Why didn't SOMEONE fire one out of 3000 superionplasmaquantumturbo(non)lasers at the asteroid and blow it the fuck up?  SURELY one of the 87 auxiliary bridge crews would've noticed it, or one of the 62,000 gunners, or one of the 12,000,000,000 sensor operators...

2 different sources.

Stop trying to make ST out to be more then it is. ST is great for the Utopian science-god show that it was. SW is great because it shows that no matter how big your adversary it can still be beaten by those with the will to fight evil. ST is orders of magnitude on a smaller scale then SW, that alone turns the odds. The rest is all speculations and masturbation.

But for fun, compare the relatively LARGE asteroids being shot and vaporized by the ISD vs the significantly smaller asteroids needing photon torpedoes:
3:40

You are very much warping the official canon...



In this case, since all the fanwank garbage in the EU is at a lower level than the movies; it is superseded by them. None of that "herp derp base delta zero, which would have completely negated the entire first half of Empire plot wise" excists because the movies clearly demonstrate it doesnt. These bajillion MJ shields dont exist, because if they did they could fly through a damn planet. Some piss-ant asteroid wouldn't do shit to them.

People tend to forget that asteroids are moving through space at thousands of miles per hour. An iron based asteroid the size of the enterprise traveling at 1800 mph is going to generate more kenetic energy then a every single nuclear missile on earth, and one crashing into the bridge of a ISD makes me astounded that the ship even survived. Have you guys never heard of mass drivers? But I guess a few dinos just got squished by a falling rock and nothing else happened

Did you not read your own post? EU is still canon, just because it doesn't supercede Lucas does not make it any less canon and within star wars continuity. EU is not fanfiction, it is licensed directly through Lucas. IF you are going to throw a fit about anything anyone else made about the star wars universe besides Lucas is not canon then Everything after the first few season of TNG is also not canon (sorry no borg or quantum torpedos).

Repost from earlier. Assuming a pure iron composition asteroid, a 400m radius (much larger than the enterprise BTW), and velocity of 500 m/s (MUCH faster than onscreen). This is clearly larger than what is shown and much faster. This gives a 2.68x10^8 m volume, combined with iron density at 7874 kg/m^2 and the speed from before results in a collision of roughly 2.6x10^17 joules.

This means the ISD, if its shields were indeed rated at 3.8x10^26, could have sustained an impact just like that every single second for 45.6 YEARS, before their shields failed.

Once again I say. Those ST/SW fansites are made by highschool dropouts and fake "engineers" that have never held a real job.

Now as to the part in bold... Stop, please just stop. We have already detonated in simple low yield weapons tests two orders of magnitude more than that. More than all of our nuclear stockpiles?

You missed the key words there ol' fellow. Let me bold the important part. Which, btw; is exactly what I said.

Much of EU is clearly contradictory to G (movies).

FYI - Rodenbarry being dead or alive has nothing to do with aired episodes, which according to Wars canon would be at G level. But once again you're bringing up trek like I'm a trekkie. Dude, I dont give a shit about trek "science." I dont know why you keep bringing it up as an argument point with me? Hell fine, lets go with Borg aren't canon. I dont care. WTF does that have to do with the shit fake ass numbers that are bandied about for Wars, that are clearly contradictory to what is scene in the movies?

Sure some of it obviously will contradict, but nothing that I know of in this discussion that has been pulled from the EU contradicts the movies. Therefore it is cannon. IF you can show something we have discussed violates cannon then please show us.

Yeah, yeah, we get it, their ships are big.  But when you can harness the destructive power of a matter/anti-matter explosion or a quantum string explosion in a warhead the size of a man, why do you need big ships?    











 

Very simple. ANY energy number derived for ISD weapons or shield outputs are refuted by the whole premise of the asteroid search scene. Officers telling vador they are taking too much damage, on screen bridge destruction, etc etc.

--->

I rarely talk numbers as I have said before the variation in one episode of star trek to another let alone another season make any mathematical foundation impossible. Writers are not out there concerning themselves with the exact shield strength of the enterprise from this episode or that. Everything is plot based. Need the voyager to survive traveling through borg space....have them ally with the borg, something that was previously considered impossible, then have voyager develop torpedoes that can destroy a cube in one shot which used to take nearly the entirety of star fleet to accomplish.....just reverse the polarity.

My arguments have been purely canonical. I have been arguing this purely stated figures, we know the federation is vastly outnumber to a degree that this debate is silly. Yet people defending the trekkie side keep saying quantum torpedo this, and transporter that. It doesn't matter if the federation can one shot kill any imperial vessel, strategically the empire does not even have to directly fight one star fleet capital ship to win.

Your right, all you really need is a ship the size of a star fighter and a nice Star that is waiting to be exploded.

Star trek is garbage math to try and calculate. It's way to inconsistent and plot varying. I'm not about to even attempt making sense of their "inverse tachyon beam" saves the day junk. You are very right, numbers wise Wars will crush the federation. Heck, aside from my B5 post; that was the first thing I said on this topic. Even if the feds could one-shot ISDs in a ship-ship, bringing the combined forces of a galaxy vs the forces of a small quadrant is very lopsided.

congratulations you found an inconsistency in star wars...do you want a nobel prize? Star fleet can harness the power of the stars, yet hundreds of years of consoles exploding plasma all over the faces of highly trained officers and they have yet to develop circuit breakers, or hey...seatbelts! They can beam people down to the surface of a planet but never have visual communication with an away team? Look at the lengths they went to explain away the looks of klingons.

There are dozens and dozens of them between G and EU canon.


Yes.  Unfortunately I dont think they give it to weapons engineers. Kinda the polar opposite. My projects kill people.



Star Trek is nothing but inconsistencies. Why do you think I'm not even commenting on it? The fact that they (producers) have said trek uses and promotes "science," makes me want to puke.  

The part in bolt. The new trek movie has seatbelts

I am not going to argue mathematical inconsistencies because obviously I can't do the math, nor would I care to do so even if I could. I like trek, I have watch all of it and I like star wars.  
Both shows go through retarded loops to satisfy the requirements of plot. It is like arguing between superman vs batman. where in one issue superman could be smashing planets and in the next he is getting crushed by a boulder.

I am merely here to say the tech in star wars even if it is inferior is more then powerful enough to do the job, even if both sides were on a more numerically even playing field.



No one seems to want to talk about star fleet ground forces vs empire.

I called them abunch of retards in adult pajamas.

And stop quoting me so fast. Not even letting me fix simple editing errors.

It took them almost 40 years before we even saw a handheld missile launcher being used by infantry or some sort of optical sight on phaser rifles.

I am still waiting for crewmen on warships to go into battle in pressurized suits to offer some sort of life support in case of life support failure/ being sucked into space.

I was inspired by proper TV... Robotech and Babylon 5.

Probably why most of my projects have either been autonomous robotics or weapon systems.

And it was good to see that the Germans are still alive and a proud group of engineers.  I make that assumption because only they could develop something as unnecessarly complex as the seatbelt system that's shown.

I don't know what Rebel Scum propaganda you've been watching but the Empire kicked ass at Hoth.

Not really.



A quantum torpedo only has double the yield of a photon torpedo with the same size matter/anti-matter warhead.

Source: Star Trek Deep Space Nine Technical Manual page Page 87





That yield increase is worse than fission vs fusion bombs.





Edit: Don't get me wrong, the Defiant is a bad ass ship....in the Trek universe.

Well I hope you are developing a PPG, I could use one of those. I'd probably go down to your place of work and find you colluding with shadows

If it were me, I would put all my chips into mass producing defiants, as that is as close to a pure no frills warship that we see in the trek universe. Heavy turbo lasers would have a difficult time tracking its movements. Probably more vulernable to fighters armed with photon torpedos.

I'm more interested in surgery cereal. Sounds delicious.

have a snickers bar, its healthier.

OK so I got “Heir to the Empire” (A Star Wars novel) and started reading. I’ve enjoyed it so far but I’m just to chapter 4, and speaking of chapter 4…

“It took the Chimaera (an Imperial Star Destroyer) nearly 5 days at its point four cruising speed to cover the three hundred fifty light years between Myrkr and Wayland.”
Now, I’m assuming that means the ISD cruises at .4 of its maximum speed. This seems reasonable. Which means maximum (perhaps not “flank”) speed would be 175 LY a day, or some 64,000 times the speed of light. That’s pretty fast. How fast is it in Star Trek terms? For the TNG stuff the initial claims was that the speed was warp factor^5. (in the old series it was just WF^3) So, that ISD can make steam for a top speed of warp 9.15.

Of course it seems likely that the top speed of a ship in both universes would be affected by the density of the interstellar medium, the relative strength of gravitational and electromagnetic fields and possibly some kind of subetheric clutter. So take those figures with a grain of salt. Point is, at least according to this one “canon” source, an imperial star destroyer is not faster than Federation ships at all.

See, one mistake you are making is assuming (based on what is seen in the films) that the Star Wars galaxy is the size of the Milky Way galaxy. But based on what we see it is probably far, far smaller. (“But, but, the empire contains millions of star systems, and…) Yea, I’m not saying it doesn’t. I’m saying that the Star Wars galaxy may have millions of star systems and millions of worlds under their control, but that the stars and worlds are mostly devoid of significant life. The universe probably only contains a couple thousand actual inhabited planets and perhaps only a few hundred major races. The Star Wars galaxy is likely less than 5,000 light years across as well. This means it would take a month to go from one side of the galaxy to another at the full speed of an ISD.

There is no real reason to assume that the Empire is much bigger than the Federation or that they have more ships. In fact, the Empire’s love of oversized and overmanned ships either indicates a very large industrial base with very limited technology. (And therefore the ships have to be large to accomplish their mission as warships) or it reflects a psychological devotion to individual unit power over mass. (similar to the German’s preoccupation with bigger, more advanced tanks rather than large numbers of simpler and easier to manufacture tanks.)

Granted the Empire can build a lot of big stuff. I mean the Death Star alone has more mass than all the ships the Federation, Klingons, and Romulans ever put into space. Sort of like with the pyramids, cheap droid slave labor gets shit done.

Oh, and ground forces? They both suck ass. As someone said, a single M1 Abrams could have stopped the imperial forces at Hoth.

The TNG warp formula up to warp 9 is or There is no formula after warp 9 because the scale chart was drawn by hand



Trek pretends to have Minovsky Physics but it doesn't because the writers SUCK! Don't believe me? Well if you have Voyager on DVD watch the first episode(both parts) and note the maximum warp speed and then how long it would take to travel 70,000 light years home at that speed. Then watch the episode 37s and note the max speed of Voyager is about 4 billion miles per second.

At that speed it should only a little over 3 years to get home. Maybe a little longer for pit stops and bathroom brakes but not the 70 years originally stated.



If the Empire got transported into the Trek Universe, Starfleet wins because someone will shit some brownish green matter that if fired into an artificial quantum singularity that is being molested by a subspace eversion field it will cause an explosion of douchearon radiation across the entire federation that will cause everything from the War universe to vanish while not affecting thing from the Trek universe because of slight variations in the blarg blarg blarg.



If Trek found itself in the Wars universe the Empire would simply rape the Federation with technology that is 20,0000 years more advance. The empire would also not give second thought to total surface destruction of Federation planets if that's what the situation calls for.

It looks like I settled that.

We all know the Empire would quash the Federation in days.

The only debate left to be had is the ground game. Now even with the "mighty" klingon warriors and Jem Hadar on their side I still think the empire would rape them. The only ground vehicle we got in the entire trek universe was that go cart with a phaser on the back.

Imperial ground forces would mop the Federation's redshirts up in no time flat.

While they were light on support equipment at least Enterprise had the MACOs.  Why star fleet decided in later years the bridge crew was the appropriate compliment for off ship actions is beyond me.

Sun Crusher laughs at your silly ideas.

Yep, the Empire demolished entire worlds. The Federation almost got whupped by one Borg spaceship.

The Empire built a space station the size of a moon to wipe out a planet.  The federation developed a man-sized weapon that could do the same thing (Genesis device).



 

This still going?

The Empire wins, Star Wars is better.

The collective computing skills of all participating in the poll proves it..

Get over it Trekkies. You are nerds, and your heroes are nerds.

If they could work out the whole “protomatter” thing (and the Federation has had something like a century to do so) then they could use the Genesis Device to turn the Death Star into the Happy Fun Star. It would be a friendly shade of yellow, with a big smiley face. It would have a large amusement park, a wave pool, a petting zoo, and clowns. I imagine the stormtroopers would be a little shocked when their armor changed into clown suits. (Maybe this is what happened to create Hello Kitty Vader.) The Happy Fun Star could then travel around the galaxy spreading fun and joy to all the boy, girls, and droids in the Empire.

That sounds like something the Federation would do.

If the two worlds of Star Treck and. Star Wars ever did collide I think they would simply cancel each other out like matter and antimatter.  Nothing left in the aftermath for Arfcomers to do but compare the more plausible hypothetical scenario of Bambi vs. Snow White.

And the Empire has and will use weapons of mass destruction. The Federation not so much.



Starfleet could have easily ended the Dominion war with a single  trilithium torpedo into the Cardassian sun but they didn't



I don't think the Empire would hesitate vaporizing an entire star system if it got the job done.

You can take out 1000 worlds with a genesis device and the empire would still keep coming after you. You could not take out a dozen star fleet member home worlds without star fleet suing for piece.

As I said many times, the empire doesn't even need superweapons, their large capital ships are super weapons. An ISD in orbit can turn a planet's surface to ash in a reasonable short time. If the empire decide that star fleet was too tough to fight directly and that they would rather burn their territory to the ground instead of capturing it, then there would be little star fleet could do to stop them. 5 ISDs hyperdriving to each star fleet planet at relatively the same time and bombarding them from space would end the war in an instant. Starfleet simply is not large enough to protect all their territory at every location and their lack of planetary shields/ ground-to-orbit based weaponry or even orbital defense networks means their worlds are easy targets.

For you babylon 5 nerds, the empire would show up on your doorstep like a fleet a shadow vessels.

The Empire has one weakness. They are extremely centralized.

If you can cut off the head the body will die.  This is the only strategy that would hold any hope for the Federation.


It worked for the Rebellion.

Given the various Star Trek god-tier weapons like thelaron radiation, the genesis device, and whatever torpedo they used to kill the star in Generations, a single terrorist cell could cripple the empire.  Sneak a genesis device onto a civilian transport onto key Empire worlds - Coruscant, Kuat, etc.  The chaos would be unimaginable.  The Empire would pretty much have to cut off trade entirely to prevent such attacks.  The Empire would wither and die.    



 

Compare that to the federation where doing that to a few worlds would pretty much destroy them.

The Empire may be willing to destroy their own worlds, but when somebody does it for you it makes you stop and think.
I believe that even the Emperor would take pause if a Genesis device were unleashed on an Imperial core world.

And a Thalaron weapon used against a Star Destroyer would kill all organic life on board but leave the ship untouched and ready for new occupants.

Where were these weaponized Genesis Devices used in the Dominion War?  Or any time?

Also, Bambi would beat the shit outta snow white.

Do I need to make that thread as well?

Lock away in a janitor's closet at Section 31 HQ.

They weren't used as a weapon ever but that does not mean that if threatened with total defeat and enslavement they wouldn't be. Anything can be weaponized and the Genesis device easier than most. The Klingons were ready to go to war over it.

Antimatter detonated inside a Star Destroyer's shields would make a hell of a dent. Think letting a ship be tractored into a hanger for boarding and then a ton of antimater is suddenly introduced to matter in an uncontrolled reaction.

Also seems that the Empire sucks at security. I mean one old Jedi, a young farm boy that has never been off his home planet, a smuggler that has just blasted his way out of Mos Eisley and ran an Imperial blockade, and a 7 foot tall wall of hair infiltrate the Death Star and rescue their most important prisoner. Yeah they got great security.
Then the same damn crew infiltrates an Imperial base. They get arrested but the incompetent security guys let them escape thereby causing the destruction of the second Death Star and the death of their Emperor.

If that crew can do it then imagine what a trained covert team could do.