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Posted: 5/23/2019 6:03:14 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: True, they begin adoption and Fielding by 2020/2021, it'll take years to replace all the M4s in service. 
How many times have you predicted the M4 getting replaced and were wrong? |
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Posted: 5/23/2019 6:03:28 PM EDT
[#2]
The 600m Armor Penetration is not going to happen.
Current civilian Level IV is capable of stopping M993 Tungsten AP @ 2850fps from 40' away: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ND9nn4oCIbg As for the 6.8, the current rumor is a 135gr projectile. 6.8 was chosen as they could not get a lead free 135gr in 6.5, as well as getting slightly higher velocity per inch of barrel with 6.8 vs 6.5 due to swept bore volume: "We also know from ACC responses to NGSW industry questions that the Lake City Army Ammunition Plant have not developed a cartridge designed for the 6.8mm projectile and the the will Government only be providing 6.8mm projectiles not completed rounds. The responses also justified the choice of a 6.8mm projectile saying: “The 6.8mm caliber projectile cannot change. A 6.8mm caliber is large enough to achieve Government’s required outcomes whereas a 6.5mm caliber cannot.” And per Janes: "Textron Systems confirmed to Jane's during the Association of the United States Army (AUSA) annual conference that its submissions for the US Army's Next Generation Squad Weapons (NGSWs) requirement - the NGSW-R (rifle) and the NGSW-AR (automatic rifle) - will be chambered for a 6.8 mm cased telescopic (CT) cartridge. Moreover, it is understood that the 135 grain 6.8 mm projectiles have been provided to NGSW bidders by the US government." |
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Posted: 5/23/2019 6:04:29 PM EDT
[#3]
Gross
Grendel/creedmoor |
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Posted: 5/23/2019 6:04:50 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
270 WSM. Won't ever happen on a service rifle. Any cartridge with that kinda smash will eat barrels and shoulders. The average troop these days has never fired a gun and to toss them a weapon with 270WSM recoil and say have at would be a huge mistake. Advanced and experienced shooters sure but rank and file grunt, sky cop etc. It would be a huge mistake. |
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Posted: 5/23/2019 6:05:23 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
https://i.imgur.com/DqA2jQh.gif |
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Posted: 5/23/2019 6:09:13 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Barrel life? 
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Posted: 5/23/2019 6:11:09 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If anything, it should have the performance like a 270 Winchester, not a short mag. ASSuming it's a .308 necked down to .277, that's a few grains less powder than a 270, which is *essentially* a 30-06 necked down to .277 (actually a 30/03 necked down, but muh semantics.) https://ronspomeroutdoors.com/blog/270-winchester-and-7mm-08-remington-race/ |
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Posted: 5/23/2019 6:11:47 PM EDT
[#8]
Waste of money. I guess Sig will be our main arms suppliers now if selected.
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Posted: 5/23/2019 6:12:03 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If a combat arms soldier can't handle it, they can be kicked out or transferred to a soft skills job. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
270 WSM. Won't ever happen on a service rifle. Any cartridge with that kinda smash will eat barrels and shoulders. The average troop these days has never fired a gun and to toss them a weapon with 270WSM recoil and say have at would be a huge mistake. Advanced and experienced shooters sure but rank and file grunt, sky cop etc. It would be a huge mistake. Unless you're in Ranger Batt, Special Forces, Delta Force. The military doesn't do a good job maintaining equipment for the weapons we have now. Much less ones that will likely wear out the barrels and the guns faster. |
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Posted: 5/23/2019 6:13:20 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That’s almost a word for word quote of what you’ve been saying for several years about several different firearms and calibers... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Joglee thread M4 isn’t going anywhere @GS5414
That’s almost a word for word quote of what you’ve been saying for several years about several different firearms and calibers... |
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Posted: 5/23/2019 6:14:49 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So dumb. 6.8 has shit BC, compared to either side of it’s diameter 6.5mm and 7mm. The longer you hang onto velocity through BC, the further your armor penetration reach is extended. How can they be this dumb. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Looks like we finally get to see the guns and ammo that will be replacing the M4 and M249. Remember the ammo must achieve Level IV armor penetration at 600M, which explains why it's a 6.8x51 round. The new ammo performs similarly to .270 win short mag. http://soldiersystems.net/2019/05/23/sofic-19-sig-sauer-exhibits-next-gen-squad-weapons/ The M249 replacement is pushing 3,000+ fps out of a 16" barrel. http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/1E700916-3374-4287-A2E9-4D00755B9C5E-440x150.jpeg The carbine is pushing 2,800+fps out of a 13" barrel. http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/A042D878-1966-4149-B029-B401C1B55C42-440x150.jpeg Ammo size, 6.8x51. http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/E4B304B7-9459-41FF-9BC8-60B64842E9F2-440x145.jpeg 6.8 has shit BC, compared to either side of it’s diameter 6.5mm and 7mm. The longer you hang onto velocity through BC, the further your armor penetration reach is extended. How can they be this dumb. How heavy will it be? What is the chamber pressure? 65k? 80k? Easily achievable with the right powder. |
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Posted: 5/23/2019 6:15:08 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If a combat arms soldier can't handle it, they can be kicked out or transferred to a soft skills job. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
270 WSM. Won't ever happen on a service rifle. Any cartridge with that kinda smash will eat barrels and shoulders. The average troop these days has never fired a gun and to toss them a weapon with 270WSM recoil and say have at would be a huge mistake. Advanced and experienced shooters sure but rank and file grunt, sky cop etc. It would be a huge mistake. |
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Posted: 5/23/2019 6:15:26 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So basically a MK48 and AR10 shooting a special high velocity AP round. belt fed might have a future but I doubt the M4 is going anywhere. Especially since our current enemies wear sheets instead of body armor. |
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Posted: 5/23/2019 6:21:27 PM EDT
[#14]
Should have gone with 6.5 CM. The sectional density leads to a 87% increase in purse swinging.
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Posted: 5/23/2019 6:24:48 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Barrel life? PRS guys shooting 6mm at around 3000+ fps are dropping in new barrels at 1k rounds. Now I know they don't need single hole groups, but those speeds kill the barrel throats fast. Curious if they have come up with something to negate this. |
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Posted: 5/23/2019 6:32:44 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If 6.5mm and 7mm bullets can easily achieve .500 G1 BC than a bullet in between calibers will do the same. How heavy will it be? What is the chamber pressure? 65k? 80k? Easily achievable with the right powder. 6.5mm ELD-M 147gr. has a G1 BC of .697. Wow. It’s worse than I thought. That’s a staggeringly shit BC. 6.8mm has BC herpes. Again day 1 shit here. There are 120gr. weight range 6.5mm projectiles with G1 BCs in the .6 range. There are 2 off the shelf options for this in 6.5mm, .260 or 6.5 Creedmoor. Both blow away the 6.8-08 in every metric. Both with RL16 can push 120gr. bullets around 3,000 FPS with sane chamber pressures. I am shocked that people that do this for a living can be this dumb. |
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Posted: 5/23/2019 6:41:56 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So a quick check on 6.8mm projectiles. 145gr. ELD-X has a G1 BC of .536. 6.5mm ELD-M 147gr. has a G1 BC of .697. Wow. It’s worse than I thought. That’s a staggeringly shit BC. 6.8mm has BC herpes. Again day 1 shit here. There are 120gr. weight range 6.5mm projectiles with G1 BCs in the .6 range. There are 2 off the shelf options for this in 6.5mm, .260 or 6.5 Creedmoor. Both blow away the 6.8-08 in every metric. Both with RL16 can push 120gr. bullets around 3,000 FPS with sane chamber pressures. I am shocked that people that do this for a living can be this dumb. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: If 6.5mm and 7mm bullets can easily achieve .500 G1 BC than a bullet in between calibers will do the same. How heavy will it be? What is the chamber pressure? 65k? 80k? Easily achievable with the right powder. 6.5mm ELD-M 147gr. has a G1 BC of .697. Wow. It’s worse than I thought. That’s a staggeringly shit BC. 6.8mm has BC herpes. Again day 1 shit here. There are 120gr. weight range 6.5mm projectiles with G1 BCs in the .6 range. There are 2 off the shelf options for this in 6.5mm, .260 or 6.5 Creedmoor. Both blow away the 6.8-08 in every metric. Both with RL16 can push 120gr. bullets around 3,000 FPS with sane chamber pressures. I am shocked that people that do this for a living can be this dumb. |
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Posted: 5/23/2019 6:44:44 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is like the last episode of GOT. 6.8/.270? Seriously? |
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Posted: 5/23/2019 7:14:18 PM EDT
[#19]
The “muh 6.5” crowd sees 6.8 and starts foaming at the mouth. The 6.8 appears to be a lead free bullet, so by it’s very nature will a completely different design than the 6.8 SPC and obviously have a higher BC for the same weight as the SPC. With the higher chamber pressures, barrel life becomes a concern as well as overall length for magazines. Not everything is about BC dick measuring contests.
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Posted: 5/23/2019 7:24:54 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not everything is about BC dick measuring contests. |
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Posted: 5/23/2019 7:29:46 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
FPNI PRS guys shooting 6mm at around 3000+ fps are dropping in new barrels at 1k rounds. Now I know they don't need single hole groups, but those speeds kill the barrel throats fast. Curious if they have come up with something to negate this. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Barrel life? PRS guys shooting 6mm at around 3000+ fps are dropping in new barrels at 1k rounds. Now I know they don't need single hole groups, but those speeds kill the barrel throats fast. Curious if they have come up with something to negate this. PRS Guys toss a barrel when they become over 1MOA. A Machine Gun barrel is tossed when over 20% of the bullets are keyholing, or velocity has been reduced -250fps due to barrel erosion... PRS Barrels are made of button rifled stainless steel. A basic LMG barrel is 4150cm thats been cold hammer forged and then chrome lined - an overall much more wear resistant barrel. Then there's evolutions in barrel technology. The 416 has shown that using superior steel to 4150 + using a harder heat treatment can greatly increase barrel life. Thats at the low end. At the high end, the Army has developed flow formed cobalt/inconel/stelite supealloy barrels for the M240 and MK48 that can go 60,000rds before wearing out. https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/1008453.pdf https://ndiastorage.blob.core.usgovcloudapi.net/ndia/2016/armament/18355_Armstrong.pdf |
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Posted: 5/23/2019 7:34:34 PM EDT
[#22]
Joglee your a broken record. I don’t think this program will go any further than the scar program went. The scar was predicted by many to be an m4 replacement and yet it isn’t.
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Posted: 5/23/2019 7:57:53 PM EDT
[#23]
If only the army was already able to manage 1000s barrels that needed replaced at less then 1000 rounds...
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Posted: 5/23/2019 7:59:52 PM EDT
[#24]
Joglee, how many different weapons are replacing what we have now. Every thread if yours its something different. Make up your mind.
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Posted: 5/23/2019 9:11:45 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The “muh 6.5” crowd sees 6.8 and starts foaming at the mouth. The 6.8 appears to be a lead free bullet, so by it’s very nature will a completely different design than the 6.8 SPC and obviously have a higher BC for the same weight as the SPC. With the higher chamber pressures, barrel life becomes a concern as well as overall length for magazines. Not everything is about BC dick measuring contests. 6.8mm is the wrong answer. 6.5mm is a better answer. If you dispute this show us mathematically how you arrive at your conclusion. Why would someone want a bullet with a significantly reduced hit probability. BC and hit probability are directly proportional. Everything is irrelevant if you miss the target. This is a .270-08, not a 155mm with air burst. Let's be honest guys, this is a money making / government sponsored welfare case. There is an off the shelf superior option in 6.5 CM or .260, but that will make WAY less money. This is a case and point of the wastefulness greed and stupidity of government. |
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Posted: 5/23/2019 9:14:12 PM EDT
[#26]
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Posted: 5/23/2019 9:15:01 PM EDT
[#27]
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Posted: 5/23/2019 9:22:28 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How, then, did people cope with the Garand? Our soldiers in WW2 coped with the Garand in the sense that they carried it around and shot it. Doesn't necessarily mean their effective accuracy with it was particularly good compared to carbines in smaller cartridges. The effective accuracy our current soldiers will have with this 6.8 wondergun will probably be pretty comparable to what our soldiers from WW2 achieved with their Garands. |
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Posted: 5/23/2019 9:27:30 PM EDT
[#29]
No caseless telescopic ammo?
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Posted: 5/23/2019 9:29:28 PM EDT
[#30]
Eh, I’m a KAC LAMG fanboy.
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Posted: 5/23/2019 9:37:31 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No caseless telescopic ammo? This, but in 6.8: 
The other strong contender will be General Dynamics, which has paired with True Velocity and their very nicely designed Hybrid Polymer/Steel cases: 
FN is the real mystery, no idea what they are submitting in terms of lightweight cases. |
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Posted: 5/23/2019 9:44:09 PM EDT
[#32]
I'd really like to see the credentials of the .mil folks that are supplying the requirements for the endless "M4/M249 replacement" RFP's.......
If nothing else, they are smart enough to have figured out how to make a living out of it....... |
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Posted: 5/23/2019 9:56:30 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sorry you don't like mathematical answers. 6.8mm is the wrong answer. 6.5mm is a better answer. If you dispute this show us mathematically how you arrive at your conclusion. Why would someone want a bullet with a significantly reduced hit probability. BC and hit probability are directly proportional. Everything is irrelevant if you miss the target. This is a .270-08, not a 155mm with air burst. Let's be honest guys, this is a money making / government sponsored welfare case. There is an off the shelf superior option in 6.5 CM or .260, but that will make WAY less money. This is a case and point of the wastefulness greed and stupidity of government. The whole problem with tungsten is that the nation's available supply is fairly small. Small enough that it's not worth wasting it to standardize tungsten carbine ammo. Seems to me like if they seriously want to punch next gen body armor they could procure an AR10 in 6.5 Creedmoor issued out as a specialty thing to certain units that will actually get deployed to areas where the enemy will be wearing this armor. Then procure softpoints/OTMs and a good tungsten AP or API round to issue when needed. They'd also need to let go of the idea of doing this with an SBR and really light ammo. An AR10 with an 18"-20" barrel, a combat load of 4-6 25-round mags, and 6.5 Creedmoor tungsten core M855A1-style AP rounds all issued out only to units where they expect to face enemies with cutting edge armor (like the units deployed in eastern Europe as a deterrent against Russia) would address the stated need without forcing the entire military to dump the M4 for something less practical. |
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Posted: 5/23/2019 10:05:02 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So a quick check on 6.8mm projectiles. 145gr. ELD-X has a G1 BC of .536. 6.5mm ELD-M 147gr. has a G1 BC of .697. Wow. It’s worse than I thought. That’s a staggeringly shit BC. 6.8mm has BC herpes. Again day 1 shit here. There are 120gr. weight range 6.5mm projectiles with G1 BCs in the .6 range. There are 2 off the shelf options for this in 6.5mm, .260 or 6.5 Creedmoor. Both blow away the 6.8-08 in every metric. Both with RL16 can push 120gr. bullets around 3,000 FPS with sane chamber pressures. I am shocked that people that do this for a living can be this dumb. |
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Posted: 5/23/2019 10:07:14 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
https://i.imgur.com/DqA2jQh.gif |
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Posted: 5/23/2019 10:10:05 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
"Recoil Mitigation System" is included |
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Posted: 5/23/2019 10:13:15 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The bullet diameter is irrelevant. It's shocking that you keep repeating this nonsense. |
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Posted: 5/23/2019 10:22:37 PM EDT
[#38]
So this is supposed to have less than 3lbs of recoil force.... that is pretty spectacular.
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Posted: 5/23/2019 10:30:45 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The M4A1 is going to be around for a long time to come.  |
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Posted: 5/23/2019 10:32:20 PM EDT
[#40]
There is a lot of wisdom in here. 5.56 is just fine.
 P&S ModCast 107 - Gun Nerds 8: 308 Gas Guns |
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Posted: 5/23/2019 10:35:49 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'd really like to see the credentials of the .mil folks that are supplying the requirements for the endless "M4/M249 replacement" RFP's....... If nothing else, they are smart enough to have figured out how to make a living out of it....... The new starman says "X was retarded, let's do Y." Rinse and repeat. |
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Posted: 5/23/2019 10:43:25 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The bullet diameter is irrelevant. It's shocking that you keep repeating this nonsense. Please expound. |
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Posted: 5/23/2019 10:46:07 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Good, I like the M4A1. In fact, it's my f*ckin name. On my first deployment in 2003 I had to buy my own ACOG as their wasn't enough to go around. I bet when my 11yr old turns 18 and goes to basic he will be qualifying with old M4s still. |
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Posted: 5/23/2019 10:50:35 PM EDT
[#44]
Issue new Block II M4A1s to the entire Army and be done with it. Proven system, establish service support/parts and less cash wasted on these so called grail guns.
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Posted: 5/23/2019 10:51:53 PM EDT
[#45]
If you went in the Marine Corps back in 66 you'd have qualified with an old Springfield '06
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Posted: 5/23/2019 10:53:40 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Issue new Block II M4A1s to the entire Army and be done with it. Proven system, establish service support/parts and less cash wasted on these so called grail guns. |
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Posted: 5/23/2019 10:54:51 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Issue new Block II M4A1s to the entire Army and be done with it. Proven system, establish service support/parts and less cash wasted on these so called grail guns. |
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Posted: 5/23/2019 11:00:33 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So an increased frontal surface area doesn't cause increased drag, all other variables being equal? This even works in round lead balls from muzzleloaders. If cartridge overall length is dictated by magazine compatibility, the length of the ogive is retricted to a range compatible with the length of the cartridge case and the maximum length that will function through the magazine. An easy example is the AR15. Necking up the 5.56 to 6mm gains all sorts of high BC 6mm bullets, but their longer ogives and overall length make loading them to magazine length a problem. 6.8 bullets for the 6.8 SPC nessisarily have short ogives to fit in the magazine, limiting their ballistic potential. Only one thing stops people from making .277 bullets with BC's equal or better than the various .264 examples. There is little demand. People used .224, 6mm 6.5 and .30 caliber (and more recently 7mm) for target shooting, we get match bullets in those diameters because there is a demand for them. In .277 you have mostly hunting bullets for the .270 Winchester and short stubby bullets for the 6.8. There isn't much else because there isn't the demand. Short of military use, why would you? You would just use the now plentiful .284 long range bullets instead. No reason to reinvent the wheel over .007". |
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Posted: 5/23/2019 11:04:05 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: BC is irrelevant? Please expound. ETA: Ballistic coefficient does not equal higher hit probability in military small arms. What it might do for you is increase penetration at range, which appears to be something in demand. Whether or not this is of actually utility is still in doubt. Velocity is much more important to trajectory than BC over the ranges where small arms are commonly used. |
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Posted: 5/23/2019 11:04:33 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If this goes anywhere, I can see 6.5 Creedoor becoming a thing of the past. In fact...why didn't they just make a new projectile for 6.5CM? EDIT: I guess this is going to become the new thing for the AR-10? |
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