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Posted: 12/22/2015 8:47:27 PM EDT
[#1]
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Still pretty crappy for S&W to demand, and may make a terrible precedent, so if I send a gun off to have some custom work done will the gunsmith now have to deface the original markings lest he gets sued for "infringement". Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The letter says that they left the S&W and M&P on the slide after modification. Sounds like they (S&W) don't want their trademarks on any custom work that could possibly be viewed in tv or the interwebs of something happened. You can't alter the receiver markings so the frame markings have to stay. Just my take on it. Still pretty crappy for S&W to demand, and may make a terrible precedent, so if I send a gun off to have some custom work done will the gunsmith now have to deface the original markings lest he gets sued for "infringement". Jailhouse lawyers > General Discussion lawyers |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 8:48:01 PM EDT
[#2]
they should be so very thankful anyone wants to buy their semiautos at all.
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Posted: 12/22/2015 8:50:53 PM EDT
[#3]
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A gentleman way of handling this should have been a phone call but legally s&w was in the right. To be fair, we have no idea what sort of contact (if any) Apex et al had with S&W before undertaking this project or before these letters were sent.... |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 8:57:09 PM EDT
[#4]
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Annnnnnnnnnd I'm back in...... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Soon only the 1911 and AR will be end-user modifiable Your ideas intrigue me ... 
Annnnnnnnnnd I'm back in...... Thread just took an interesting turn, didn't it? |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 9:01:50 PM EDT
[#5]
Perhaps someone should remind S&W what happens to their sales when they piss off the gun owning community.
Not having read through all seven pages; the first issue I have is their assertion that modifications were "unlawful" and somehow one needs "authorization" to modify one of their products. Granted they may void the warranty, but even that only goes so far. Having previously owned a couple of these Pistols, I'd say they should welcome all the help they can get. 
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Posted: 12/22/2015 9:04:37 PM EDT
[#6]
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they got the ergonomics of the pistol pretty darn good. If they could have only went the extra mile and made the trigger nice as well there would be less of a desire for those aftermarket apex parts. I wouldn't own my M&P without those apex parts. I would have paid the extra cost to get a factory S&W that shot like it had apex parts in it. Same here. I have no ill will towards S&W. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 9:14:11 PM EDT
[#7]
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From what I've read so far, the above seems correct. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Ok, I changed the OP and I think I'm understanding this now. It looks like Smith and Wesson have good reason to issue this cease and desist for that particular gun, and are not asking them to stop modifying customers guns. Have I got all this right? From what I've read so far, the above seems correct. And warranted IMO |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 9:15:05 PM EDT
[#8]
It appears that S&W is now saying that they may have made a mistake in that they didn't know the gun APEX was showing was not for sale.
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Posted: 12/22/2015 9:16:38 PM EDT
[#9]
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Thats what I've heard from a lot of places. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Well fuck them then Guess I wont be buying an M&P then because from what I hear it is a must to upgrade the trigger Thats what I've heard from a lot of places. I sold my 5" CORE because I couldn't justify the expenditure of funds for something that shouldn't have been so broken from the factory. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 9:18:53 PM EDT
[#10]
Meh. Still the most inaccurate 9mm's I own, and I own a few M&P's.
Some great qualities about them with the Apez parts, but they place below my Glocks, CZ's, H&K's, Walthers, Berettas, and 1911s in putting projectiles into small groups. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 9:22:39 PM EDT
[#11]
Not the first time for this with S&W corporate and their lawyers taking legal action against a small business that does custom work on one of their M&P's. I have been asked to not say anything about it, but people who pay attention to my posts can figure out who was affected by it.
They are such a big company that one side of the house can be on the phone selling you 60 M&P's to turn into a custom gun while the other side of the house is literally drafting the letter thy send to crush you with their legal weight. If I didn't already have a reason to be pissed at Smith, I do now. We are a five M&P household, not seeing a reason to make it 6. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 9:24:41 PM EDT
[#12]
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It appears that S&W is now saying that they may have made a mistake in that they didn't know the gun APEX was showing was not for sale. Yeah, fuck them. They didn't make any mistake when they threatened a friend of mine and tried to get money out of him. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 9:26:10 PM EDT
[#13]
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Yeah, fuck them. They didn't make any mistake when they threatened a friend of mine. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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It appears that S&W is now saying that they may have made a mistake in that they didn't know the gun APEX was showing was not for sale. Yeah, fuck them. They didn't make any mistake when they threatened a friend of mine. Oh, I'm with you there. i do not own any S&W products, for a reason. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 9:27:19 PM EDT
[#14]
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If this is true, they are done for me. I had an M&P Pro with an Apex trigger in it. The Apex made the gun go from okay to outstanding. I ended up selling it recently to fund the purchase of another handgun with the thought that a few months from now i would buy a newer performance center model or CORE model to replace it as i'd been wanting to upgrade to that anyway. Not being able to put an Apex trigger into that new purchase means i won't be buying anymore M&P pistols, period. If this is the way they plan to treat the shooting community, to ruin a thriving aftermarket support system, then i want nothing to do with them. That's not what the letter says. Basically, they don't want Alex selling stuff with the trademarks on it. You'll still be able to get the trigger. The answer will likely be for apex to stop selling whole guns. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 9:30:40 PM EDT
[#15]
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Cliff notes please, it's blocked at work. We are intellectual property counsel for Smith and Wesson Corp. ("Smith & Wesson"). We are writing to you concerning the unlawful modification of Smith & Wesson's products and unauthorized use of Smith & Wesson's federally protected trademarks by Apex Tactical Specialties, Inc's("Apex"), Brownells Inc.("Brownells"), DP Custom Works LLC("DP"), Blowndeadline Custom ("Blowndeadline"), and SSVi LLC ("SSVi) (collectively, "you"). You can't take someone else's product, modify it but leave their marks on it, and resell it as their stuff. If apex want to sell whole guns their going to have to get a manufacturing FFL. Selling upgrade parts and installing them will always be fine. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 9:31:01 PM EDT
[#16]
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It appears that S&W is now saying that they may have made a mistake in that they didn't know the gun APEX was showing was not for sale. Highs and lows, this thread has errything |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 9:31:49 PM EDT
[#17]
Where can I get an S&W directly from Apex?
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Posted: 12/22/2015 9:37:36 PM EDT
[#18]
someone got a free S&W membership
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Posted: 12/22/2015 9:43:01 PM EDT
[#19]
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ever modify an AR?????? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I don't blame S&W one bit in this case. I wouldn't want some 3rd party extensively modifying and altering my product and then leaving my name on it. ever modify an AR?????? Several times. But I never customized the snot out of a Colt 6920 and claimed that it was a "Dream Colt" and tried to market it claiming that it was a Colt. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 9:44:12 PM EDT
[#20]
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Several times. But I never customized the snot out of a Colt 6920 and claimed that it was a "Dream Colt" and tried to market it claiming that it was a Colt. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I don't blame S&W one bit in this case. I wouldn't want some 3rd party extensively modifying and altering my product and then leaving my name on it. ever modify an AR?????? Several times. But I never customized the snot out of a Colt 6920 and claimed that it was a "Dream Colt" and tried to market it claiming that it was a Colt. Gun was not for sale. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 9:48:19 PM EDT
[#21]
The internet says it was, so S&W was justified...
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Posted: 12/22/2015 9:56:33 PM EDT
[#22]
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Thread just took an interesting turn, didn't it? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Soon only the 1911 and AR will be end-user modifiable Your ideas intrigue me ...
Annnnnnnnnnd I'm back in...... Thread just took an interesting turn, didn't it? Sitting on the couch perusing the thread....la la la, more herp and derp, interesting takes in a few comments, see Mark LaRue make a comment about 1911's being modifiable, more comments about "fuck S&W!!1!!111!”....brakes squealing.....WHAT DID ML JUST SAY? 
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Posted: 12/22/2015 9:58:20 PM EDT
[#23]
Saw that blown dead line character was posting on Instagram that it wasn't for sale. The link in the op sure makes it seem like it would be for sale. Maybe they are just trying to backtrack, which why would they unless they think s&w is onto something.
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Posted: 12/22/2015 10:34:32 PM EDT
[#24]
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Yawn I suspect S&W management is on holiday watching Christmas Story, while some dipshit low level lawyer put this out. LOL Or they recognize their obligation to provide a return for the firms shareholders and this comes from the top. I'm not familiar with any reputable firm allowing lawyers to operate autonomously and without the specific purpose of forwarding Corporate goals. I'm sure it does happen, though. If I had to guess, this is the first of the low hanging fruit. competition is good. Competition plus legal maneuvering is better. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 10:36:18 PM EDT
[#25]
When will Ted Yost get his letter from Browning?
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Posted: 12/22/2015 10:38:12 PM EDT
[#26]
Jason Burton better watch out for Colt too.
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Posted: 12/22/2015 10:40:07 PM EDT
[#27]
I am under the impression that they made 1 of these guns as a "thing to do".
Does anyone have a link showing they are planning on mass producing these and trying to sell them? |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 10:42:09 PM EDT
[#28]
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Sitting on the couch perusing the thread....la la la, more herp and derp, interesting takes in a few comments, see Mark LaRue make a comment about 1911's being modifiable, more comments about "fuck S&W!!1!!111!”....brakes squealing.....WHAT DID ML JUST SAY?
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Soon only the 1911 and AR will be end-user modifiable Your ideas intrigue me ...
Annnnnnnnnnd I'm back in...... Thread just took an interesting turn, didn't it? Sitting on the couch perusing the thread....la la la, more herp and derp, interesting takes in a few comments, see Mark LaRue make a comment about 1911's being modifiable, more comments about "fuck S&W!!1!!111!”....brakes squealing.....WHAT DID ML JUST SAY?
Larue OBP? |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 10:53:26 PM EDT
[#29]
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That is a perfect explanation, right there Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So if I follow S&W's line of thinking, I cannot buy a car and modify it to increase horsepower. Or buy a pickup and increase ground clearance. And technically, taking the shitty OEM tires off and being better rubber would be forbidden too. The soooo much retard in this lawsuit That is a perfect explanation, right there You can't use S&W's logos, trade names, and branding. I agree with them. The only way to protect intellectual property against theft or dilution is to go after the offender. I can sell an improved M&P pistol, but I can't sell JoeBobtheGunmaker's Improved M&P pistol. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 11:14:06 PM EDT
[#30]
How is this still being argued when the only people that think this gun was for sell was S&W and arf members?
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Posted: 12/22/2015 11:14:55 PM EDT
[#31]
I want to see them send a Cease and Desist to evey company that makes AR15 parts. Postage alone will bankrupt them.
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 11:17:00 PM EDT
[#32]
Just because the facts have become known there's no reason to end this thread.
More please. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 11:23:42 PM EDT
[#33]
Not to muddy the waters, but hasn't the federal government accepted payments from thousands of small Type 07's that have been "manufacturing" colt, smith, glochidia, browning, Remington, ruger, etc, for decades?
Do we all get that money back now? I figure I've paid excise on any number of flock, Colt and browning pistols, not to mention long guns. ETA - glochidia? Is that even a word? I fucking hate apple. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 11:28:27 PM EDT
[#34]
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Saw this on instagram just now. Anyone else heard about this? I'm not a lawyer, but it looks like they're going to ask Apex, Brownells, SSVI and blowndeadline to stop modifying pistols? Hopefully the link works. Instagram is retarded. Linky On an unrelated note, I love my Glock. 
ETA: I can't say if this document is actually a cease and desist or what it means, I am not a lawyer. Its just my interpretation. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v89/Hertz/gun%20pics/B1986BF4-97B5-4ACA-B150-011B32472357_zpspdbnolmq.png Taken from Page 2: https://scontent-dfw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/1934597_10204099808133979_4312216293917758907_n.jpg?oh=d6fb300a561bdee6dc4e2dfec65490de&oe=570D8406 CLICK THIS LINK It looks like Smith and Wesson is issuing this letter against the companies for these guns in the link above. They have an issue with the companies selling guns that could be mistaken as factory new and under warranty, and for using the SW trademarks. This is garbage. I can buy a car, upgrade it, and sell it as a "tuner car" without violating any "intellectual property." Companies are abusing IP rights. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 11:30:17 PM EDT
[#35]
Smith and Wesson stepped in it this time. Since the mid 1980s Smith and Wesson has done a few things to anger the firearms community that hurt sales and I believe they can add this one to the list.
I had no interest in a M&P until I saw the photo of the one enhanced by Brownells, Apex and SSVI. That is one sharp looking pistol worthy of the purchase of a stock M&P as a platform to build a fine pistol. Now that Smith and Wesson has taken issue with it, I lost interest. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 11:31:29 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The letter says that they left the S&W and M&P on the slide after modification. Sounds like they (S&W) don't want their trademarks on any custom work that could possibly be viewed in tv or the interwebs of something happened. You can't alter the receiver markings so the frame markings have to stay. Just my take on it. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 11:44:47 PM EDT
[#37]
lol this thread was the ultimate, TLDR gonna comment my hate anyway type thread.
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Posted: 12/22/2015 11:56:43 PM EDT
[#38]
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You can't use S&W's logos, trade names, and branding. I agree with them. The only way to protect intellectual property against theft or dilution is to go after the offender. I can sell an improved M&P pistol, but I can't sell JoeBobtheGunmaker's Improved M&P pistol. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So if I follow S&W's line of thinking, I cannot buy a car and modify it to increase horsepower. Or buy a pickup and increase ground clearance. And technically, taking the shitty OEM tires off and being better rubber would be forbidden too. The soooo much retard in this lawsuit That is a perfect explanation, right there You can't use S&W's logos, trade names, and branding. I agree with them. The only way to protect intellectual property against theft or dilution is to go after the offender. I can sell an improved M&P pistol, but I can't sell JoeBobtheGunmaker's Improved M&P pistol. I cannot use another's trademark to sell my OWN product or where there is a likelihood of confusion between the marks. The point of a trademark is to identify the maker of the goods. Apex can modify and sell the gun so long as they are clear that they are modifying S&W's gun, and not passing it off as their own. I can take a Chevy Camaro and call it the Magnum modified Chevy Camaro that is 100% awesomer than the Chevy without infringing on Chevrolet's trademark. I doubt that dilution is at play here (assuming S&W is a famous mark in the first place) unless Apex is making it appear that they and S&W are somehow together in the venture. |
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Posted: 12/23/2015 12:01:57 AM EDT
[#39]
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Saleen and Rousch both have to pull the Ford logos off the cars and sell them as a Saleen or Rousch. ASP and Devels were sold as ASPs and Devels...clearly based on S&W's guns but not marketed under the S&W logo. Same thing here. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I did. They're selling a heavily-modified S&W... but is it not still a Smith and Wesson gun they built their "dream gun" off of? I think this is an overreaction on S&W's part. How is this different from buying/promoting a Saleen Mustang, or Rousch Raptor? Saleen and Rousch both have to pull the Ford logos off the cars and sell them as a Saleen or Rousch. ASP and Devels were sold as ASPs and Devels...clearly based on S&W's guns but not marketed under the S&W logo. Same thing here. Oh yeah, forgot about them. There's precedent. Hell, Christiansen Arms mills "Remington 700" off the side of 700s and sells it as their own action. |
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Posted: 12/23/2015 12:04:49 AM EDT
[#40]
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Stop making our stuff better without our permission Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Cliff notes please, it's blocked at work. Stop making our stuff better without our permission Haha, this, wow. |
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Posted: 12/23/2015 12:05:21 AM EDT
[#41]
Go Glock, never look back. The Glock factory trigger is excellent.
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Posted: 12/23/2015 12:08:53 AM EDT
[#42]
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Jason Burton better watch out for Colt too. 
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Posted: 12/23/2015 12:19:38 AM EDT
[#43]
So if you Form 1 SBR an M&P15, Smith might sue you?
I don't think they've stepped in it, I think they've faceplanted. So, are the S&W factory sponsored pro shooters now going to remove all their Apex or other aftermarket parts? They advertise that they're shooting S&W when they're running Apex triggers. Quoted:
Go Glock, never look back. The Glock factory trigger is excellent. I wish I had a video of what the Glock VP explained to me at SHOT a couple years ago. I'll never buy a new Glock. |
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Posted: 12/23/2015 12:49:27 AM EDT
[#44]
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I think you should change the OP again, adding to the very top of your post. It still comes off as you accusing S&W of acting inappropriately. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Ok, I changed the OP and I think I'm understanding this now. It looks like Smith and Wesson have good reason to issue this cease and desist for that particular gun, and are not asking them to stop modifying customers guns. Have I got all this right? I will do that. I can see people clearly aren't bothering to read the whole thing.  Guess I shouldn't have left the thread unattended so long.
ETA: I changed the OP. I don't know how I could be any clearer now. |
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Posted: 12/23/2015 12:55:29 AM EDT
[#45]
whiny little shits arent they (s&w)
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Posted: 12/23/2015 12:57:37 AM EDT
[#46]
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Just because the facts have become known there's no reason to end this thread. More please. I fully intend to bump this thread in the morning so maybe people who missed the whole story will pull their head out of their ass and figure it out. |
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Posted: 12/23/2015 1:05:08 AM EDT
[#47]
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The Glock factory trigger is excellent. 
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Posted: 12/23/2015 1:23:47 AM EDT
[#48]
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I fully intend to bump this thread in the morning so maybe people who missed the whole story will pull their head out of their ass and figure it out. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Just because the facts have become known there's no reason to end this thread. More please. I fully intend to bump this thread in the morning so maybe people who missed the whole story will pull their head out of their ass and figure it out. You guys keep saying that, have you read the Apex page at your own link? Where does it say that this gun is for sale, will be for sale, or that there are any plans for Apex, Brownell's et al to sell customized M&Ps? They're customizing an M&P as a showcase of their services and aftermarket products to display at SHOT. No where on Brownell's "Dream Gun" website is a firearm for sale. Only the aftermarket parts you would need to purchase if you wanted to duplicate it with YOUR factory gun. S&W is stepping on their dick here. No other way about it. They are turning something that would have driven sales of their M&P into a net loss. Real smart. |
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Posted: 12/23/2015 1:23:58 AM EDT
[#49]
Demand #3 is pretty ballsy:
"3. Turn over to Smith & Wesson your inventory of the Infringing Product, or any Smith & Wesson product modified by you in the first instance that bears any mark owned by Smith & Wesson" S |
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Posted: 12/23/2015 1:27:39 AM EDT
[#50]
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You guys keep saying that, have you read the Apex page at your own link? Where does it say that this gun is for sale, will be for sale, or that there are any plans for Apex, Brownell's et al to sell customized M&Ps? They're customizing an M&P as a showcase of their services and aftermarket products to display at SHOT. No where on Brownell's "Dream Gun" website is a firearm for sale. Only the aftermarket parts you would need to purchase if you wanted to duplicate it with YOUR factory gun. S&W is stepping on their dick here. No other way about it. They are turning something that would have driven sales of their M&P into a net loss. Real smart. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Just because the facts have become known there's no reason to end this thread. More please. I fully intend to bump this thread in the morning so maybe people who missed the whole story will pull their head out of their ass and figure it out. You guys keep saying that, have you read the Apex page at your own link? Where does it say that this gun is for sale, will be for sale, or that there are any plans for Apex, Brownell's et al to sell customized M&Ps? They're customizing an M&P as a showcase of their services and aftermarket products to display at SHOT. No where on Brownell's "Dream Gun" website is a firearm for sale. Only the aftermarket parts you would need to purchase if you wanted to duplicate it with YOUR factory gun. S&W is stepping on their dick here. No other way about it. They are turning something that would have driven sales of their M&P into a net loss. Real smart. I realize that the gun was to be a display model at SHOT. I thought they were going to sell them? But maybe not. I'll edit my OP again to try to make it clear. I can't really blame smith for asking them to stop, I understand why they want to defend their trademark, and it looks like they are in the right legally. Its still going to reflect poorly on them in the future. As for SSVI and Blown Deadline making that misleading instagram post, that was shitty. |
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