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Posted: 11/30/2021 8:31:52 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What's going to keep them from becoming another Spike's? Very similar, disruptive business models, 10 years apart. |
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Posted: 11/30/2021 8:32:02 PM EDT
[#2]
Their 13.7 with the a5 is an extremely flat shooting rifle. I wish they pinned their gas blocks.
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Posted: 11/30/2021 8:32:49 PM EDT
[#3]
 The fanboys will definitely kill their brand. They sell good shit with great specs and QC.
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Posted: 11/30/2021 8:39:32 PM EDT
[#4]
I've never seen a SOLGW in the wild, only heard a lot about them. Are they still doing HPT testing on individual bolts? I've never been much of a fan of that.
They seem to be as good or maybe slightly better than BCM, but they for sure aren't a KAC. |
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Posted: 11/30/2021 8:39:50 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: SOLGW should not even be spoken in the same sentence as Knights Armament. Period. One is the very top of the food chain, the other a dumb boutique parts assembler. And how many will shoot enough ammo to make the price worth it vs a $600-1k AR? Quite a few affordable ARs on the market are great rifles |
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Posted: 11/30/2021 8:45:55 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don’t have a complete SOLGW gun, but I have used 14 of their LPKs over the last two years and their lowers are Mega. Can’t beat ‘em. Isn’t Mega Zev Tech now? |
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Posted: 11/30/2021 8:58:09 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Isn’t Mega Zev Tech now? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I don’t have a complete SOLGW gun, but I have used 14 of their LPKs over the last two years and their lowers are Mega. Can’t beat ‘em. Isn’t Mega Zev Tech now? Yes, Zev OEM's for SOLGW, MEGA and a few others. They are basically still MEGA but Zev took over the name and upper management |
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Posted: 11/30/2021 9:05:51 PM EDT
[#8]
When all boils down, I think SOLGW's legacy will be that of a fanatical dedication to the best bolt carrier for sale that isnt some exotic alloy. Their BCGs sell out in hours, sometimes minutes. I was lucky to get my hands on 2 the past few weeks. I think they have Microbest manufacture all their BCG parts and perform the SP/HP/MP operations performed on each individual bolt. If my understanding is correct, they assemble each unit and full auto test fire each indvidual bcg.
I also think that it was a wise decision to have Mega make their receivers. |
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Posted: 11/30/2021 9:12:51 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You called? Internet Navy Ranger Scout SEAL Delta Od detachment reporting for service, SIR!!! don't try even try to verify. My records are classifieds. Only the president can unseal them. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: LOL no. The thread about the high rate of fire being bad for their barrels made the internet Navy Ranger Scout SEALS spidey senses tingle. You called? Internet Navy Ranger Scout SEAL Delta Od detachment reporting for service, SIR!!! don't try even try to verify. My records are classifieds. Only the president can unseal them. What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I’m the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You’re fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Corps and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You’re fucking dead, kiddo. |
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Posted: 11/30/2021 9:15:09 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: SOLGW should not even be spoken in the same sentence as Knights Armament. Period. One is the very top of the food chain, the other a dumb boutique parts assembler. LoL The Orange County Choppers of ARs. |
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Posted: 11/30/2021 9:22:33 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I’m the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You’re fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Corps and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You’re fucking dead, kiddo. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: LOL no. The thread about the high rate of fire being bad for their barrels made the internet Navy Ranger Scout SEALS spidey senses tingle. You called? Internet Navy Ranger Scout SEAL Delta Od detachment reporting for service, SIR!!! don't try even try to verify. My records are classifieds. Only the president can unseal them. What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I’m the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You’re fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Corps and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You’re fucking dead, kiddo.  |
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Posted: 11/30/2021 9:24:32 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've never heard of them. ARs were easy back in the day. Just ABC and the 'Chart'. I've never heard of them either. |
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Posted: 11/30/2021 9:24:58 PM EDT
[#13]
Name too long/10
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Posted: 11/30/2021 9:33:25 PM EDT
[#14]
lots of hate here. not surprising. most have no idea how hard it is to be a professional AR assembler. it requires somewhat specialized tools in $50 range, a vise, righty-tighty knowledge, hitting a very narrow torque value window between 30 and 80 ft lbs. a decent camera and Instagram account, lower IQ fan base. hideous/oversized logo etched into every got dang part. i mean, the list goes on and on.
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Posted: 11/30/2021 9:36:25 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: lots of hate here. not surprising. most have no idea how hard it is to be a professional AR assembler. it requires somewhat specialized tools in $50 range, a vise, righty-tighty knowledge, hitting a very narrow torque value window between 30 and 80 ft lbs. a decent camera and Instagram account, lower IQ fan base. hideous/oversized logo etched into every got dang part. i mean, the list goes on and on. Hahaha |
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Posted: 11/30/2021 9:38:01 PM EDT
[#16]
I've had their stuff for years, hung out with them, been to both shops, etc.
Bar none, you would be hard pressed to find another company that has as solid of people as SOLGW. They have done a fantastic job in the last 6 years and their reputation is well earned. For a website that loves to tear people down for slight political disagreements, please show me a company that is as "on our side" as them.  Show me a company that has a warranty that competes with theirs.  Our Warranty They are incredibly passionate about the AR15, as well as incredibly knowledgable. Their guns hold up to serious abuse. They source top tier parts, and QC all of them as they come in. They 100% stand behind their product. They build an incredibly solid rifle, that is inexpensive for what it is. There were a lot of manufacturers that started slacking on parts they sourced during the COVID debacle, in an attempt to keep up with demand. They did not. They are no compromise. They are my default gun I give out to people who don't own an AR these days. 
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Posted: 11/30/2021 9:38:42 PM EDT
[#17]
I had never heard of them before until I started seeing individuals selling off their stuff on a local gun sales site.
Primary Arms had two of their lowers in their Cyber Monday sales, looked nice but not sure they are worth 2 or 3 times other lower receivers. |
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Posted: 11/30/2021 9:38:50 PM EDT
[#18]
I have a couple of their lowers from a custom run we had done at another website.
The markings were a little light but otherwise well done. |
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Posted: 11/30/2021 9:38:59 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: lots of hate here. not surprising. most have no idea how hard it is to be a professional AR assembler. it requires somewhat specialized tools in $50 range, a vise, righty-tighty knowledge, hitting a very narrow torque value window between 30 and 80 ft lbs. a decent camera and Instagram account, lower IQ fan base. hideous/oversized logo etched into every got dang part. i mean, the list goes on and on. If it's so easy to do, why aren't you doing it, and why aren't you as successful as them? |
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Posted: 11/30/2021 9:40:12 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted: So I think we all know SOLGW has carved out their piece of the market and they definitely have a following. Recently I came across a poll on social media asking about the “best” AR15 rifle, and wouldn’t you know it, SOLGW is in the running to be a finalist, currently head to head with KAC. Granted, this is nothing more than a popularity poll (no operational testing what so ever), but bare with me here. One thing is obvious: people LOVE this company. I would also like to say that I own not a single SOLGW firearm or item. So then I got to thinking. For a company that manufactures nothing and outsources all of their parts, they have it together. They advertise high end, tight specs on every piece of the gun. This allows them to charge a premium without investing big into what it takes to make these parts in house. This allows them to warranty these parts basically forever and against anything. The owner hands out customer service left and right. Call him if you have an issue. He gives you a replacement gun if you use yours to defend yourself and it gets taken as evidence. List goes on. Obviously what they are doing is working. Their stuff stays out of stock everywhere and brings premium money when it is in stock. I think from a business perspective we could all learn a lot from SOLGW. I have one complete upper that the rail came crooked, and one completed rifle that has so much upper to lower slop it shakes like Michael J Fox. They're not that great. |
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Posted: 11/30/2021 9:40:15 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When all boils down, I think SOLGW's legacy will be that of a fanatical dedication to the best bolt carrier for sale that isnt some exotic alloy. Their BCGs sell out in hours, sometimes minutes. I was lucky to get my hands on 2 the past few weeks. I think they have Microbest manufacture all their BCG parts and perform the SP/HP/MP operations performed on each individual bolt. If my understanding is correct, they assemble each unit and full auto test fire each indvidual bcg. I also think that it was a wise decision to have Mega make their receivers. I have also heard this about their BCGs. What is stopping anyone else from calling and buying the same spec from the supplier and slapping their own logo on it? |
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Posted: 11/30/2021 10:05:24 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If it's so easy to do, why aren't you doing it, and why aren't you as successful as them? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: lots of hate here. not surprising. most have no idea how hard it is to be a professional AR assembler. it requires somewhat specialized tools in $50 range, a vise, righty-tighty knowledge, hitting a very narrow torque value window between 30 and 80 ft lbs. a decent camera and Instagram account, lower IQ fan base. hideous/oversized logo etched into every got dang part. i mean, the list goes on and on. If it's so easy to do, why aren't you doing it, and why aren't you as successful as them? uhhh. cause i can't afford the 10,000 watt laser they use to etch my huge obnoxious logo over the original manufactures logo? |
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Posted: 11/30/2021 10:08:40 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have also heard this about their BCGs. What is stopping anyone else from calling and buying the same spec from the supplier and slapping their own logo on it? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: When all boils down, I think SOLGW's legacy will be that of a fanatical dedication to the best bolt carrier for sale that isnt some exotic alloy. Their BCGs sell out in hours, sometimes minutes. I was lucky to get my hands on 2 the past few weeks. I think they have Microbest manufacture all their BCG parts and perform the SP/HP/MP operations performed on each individual bolt. If my understanding is correct, they assemble each unit and full auto test fire each indvidual bcg. I also think that it was a wise decision to have Mega make their receivers. I have also heard this about their BCGs. What is stopping anyone else from calling and buying the same spec from the supplier and slapping their own logo on it? Nothing. |
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Posted: 11/30/2021 10:25:16 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've never heard of them either. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I've never heard of them. ARs were easy back in the day. Just ABC and the 'Chart'. I've never heard of them either. This. |
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Posted: 11/30/2021 10:37:45 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Im going to name my company guy who's been drinking bourbon for 3 hours riflewerkz Be careful wit dat. Somebody might have a thing with that and tell you that you be 'fringing. Maybe you should let him consume for at least 5 hours. |
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Posted: 11/30/2021 10:39:31 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They sure went from unknown to marketing success rapidly, take note. But their stuff is way overpriced. It's just standard dime a dozen AR stuff. They may assemble some nice parts but who couldn't for 2700 bucks. US Gubbamint! Yo tax dollahs, YO! |
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Posted: 11/30/2021 10:43:12 PM EDT
[#27]
step one: have others develop and make parts
step two: add own logo to said part step three: lol look, now i make the fastest production car. give me praise  Attached File |
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Posted: 11/30/2021 10:49:53 PM EDT
[#28]
One quickie: it seems there is a lot of hate on SOLGW and how they arent in the same league as LMT, KAC, DD etc.
Well, Ive seen a used LMT lower on here that had some horrible forging flash still on the back of the lower. For a company that hangs its hat on exceptional machining, they definitely missed that one. Theres no manufacturer thats infallible, even if they machine their parts and assemble the rifle. |
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Posted: 11/30/2021 11:38:47 PM EDT
[#29]
They have a following sure. But wait initial there is a problem with on of their rifles no functioning correctly and SOLGW says "oh man, yeah that's not right" and says the customer is on their own to fix it.
FSOLGW |
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Posted: 11/30/2021 11:44:41 PM EDT
[#30]
I have a couple SOLGW rifles along with a bunch of Geisseles, BCMs, Colts, Larues, Sionics, a LMT, and others.
What I like about Sons is that they are very open with their specs, and they QC and reject parts from the manufactures that don't meet them. For instance I know that a Sons barrel (manufactured by Ballistic Advantage) will have an appropriately sized gas port and a gas block dimple. Buying a barrel directly from Ballistic Advantage doesn't guarantee those feature which are extremely important to me and worth the modest premium. Sons is also one of the few AR manufacturers left that doesn't over-gas their guns for optimum performance with under-powered steel-case imported ammo. My two Sons rifles and the LMT are the only rifles I have that perfectly eject at 4:00. This is consistent across the dozen or so Sons rifles that I've fired. Sons hands down has the best receiver finishes on the market. While made in the same factory, the anodizing on my Mega receivers is nowhere near as good as all of the Sons receivers I've seen. They are priced the same as what I consider their contemporaries. However, calling them a parts assembler is definitely accurate compared the manufacturers like Colt, LMT, Geissele, FN, etc. That never seemed to bother anyone about BCM though. |
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Posted: 11/30/2021 11:47:25 PM EDT
[#31]
SOLGW is good shit. I like what they stand for. I like their passion for the AR15 and our rights.
Their customer service model fucking sucks. Idk why Mike let’s that shit fly. They basically ignore you until you find Mike’s personal number. He takes care of shit when you call him, but having to contact the owner to get anything done isn’t good. I think Mike has good intentions, but something (someone) isn’t working internally in that aspect. Not like I’m the only one with this experience. It is/was a common complaint. Haven’t bought anything from them in a while, so Maybe it’s changed recently If you are going to charge me premium prices for a rifle, I better not be getting a barrel known for being a budget friendly option. I could look past those things if they would offer a barrel profile other than government. All that being said, they are quality and actually care about our community. We could use more like them. |
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Posted: 11/30/2021 11:50:36 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have one complete upper that the rail came crooked, and one completed rifle that has so much upper to lower slop it shakes like Michael J Fox. They're not that great. I bought a few Geissele that rattled like a fucking china shop in an earthquake. Sold off my Geissele receivers and never looked back. |
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Posted: 11/30/2021 11:54:52 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have a couple SOLGW rifles along with a bunch of Geisseles, BCMs, Colts, Larues, Sionics, a LMT, and others. What I like about Sons is that they are very open with their specs, and they QC and reject parts from the manufactures that don't meet them. For instance I know that a Sons barrel (manufactured by Ballistic Advantage) will have an appropriately sized gas port and a gas block dimple. Buying a barrel directly from Ballistic Advantage doesn't guarantee those feature which are extremely important to me and worth the modest premium. Sons is also one of the few AR manufacturers left that doesn't over-gas their guns for optimum performance with under-powered steel-case imported ammo. My two Sons rifles and the LMT are the only rifles I have that perfectly eject at 4:00. This is consistent across the dozen or so Sons rifles that I've fired. Sons hands down has the best receiver finishes on the market. While made in the same factory, the anodizing on my Mega receivers is nowhere near as good as all of the Sons receivers I've seen. They are priced the same as what I consider their contemporaries. However, calling them a parts assembler is definitely accurate compared the manufacturers like Colt, LMT, Geissele, FN, etc. That never seemed to bother anyone about BCM though. You say they’re very open about their specs… have you ever seen a drawing for one of their parts? Do they have drawings for their parts? How do they measure them to verify those specs? |
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Posted: 12/1/2021 12:00:18 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You say they're very open about their specs have you ever seen a drawing for one of their parts? Do they have drawings for their parts? How do they measure them to verify those specs? The examples that they gave me were pin gauging every gas port and weighing every buffer. They send back anything that doesn't gauge out correctly. |
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Posted: 12/1/2021 12:03:07 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The examples that they gave me were pin gauging every gas port and weighing every buffer. They send back anything that doesn't gauge out correctly. Wow. |
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Posted: 12/1/2021 12:04:22 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The examples that they gave me were pin gauging every gas port and weighing every buffer. They send back anything that doesn't gauge out correctly. Horse shit. My 12.5" upper from them is so overgassed there's zero fucking way what they claim is true. Plenty of reviews of their 12.5s have the same problem. |
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Posted: 12/1/2021 12:05:36 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sons of liberty gun assemblers  Just like Hodge right? 
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Posted: 12/1/2021 12:08:21 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just like Hodge right? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Sons of liberty gun assemblers Just like Hodge right? Suns doesn’t use inferior 9310 bolt material like Hodge. |
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Posted: 12/1/2021 12:09:08 AM EDT
[#39]
Their lowers are properly milled in the right places is what I'd read. That's a good thing.
They do love some Instagram. |
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Posted: 12/1/2021 12:10:02 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Whenever I hear about how awesome a place is about customer service with their product too often I consider many people are having problems with their products. I had an out of spec bolt release from their blaster pack |
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Posted: 12/1/2021 12:10:39 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Horse shit. My 12.5" upper from them is so overgassed there's zero fucking way what they claim is true. Plenty of reviews of their 12.5s have the same problem. My and my buddy's 12.5" Sons uppers both eject at 4:00, so I don't know. Mike did say the 12.5" is their "gassiest" barrel, but the only two 12.5s I've shot were perfect. They were on Sons lowers with A5 buffer systems, so that may have been a factor. I have never watched them pin gauge a barrel, so I won't argue with anyone about whether they were lying or not. Every Sons rifle I've seen has been perfectly gassed (while nearly every other rifle has been over gassed) which has led me to believe that it was true. |
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Posted: 12/1/2021 12:11:02 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I had an out of spec bolt release from their blaster pack Their kitchen scale said it weighed what it was supposed to. 
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Posted: 12/1/2021 12:14:53 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Their kitchen scale said it weighed what it was supposed to. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I had an out of spec bolt release from their blaster pack Their kitchen scale said it weighed what it was supposed to. I bet the drawing was even correct too.
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Posted: 12/1/2021 12:17:32 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Their kitchen scale said it weighed what it was supposed to. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I had an out of spec bolt release from their blaster pack Their kitchen scale said it weighed what it was supposed to. Yikes |
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Posted: 12/1/2021 12:39:52 AM EDT
[#45]
I snagged a sol sage edition 12.5. Gassed right suppressed and unsuppressed Vltor A5 buffer systems . The handguard uses wedge lock which makes for a secure fit. Fit and finish is nice. Overall its a nice rifle. Only changes i would make is get rid of the gov profile barrel and b5 trigger guard. I own kac ..bcm..scar to compare .
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Posted: 12/1/2021 12:50:58 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote History |
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Posted: 12/1/2021 1:07:51 AM EDT
[#47]
For example, their sourced BCG selling for premium money:
https://www.koshersurplus.com/product/solgw-sons-of-liberty-gunworks-5-56-bcg/ |
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Posted: 12/1/2021 3:23:07 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have a couple SOLGW rifles along with a bunch of Geisseles, BCMs, Colts, Larues, Sionics, a LMT, and others. What I like about Sons is that they are very open with their specs, and they QC and reject parts from the manufactures that don't meet them. For instance I know that a Sons barrel (manufactured by Ballistic Advantage) will have an appropriately sized gas port and a gas block dimple. Buying a barrel directly from Ballistic Advantage doesn't guarantee those feature which are extremely important to me and worth the modest premium. Sons is also one of the few AR manufacturers left that doesn't over-gas their guns for optimum performance with under-powered steel-case imported ammo. My two Sons rifles and the LMT are the only rifles I have that perfectly eject at 4:00. This is consistent across the dozen or so Sons rifles that I've fired. Sons hands down has the best receiver finishes on the market. While made in the same factory, the anodizing on my Mega receivers is nowhere near as good as all of the Sons receivers I've seen. They are priced the same as what I consider their contemporaries. However, calling them a parts assembler is definitely accurate compared the manufacturers like Colt, LMT, Geissele, FN, etc. That never seemed to bother anyone about BCM though. Solo doesn’t make, or finish anything. Words have meanings. |
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Posted: 12/1/2021 9:33:17 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Solo doesn’t make, or finish anything. Words have meanings. They sure do. Perhaps you should learn some of them. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/make https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/build SOLGW MAKES and BUILDS rifles and pistols. How do you feel about that? |
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Posted: 12/1/2021 9:35:00 AM EDT
[#50]
The Noveske business model, then?
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