baseless. Why? For multiple reasons; - I have read completely biased articles from anti-2A 'journalists' that have omitted facts from their articles - I see completely unvetted and unverified claims from certain YT influencers who have admitted they are simply trying to get clicks/subs and grow their channel for financial gain - I see unsupported comments tossed out like it's factual information - I see a court case go against Sig (that was later reversed) because the trigger didn't have a dingus....that it doesn't need. They didn't prove the gun was faulty, they simply conned a jury into believing it was dangerous because it didn't have a part...that it didn't need - And most importantly, with nearly 4 million P320's sold in a myriad of models I have yet to see any professional demonstrate that an unmodified post-upgrade P320 in serviceable condition is capable of discharging without the trigger being depressed. - And I see some of the top P320 experts (Robert Burke as an example) on the planet explaining, in detail, why a P320 as described above can't discharge without the trigger being depressed - And I have seen Officers caught lying about the details of their ND that were later disciplined and/or terminated Things may change tomorrow in which case I will have new information in which to alter my POV. But as of right now, at this time, with the current information available, no one has ever demonstrated an unmodified post-upgrade P320 in serviceable condition is capable of discharging without the trigger being depressed. And that is the ONLY thing that is pertenant to the discussion." That portion I bolded is still the sticking point for me. It makes the circumstances of this Airman's death highly...suspect, to me. We'll see where the investigation goes. To the bolded part, Carl Sagan used to like saying "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". Of course we don't have absolute evidence or proof of how this is happening. If we did it be getting fixed somehow. But that can't negate the fact that we know that its happening, that a problem indeed exists. |
|
Quoted: If anyone is interested, there's a 320 mega-thread on Sig Talk that's much less emotional and goes into huge technical detail about the fire control system. It's 132 pages long, but the first three pages are devoted to people who support Sig (and the 320) trying to hypothesize how the gun could fire on it's own. Very well worth reading. This is from the current days page. I'm excerpting portions of a post from someone going by DeputyDave, because it's easier than me trying to summarize. I don't own a 320, and have no interest in one, but I am very interested in how much vested argument is swaying the course of this discussion. DD seems to be of a similar mind. "But I will do so again regardless. I'm not defending the P320. Never have. I have stated multiple times that I could care less whether the P320 is dropped tomorrow or around for the next 50 years. I haven't even owned a P320 for about 8 years. What I do defend is logic, common sense and critical thinking. I also point out obvious bias when I see it because it's germane to the topic." "I view firearms like a tool. I can praise a firearm while at the same time blast the same firearm as appropriate. As an example, I like Glock. I teach Glock on an Academy level, in-service and EOT courses. I carried Glock for 20 of my 30 years. And I own several. That doesn't prevent me from discussing the myriad of issues Glocks have had over the years. So I'm not a 'Glocktard' nor am I a Glock-hater. I'm an adult that can look at all aspects of the brand and discuss it without emotion. Same with the P320. I didn't like how Sig handled the drop-safe issue and stated so at the time on multiple forums. At the same time, I find this current 'concern' on the P320 to be baseless. Why? For multiple reasons; - I have read completely biased articles from anti-2A 'journalists' that have omitted facts from their articles - I see completely unvetted and unverified claims from certain YT influencers who have admitted they are simply trying to get clicks/subs and grow their channel for financial gain - I see unsupported comments tossed out like it's factual information - I see a court case go against Sig (that was later reversed) because the trigger didn't have a dingus....that it doesn't need. They didn't prove the gun was faulty, they simply conned a jury into believing it was dangerous because it didn't have a part...that it didn't need - And most importantly, with nearly 4 million P320's sold in a myriad of models I have yet to see any professional demonstrate that an unmodified post-upgrade P320 in serviceable condition is capable of discharging without the trigger being depressed. - And I see some of the top P320 experts (Robert Burke as an example) on the planet explaining, in detail, why a P320 as described above can't discharge without the trigger being depressed - And I have seen Officers caught lying about the details of their ND that were later disciplined and/or terminated Things may change tomorrow in which case I will have new information in which to alter my POV. But as of right now, at this time, with the current information available, no one has ever demonstrated an unmodified post-upgrade P320 in serviceable condition is capable of discharging without the trigger being depressed. And that is the ONLY thing that is pertenant to the discussion." That portion I bolded is still the sticking point for me. It makes the circumstances of this Airman's death highly...suspect, to me. We'll see where the investigation goes. That must be dated, since the FBI did prove it can fire without the trigger being pulled. Countless others have too. |
|
Quoted: We have multiple videos of P320s discharging in clear holsters. We have additional written statements with witnesses reporting the same. We have the results of a vibration test conducted by Sig Sauer themselves showing primer strikes where there should be none from multiple guns. We have repeatable tests conducted by FBI labs and independent individuals (including members here) demonstrating that the striker safety system straight up doesn't work in a significant percentage of guns. We have multiple engineering analyses showing questionable wear and questionable engagement of key parts and surfaces. But yes, let's latch on to a Sig Talk thread that somehow manages to ignore all of that and blame the Airman. If all that is true, why hasn't the military pulled the weapon from service prior to this incident? What's a significant percentage? There are nearly 4 million in circulation, why aren't there hundreds of incidents? I'm unconvinced. |
|
Quoted: If anyone is interested, there's a 320 mega-thread on Sig Talk that's much less emotional and goes into huge technical detail about the fire control system. It's 132 pages long, but the first three pages are devoted to people who support Sig (and the 320) trying to hypothesize how the gun could fire on it's own. Very well worth reading. This is from the current days page. I'm excerpting portions of a post from someone going by DeputyDave, because it's easier than me trying to summarize. I don't own a 320, and have no interest in one, but I am very interested in how much vested argument is swaying the course of this discussion. DD seems to be of a similar mind. "But I will do so again regardless. I'm not defending the P320. Never have. I have stated multiple times that I could care less whether the P320 is dropped tomorrow or around for the next 50 years. I haven't even owned a P320 for about 8 years. What I do defend is logic, common sense and critical thinking. I also point out obvious bias when I see it because it's germane to the topic." "I view firearms like a tool. I can praise a firearm while at the same time blast the same firearm as appropriate. As an example, I like Glock. I teach Glock on an Academy level, in-service and EOT courses. I carried Glock for 20 of my 30 years. And I own several. That doesn't prevent me from discussing the myriad of issues Glocks have had over the years. So I'm not a 'Glocktard' nor am I a Glock-hater. I'm an adult that can look at all aspects of the brand and discuss it without emotion. Same with the P320. I didn't like how Sig handled the drop-safe issue and stated so at the time on multiple forums. At the same time, I find this current 'concern' on the P320 to be baseless. Why? For multiple reasons; - I have read completely biased articles from anti-2A 'journalists' that have omitted facts from their articles - I see completely unvetted and unverified claims from certain YT influencers who have admitted they are simply trying to get clicks/subs and grow their channel for financial gain - I see unsupported comments tossed out like it's factual information - I see a court case go against Sig (that was later reversed) because the trigger didn't have a dingus....that it doesn't need. They didn't prove the gun was faulty, they simply conned a jury into believing it was dangerous because it didn't have a part...that it didn't need - And most importantly, with nearly 4 million P320's sold in a myriad of models I have yet to see any professional demonstrate that an unmodified post-upgrade P320 in serviceable condition is capable of discharging without the trigger being depressed. - And I see some of the top P320 experts (Robert Burke as an example) on the planet explaining, in detail, why a P320 as described above can't discharge without the trigger being depressed - And I have seen Officers caught lying about the details of their ND that were later disciplined and/or terminated Things may change tomorrow in which case I will have new information in which to alter my POV. But as of right now, at this time, with the current information available, no one has ever demonstrated an unmodified post-upgrade P320 in serviceable condition is capable of discharging without the trigger being depressed. And that is the ONLY thing that is pertenant to the discussion." That portion I bolded is still the sticking point for me. It makes the circumstances of this Airman's death highly...suspect, to me. We'll see where the investigation goes. The only thing pertinent to this discussion is the (a) the death of the airman, (b) the military's reaction, and (c) all of the other agencies experiences and reactions. None of it is good and the list is growing. It's just an easily replaceable consumer product that nobody should spend any amount of time defending. |
|
Quoted: So is it the striker? Is it the sear? What is it then? No one can say what it is they only say its this or that or that or my cousin says its this. No one can ever replicate it. There are MILLIONS of these pistols out there worldwide and all incidents seem to be related to American law enforcement. Just look at sigs response to the FBI report of MSP pistols; their own fix is “we still don’t think anything is wrong but we’re going to alter the sear and striker engagement and show your armorers how to do it” All the info is out there, and anyone that still can’t see there is a fundamental flaw in the pistol just has their head in sand and is letting their emotional attachment to a brand or purchase get in the way of objective reasoning |
|
Quoted: You're advocating for Israeli carry?Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: "Glock Leg" is real Do you ever hear "Smith and Wesson Model 66 Leg" ? Nope Because it doesnt happen. Plunger fired pistols are inherently more dangerous especially if they dont have a plunger that is locked by the safety. IMHO the best choice for a civilian side arm is a .357 revolver like the Model 60 or 640. Lady Smith is nice for the girlies. 125 grain 1450 fps approaches 600 ft/lbs with a 4 inch barrel. There are no dangerous guns. There are dangrous operators, though. There are guns that are less forgiving and guns that are more forgiving. Be a safe shooter. But also take advantage of every available failsafe. To do otherwise is hubris. You're advocating for Israeli carry?Let's follow this idiotic assertion to its logical conclusion. It's safest not to carry at all. But no. What I'm saying is some guns are engineered to be more forgiving of the mistakes we are all capable of when we are tired, sick, half asleep, distracted, or any of the myriad ways we might screw up. People who think they are so careful they will never screw up are idiots. The "my finger is my safety" type who through sheer luck haven't had an accident yet, but in their arrogance attribute this to their own "flawless" skills and decision-making. Having a gun that mitigates the consequences of unsafe handling is better. Not so that you can relax and become complacent about safe handling. But because if you ever miss a beat, it might save your ass or someone else's. |
|
Quoted: If anyone is interested, there's a 320 mega-thread on Sig Talk that's much less emotional and goes into huge technical detail about the fire control system. It's 132 pages long, but the first three pages are devoted to people who support Sig (and the 320) trying to hypothesize how the gun could fire on it's own. Very well worth reading. This is from the current days page. I'm excerpting portions of a post from someone going by DeputyDave, because it's easier than me trying to summarize. I don't own a 320, and have no interest in one, but I am very interested in how much vested argument is swaying the course of this discussion. DD seems to be of a similar mind. "But I will do so again regardless. I'm not defending the P320. Never have. I have stated multiple times that I could care less whether the P320 is dropped tomorrow or around for the next 50 years. I haven't even owned a P320 for about 8 years. What I do defend is logic, common sense and critical thinking. I also point out obvious bias when I see it because it's germane to the topic." "I view firearms like a tool. I can praise a firearm while at the same time blast the same firearm as appropriate. As an example, I like Glock. I teach Glock on an Academy level, in-service and EOT courses. I carried Glock for 20 of my 30 years. And I own several. That doesn't prevent me from discussing the myriad of issues Glocks have had over the years. So I'm not a 'Glocktard' nor am I a Glock-hater. I'm an adult that can look at all aspects of the brand and discuss it without emotion. Same with the P320. I didn't like how Sig handled the drop-safe issue and stated so at the time on multiple forums. At the same time, I find this current 'concern' on the P320 to be baseless. Why? For multiple reasons; - I have read completely biased articles from anti-2A 'journalists' that have omitted facts from their articles - I see completely unvetted and unverified claims from certain YT influencers who have admitted they are simply trying to get clicks/subs and grow their channel for financial gain - I see unsupported comments tossed out like it's factual information - I see a court case go against Sig (that was later reversed) because the trigger didn't have a dingus....that it doesn't need. They didn't prove the gun was faulty, they simply conned a jury into believing it was dangerous because it didn't have a part...that it didn't need - And most importantly, with nearly 4 million P320's sold in a myriad of models I have yet to see any professional demonstrate that an unmodified post-upgrade P320 in serviceable condition is capable of discharging without the trigger being depressed. - And I see some of the top P320 experts (Robert Burke as an example) on the planet explaining, in detail, why a P320 as described above can't discharge without the trigger being depressed - And I have seen Officers caught lying about the details of their ND that were later disciplined and/or terminated Things may change tomorrow in which case I will have new information in which to alter my POV. But as of right now, at this time, with the current information available, no one has ever demonstrated an unmodified post-upgrade P320 in serviceable condition is capable of discharging without the trigger being depressed. And that is the ONLY thing that is pertenant to the discussion." That portion I bolded is still the sticking point for me. It makes the circumstances of this Airman's death highly...suspect, to me. We'll see where the investigation goes. I can respect this take, and can agree to a certain extent that Sig produces way more good pistols than bad, BUT would only offer that despite the comment in bold being accurate, I find it incredibly interesting that the "uncommanded discharge issue only seems to effect sig 320's and lends credence to the claims that somethings going on. Sig isnt the only gun that has heavy aftermarket support and is commonly modified and I honestly just dont see the issues in those platforms. Its sort of like dog bites, yeah, labs, and german shephards do bite people, but its an order of magnitude more likely that if you here about a dog bite, its probably going to be a pit bull derivative. |
|
Quoted: If all that is true, why hasn't the military pulled the weapon from service prior to this incident? What's a significant percentage? There are nearly 4 million in circulation, why aren't there hundreds of incidents? I'm unconvinced. There have been, if you bothered to follow along. |
|
Quoted: If all that is true, why hasn't the military pulled the weapon from service prior to this incident? What's a significant percentage? There are nearly 4 million in circulation, why aren't there hundreds of incidents? I'm unconvinced. Quoted: Quoted: We have multiple videos of P320s discharging in clear holsters. We have additional written statements with witnesses reporting the same. We have the results of a vibration test conducted by Sig Sauer themselves showing primer strikes where there should be none from multiple guns. We have repeatable tests conducted by FBI labs and independent individuals (including members here) demonstrating that the striker safety system straight up doesn't work in a significant percentage of guns. We have multiple engineering analyses showing questionable wear and questionable engagement of key parts and surfaces. But yes, let's latch on to a Sig Talk thread that somehow manages to ignore all of that and blame the Airman. If all that is true, why hasn't the military pulled the weapon from service prior to this incident? What's a significant percentage? There are nearly 4 million in circulation, why aren't there hundreds of incidents? I'm unconvinced. Hard evidence of all of the above exists in the big thread right here on Arfcom. Depending upon who is testing the striker safety and how, failure rates seem to be somewhere around 20-30%. The is the only meaningful safety device on any P320 that doesn't have a manual safety, and this is the only one in play for people (like the USAF) who carry manual safety models with the safety off. There ARE hundreds of incidents that we know about. Some are civilian, some are LE, and some are military. I think the injury lawsuit count is now well over 100. The majority of the incidents are not publicly reported, so the actual number is much higher. The Department of Homeland Security went from being primary user of Sig firearms to banning the P320 from use. The P320 has been dropped/banned by multiple major LE agencies including Dallas, Denver, Chicago, and Milwaukee. The P320 has been banned from use at state level LE training academies in Washington and Oklahoma. The P320 is now being banned from ranges and clubs including Gunsite and at least some USPSA clubs. There must be some factor, some reason why all of this is happening, and I don't think it's because an anonymous dude with a balaclava over his face on YouTube is saying mean things about the P320. |
|
Quoted: If anyone is interested, there's a 320 mega-thread on Sig Talk that's much less emotional and goes into huge technical detail about the fire control system. It's 132 pages long, but the first three pages are devoted to people who support Sig (and the 320) trying to hypothesize how the gun could fire on it's own. Very well worth reading. This is from the current days page. I'm excerpting portions of a post from someone going by DeputyDave, because it's easier than me trying to summarize. I don't own a 320, and have no interest in one, but I am very interested in how much vested argument is swaying the course of this discussion. DD seems to be of a similar mind. "But I will do so again regardless. I'm not defending the P320. Never have. I have stated multiple times that I could care less whether the P320 is dropped tomorrow or around for the next 50 years. I haven't even owned a P320 for about 8 years. What I do defend is logic, common sense and critical thinking. I also point out obvious bias when I see it because it's germane to the topic." "I view firearms like a tool. I can praise a firearm while at the same time blast the same firearm as appropriate. As an example, I like Glock. I teach Glock on an Academy level, in-service and EOT courses. I carried Glock for 20 of my 30 years. And I own several. That doesn't prevent me from discussing the myriad of issues Glocks have had over the years. So I'm not a 'Glocktard' nor am I a Glock-hater. I'm an adult that can look at all aspects of the brand and discuss it without emotion. Same with the P320. I didn't like how Sig handled the drop-safe issue and stated so at the time on multiple forums. At the same time, I find this current 'concern' on the P320 to be baseless. Why? For multiple reasons; - I have read completely biased articles from anti-2A 'journalists' that have omitted facts from their articles - I see completely unvetted and unverified claims from certain YT influencers who have admitted they are simply trying to get clicks/subs and grow their channel for financial gain - I see unsupported comments tossed out like it's factual information - I see a court case go against Sig (that was later reversed) because the trigger didn't have a dingus....that it doesn't need. They didn't prove the gun was faulty, they simply conned a jury into believing it was dangerous because it didn't have a part...that it didn't need - And most importantly, with nearly 4 million P320's sold in a myriad of models I have yet to see any professional demonstrate that an unmodified post-upgrade P320 in serviceable condition is capable of discharging without the trigger being depressed. - And I see some of the top P320 experts (Robert Burke as an example) on the planet explaining, in detail, why a P320 as described above can't discharge without the trigger being depressed - And I have seen Officers caught lying about the details of their ND that were later disciplined and/or terminated Things may change tomorrow in which case I will have new information in which to alter my POV. But as of right now, at this time, with the current information available, no one has ever demonstrated an unmodified post-upgrade P320 in serviceable condition is capable of discharging without the trigger being depressed. And that is the ONLY thing that is pertenant to the discussion." That portion I bolded is still the sticking point for me. It makes the circumstances of this Airman's death highly...suspect, to me. We'll see where the investigation goes. Is the deputy guy on that Sig page living under a rock? There are quite a few clear videos of Sig P320's going off while being reholstered, without the officer having their finger on the trigger. And the "I have seen officers caught lying" about their "ND" - if that was the case I bet Sig would have heavily publicized it, yet I have yet to hear of a single case where the officer/deputy lied about their P320 having an UD. And at the most basic level he seems to gloss completely over the countless videos of the gun going off when dropped, just mentioning the "post upgrade" part, yet to this day Sig adamantly denies that any P320 can go off without a trigger pull and refused to do a formal recall of the pistols and instead made it just a voluntary recall... |
|
Quoted: If all that is true, why hasn't the military pulled the weapon from service prior to this incident? What's a significant percentage? There are nearly 4 million in circulation, why aren't there hundreds of incidents? I'm unconvinced. Quoted: Quoted: We have multiple videos of P320s discharging in clear holsters. We have additional written statements with witnesses reporting the same. We have the results of a vibration test conducted by Sig Sauer themselves showing primer strikes where there should be none from multiple guns. We have repeatable tests conducted by FBI labs and independent individuals (including members here) demonstrating that the striker safety system straight up doesn't work in a significant percentage of guns. We have multiple engineering analyses showing questionable wear and questionable engagement of key parts and surfaces. But yes, let's latch on to a Sig Talk thread that somehow manages to ignore all of that and blame the Airman. If all that is true, why hasn't the military pulled the weapon from service prior to this incident? What's a significant percentage? There are nearly 4 million in circulation, why aren't there hundreds of incidents? I'm unconvinced. There *have* been hundreds of incidents. Copious threads, news articles, YT videos, and carrier pigeon dialogs have all covered them. 95% of people reading these thread titles aren't actually paying attention to the details. The FBI report and the previous technical report show clearly how a gun can fail, even if they didn't get one to do so on video on command. If an event is possible but very low probability, then given enough iterations eventually the event will occur. |
|
Quoted: It's because we say prayers for the AIWB people and ask that their stupid-ass-decision to carry that way does not negatively impact their life or their families lives. ymmv, fwiw . Quoted: Quoted: I would like to report that I just got back from picking up some lunch. AIWB the whole time and my dick and balls are still intact. No it was not a P320/M17/M18 It's because we say prayers for the AIWB people and ask that their stupid-ass-decision to carry that way does not negatively impact their life or their families lives. ymmv, fwiw .  Quoted: "Glock Leg" is real Do you ever hear "Smith and Wesson Model 66 Leg" ? Nope Because it doesnt happen. Plunger fired pistols are inherently more dangerous especially if they dont have a plunger that is locked by the safety. IMHO the best choice for a civilian side arm is a .357 revolver like the Model 60 or 640. Lady Smith is nice for the girlies. 125 grain 1450 fps approaches 600 ft/lbs with a 4 inch barrel. . The more you post, the worse it gets. |
|
In my mind at this point, even if I pretend there is absolutely nothing "wrong" with the pistol's design and parts and function, the fact that it's so sensitive as to require extra-special handling to be absolutely safe just completely takes it off the table for me personally for any use. I don't want to lug something like that, that I essentially gotta treat like an IED waiting to be disarmed, around with me day in day out, getting in and outta our vehicles, or have it around my loved ones or even strangers. I know Ima sounding like a broken record here, but my new litmus test is remember the ole Beretta, and on safe I would not even freak out if I accidentally dropped the ole gal. And like it should be, when on safe, I'd have absolutely zero concern about how it might be pressing against its holster and the like when I'm driving and moving about and strapping it on before I head out etc. IMHO, in this specific case, the quest for an extreme "easy shooter" kinda sadly resulted in an easy discharger. |
|
Quoted: If all that is true, why hasn't the military pulled the weapon from service prior to this incident? What's a significant percentage? There are nearly 4 million in circulation, why aren't there hundreds of incidents? I'm unconvinced. Quoted: Quoted: We have multiple videos of P320s discharging in clear holsters. We have additional written statements with witnesses reporting the same. We have the results of a vibration test conducted by Sig Sauer themselves showing primer strikes where there should be none from multiple guns. We have repeatable tests conducted by FBI labs and independent individuals (including members here) demonstrating that the striker safety system straight up doesn't work in a significant percentage of guns. We have multiple engineering analyses showing questionable wear and questionable engagement of key parts and surfaces. But yes, let's latch on to a Sig Talk thread that somehow manages to ignore all of that and blame the Airman. If all that is true, why hasn't the military pulled the weapon from service prior to this incident? What's a significant percentage? There are nearly 4 million in circulation, why aren't there hundreds of incidents? I'm unconvinced. ICE experienced a multitude of issues including many uncommanded discharges, and never the same pistol twice. You never heard about them. All you heard was ICE and HSI switching back to Glock. |
|
... this airman's death seems to have hit a nerve for the remaining sig supporters. I guess they finally realized that the 320 discharges are going to have consequences. This death is dreadful but it (so far) hasn't changed the techical end of the conversation or what we know about 320s and sig. One of the worst outcomes for sig is that they investigate this very thoroughly, and find out that the airman was in no way responsible for the discharge ... but they can't figure out why the gun discharged. <---- this seems a plausible outcome to me. That would put this whole mess very squarely in sig's lap. |
|
Quoted: ... this airman's death seems to have hit a nerve for the remaining sig supporters. I guess they finally realized that the 320 dischargers are going to have consequences. This death is dreadful but it (so far) hasn't changed the techical end of the conversation or what we know about 320s and sig. One of the worst outcomes for sig is that they investigate this very thoroughly, and find out that the airman was in no way responsible for the discharge ... but they can't figure out why the gun discharged. <---- this seems a plausible outcome to me. That would put this whole mess very squarely in sig's lap. The internet Sig defenders have certainly been silent. |
|
Quoted: I knew someone who shot herself in the hand disassembling her Glock. I always thought Glock leg was cops reholstering without looking at the holster. Quoted: Quoted: Glock Leg originally back in the day was retards shooting themselves in the leg while disassembling the pistol. Kharn I knew someone who shot herself in the hand disassembling her Glock. I always thought Glock leg was cops reholstering without looking at the holster. I've handled two cases where LE shot themselves in the leg with Glocks. In both cases they had their finger on the trigger and tried to re-holster their pistol during a felony stop. |
|
Quoted: The internet Sig defenders have certainly been silent. Surprisingly, they have not been quiet on Twitter. They are still in full Simp mode quite a few of them are trying to place the blame on the airmen for setting the holstered gun down facing towards him. You also have the usual, it hasn’t happened to me so it’s fine and these are all user error. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Sig M18 might have just killed an Airman (Page 16 of 28)
Join the Community
Your next conversation starts here.
Create your free account to join discussions, share your experience, save topics, and connect with the AR15.COM community.
- Join discussions
- Follow topics and replies
- Connect with fellow enthusiasts
Already a member? Sign in
Stay informed by subscribing to our Newsletter