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Posted: 11/5/2015 10:37:23 AM EST
[#1]
The bull pup would seem better for indoor use, given the shorter OAL and better center of gravity.
ETA: the 9mm AR pistol makes little sense, if you're going from a shotgun to a rifle cartridge. |
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Posted: 11/5/2015 10:38:27 AM EST
[#2]
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Posted: 11/5/2015 10:39:36 AM EST
[#3]
Drop in a Geissele and the Tavor trigger turns from poor to great. Honestly though for a defensive gun the Tavor's factory trigger is perfectly fine, it's really not bad for a bullpup. For use inside of a house or vehicle it's hard to beat a bullpup.
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Posted: 11/5/2015 10:39:40 AM EST
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The bull pup would seem better for indoor use, given the shorter OAL and better center of gravity. That is what has me asking the question. As purpose driven as my gun purchases usually are, and this one would fill the most important niche of home defense, it's so hard for me to consider putting $1.6k into a rifle that shoots 3 MOA. |
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Posted: 11/5/2015 10:40:03 AM EST
[#5]
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Posted: 11/5/2015 10:40:20 AM EST
[#6]
500 dollar AR vs 2k(ish) Tavor, if you use it in legal self defense and it's confiscated (not saying it will be or that it's right)...
I'd rather that Steve the deputy takes the 500 dollar AR as evidence vs my expensive and relatively rare Tavor. That's just me, though. |
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Posted: 11/5/2015 10:41:04 AM EST
[#7]
You can buy an AR, optics, and ammo for the cost of a bare bone TAVOR.
Just saying. |
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Posted: 11/5/2015 10:41:23 AM EST
[#8]
Quote HistoryExactly what I'm looking to do. Move my micro to a HD weapon and slap a 1-6 on the AR for longer range stuff. Beautiful pair BTW. |
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Posted: 11/5/2015 10:42:49 AM EST
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
500 dollar AR vs 2k(ish) Tavor, if you use it in legal self defense and it's confiscated (not saying it will be or that it's right)... I'd rather that Steve the deputy takes the 500 dollar AR as evidence vs my expensive and relatively rare Tavor. That's just me, though. Or the performance difference in tight quarters is the difference between the intruder winning vs you winning.... |
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Posted: 11/5/2015 10:43:11 AM EST
[#10]
Do you have any kind of rifle? Try and move through your house, point it down hallways, clear rooms. It feels ridiculously long indoors. I felt like this: 
A bullpup would make it sooo much easier. |
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Posted: 11/5/2015 10:43:14 AM EST
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That is what has me asking the question. As purpose driven as my gun purchases usually are, and this one would fill the most important niche of home defense, it's so hard for me to consider putting $1.6k into a rifle that shoots 3 MOA. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The bull pup would seem better for indoor use, given the shorter OAL and better center of gravity. That is what has me asking the question. As purpose driven as my gun purchases usually are, and this one would fill the most important niche of home defense, it's so hard for me to consider putting $1.6k into a rifle that shoots 3 MOA. If it's a dedicated HD rifle, then 3MOA isn't a problem at all. (plus, that's similar to what an AK or AR might shoot with common ammo). I'm not an expert on the Tavor, but I imagine it can do better than 3MOA with a bette trigger and good ammo. |
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Posted: 11/5/2015 10:43:34 AM EST
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Drop in a Geissele and the Tavor trigger turns from poor to great. Honestly though for a defensive gun the Tavor's factory trigger is perfectly fine, it's really not bad for a bullpup. For use inside of a house or vehicle it's hard to beat a bullpup. Riddle me this: What's the point of dropping a $300 trigger into a TAVOR to greatly improve the feel of the trigger when the accuracy still sucks? From what I've read, the Geissele or any other drop in takes the function accuracy from ~3 MOA to 2.5 MOA. |
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Posted: 11/5/2015 10:44:21 AM EST
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Or the performance difference in tight quarters is the difference between the intruder winning vs you winning.... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
500 dollar AR vs 2k(ish) Tavor, if you use it in legal self defense and it's confiscated (not saying it will be or that it's right)... I'd rather that Steve the deputy takes the 500 dollar AR as evidence vs my expensive and relatively rare Tavor. That's just me, though. Or the performance difference in tight quarters is the difference between the intruder winning vs you winning.... lol. If this is the case then you need to train more. The Tavor is not some magic wand that makes everything better. |
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Posted: 11/5/2015 10:44:43 AM EST
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Or the performance difference in tight quarters is the difference between the intruder winning vs you winning.... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
500 dollar AR vs 2k(ish) Tavor, if you use it in legal self defense and it's confiscated (not saying it will be or that it's right)... I'd rather that Steve the deputy takes the 500 dollar AR as evidence vs my expensive and relatively rare Tavor. That's just me, though. Or the performance difference in tight quarters is the difference between the intruder winning vs you winning.... Yeah but they'd take his gun..so not a fight worth winning. Let intruder win. |
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Posted: 11/5/2015 10:45:30 AM EST
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Do you have any kind of rifle? Try and move through your house, point it down hallways, clear rooms. It feels ridiculously long indoors. I felt like this: http://i.imgur.com/F525d7T.png A bullpup would make it sooo much easier. I hear you. The AR pistol I've been playing with lately has given me a huge appreciate for SBRs. Thus me leaning towards the TAVOR despite the cost and shortcomings. |
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Posted: 11/5/2015 10:45:35 AM EST
[#16]
Here is a comparison pic of a 14.5" pinned to 16"
And a scorpion, just because 
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Posted: 11/5/2015 10:46:04 AM EST
[#17]
I like my Tavor a lot.
The AR is a better tool with which to fight though. The added length does mean you'll have to pay more attention (and get more practice) in movement, but its not like a 16" AR is big and unwieldy. The 10.5/11 inch AR with a suppressor is "the hot setup" which a ton of knowledgeable people (and me) seem to favor. And that OAL is pretty much the same as a 16" AR. |
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Posted: 11/5/2015 10:46:25 AM EST
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah but they'd take his gun..so not a fight worth winning. Let intruder win. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
500 dollar AR vs 2k(ish) Tavor, if you use it in legal self defense and it's confiscated (not saying it will be or that it's right)... I'd rather that Steve the deputy takes the 500 dollar AR as evidence vs my expensive and relatively rare Tavor. That's just me, though. Or the performance difference in tight quarters is the difference between the intruder winning vs you winning.... Yeah but they'd take his gun..so not a fight worth winning. Let intruder win. If you need a Tavor to clear your home, you should stick with a handgun. |
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Posted: 11/5/2015 10:46:25 AM EST
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
500 dollar AR vs 2k(ish) Tavor, if you use it in legal self defense and it's confiscated (not saying it will be or that it's right)... I'd rather that Steve the deputy takes the 500 dollar AR as evidence vs my expensive and relatively rare Tavor. That's just me, though. I have 2 Tavors. Didn't pay over 1600 for either of them, new. Your point still stands though. |
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Posted: 11/5/2015 10:47:11 AM EST
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have 2 Tavors. Didn't pay over 1600 for either of them, new. Your point still stands though. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
500 dollar AR vs 2k(ish) Tavor, if you use it in legal self defense and it's confiscated (not saying it will be or that it's right)... I'd rather that Steve the deputy takes the 500 dollar AR as evidence vs my expensive and relatively rare Tavor. That's just me, though. I have 2 Tavors. Didn't pay over 1600 for either of them, new. Your point still stands though. Yeah, I wasn't sure on the current price point on them since I'm not shopping for one. |
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Posted: 11/5/2015 10:47:39 AM EST
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
500 dollar AR vs 2k(ish) Tavor, if you use it in legal self defense and it's confiscated (not saying it will be or that it's right)... I'd rather that Steve the deputy takes the 500 dollar AR as evidence vs my expensive and relatively rare Tavor. That's just me, though. I have thousands of dollars in gun related materials in the basement. It would seem to me the last thing I'd want to skimp on is the one gun that I will be using to protect my home and family. I hear your logic though...it is a tough pill to swallow. |
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Posted: 11/5/2015 10:47:49 AM EST
[#22]
bullpups rock indoors
this is an AUG with a 20" barrel vs a 10.5" AR. Going with a 16" AUG will still get you a more compact package than that AR even with the stock fully collapsed  |
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Posted: 11/5/2015 10:49:43 AM EST
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I like my Tavor a lot. The AR is a better tool with which to fight though. The added length does mean you'll have to pay more attention (and get more practice) in movement, but its not like a 16" AR is big and unwieldy. The 10.5/11 inch AR with a suppressor is "the hot setup" which a ton of knowledgeable people (and me) seem to favor. And that OAL is pretty much the same as a 16" AR. Very good point. SBRness negated by suppression...hadn't considered that. |
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Posted: 11/5/2015 10:50:10 AM EST
[#24]
I voted AR pistol because I dont have much experience with the TAVOR. Now if you had asked about an AUG or FS-2000 versus the AR carbine or pistol, I'd have voted bullpup.
My vote goes for reliable bullpup with 16" barrel. It is what I use. an AUG. |
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Posted: 11/5/2015 10:51:15 AM EST
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Riddle me this: What's the point of dropping a $300 trigger into a TAVOR to greatly improve the feel of the trigger when the accuracy still sucks? From what I've read, the Geissele or any other drop in takes the function accuracy from ~3 MOA to 2.5 MOA. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Drop in a Geissele and the Tavor trigger turns from poor to great. Honestly though for a defensive gun the Tavor's factory trigger is perfectly fine, it's really not bad for a bullpup. For use inside of a house or vehicle it's hard to beat a bullpup. Riddle me this: What's the point of dropping a $300 trigger into a TAVOR to greatly improve the feel of the trigger when the accuracy still sucks? From what I've read, the Geissele or any other drop in takes the function accuracy from ~3 MOA to 2.5 MOA. One of the guys I shoot with all the time has a G trigger in his Tavor and with match ammo it will shoot around 1-2MOA @ 100m on par with my AR (probably could not tell the difference shooting match ammo in the groups). The biggest hold back on a stock Tavor is the heavy trigger the rifle is capable of much more with the right ammo, shooter, and a decent trigger. |
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Posted: 11/5/2015 10:51:16 AM EST
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have thousands of dollars in gun related materials in the basement. It would seem to me the last thing I'd want to skimp on is the one gun that I will be using to protect my home and family. I hear your logic though...it is a tough pill to swallow. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
500 dollar AR vs 2k(ish) Tavor, if you use it in legal self defense and it's confiscated (not saying it will be or that it's right)... I'd rather that Steve the deputy takes the 500 dollar AR as evidence vs my expensive and relatively rare Tavor. That's just me, though. I have thousands of dollars in gun related materials in the basement. It would seem to me the last thing I'd want to skimp on is the one gun that I will be using to protect my home and family. I hear your logic though...it is a tough pill to swallow. I don't necessarily think that a 16" AR is skimping, though. We're not saying "use a Keltec SU16", theoretically the AR is equivalent to the Tavor at indoors range as far as lethality but at a much lower price point. |
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Posted: 11/5/2015 10:53:28 AM EST
[#27]
btw, there is nothing inherently inaccurate about a bullpup. this group is from a 20" AUGA1 with 55gr GECO ball, stock trigger and a 1.5x optic:
 |
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Posted: 11/5/2015 10:56:24 AM EST
[#28]
Bullpups really shine in a CQB/vehicle role. I love mine.
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Posted: 11/5/2015 10:57:57 AM EST
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Do you have any kind of rifle? Try and move through your house, point it down hallways, clear rooms. It feels ridiculously long indoors. I felt like this: http://i.imgur.com/F525d7T.png A bullpup would make it sooo much easier. Get two people of similar size one with pistol and one with 16" rifle and get them into modern firing stances aiming down their sights with their toes touching a straight line. The distance to the tip of their barrels will be very very similar. |
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Posted: 11/5/2015 10:57:58 AM EST
[#30]
AR with a short barrel.
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Posted: 11/5/2015 10:59:42 AM EST
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Riddle me this: What's the point of dropping a $300 trigger into a TAVOR to greatly improve the feel of the trigger when the accuracy still sucks? From what I've read, the Geissele or any other drop in takes the function accuracy from ~3 MOA to 2.5 MOA. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Drop in a Geissele and the Tavor trigger turns from poor to great. Honestly though for a defensive gun the Tavor's factory trigger is perfectly fine, it's really not bad for a bullpup. For use inside of a house or vehicle it's hard to beat a bullpup. Riddle me this: What's the point of dropping a $300 trigger into a TAVOR to greatly improve the feel of the trigger when the accuracy still sucks? From what I've read, the Geissele or any other drop in takes the function accuracy from ~3 MOA to 2.5 MOA. Personally I'm not the type of guy to take a rifle like the Tavor and punch groups in paper, I hardly ever do it beyond zeroing. Usually I'll just hang my 8" steel plate at 200yds and if I can hit it reliably that more than satisfies what I need out of that type of rifle. The trigger made it dramatically easier to score hits for me, what that translates to in terms of reduction in group sizes I don't even know but I felt it was worth the money to me. |
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Posted: 11/5/2015 11:00:47 AM EST
[#32]
I can shoot an aug quicker and more accurately then an AR.
the reload and left hand transition can be really really quick if you think logically and practice. You can shoot an AUG one handed without much effort at all due to how it is ass heavy. Meaning as the mag is getting dry you can get a mag ready and stay on target and drop and replace the mag as soon as you run dry. Use your right hand as an offset against your left shoulder and so long as you are using a red dot you can shoot fine. an AUG is much much much easier to use when opening doors or moving shit with your support hand. with an FS-2000 you dont even need to worry about left hand transition because it is forward ejecting |
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Posted: 11/5/2015 11:01:05 AM EST
[#33]
I've wanted a Tavor until I held one. I guess after shooting the AR platform for 20+ years just makes the Tavor feel way too awkward for me. I'm not saying the Tavor is bad, it just isn't for me.
Edit: The new 9mm AR's look really interesting. They're actually built to use the Glock mags, not a regular AR that's adapted to use 9mm mags. I've heard that there's a lot of hit or miss for quality on the adaptor side. Combined with good defensive ammo I would pick the 9mm AR over the 5.56 simply to save on my hearing in the event if I would have to shoot indoors. Not saying I wouldn't have ringing ears after shooting a 9mm AR indoors, just maybe a bit less |
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Posted: 11/5/2015 11:05:42 AM EST
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've wanted a Tavor until I held one. I guess after shooting the AR platform for 20+ years just makes the Tavor feel way too awkward for me. I'm not saying the Tavor is bad, it just isn't for me. The new 9mm AR's look really interesting. Combined with good defensive ammo I would pick the 9mm AR over the 5.56 simply to save on my hearing in the event if I would have to shoot indoors. Not saying I wouldn't have ringing ears after shooting a 9mm AR indoors, just maybe a bit less I'd say that's smart. I've fired an AR from an "indoors like" area without ear protection. It was absolutely excruciating. Not just loud, it was painfully loud. Literally. |
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Posted: 11/5/2015 11:07:54 AM EST
[#35]
Being able to get through doorways without dropping your muzzle near as much/at all to check corners is huge.
AUG > Tavor |
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Posted: 11/5/2015 11:08:20 AM EST
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'd say that's smart. I've fired an AR from an "indoors like" area without ear protection. It was absolutely excruciating. Not just loud, it was painfully loud. Literally. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I've wanted a Tavor until I held one. I guess after shooting the AR platform for 20+ years just makes the Tavor feel way too awkward for me. I'm not saying the Tavor is bad, it just isn't for me. The new 9mm AR's look really interesting. Combined with good defensive ammo I would pick the 9mm AR over the 5.56 simply to save on my hearing in the event if I would have to shoot indoors. Not saying I wouldn't have ringing ears after shooting a 9mm AR indoors, just maybe a bit less I'd say that's smart. I've fired an AR from an "indoors like" area without ear protection. It was absolutely excruciating. Not just loud, it was painfully loud. Literally. Yeah, and it's doubtful any badguys coming in your house are going to give you time to don hearing protection. A Tavor's muzzle is going to be closer to your ears than the muzzle from a 16" AR |
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Posted: 11/5/2015 11:09:32 AM EST
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'd say that's smart. I've fired an AR from an "indoors like" area without ear protection. It was absolutely excruciating. Not just loud, it was painfully loud. Literally. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I've wanted a Tavor until I held one. I guess after shooting the AR platform for 20+ years just makes the Tavor feel way too awkward for me. I'm not saying the Tavor is bad, it just isn't for me. The new 9mm AR's look really interesting. Combined with good defensive ammo I would pick the 9mm AR over the 5.56 simply to save on my hearing in the event if I would have to shoot indoors. Not saying I wouldn't have ringing ears after shooting a 9mm AR indoors, just maybe a bit less I'd say that's smart. I've fired an AR from an "indoors like" area without ear protection. It was absolutely excruciating. Not just loud, it was painfully loud. Literally. I've done this too, yes it is beyond uncomfortable almost to the point of painful. I lifted my ear muff off one ear to talk with someone when the range was cold and forgot to put it back on before shooting. I bought a set of electric muffs that same day 
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Posted: 11/5/2015 11:14:46 AM EST
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've wanted a Tavor until I held one. I guess after shooting the AR platform for 20+ years just makes the Tavor feel way too awkward for me. I'm not saying the Tavor is bad, it just isn't for me. This is ultimately where I land. I really like the Tavor on paper (16" barrel with a very short OAL), but I have so much training and familiarity with the AR-15 family of guns that an AR-based SBR with a can is better for me overall. |
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Posted: 11/5/2015 11:16:11 AM EST
[#39]
Quoted:
You guys have convinced me...I'm ditching the pump action 870 for a carbine for HD. Delaware sucks for class 3, so no SBR's or suppressors for me. What would you choose in my situation for HD, a full length AR or a bullpup? I'm looking particularly at the TAVOR. I know of the TAVOR's shortcomings with center of gravity and trigger. Just looking for other opinions. If you vote other mention in a post what you would prefer and why. For fun and games I'm going to throw a 9mm AR pistol in the poll. I built my wife one with a 7.5" barrel and that thing has been reliable and accurate out to 60 yrds with less recoil and noise than an AR. I like the 18" tavor you can put a bayonet o nit  a 16" carbine is passe to me go 20" for velocity or 14.5 pinned for more mobility
so a 18" tavor is a great compromise. |
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Posted: 11/5/2015 11:16:53 AM EST
[#40]
Have both, like both. Would use either happily.
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Posted: 11/5/2015 11:31:56 AM EST
[#41]
Those who have a Tavor is it really rear heavy? Wondering how it would handle with a can. My 11.5 with a can you can definitely feel its front heavy but not enough to be detrimental. Maybe the Tavor/can would be the hot setup?
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Posted: 11/5/2015 11:39:04 AM EST
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Those who have a Tavor is it really rear heavy? Wondering how it would handle with a can. My 11.5 with a can you can definitely feel its front heavy but not enough to be detrimental. Maybe the Tavor/can would be the hot setup? Tavor is most def rear heavy, but that disappears once you shoulder it. It's hard to explain. It is lightning fast at pointing. Can't see a can really changing that. |
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Posted: 11/5/2015 11:39:23 AM EST
[#43]
AR pistol with SIG Brace fellas'
Just sayin', from California and all... A.W.D. |
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Posted: 11/5/2015 11:40:09 AM EST
[#44]
I know. Kel tec. But this thing looks awesome. |
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Posted: 11/5/2015 11:41:02 AM EST
[#45]
Quote HistoryKel tec. |
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Posted: 11/5/2015 11:41:05 AM EST
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
AR pistol with SIG Brace fellas' Just sayin', from California and all... A.W.D. Still stuck with a less than optimal short barrel. |
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Posted: 11/5/2015 11:42:46 AM EST
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Kel tec. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Kel tec. Skinnier than tavor. Better trigger than tavor. Longer barrel. Ejects cleanly downward. Simple. No gas face with supressor. Adjustable gas block. Lightweight. I know. |
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Posted: 11/5/2015 11:42:56 AM EST
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Have both, like both. Would use either happily. Same here, it was fun and challenging to learn a new manual of arms. I find that the Tavor excelled in unconventional positions like one handed, cg being off, tight spaces, all things that are likely in tight quarters. I keep it in the front of the safe. All that being said the shot timer doesn't lie my times with an AR are faster for reloads and malfunction clearance. Just need to practice more to keep proficient with the Tavor vs being institutionalized with the AR. |
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Posted: 11/5/2015 11:52:57 AM EST
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Still stuck with a less than optimal short barrel. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
AR pistol with SIG Brace fellas' Just sayin', from California and all... A.W.D. Still stuck with a less than optimal short barrel. If we were talking about shooting "at distance," you would have a point, but we are not. This is a home defense scenario, presumably "indoors," where longer barrel lengths (velocity) are not adding up to anything appreciable over a short barrel. Short barrel = easier to use in this situation and bad guy inside my house still hitting the ground dead, as he forgot to bring his chrony when he broke in. A.W.D. |
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Posted: 11/5/2015 11:59:15 AM EST
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If we were talking about shooting "at distance," you would have a point, but we are not. This is a home defense scenario, presumably "indoors," where longer barrel lengths (velocity) are not adding up to anything appreciable over a short barrel. Short barrel = easier to use in this situation and bad guy inside my house still hitting the ground dead, as he forgot to bring his chrony when he broke in. A.W.D. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
AR pistol with SIG Brace fellas' Just sayin', from California and all... A.W.D. Still stuck with a less than optimal short barrel. If we were talking about shooting "at distance," you would have a point, but we are not. This is a home defense scenario, presumably "indoors," where longer barrel lengths (velocity) are not adding up to anything appreciable over a short barrel. Short barrel = easier to use in this situation and bad guy inside my house still hitting the ground dead, as he forgot to bring his chrony when he broke in. A.W.D. ^^^^This AR Pistol 
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