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Posted: 12/22/2015 5:35:00 PM EDT
[#1]
Glad I traded mine. S&W is a bunch of nazis when it comes to replacement parts. IIRC their armory classes are more or less LEO/Military only.
I'll happily buy Glock, get an FN, or even a Canik. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 5:35:12 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
tag |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 5:35:41 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No, it has to be a related part that would cause the diff to fail. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Actually, the CAI might work for denying the claim on the diffs... I've dealt with this many times, and if they can link the increased power output of the modification as being more than the car was designed for, it can invalidate the powertrain warranty. The burden of proof is technically on the manufacturer, but I have dealt with this exact issue (CAI and a final drive failure) with a manufacturer who won in court. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 5:38:20 PM EDT
[#4]
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That letter is bullshit. It would be like demanding that an aftermarket wheel company not sell Toyota wheels, or an exhaust company not sell mufflers for Chevys. Ridiculous. Read the full thread. This isn't the equivalent of selling aftermarket wheels or exhausts. This is the equivalent of Carroll Shelby doing what he did to the AC Ace, and then reselling it as a AC Ace without the permission or blessing of AC. Instead, he properly worked with AC and created the AC Cobra. S&W doesn't know if this modified gun is reliable and safe. Lets pretend that a ton of people bought these $2,500 guns and it turned out to be a complete jam-o-matic. Customers could think that it was S&W's fault because it had the S&W and M&P name and logo. The bad reputation could harm S&W profits.* *With the companies involved, I'm giving it a 99.87% chance the modified gun is reliable and safe, but S&W still has to maintain the integrity of their trademarks unless they want to lose it. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 5:38:27 PM EDT
[#5]
Are we cutting our M&P's in half yet?
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Posted: 12/22/2015 5:40:58 PM EDT
[#6]
I don't blame S&W one bit in this case.
I wouldn't want some 3rd party extensively modifying and altering my product and then leaving my name on it. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 5:43:46 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't blame S&W one bit in this case. I wouldn't want some 3rd party extensively modifying and altering my product and then leaving my name on it. Hey, get out of here with your reason and logic! I've got my pitchfork all pointy sharp and I mean to react!!!!!! |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 5:48:58 PM EDT
[#8]
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You probably guess wrong. But not everything is posted on the internet. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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My guess is S&W didn't have a problem with them making trigger parts but when Apex decided to heavily modify a M&P and market it as a "Dream M&P" with all the S&W and other logos intact then the legal department decided to send a letter. You can debate the business aspect of this decision but from a pure trademark and consumer confusion perspective they have a case. You probably guess wrong. But not everything is posted on the internet. They have no trademark claim to get them to cease making sears and springs. Apex marketing their own version of an M&P is a different case. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 5:53:07 PM EDT
[#9]
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Well fuck them then No kidding. If I put better tires than OEM or add in a performance chip to my vehicle, have I not done the same thing? |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 5:54:55 PM EDT
[#10]
Things like this make me happy most gun owners don't get real involved in political issues. Most would make us look like idiots. This thread is a great example.
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Posted: 12/22/2015 5:55:30 PM EDT
[#11]
The letter says that they left the S&W and M&P on the slide after modification. Sounds like they (S&W) don't want their trademarks on any custom work that could possibly be viewed in tv or the interwebs of something happened. You can't alter the receiver markings so the frame markings have to stay. Just my take on it.
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Posted: 12/22/2015 5:58:11 PM EDT
[#12]
Well a big fuck you too to S&W.
I guess the S&W t-shirt I've been wearing will become a shop rag. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 5:59:50 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They have no trademark claim to get them to cease making sears and springs. Apex marketing their own version of an M&P is a different case. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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My guess is S&W didn't have a problem with them making trigger parts but when Apex decided to heavily modify a M&P and market it as a "Dream M&P" with all the S&W and other logos intact then the legal department decided to send a letter. You can debate the business aspect of this decision but from a pure trademark and consumer confusion perspective they have a case. You probably guess wrong. But not everything is posted on the internet. They have no trademark claim to get them to cease making sears and springs. Apex marketing their own version of an M&P is a different case. They don't have a claim. Focus on what is in bold. People shouldn't assume that this is a new conflict that just started with the C&D letter. And S&W has a way of making friends in the industry. I hope the aftermarket abandons them and Brownells stops stocking S&W parts. I'm sure that will be great for their product lines. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 6:01:11 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No kidding. If I put better tires than OEM or add in a performance chip to my vehicle, have I not done the same thing? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Well fuck them then No kidding. If I put better tires than OEM or add in a performance chip to my vehicle, have I not done the same thing? FFS. READ! The original OP showed a letter thay intentionally left out information making it seem that S&W got piss about aftermarket parts being produced for their products. After digging around, it has become apparent that the letter is about S&W issuing a C&D to companies who are extensively modifying a S&W M&P and calling it a S&W M&P. In the event something happens to the firearm, it would be led to beleive that any problems would be associated with S&W after a third party has torn it apart and replaced parts and cosmetic appearances. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 6:02:24 PM EDT
[#15]
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I don't blame S&W one bit in this case. I wouldn't want some 3rd party extensively modifying and altering my product and then leaving my name on it. ever modify an AR?????? |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 6:02:38 PM EDT
[#16]
To everybody complaining about guns being modified and sold, the C&D specifically relates to one (1, uno, singular) gun that is not for sale. It is a one-off special made up for Brownells to promote their aftermarket products for the M&P at Shot Show in January.
Read: http://www.apextactical.com/blog/index.php/apex-news/apex-teams-with-top-custom-builders-on-brownells-dream-gun/ Again, it's not for sale and you can't buy it. This is no different in my mind from car dealerships selling brand new brodozers with ten inch lifts, dubs, weird lo-pro MT's, giant light bars and plastic bolt-on fender flares. It's still a Ford F150 on your registration, just like a customized gun is still transferred to you as a Smith & Wesson M&P on your 4473 under Section D. A company insisting that you can't name their gun by the manufacturer and model once you change a single thing about it is completely asinine and beggars belief. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 6:03:35 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Things like this make me happy most gun owners don't get real involved in political issues. Most would make us look like idiots. This thread is a great example. TRUMP/SHLONG, 2016!!! |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 6:04:38 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
To everybody complaining about guns being modified and sold, the C&D specifically relates to one (1, uno, singular) gun that is not for sale. It is a one-off special made up for Brownells to promote their aftermarket products for the M&P at Shot Show in January. Read: http://www.apextactical.com/blog/index.php/apex-news/apex-teams-with-top-custom-builders-on-brownells-dream-gun/ Again, it's not for sale and you can't buy it. This is no different in my mind from car dealerships selling brand new brodozers with ten inch lifts, dubs, weird lo-pro MT's, giant light bars and plastic bolt-on fender flares. It's still a Ford F150 on your registration, just like a customized gun is still transferred to you as a Smith & Wesson M&P on your 4473 under Section D. A company insisting that you can't name their gun by the manufacturer and model once you change a single thing about it is completely asinine and beggars belief. Exactly. And this is about parts. Yes I know what the letter says. No this is not a new issue on S&Ws behalf. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 6:05:45 PM EDT
[#19]
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Thats what I've heard from a lot of places. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Well fuck them then Guess I wont be buying an M&P then because from what I hear it is a must to upgrade the trigger Thats what I've heard from a lot of places. Watch them at the gun shop all the time. New gun pop out crappy trigger and replace. I believe the shop is factoring the work in the gun sale to provide a little break to the customer. Most of the new guns have crappy triggers had to switch out my P 238 
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Posted: 12/22/2015 6:24:36 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ok, I changed the OP and I think I'm understanding this now. It looks like Smith and Wesson have good reason to issue this cease and desist for that particular gun, and are not asking them to stop modifying customers guns. Have I got all this right? |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 6:25:24 PM EDT
[#21]
They send a cease and desist letter and address it to "to whom it may concern"? Is that the proper way such things are done? I would think it would need to be addressed to the owner of the company getting the letter?
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Posted: 12/22/2015 6:28:48 PM EDT
[#22]
I love threads like this because six months from now there will still be a pile of chuckleheads mouth breathing "Fuck S&W!" without having any idea why.
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Posted: 12/22/2015 6:33:53 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ever modify an AR?????? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I don't blame S&W one bit in this case. I wouldn't want some 3rd party extensively modifying and altering my product and then leaving my name on it. ever modify an AR?????? If I bought a Colt, then slapped a S&W upper on it, and replaced the trigger, I wouldn't expect Colt to honor the factory warranty. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 6:45:41 PM EDT
[#24]
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i don't like this one bit.. no sir i don't I don't either. They should change the name to, "The Dream Gun Smith can't make, but we do" |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 6:52:09 PM EDT
[#25]
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TRUMP/SHLONG, 2016!!! Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Things like this make me happy most gun owners don't get real involved in political issues. Most would make us look like idiots. This thread is a great example. TRUMP/SHLONG, 2016!!! You'd campaign for that ticket... Just for the free Schlong campaign buttons. 
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Posted: 12/22/2015 6:53:55 PM EDT
[#26]
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I love threads like this because six months from now there will still be a pile of chuckleheads mouth breathing "Fuck S&W!" without having any idea why. BECAUSE FEELS! |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 7:03:02 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No kidding. If I put better tires than OEM or add in a performance chip to my vehicle, have I not done the same thing? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Well fuck them then No kidding. If I put better tires than OEM or add in a performance chip to my vehicle, have I not done the same thing? No it would be like your local shady tree mechanic doing the work and then selling it as new and possibly misrepresent that the warranty isn't affected. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 7:12:55 PM EDT
[#28]
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Arfcom sells complete AR15.com rifles. I don't see them suing people that modify them. The liability issue your're talking about is pretty weak. Look into Subsequent Modification case law, and I don't think you're going to see an argument where failing to enforce a trademark gets liability back to the manufacturer. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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http://www.recoilweb.com/sw-sends-cease-and-desist-letter-to-custom-gunsmiths-80507.html Here you go guys! Enjoy! Like I said, they were intentionally holding key pieces of information in an attempt to sway popular opinion against Smith. That is the liberal thing to do. Good job SSVI. Tempest in a tea pot; this legal action has nothing to do with end users modifying their guns or having paying others do it for them. Nor are they demanding that companies cease and desist from selling aftermarket parts. Smith & Wesson is perfectly justified in taking this legal action to protect their trademark as well as for liability issues, since S&W would incur liability in the event of any injuries if it could be proven that S&W knew about these "M&P Dream Guns" and took no action, thereby giving it's implied consent to the guns in fact, being authentic Smith and Wesson products. ARFcom protects it's trademark aggressively as well; it's a proper and entirely legitimate business practice. Arfcom sells complete AR15.com rifles. I don't see them suing people that modify them. The liability issue your're talking about is pretty weak. Look into Subsequent Modification case law, and I don't think you're going to see an argument where failing to enforce a trademark gets liability back to the manufacturer. Which is entirely at issue in this matter. If, by doing nothing after becoming aware, in considering of their trademark being used, S&W tacitly acknowledges that the gun is an "M&P" and they may well incur liability or need to defend against it. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 7:18:35 PM EDT
[#29]
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Smith wouldn't necessarily know their product is being sold specifically to be modified... But that's not what you were referring to before, is it? Kindly let's not move goalposts. This is a legal "CYA" maneuver that still comes across, well, badly in this day and age. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm not so sure about that after reading their complaint. They are not only demanding the "offending" companies stop marketing a "Dream Gun", they're also demanding they turn in their S&W product! Edit: Now, if I was Smith, I'd say "hey guys, you want to modify our guns? Okay, no problem - but WARRANTY VOIDED." That's it. And that companies modding guns in functional ways - lighter triggers, that kind of thing - assume liability if issues arise from those mods. That doesn't shield S&W against 3rd party liability suits in the event of injury, because in the event the company allowed the sales of the modified guns to go forward under their company trademark, they would be deemed to be complicit in the sale of a hazardous/defective product. Smith wouldn't necessarily know their product is being sold specifically to be modified... But that's not what you were referring to before, is it? Kindly let's not move goalposts. This is a legal "CYA" maneuver that still comes across, well, badly in this day and age. No goal posts have been moved at all. Smith and Wesson does in fact KNOW that the Dream Gun is being represented as an S&W M&P, and they need to protect their trademark as well as remove product liability attached to the modified gun. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 7:20:50 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sounds about right. 
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http://www.recoilweb.com/sw-sends-cease-and-desist-letter-to-custom-gunsmiths-80507.html Here you go guys! Enjoy! Like I said, they were intentionally holding key pieces of information in an attempt to sway popular opinion against Smith. That is the liberal thing to do. Good job SSVI. Tempest in a tea pot; this legal action has nothing to do with end users modifying their guns or having paying others do it for them. Nor are they demanding that companies cease and desist from selling aftermarket parts. Smith & Wesson is perfectly justified in taking this legal action to protect their trademark as well as for liability issues, since S&W would incur liability in the event of any injuries if it could be proven that S&W knew about these "M&P Dream Guns" and took no action, thereby giving it's implied consent to the guns in fact, being authentic Smith and Wesson products. ARFcom protects it's trademark aggressively as well; it's a proper and entirely legitimate business practice. Arfcom sells complete AR15.com rifles. I don't see them suing people that modify them. What if someone owned a small business and purchased the AR15.com rifle direct from Arfcom and decked it head to toe in Tapco, and resold it thru their business as the "ARFCOM Dream Rifle?" Sounds about right.
In that event, ARFcom would rightly defend it's trademark and would be cheered here in GD for doing so. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 7:26:54 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Until Gaston dies and his nurse wife tries to tell companies to stop making aftermarket parts to make the Glock actually perfect. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Another reason to buy a Glock Until Gaston dies and his nurse wife tries to tell companies to stop making aftermarket parts to make the Glock actually perfect. peak Ghost triggers!
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Posted: 12/22/2015 7:27:23 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No goal posts have been moved at all. Smith and Wesson does in fact KNOW that the Dream Gun is being represented as an S&W M&P, and they need to protect their trademark as well as remove product liability attached to the modified gun. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'm not so sure about that after reading their complaint. They are not only demanding the "offending" companies stop marketing a "Dream Gun", they're also demanding they turn in their S&W product! Edit: Now, if I was Smith, I'd say "hey guys, you want to modify our guns? Okay, no problem - but WARRANTY VOIDED." That's it. And that companies modding guns in functional ways - lighter triggers, that kind of thing - assume liability if issues arise from those mods. That doesn't shield S&W against 3rd party liability suits in the event of injury, because in the event the company allowed the sales of the modified guns to go forward under their company trademark, they would be deemed to be complicit in the sale of a hazardous/defective product. Smith wouldn't necessarily know their product is being sold specifically to be modified... But that's not what you were referring to before, is it? Kindly let's not move goalposts. This is a legal "CYA" maneuver that still comes across, well, badly in this day and age. No goal posts have been moved at all. Smith and Wesson does in fact KNOW that the Dream Gun is being represented as an S&W M&P, and they need to protect their trademark as well as remove product liability attached to the modified gun. That's just it... It's a base gun with modifications. So the companies are selling a gun and they want to let people know who made the original gun. Simple as that. What you and I think of it doesn't really matter, as it won't influence Smith at all. But they're going to look like jerks because of their actions. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 7:28:25 PM EDT
[#33]
Yawn I suspect S&W management is on holiday watching Christmas Story, while some dipshit low level lawyer put this out. LOL M&P trigger jobs are easy... http://www.burwellguns.com/misc/M&Ptriggerjob.pdf I like 'em 
Pretty sure APEX will continue to make parts for S&W 
. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 7:28:27 PM EDT
[#34]
Looks like they could change the wording a little and be in compliance. Something like - Brownell's dream pistol based on a S&W M&P pro 9mm - and warranting the pistol themselves.
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Posted: 12/22/2015 7:34:13 PM EDT
[#35]
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<a href="http://smg.photobucket.com/user/derek45/media/6a00d83451b80969e200e55067bb678833-640wi_zpsi0upjqfm.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/derek45/6a00d83451b80969e200e55067bb678833-640wi_zpsi0upjqfm.jpg</a> Yawn I suspect S&W management is on holiday watching Christmas Story, while some dipshit low level lawyer put this out. LOL M&P trigger jobs are easy... http://www.burwellguns.com/misc/M&Ptriggerjob.pdf I like 'em <a href="http://smg.photobucket.com/user/derek45/media/MP/MPs_zpsfscqb3sg.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/derek45/MP/MPs_zpsfscqb3sg.jpg</a> Pretty sure APEX will continue to make parts for S&W
. if you read, thats not the case here. It's the "Dream M&P" that is the problem. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 7:40:44 PM EDT
[#36]
I just sold my Glocks and simultaneously decided to keep my M&P's. Based on what I get from the letter, which is not the same as the knee jerk reaction I see from a lot of posters, I have no problem with what they're doing and I don't feel bad for keeping my M&P's. Subscribing for the butthurt though.
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Posted: 12/22/2015 7:50:03 PM EDT
[#37]
Everything these companies sell require the user to first purchase a S&W product, not seeing the issue.
Me thinks this is some kind of reaction the California negligent discharge issues that is currently hurting S&W marketing to law enforcement. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 7:53:01 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Another reason to buy a Glock Honestly, there is never any good reason to buy a glock
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Posted: 12/22/2015 8:05:47 PM EDT
[#39]
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Hey, get out of here with your reason and logic! I've got my pitchfork all pointy sharp and I mean to react!!!!!! Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I don't blame S&W one bit in this case. I wouldn't want some 3rd party extensively modifying and altering my product and then leaving my name on it. Hey, get out of here with your reason and logic! I've got my pitchfork all pointy sharp and I mean to react!!!!!! Pffft, you and your pitchfork sharpening. Amateur.
If you were really prepared you'd have some tar heated up already, the tub of feathers standing by, and the new tactical torches fueled and ready to be lit. 
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Posted: 12/22/2015 8:08:09 PM EDT
[#40]
Oy vey. Old Clinton & Wesson wants a piece of the action, eh?
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Posted: 12/22/2015 8:12:22 PM EDT
[#41]
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They send a cease and desist letter and address it to "to whom it may concern"? Is that the proper way such things are done? I would think it would need to be addressed to the owner of the company getting the letter? Yes it's a proper way to address the letter. The letter is sent to the company in toto and intended for the eyes of anyone within the company who is concerned with the matter. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 8:15:26 PM EDT
[#42]
BDL's Instagram states the gun was never intended to be sold just as a show piece for SHOT. Doesn't that void the argument about the intent to sell it? They are selling products and services based on the M&P.
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Posted: 12/22/2015 8:15:46 PM EDT
[#43]
Over a custom gun meant to showcase aftermarket parts and services available for their line of pistols? That's stupid.
Makes me want to mill my extra M&P slide into nothing but a pile of chips, except for the logo, and then tack weld the logo onto a High Point slide. Boom, custom gunwork on their pistol to improve trigger pull and accuracy. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 8:26:06 PM EDT
[#44]
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Over a custom gun meant to showcase aftermarket parts and services available for their line of pistols? That's stupid. Makes me want to mill my extra M&P slide into nothing but a pile of chips, except for the logo, and then tack weld the logo onto a High Point slide. Boom, custom gunwork on their pistol to improve trigger pull and accuracy. A gentleman way of handling this should have been a phone call but legally s&w was in the right. Even thou this is is a one off promotion gun the c&d puts one of the industries biggest lawsuit targets in a safer place. The dems said in the last debate that they want to sue the gun makers out of buisiness. As much as it sucks and is rediculus s&w is smart to be getting their ducks in a row for the next few years. |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 8:26:36 PM EDT
[#45]
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Soon only the 1911 and AR will be end-user modifiable  Your ideas intrigue me ... 
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Posted: 12/22/2015 8:31:29 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A gentleman way of handling this should have been a phone call but legally s&w was in the right. Even thou this is is a one off promotion gun the c&d puts one of the industries biggest lawsuit targets in a safer place. The dems said in the last debate that they want to sue the gun makers out of buisiness. As much as it sucks and is rediculus s&w is smart to be getting their ducks in a row for the next few years. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Over a custom gun meant to showcase aftermarket parts and services available for their line of pistols? That's stupid. Makes me want to mill my extra M&P slide into nothing but a pile of chips, except for the logo, and then tack weld the logo onto a High Point slide. Boom, custom gunwork on their pistol to improve trigger pull and accuracy. A gentleman way of handling this should have been a phone call but legally s&w was in the right. Even thou this is is a one off promotion gun the c&d puts one of the industries biggest lawsuit targets in a safer place. The dems said in the last debate that they want to sue the gun makers out of buisiness. As much as it sucks and is rediculus s&w is smart to be getting their ducks in a row for the next few years. It's petty and foolish to attack the people who make their handguns more popular over a display. Being legally correct doesn't mean "right." |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 8:40:51 PM EDT
[#47]
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The letter says that they left the S&W and M&P on the slide after modification. Sounds like they (S&W) don't want their trademarks on any custom work that could possibly be viewed in tv or the interwebs of something happened. You can't alter the receiver markings so the frame markings have to stay. Just my take on it. Still pretty crappy for S&W to demand, and may make a terrible precedent, so if I send a gun off to have some custom work done will the gunsmith now have to deface the original markings lest he gets sued for "infringement". |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 8:45:01 PM EDT
[#48]
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Your ideas intrigue me ...
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Soon only the 1911 and AR will be end-user modifiable Your ideas intrigue me ...
Annnnnnnnnnd I'm back in...... |
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Posted: 12/22/2015 8:46:51 PM EDT
[#49]
I like my 10 M&P's. The small block chevy of the pistol world plentiful, and easy to modify.
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Posted: 12/22/2015 8:46:54 PM EDT
[#50]
Meh, the Shield is the best CCW piece going
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