User Panel
There's got to be some reason to this - certainly wasn't concocted at random.
|
|
I wouldn't think they would post something like that unless there's meat behind the story.
|
|
I guess that explains why some did not care to see 5.45 AK rifles made into pistols. Build it and the ATF will come.
|
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
I smell BS. Let's hope so. Im pretty sure they did this before with 7.62x39 and cut off the import of steel core chicom stuff back in the 90s |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I smell BS. Let's hope so. Im pretty sure they did this before with 7.62x39 and cut off the import of steel core chicom stuff back in the 90s Yes, but this is domestic ammo. |
|
That means a Firearms purchaser Identification card will now be required to purchase .223 ammo in NJ.... we cannot purchase handgun ammunition with a firearm permit here.
|
|
I just checked the ATF website under proposed, advanced proposed and general rulings and could not find anything on the site.
Hmmmmm you think this is the "under the radar" action they have been talking about? The thought that they can regulate us via ammunition is probably in the playbook somewhere. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Will this affect M855 at all? Probably means the end of xm855. Well they want everyone to send those two types of bullets in, so does that mean they are going to start going door to door to get all the M855 that has been sold? I am also going to guess that they are going to want to take it all without paying ANYONE for the bullets and ammo they are going to STEAL from everyone. Quoted:
That means a Firearms purchaser Identification card will now be required to purchase .223 ammo in NJ.... we cannot purchase handgun ammunition with a firearm permit here. Follow me over the border my friend, there is a free state next to us that would be willing to sell us ammo. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I smell BS. Let's hope so. Im pretty sure they did this before with 7.62x39 and cut off the import of steel core chicom stuff back in the 90s Yes, but this is domestic ammo. I dont know their motivation other than haivng more regs, Im just saying its been done before. |
|
Ammo bans have always been mentioned in democrat/liberal strategy.
|
|
Quoted:
so which bullets do i need to run out an panic buy? +1 |
|
Quoted:
Ammo bans have always been mentioned in democrat/liberal strategy. also NSA, my brother has a friend that goes to church with him, he works for the NSA, he claims to have been in meetings about this subject. i was told this story roughly 10 years ago. who knows if it's true, but i don't doubt it |
|
we getting close to a revolution yet? because this shit is going way to far
|
|
I just shit my pants, panicked and ordered some more 5.56. I'm so easily pushed into panic mode.
|
|
Quoted:
I just shit my pants, panicked and ordered some more 5.56. I'm so easily pushed into panic mode. completely justified IMO with the current crop of shitheads running the show. i want to buy 5k of the pmc xtac, but funds dont permit and i dont have a credit card |
|
Sorry for all of you 18-20yr olds with ARs, better luck next time.
|
|
Quoted:
I guess that explains why some did not care to see 5.45 AK rifles made into pistols. Build it and the ATF will come. Time to buy cheap surplus 5.45........ |
|
Got a guy over at ar15armory that says he found out about it when he got raided..... No details other than that
|
|
Since none of those are generally Fudd calibers, this could be a backdoor way of tightening up on things...
No 30/30 (Thompson Contender) hmmm... |
|
Quoted:
Got a guy over at ar15armory that says he found out about it when he got raided..... No details other than that |
|
Isn't Elite Ammo the company that all 5.7x28 fanbois hang their hats on?
Since no one has been able to get independent verification of this, I am going to assume that this is nothing more than a marketing ploy to make their uber-deathray 5.7x28 ammo all the more "special". Since you can't buy "good" ammo for those calibers anymore, you might as well buy their physics-defying 5.7 stuff, see? That's just a WAG on my part for now... |
|
Quoted:
Has there been ANY independent verification of this? Everything I see is from Jay Wolf- Elite Ammuntion. He's claiming he got a visit from a SWAT team? http://www.ar15armory.com/forums/BATF-Classifies-223-65-t106361.html&pid=1496491#entry1496491 No the ATF swat team did not give my anything other then a search warrant.
This post has been edited by panzermk2: Today, 2:40 PM |
|
Quoted:
Got a guy over at ar15armory that says he found out about it when he got raided..... No details other than that wait a minute, so now we have vendors getting raided and having their property STOLEN????? shits gone far enough. things need to be put into motion that can't be undone. |
|
All copper is ok.
However Brass is NOT ok, and it sounds like the EA projectile is advertised as a copper/tin mix (aka brass) - by calling it a 'copper alloy' they tried to get around the law. Brass: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brass Brass is an alloy of copper and zinc; the proportions of zinc and copper can be varied to create a range of brasses with varying properties
Info on the Trident Bullet: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=95860 Turned homogenous Copper Zinc alloy, not beryllium copper bullets. Extremely accurate with friction reducing cuts allowing for higher velocity and lower pressure. These bullets provide great penetration of a solid, but with the cuts fragmentize after entering the target.
aka 'brass'. |
|
Quoted:
Isn't Elite Ammo the company that all 5.7x28 fanbois hang their hats on? Since no one has been able to get independent verification of this, I am going to assume that this is nothing more than a marketing ploy to make their uber-deathray 5.7x28 ammo all the more "special". Since you can't buy "good" ammo for those calibers anymore, you might as well buy their physics-defying 5.7 stuff, see? That's just a WAG on my part for now... These the ones? http://www.icarry.org/ftopicp-19853.html |
|
Quoted:
All copper is ok. However Brass is NOT ok, and it sounds like the EA projectile is advertised as a copper/tin mix (aka brass) - by calling it a 'copper alloy' they tried to get around the law. But is the ammo I use in my rifles now classified as pistol ammo? WTF? |
|
Quoted:
There's got to be some reason to this - certainly wasn't concocted at random. They are just kicking the dog for the facts that were exposed before Congress. |
|
M855 was specifically excluded from the definition of armor piercing ammunition. So don't worry about that.
There is NOTHING new here. This manufacturer simply asked for clarification from ATF regarding bullets. Brass or other bullets made of a solid alloy are not allowed in cartridges that can be fired from pistols. Nothing new. Pure copper bullets are allowed, and have been. Nothing new. |
|
This isn't really new, the anti-gunners passed a bill banning "cop-killing" bullets in the '80's or '90's, the ORIGINAL proposal was to ban any handgun ammunition capable of penetrating a protective vest (actually, before that, they wanted to ban ANY ammunition that could penetrate a vest), that got changed to a bullet composition rule regarding handgun ammunition. There was a big stink in the '90's when Olympic Arms (I think that's who it was) came out with a "handgun" in 7.62x39, which immediately allowed the BATF to shut down the sales of all of the cheap steel-core 7.62x39 rifle ammunition that was being imported at the time.
The entire thing is unConstitutional, and hopefully under _Heller_ we can finally get it repealed. |
|
While I also believe the new regulation to be bullshit, it isn't as doom and gloom as some here are already prepared to believe.
So lets just say that .223 and all other common AR15 calibers are labeled as pistol ammunition. First, lets examine what the law actually says: (i) a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or (ii) a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile. ATF has specifically exempted the following rounds: 5.56 SS109 and M855 NATO rounds, with a steel penetrator tip. .30-06 M2 AP ammo. So, the definition of armor piercing ammunition, per federal law, would not pertain very many projectiles on the market. As stated above, M855 doesn't qualify as AP since the projectile is not 'constructed entirely' out of any regulated material. There is plenty of lead inside of m855. So what about the Trident projectile in question? The problem is that the Trident round is made entirely out of a copper zinc alloy, otherwise known as brass. Brass is a material that be considered 'armor piercing' under federal law, and that right there is the problem for the Trident round. So what about other solid bullets? Standard copper doesn't qualify, so no need to worry about the TSX and its variants. However, certain solid bullets made from 'gilding metal' (which could also technically be considered brass) may now qualify as armor piercing. For instance, the Hornady GSX bullets may now be considered armor piercing in select calibers. Ditto for the E-tip. Also, Barnes Banded Solids (which made from gilding metal rather than copper and therefore might technically be considered 'brass') may also be affected. So while a handful of perfectly good bullets may meet their demise because of this crazy administrative ruling, the sky isn't falling just yet. Our beloved Barnes TSX and TAC-XP rounds are both safe. As are M855, MK318 and the overwhelming majority of other projectiles. Also, who knows if the ATF will bother to enforce this ruling unilaterally or not. Frankly speaking, they're an agency where selective enforcement seems to be pretty common place. |
|
Quoted:
Isn't Elite Ammo the company that all 5.7x28 fanbois hang their hats on? Since no one has been able to get independent verification of this, I am going to assume that this is nothing more than a marketing ploy to make their uber-deathray 5.7x28 ammo all the more "special". Since you can't buy "good" ammo for those calibers anymore, you might as well buy their physics-defying 5.7 stuff, see? That's just a WAG on my part for now... Seems entirely possible. |
|
No independent verification makes me uneasy...
either its going to be published, its a proposed ruling, a misinterpretation of some ruling, someone overheard someone else talking or some agent in the know let the cat out of the bag to soon The question is if it is happening there must be factual information to back up claims that ATF raided someone and did not have this regulation published anywhere. Or factual information that its a proposed ruling inconcert with some sick anti 2nd group influencing the ATF I cant write reps, call reps and beat the NRA, GOA's doors down and demand they do anything without facts or evidence in front of me. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Will this affect M855 at all? this No. ATF has specifically exempted the following rounds: 5.56 SS109 and M855 NATO rounds, with a steel penetrator tip. .30-06 M2 AP ammo. source: http://www.recguns.com/Sources/IIG1.html Simple reason: M855 doesn't meet the construction criteria for armor piercing ammunition. |
|
Quoted:
Ammo bans have always been mentioned in democrat/liberal strategy. Well it is a good thing we have "Heller", because Scalia pretty much slammed the door on any ammo bans in the majority opinion. Besides with the advent of the internet and websites like ARFCOM, a lawsuit against the BATF for a defacto ban using ammo, with "gun owners" as plaintiffs is a whole lot easier to pull off than it would have been a decade or so ago. I'm not worried too much. All we need is some money, a lawyer and a sympathetic Federal Judge. |
|
Seriously, I call BS,
If any of you team members remember the thread where elite has a customer blacklist that they posted publicly on their website, mostly full of people trying to get a refund, when elite couldnt deliver their ammo based on their Pay now, deliver when it might be available business model.. IF any of you remember what happened between him and Arfcom member Black-x Wow, some new info. I sent this:
Lisa, Thanks for being anti-American and working hard to fight the Second Amendment. There are others out there like you and I will be sure to keep you on my blacklist of ammo manufacturers not buy from. Later comrade. -X Here's the responses I've received: Hey tough guy next time you feel like pushing some one around try Me instead of a girl. FYI one of our longtime friends and customers works for the NSA. I just dropped him a note. 100 rounds of our LEO only ammo in trade for all the info He can dig up on you. So keep on harassing my wife and your world is going to get very interesting for you. Jay Wolf Pr. Elite Ammunition 815.814.0847 begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 815.814.0847 end_of_the_skype_highlighting begin_of_the_skype_highlighting 815.814.0847 end_of_the_skype_highlighting www.eliteammunition.com www.fivesevenforum.com ––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––- I don't know who the hell you are so why don't you be man enough to tell me your name instead of sending an email from a new address and signing it X. And I don't really care if you have me on your blacklist because I have many customers who are happy with our products & services and don't do stupid things to get banned from buying from the ONLY aftermarket company making 5.7x28mm ammunition. So when you are ready to show your true identity than contact me. Our ban list is short so it could only be one of 5 people. –––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––– Because you decided you could not understand the nationwide industry problem with getting supplies and were really rude to me that is why you were banned from our company. As I stated to you at the other email address earlier today. Please stop playing games. I have real customers who actually need to be tended too. Lisa Wolf Elite Ammunition Customer Service Manager www.eliteammunition.com www.57forum.com (panzermk2wife) If you have team, heres the archieved thread. Elite ammunition blacklist |
|
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.