Star wars doesnt need to cloak, they will just send a fighter sized sun crusher and have your sun go supernova.

Problem is that your comparing movies made <1984 (I refuse to believe there were SW movies after ROTJ) vs multiple TV show series each getting more and more advanced to combat the last plot hole of a technology bump. Your limited to the story telling of the screen and the respective design teams instead of what is actually said in the script "Those shots, so precise could only come from Storm Troopers" (or whatever the line was). vs the realities of the screen: Storm Troopers are blind as bats. Neither show is particularly realistic in the physics sense, try Babylon 5 for that, both ST and SW are Sci-Fantasy.

In the end, SW had larger ships made to decimate planets and stand up to other ships of the line, each much larger then ST's ships while carrying no reasonable amount of scientific equipment. They were, solely, ships of war.

During the battle of endor, they had laid a trap, they did not need an entire fleet to destroy the rebellion, all they needed was a fleet to prevent their escape while the death star took out their capital ships. The empire was just that a massive galaxy spanning empire, they had huge fleets all over the place. The rebels were indeed considered a threat not because of their military but because they were a political threat to the stability of the empire, the rebellion was effectively what was left of old republican senate. The biggest mistake the empire made was under-estimating the massive plot armor that certain rebel figures had in their possession. Had the empire been able to use this literary technology then they would have won handily.

Expanded universe doesn't count.  And the Sun Crusher is without a doubt one of the most retarded things in the expanded universe.



 

Lets be honest, you need to counter all the "plot devices" in either work of fiction.

Ummm one problem

 

I'd like to see a federation ship engage a squadron of TIE Defenders or TIE Advanced.

Q

This quote tree is the reason why the plot device nonsense has to be removed.

Also, the "quantum" and "temporal" torpedoes were far in advance, by that time the Republic would be in power with Supercruisers, the Empire has ISD II's and Eclipse Class SSD's, etc.


Lets stick to the basics and not the nonsense added later.

It wouldn't need to. Their Capitol ship would be dead before they launched that's the whole point. I love how all the Star Wars guys keep bringing up items and ships and numbers from books that are not canon whereas everything I have used from Star Trek is straight from canon and almost all from movies or vindicated shows. Untill you show me a movie with fleets of supper star destroyers or battles tar Galactica sty broadsides I call bull shit. Janeway fucking one shorted 4-6 Borg cubes then returned home bringing her guns with her.

 

Um show me isd ii's in the movies. Quantum torpedoes are abstract? Try the Jen hadar wars ( the deffiant rarely used PHOTON torpedoes. They were ALL quantum) and fist contact as well as insurrection as well as voyager. Lol abstract and nonissue my ass


 

So just how many hours of show/movie and years of timeline are we talking here? Shit like this propagated because the writers snowballed themselves with the latest and greatest "super threat" thus needing the next upgrade of "super weapon". OK fine, but we are talking Vanilla Episode 4-5-6 Star Wars against a decade of shows and a dozen movies, if we start adding Quantum this, Temporal that, and Weasley's nick-of-time antimatter injection to the deflector shield matrix to reverse the polarity and destroy <x> then we need to start pulling in the expanded books for Star Wars.


Even in First Contact they needed Picard to show them where to fire on the Cube because they were getting their butts whooped.

Transphasic torpedoes and phase cloaking.

Yes both technologies are canon.

All beam arrays can attack multiple enemies  with extreme accuracy

I will stand behind this.

The shit in voyager is every bit as retarded as anything that happens in the expanded universe. Also Expanded universe is cannon....so yeah it counts.

is a letter of the alphabet. But thanks for playing "stuff unrelated to this thread" game.

"We have what we call Canon, which is the screenplays, novelizations, and other works that are directly tied into continuity, and then there are a lot of marginal things, like the old Marvel Comics series, that we don't really try to work into the continuity when we're planning new projects. Even the LucasArts interactive games have a premise, a backstory with player characters that we're trying to tie into the overall continuity. It is sort of a godlike undertaking. We are creating this universe as we go along, but somebody has to keep his finger on everything that came before."
—Lucasfilm's then-continuity editor

If lucas says the expanded universe is cannon then it is cannon.


As for your torpedos.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/Torpedoes/Torpedo1.html

"Photon torpedoes and quantum torpedoes both release energy equal to large nuclear fusion weapons. Star Wars shields have been designed to withstand such weapons- in fact, starfighters routinely fire directed-energy nuclear weapons at capital ships with little or no effect. The ROTJ novelization specifically describes a thermonuclear explosion immediately outside Admiral Ackbar's bridge window in the opening minutes of the Battle of Endor, which was undoubtedly caused by a fighter-launched missile since the capital ships of the two fleets had not yet engaged in battle. This explosion had negligible effect upon Ackbar's vessel, which is of course what one would expect. We project that our Star Destroyers should be able to withstand roughly 1000 photon torpedoes or 370 quantum torpedoes before losing shields. This estimate is based on the ISD shield strength of 1E20 joules determined in the Imperial shield analysis.

However, those torpedoes are almost certain to strike our large Star Destroyers repeatedly in spite of their poor maneuverability, because Star Destroyers have slow turning rates (and are very large targets). Also, we project that our TIE fighters will suffer heavy (but acceptable) losses if the Federation uses proximity-fused photon torpedoes against them.

It is our belief that the historically short combat lifespan of Federation vessels is due to inherent design flaws in those vessels, primarily their use of metastable power generation technology which is prone to catastrophic failure due to system damage. While their starships have been designed and optimised for very short-duration confrontations, all Star Wars Imperial warships were designed for prolonged survivability in combat. It is this design philosophy that gives us our primary advantage over the Federation- we can simply outlast their vessels by continuing to absorb and release punishment after their vessels succumb"

empire bigger faster ships and a hell of a lot more of them.

There is a TNG episode where the Enterprise takes out a squad of three fighters in a second.  It is the episode where the crew is brainwashed to attack another alien's enemy.  TNG is about as cannon as it gets.



 

Not even close! Star Wars

It's actually the end of the jedi

I'll start to entertain that discussion if you could explain to us why you think that he would even get involved, let alone decide to support the Federation rather than the new toys in his sandbox.

Star Trek wins simply due to having a larger expanded storyline and almost half a century since it's inception to improve the technological language of the series itself.

Before someone protests! I have read many of the expanded series Star Wars books...yes the books were good, and they added to the story and technology. However, the technology overall is still significantly different and inferior to that of the Star Trek series.

Yep, so we are now left with including the nonsense in some of the expanded universe for Star Wars and the silliness continues. People don't understand the difference between plot devices and the basic premise. Fucking Trekkies.




I don't know about "inferior". Opening scenes of ANH shows that ISDs could detect life forms on a life pod. ESB showed that shore-to-space weapons could annihilate capital ships in the way. Planetary shields that could withstand a fleet bombardment. ROTJ showed you could block FTL travel (later shown as the Interdictor Cruiser in the books). Its just that ST is more sci-tech and SW was more sci-action.

True. The sensor technology may have been better than they actually showed during the movies. Lucas didn't use in-depth tech lingo like the Star Trek people did... Basic destructive power of weapons (death star) and overall defensive power (planetary shields) was definitely better in Star Wars, but the actual technology wasn't expanded into better applications.

That's because Star Wars is science Fantasy and Star Trek is science Fiction. There is a big difference between the 2 shows.

what does that have to do with quote?

Since when was Q part of starfleet and when were the jedi part of the empire?

Fucking trekkies keep throwing in borg and Q and other ridiculous as though they would ally with the federation. You don't see the star wars people here advocating anything but the empire, because that is the premise of the thread Empire vs Starfleet.

ISD couldn't detect the Falcon when it was attached to it.  Star Trek ships could easily detect objects attached to the hull.  



 

Cryptic needs to contact CBS for approval, and then CBS needs to contact Paramount for approval. Any one of the party can say "no" to the deal and end it - and Paramount can also ask for some compensation for allowing it. It's a complex licensing deal.

It gets even worse if you want any of the JJ stuff because JJ also has right of refusal written into his contracts too. So then CBS, Paramount, and JJ all have to say yes - and can all demand compensation.


This is the order of things for STO

The Imperium of Man would grind both into dust. Warhammer 40k FTW

Apparently the 40k fans do not agree, because I created a thread on just that issue and they all shot it down saying the imperium would be slaughtered without much of a fuss.

The movies and series are cannon. Torpedoes damage shield in the movies and series but not in World of Warcraft in space....I mean Star Trek Online.

Torpedoes have bleed through damage and take the shields down. You can search it. I however use a an assimilated torpedo and the rest are anti-proton beams :)

I threw in the Borg because if the Empire suddenly appeared in the Star Trek galaxy they would eventually have to deal with them. Borg allying with the Federation was never my point

I love both Star Trek and Star Wars and I have no doubt that the Empire would curb stomp the Federation in short order. The only faction in the Star Trek universe that would have a chance against them is the Borg due to the fact that they assimilate technology and either use it or counter it or both.

Now back to our previously scheduled mayhem.

I am still not seeing any arguments for how Imperial ships can possibly cope with the fact that Trek ships are capable of combat at FTL speeds. Without covering that, I can't see how the Empire would have any chance. Even if their weapons were ten times as awesome as the SW advocates suggest, capable of totally blasting the Enterprise into dust, those weapons would never HIT the Enterprise. They aren't fast enough, even if you give the Empire the ability to somehow target FTL enemies. (Which they wouldn't have, since they clearly don't even know FTL combat is even possible or they would damned sure be making use of it.)

Meanwhile, the Trek ships are able to fire on the Imperials with impunity. The Imperials are practically standing still compared to the Federation ships. Occasionally, the Fed ships sidestep as a slow-ass SUPERMEGASWGUY 'turbo laser' lumbers toward them at sublight speed, and retaliate with superluminary speed weapons. Even a small rock hitting you at multiples of the speed of light is going to ruin your day. Yes, even if you have the SUPERMEGASWGUY invulnerable armor. Imagine how much more punch three pounds of matter and antimatter wrapped in a magnetic bubble will do. Not enough? Well, how about five or six of them? Or ten? Or twenty? The Federation ships have all day, and their weapons are traveling, again, at speeds beyond anything SW ships can hope to evade.

But what if this Imperial ship is just BADASS? Sure, 20 photon torpedos all in one spot maybe opens up a hole, but...oh, shit, transporters! Unless SW shields can stand up to running into a planet, they are gone by now, and mater/anti matter bombs are being beamed directly inside the ship, or key personnel are simply transported into space, leaving the Imperial ship unable to operate. It's curtains, either way.

I'd love to hear someone argue this, since it's a fun discussion, but I personally don't see any hope for the Imperials because ST tech is basically magic. It utterly makes no sense that you could engage in FTL combat, but it is a staple of the ST universe. Likewise, the transporter is a ridiculous device that is WAY beyond most of their other tech like phasers and photon torpedos. Hell, it was only created to cover for the fact that they couldn't afford a shuttle mock up at the start of the old series, but the HAVE transporters in the show, and they are stupidly powerful. They have to ignore all of the really crazy shit the tech implies or else there wouldn't even be a show to have.

The sad thing here is that I am a SW fanboy. I even had a SW themed wedding. But I see no way for SW ships to have a snowballs chance in hell of beating Trek ships. Trek ships have the advantage of not having to obey shit like physical laws, due to handwavium being liberally applied from the outset of the show. The core technologies of the setting are simply too far out for me to suspend disbelief. That's why I prefer SW. It only asks me to believe a few impossible things, whereas Trek demands I totally abandon all reason.

You mean this thread where not a single person agreed with the empire winning? lol, re-read your thread.

Sith were running the Empire for a while.  

Q, well he just kind of thought he was Starfleet.....