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Posted: 11/5/2015 12:04:10 PM EST
[#1]
SBR an AR. You could come out cheaper or the same depending on the quality and money you choose to throw at it.
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Posted: 11/5/2015 12:07:02 PM EST
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Skinnier than tavor. Better trigger than tavor. Longer barrel. Ejects cleanly downward. Simple. No gas face with supressor. Adjustable gas block. Lightweight. I know. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Kel tec. Skinnier than tavor. Better trigger than tavor. Longer barrel. Ejects cleanly downward. Simple. No gas face with supressor. Adjustable gas block. Lightweight. I know. Kel tec. |
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Posted: 11/5/2015 12:12:48 PM EST
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
SBR an AR. You could come out cheaper or the same depending on the quality and money you choose to throw at it. C'mon dude...it's the second sentence of the OP. Surely not a TLDR situation for an average human. |
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Posted: 11/5/2015 12:17:08 PM EST
[#4]
Quote HistoryCool, now try and fire the top one left handed with any semblance of a sight picture  For HD use, the ability to fire it left, right, and one handed is the most important feature. You might be protecting children, dialing 911, opening a door, etc etc. |
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Posted: 11/5/2015 12:18:13 PM EST
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
C'mon dude...it's the second sentence of the OP. Surely not a TLDR situation for an average human. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
SBR an AR. You could come out cheaper or the same depending on the quality and money you choose to throw at it. C'mon dude...it's the second sentence of the OP. Surely not a TLDR situation for an average human. You got me. Reading is for faggots |
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Posted: 11/5/2015 12:18:45 PM EST
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If we were talking about shooting "at distance," you would have a point, but we are not. This is a home defense scenario, presumably "indoors," where longer barrel lengths (velocity) are not adding up to anything appreciable over a short barrel. Short barrel = easier to use in this situation and bad guy inside my house still hitting the ground dead, as he forgot to bring his chrony when he broke in. A.W.D. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
AR pistol with SIG Brace fellas' Just sayin', from California and all... A.W.D. Still stuck with a less than optimal short barrel. If we were talking about shooting "at distance," you would have a point, but we are not. This is a home defense scenario, presumably "indoors," where longer barrel lengths (velocity) are not adding up to anything appreciable over a short barrel. Short barrel = easier to use in this situation and bad guy inside my house still hitting the ground dead, as he forgot to bring his chrony when he broke in. A.W.D. The problem with the AR pistol is that I do plan on training with it regularly at the range and in a course or two. For that reason, I would not use the sig brace in this instance for fear of unwanted scrutiny, even though I love it on my wife's range toy. An AR pistol sans the sig brace is a step down from one with it IMO. |
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Posted: 11/5/2015 12:22:10 PM EST
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
500 dollar AR vs 2k(ish) Tavor, if you use it in legal self defense and it's confiscated (not saying it will be or that it's right)... I'd rather that Steve the deputy takes the 500 dollar AR as evidence vs my expensive and relatively rare Tavor. That's just me, though. If my life wound up depending on it, a $2K rifle is last on my list of worries. Tavors aren't hard to replace, and as mentioned there is a Geissele trigger available to answer the trigger issue. |
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Posted: 11/5/2015 12:31:57 PM EST
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The problem with the AR pistol is that I do plan on training with it regularly at the range and in a course or two. For that reason, I would not use the sig brace in this instance for fear of unwanted scrutiny, even though I love it on my wife's range toy. An AR pistol sans the sig brace is a step down from one with it IMO. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Quoted:
Quoted:
AR pistol with SIG Brace fellas' Just sayin', from California and all... A.W.D. Still stuck with a less than optimal short barrel. If we were talking about shooting "at distance," you would have a point, but we are not. This is a home defense scenario, presumably "indoors," where longer barrel lengths (velocity) are not adding up to anything appreciable over a short barrel. Short barrel = easier to use in this situation and bad guy inside my house still hitting the ground dead, as he forgot to bring his chrony when he broke in. A.W.D. The problem with the AR pistol is that I do plan on training with it regularly at the range and in a course or two. For that reason, I would not use the sig brace in this instance for fear of unwanted scrutiny, even though I love it on my wife's range toy. An AR pistol sans the sig brace is a step down from one with it IMO. Good point indeed, and I understand completely. This is why with multiple AR's, I tend to build in redundancy in as many practicle ways as I can from one to another, while maintaining the uniqueness of each build and its purpose. This way, I can do a bit of training on all effectively, as things like triggers, sights/optics to a degree, stock length and so-on carry over from one to another. A.W.D. |
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Posted: 11/5/2015 12:45:29 PM EST
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Cool, now try and fire the top one left handed with any semblance of a sight picture
For HD use, the ability to fire it left, right, and one handed is the most important feature. You might be protecting children, dialing 911, opening a door, etc etc. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Cool, now try and fire the top one left handed with any semblance of a sight picture
For HD use, the ability to fire it left, right, and one handed is the most important feature. You might be protecting children, dialing 911, opening a door, etc etc. I don't know, I don't have a Tavor but it doesn't seem to bother this guy much. 
Firing one handed is a huge plus for a bullpup. Far better balance in one hand over a traditional rifle, not to mention shorter OAL opening doors, etc. |
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Posted: 11/5/2015 12:52:15 PM EST
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If my life wound up depending on it, a $2K rifle is last on my list of worries. Tavors aren't hard to replace, and as mentioned there is a Geissele trigger available to answer the trigger issue. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
500 dollar AR vs 2k(ish) Tavor, if you use it in legal self defense and it's confiscated (not saying it will be or that it's right)... I'd rather that Steve the deputy takes the 500 dollar AR as evidence vs my expensive and relatively rare Tavor. That's just me, though. If my life wound up depending on it, a $2K rifle is last on my list of worries. Tavors aren't hard to replace, and as mentioned there is a Geissele trigger available to answer the trigger issue. As I said, you're not giving up any lethality as a HD weapon by going with the cheaper weapon, so it's a non-issue, unless you just want to have expensive firearms. |
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Posted: 11/5/2015 1:07:13 PM EST
[#11]
Other: What about a newer bullpup shotgun? Either the UTAS or KSG will give you the same size benefits as well as some usage options like slugs, low power/penetration short shells, or standard buckshot at the expense of a removable magazine. The shotguns will come out at less than half the price and have fewer moving parts.
I want a Tavor, too, but its a tall price to pay just for an HD firearm. That said, these things are so pretty and their aftermarket support is growing quickly! Hopefully we can get some good marksman barrels soon. Quoted:
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Posted: 11/5/2015 1:35:05 PM EST
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If we were talking about shooting "at distance," you would have a point, but we are not. This is a home defense scenario, presumably "indoors," where longer barrel lengths (velocity) are not adding up to anything appreciable over a short barrel. Short barrel = easier to use in this situation and bad guy inside my house still hitting the ground dead, as he forgot to bring his chrony when he broke in. A.W.D. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
AR pistol with SIG Brace fellas' Just sayin', from California and all... A.W.D. Still stuck with a less than optimal short barrel. If we were talking about shooting "at distance," you would have a point, but we are not. This is a home defense scenario, presumably "indoors," where longer barrel lengths (velocity) are not adding up to anything appreciable over a short barrel. Short barrel = easier to use in this situation and bad guy inside my house still hitting the ground dead, as he forgot to bring his chrony when he broke in. A.W.D. This. But instead of an arm brace, I would go Thorseden Customs cheek weld kit. JMO. |
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Posted: 11/5/2015 1:47:24 PM EST
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Kel tec. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Kel tec. As a right handed guy that shoots lefty a lot due eye dominance, but switches back to right hand a fair amount, I really like the ejection design. ....but then again, it is Kel-tec and they will likely only make 5 a year 
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Posted: 11/5/2015 2:00:58 PM EST
[#14]
Have you put a lot of rounds through an AR? Used it for years?
Stick with the AR if that's what you really know. |
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Posted: 11/5/2015 2:04:50 PM EST
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Other: What about a newer bullpup shotgun? Either the UTAS or KSG will give you the same size benefits as well as some usage options like slugs, low power/penetration short shells, or standard buckshot at the expense of a removable magazine. The shotguns will come out at less than half the price and have fewer moving parts. I want a Tavor, too, but its a tall price to pay just for an HD firearm. That said, these things are so pretty and their aftermarket support is growing quickly! Hopefully we can get some good marksman barrels soon. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Other: What about a newer bullpup shotgun? Either the UTAS or KSG will give you the same size benefits as well as some usage options like slugs, low power/penetration short shells, or standard buckshot at the expense of a removable magazine. The shotguns will come out at less than half the price and have fewer moving parts. I want a Tavor, too, but its a tall price to pay just for an HD firearm. That said, these things are so pretty and their aftermarket support is growing quickly! Hopefully we can get some good marksman barrels soon. Quoted:
<a href="http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj228/nickforney/E7A23FA3-3BD5-43CF-AAAD-12B81400299A.jpg" target="_blank">http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj228/nickforney/E7A23FA3-3BD5-43CF-AAAD-12B81400299A.jpg</a> That Tavor in OD green with the Micro -> 
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Posted: 11/5/2015 7:46:35 PM EST
[#16]
Bump for opinions of people that don't screw around on ARFCOM at work.
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Posted: 11/7/2015 11:16:09 AM EST
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't know, I don't have a Tavor but it doesn't seem to bother this guy much.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIDgXje5fds
Firing one handed is a huge plus for a bullpup. Far better balance in one hand over a traditional rifle, not to mention shorter OAL opening doors, etc. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Cool, now try and fire the top one left handed with any semblance of a sight picture
For HD use, the ability to fire it left, right, and one handed is the most important feature. You might be protecting children, dialing 911, opening a door, etc etc. I don't know, I don't have a Tavor but it doesn't seem to bother this guy much. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIDgXje5fds
Firing one handed is a huge plus for a bullpup. Far better balance in one hand over a traditional rifle, not to mention shorter OAL opening doors, etc. I do have one and you are correct, they're easy to odd one handed. Then again, it's not like a SBRd AR or hell even a 20" AR is that hard to hold up with one hand. |
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Posted: 11/7/2015 11:34:43 AM EST
[#18]
Build an AR pistol and use a KAK super tube + Thordsen Cheek rest. Why spend $1500 on a bull-pup when you could build a nice HD AR pistol w/ optic,light, etc...for under $1000. Spend the extra $500 on ammo to practice with.
10.5" in 5.56 would be best but if you go to a variant like 6.8/6.5 you could go as short as 7.5" to 8.5" and retain the same terminal effects. Must have components: 1-Good iron sights or red dot. 2-Good weapon mounted light that gives momentary and constant on function. 3- Linear comp to redirect the noise and flash toward your target. 4-lawyers number I personally don't like a sling on a home defense type weapon. It has the chance of catching on shit, flopping around, and getting in the way. The only time I am putting that gun down after a HD shooting is when the 911 operator tells me to because the cops are coming in. |
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Posted: 11/7/2015 11:43:57 AM EST
[#19]
Side eject bullpups are WORSE indoors than an AR.
Most others are too due to set up. You guys advocating them need to learn some modern cqb stuff. |
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Posted: 11/7/2015 11:56:12 AM EST
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Build an AR pistol and use a KAK super tube + Thordsen Cheek rest. Why spend $1500 on a bull-pup when you could build a nice HD AR pistol w/ optic,light, etc...for under $1000. Spend the extra $500 on ammo to practice with. 10.5" in 5.56 would be best but if you go to a variant like 6.8/6.5 you could go as short as 7.5" to 8.5" and retain the same terminal effects. Must have components: 1-Good iron sights or red dot. 2-Good weapon mounted light that gives momentary and constant on function. 3- Linear comp to redirect the noise and flash toward your target. 4-lawyers number I personally don't like a sling on a home defense type weapon. It has the chance of catching on shit, flopping around, and getting in the way. The only time I am putting that gun down after a HD shooting is when the 911 operator tells me to because the cops are coming in. Agree with all this except the sling and YMMV. |
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Posted: 11/7/2015 12:14:14 PM EST
[#21]
I liked the tavor until I shot it suppressed. I know that's not an issue for you OP.
I would handle an RDB before buying a tavor. And OP, do a 14.5 pin and weld AR in 300blk with a light and optic. If you can't have a can, that's what I'd do. |
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Posted: 11/7/2015 12:16:01 PM EST
[#22]
A friend of mine has a Tavor. I think I would rather have it if I was worried about going through doors and down hallways in my home. I never had a problem with the trigger for putting rounds in the center of a man sized target at across the room distances. That said I own a 16in AR, as much as I like his Tavor, I don't need to spend that much on a gun right now.
 But hey if you have the disposable income for one, grab it and try one out, its a nice little gun to shoot.
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Posted: 11/7/2015 12:19:41 PM EST
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Side eject bullpups are WORSE indoors than an AR. Most others are too due to set up. You guys advocating them need to learn some modern cqb stuff. I saw a great video recently Where they had pistol in one hand and knife in the other. They would shoot shoot shoot the target in front of them and stab stab stab the target behind them. Can't get more modern than that. |
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Posted: 11/7/2015 12:25:14 PM EST
[#24]
If you cannot SBR the AR get a BCM ELW 14.5 and Aimpoint T-2 and a good light
plenty of mags,a sling,lots of ammo practice practice practice all your HD scenarios A good carbine class would be icing on the cake |
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Posted: 11/7/2015 12:26:17 PM EST
[#25]
a tavor in its natural environment, surrounded by bundles of sticks
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Posted: 11/7/2015 12:32:28 PM EST
[#26]
That pic makes that rifle look 6 ft long
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Do you have any kind of rifle? Try and move through your house, point it down hallways, clear rooms. It feels ridiculously long indoors. I felt like this: http://i.imgur.com/F525d7T.png A bullpup would make it sooo much easier. |
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Posted: 11/7/2015 12:32:45 PM EST
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Personally I'm not the type of guy to take a rifle like the Tavor and punch groups in paper, I hardly ever do it beyond zeroing. Usually I'll just hang my 8" steel plate at 200yds and if I can hit it reliably that more than satisfies what I need out of that type of rifle. The trigger made it dramatically easier to score hits for me, what that translates to in terms of reduction in group sizes I don't even know but I felt it was worth the money to me. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Drop in a Geissele and the Tavor trigger turns from poor to great. Honestly though for a defensive gun the Tavor's factory trigger is perfectly fine, it's really not bad for a bullpup. For use inside of a house or vehicle it's hard to beat a bullpup. Riddle me this: What's the point of dropping a $300 trigger into a TAVOR to greatly improve the feel of the trigger when the accuracy still sucks? From what I've read, the Geissele or any other drop in takes the function accuracy from ~3 MOA to 2.5 MOA. Personally I'm not the type of guy to take a rifle like the Tavor and punch groups in paper, I hardly ever do it beyond zeroing. Usually I'll just hang my 8" steel plate at 200yds and if I can hit it reliably that more than satisfies what I need out of that type of rifle. The trigger made it dramatically easier to score hits for me, what that translates to in terms of reduction in group sizes I don't even know but I felt it was worth the money to me. |
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Posted: 11/7/2015 12:37:32 PM EST
[#28]
If you don't/can't go with a 10.5" SBR AR I would choose the Tavor 100% of the time. They both have their strengths. In close quarters, barrel length matters, the Tavor is shorter in OAL and better at one handed operations then the 10.5 AR.
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Posted: 11/7/2015 12:39:49 PM EST
[#29]
Quote History |
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Posted: 11/7/2015 12:42:22 PM EST
[#30]
I voted other. Save your money and buy an AUG. superior to the Rabor in every wY except magazine comparability with ARs
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Posted: 11/7/2015 12:46:22 PM EST
[#31]
GLOCK 19
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Posted: 11/7/2015 12:50:48 PM EST
[#32]
I like my tavor for hd, I also have the Evo and SBR's. I like that I can actually shoot the tavor 1 handed in case I had to grab a loved one and keep the rifle on target. I'm not at all worried about cost, if I had to use it to defend my home it was well worth it.
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Posted: 11/7/2015 12:57:52 PM EST
[#33]
Quote HistoryYou know that stock isn;t fixed, right? I'm 6'3" and run mine at position 1. It'd clean up that disparity in your pic a lot. |
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Posted: 11/7/2015 1:02:14 PM EST
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I like that I can actually shoot the tavor 1 handed Why cant you shoot an AR one handed? |
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Posted: 11/7/2015 1:15:00 PM EST
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
GLOCK 19 +1 |
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Posted: 11/7/2015 1:15:41 PM EST
[#36]
i voted other and suggest a 9mm AR.
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Posted: 11/7/2015 1:30:44 PM EST
[#37]
I love my Tavor but I have one problem with it. And it's grabbing it. There is no easy way to just pick the gun up from various positions. An AR is just natural to grab. You can grab it by the top of the rail, by the bottom of the rail, by the barrel, by the buffer tube, by the PG....and they all feel natural and instinctive. With the Tavor, its really hard to just pick the rifle up. Pick it up by the top rail and its awkward. Pick it up by the bottom rail and its ass heavy. Pick it up the PG and your wrist is banging on the mag. Once its shouldered, I love it. But getting it to that point is less than ideal. I hear all the complaints about triggers, gas face, brass face (offhand shooting), manual of arms, mag changes, etc and all of those are easy to overcome (albeit some may require $$$.) But none of them correct this one problem. The AR just shines in this department. Its probably the easiest rifle to pick up from any position it happens to be in and start sending rounds down range. ETA: Added gratuitous Tavor pic. 
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Posted: 11/7/2015 1:37:32 PM EST
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why cant you shoot an AR one handed? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I like that I can actually shoot the tavor 1 handed Why cant you shoot an AR one handed? Arm fatigue! Train an AR one handed on a target, then try a Tavor. The AR is not even in the same league. |
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Posted: 11/7/2015 1:40:48 PM EST
[#39]
have a similar setup. 10.5, pistol, brace. depending on the spaces and distances you have its handy enough. I prefer a 20 rounder just for balance but 30 works. anything with an expanding projectile seems reasonable. I have a bunch of SOST i bought cheap years ago so that's what I leave in it.
It's still short enough to leave you a free hand for door knobs, light switches, phones, carrying a kid, or whatever. If not legal in DE, standard AR, then just a pistol with a streamlight. The tavor is neat but it has a different manual of arms and wouldn't be my first choice. I guess with enough practice mag changes would feel less wrong. That said I have shot them before and after a trigger upgrade, same with the AUG, perfectly good accuracy and reliability for a home defense weapon. If you have the budget the AUG a3 with a rail for your light is good too. I disliked then FN bullpup. A basic rifle seems more practical leaving money for a good light, optic, and ammo. If money isn't an issue the bullpups have been reliable in my use of them (hundreds of rounds w no malfunctions). I can't remember what fails to locks back on empty or won't fit pmags well or whatever from bullpup day. There are caveats. 
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Posted: 11/7/2015 2:00:34 PM EST
[#40]
Quote HistoryMe gusta but Kel-Tec 
Now, if that gun surpasses their normal reputation, came in under a grand I'll buy one. |
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Posted: 11/7/2015 2:05:34 PM EST
[#41]
Either/or. They're both semi-automatic, 5.56 carbines that accept magazines with a reasonable capacity. You'd also be fine with a 5.56 AK, SIG or any other 5.56 rifle you've shot enough to be confident in using.
I'd probably use the AR15 because I like the manual of arms, and I've got more time shooting ARs than any other rifle. ETA: I thought you had the Tavor already, this is a definitely a point to consider if you don't. Quoted:
You can buy an AR, optics, and ammo for the cost of a bare bone TAVOR. Just saying. For that matter, you can build a very useable AR pistol for a quite affordable price, as well. |
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Posted: 11/7/2015 7:25:58 PM EST
[#42]
I'd say that's smart. I've fired an AR from an "indoors like" area without ear protection. It was absolutely excruciating. Not just loud, it was painfully loud. Literally. This is certainly something to consider. Remember also that bullpups are louder (from the shooter's perspective) because of the design (action just under your face, end of barrel closer). |
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Posted: 11/7/2015 8:49:40 PM EST
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Arm fatigue! Train an AR one handed on a target, then try a Tavor. The AR is not even in the same league. You are right, its not in the same league, Tavor is peewee, AR is NFL. I shoot ARs one handed all the time, heck my wife can shoot them one handed. I have handled Tavors plenty, they are gross boat anchors dude. I would rather clear rooms with an M16A4 than one of those clunky shitpiles. |
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Posted: 11/7/2015 8:53:19 PM EST
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You are right, its not in the same league, Tavor is peewee, AR is NFL. I shoot ARs one handed all the time, heck my wife can shoot them one handed. I have handled Tavors plenty, they are gross boat anchors dude. I would rather clear rooms with an M16A4 than one of those clunky shitpiles. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Arm fatigue! Train an AR one handed on a target, then try a Tavor. The AR is not even in the same league. You are right, its not in the same league, Tavor is peewee, AR is NFL. I shoot ARs one handed all the time, heck my wife can shoot them one handed. I have handled Tavors plenty, they are gross boat anchors dude. I would rather clear rooms with an M16A4 than one of those clunky shitpiles. |
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Posted: 11/7/2015 8:57:29 PM EST
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
aK or TAVOR? Id take an AK74 over a Tavor. |
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Posted: 11/7/2015 8:58:14 PM EST
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That is what has me asking the question. As purpose driven as my gun purchases usually are, and this one would fill the most important niche of home defense, it's so hard for me to consider putting $1.6k into a rifle that shoots 3 MOA. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The bull pup would seem better for indoor use, given the shorter OAL and better center of gravity. That is what has me asking the question. As purpose driven as my gun purchases usually are, and this one would fill the most important niche of home defense, it's so hard for me to consider putting $1.6k into a rifle that shoots 3 MOA. As you say, inside a building 3 MOA is irrelevant. |
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Posted: 11/7/2015 9:01:20 PM EST
[#47]
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Posted: 11/8/2015 12:27:24 AM EST
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Id take an AK74 over a Tavor. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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aK or TAVOR? Id take an AK74 over a Tavor. Ouch |
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Posted: 11/8/2015 12:30:24 AM EST
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You are right, its not in the same league, Tavor is peewee, AR is NFL. I shoot ARs one handed all the time, heck my wife can shoot them one handed. I have handled Tavors plenty, they are gross boat anchors dude. I would rather clear rooms with an M16A4 than one of those clunky shitpiles. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Arm fatigue! Train an AR one handed on a target, then try a Tavor. The AR is not even in the same league. You are right, its not in the same league, Tavor is peewee, AR is NFL. I shoot ARs one handed all the time, heck my wife can shoot them one handed. I have handled Tavors plenty, they are gross boat anchors dude. I would rather clear rooms with an M16A4 than one of those clunky shitpiles. 
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Posted: 11/8/2015 12:31:01 AM EST
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
500 dollar AR vs 2k(ish) Tavor, if you use it in legal self defense and it's confiscated (not saying it will be or that it's right)... I'd rather that Steve the deputy takes the 500 dollar AR as evidence vs my expensive and relatively rare Tavor. That's just me, though. Really? You use a rifle to save your life, which never happens, btw, and then you worry about the cost. My life and my family's life is worth more than $2k, so whatever. |
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