User Panel
Quoted: So when did the CIA ever blow up a civilian airliner with mostly all Americans aboard? What target is so important to murder that many Americans. Wouldn't it be better to just order the plane to turn around and meet and greet on the ground? We didn't shoot down hijacked airliners just to nail some terrorists, why now? You guys are watching way too many Hollywood movies where the CIA is always the bad guy. You are now believing the propaganda. View Quote You have too much faith in your government. If it served the purposes of the people in power 1000 or 10000 or even 1 million regular American lives don't mean jack shit to them. |
|
Quoted: what they saw was not twa 800 do the math 12 miles off the coast. aircraft breaks up on fore and climbs 3000 feet and the fbi claims it looked like a misdile going p at 12 miles away, at 13,000 feet that is an angle of 10 degrees high off the horizon. then it catches fire and climbs 3000 feet that is a gain of 2.5 degrees higher. so we are to believe witnesses see a plane 10 degrees high climb on fire to 12.5 degrees high and it is mistaken for a missile leaving the water bullshit you would not even see that 2.5 degree movement View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Okay. Let's roll with your theory TWA800 was somehow within range of a stinger. Where is the evidence of a missile detonation? No metal perforation patterns on the recovered fuselage hint at a near proximity high velocity explosion/detonation. Were you on the recovery team or were you doing analysis back at the hanger? Or did you just read an excerpt of an 'official' report in the media? I'm not saying it was a SAM...I have no idea...but I also know that other than the folks who were fishing debris out of the water, and the forensic folks doing the physical analysis, everything else is 2nd hand information at best. A lot of effort went in to discrediting eye witnesses. Despite the fact that a number of completely objective observants all reported seeing similar things...like a fire climbing in the sky up toward the plane....prior to the explosion...all official sources deny this was possible. Did all those eye witnesses 'mis-remember'? Did a bunch of folks with nothing to gain by doing so (and no prior communication with each other) all make up the exact same story? If there was some physical phenomena that resulted in what those people observed, why hasn't it be replicated? I'm not saying that the official findings aren't possible...sure....I suppose an electric short in proximity to thousands of gallons of jet fuel could make a pretty big bang...and if there were no eye witnesses claiming they saw a rocket flying upward toward the plane...and if the NTSB quietly made the determination without all the hype and pressure on silencing other possible reasons, it might be believable. In truth, I have no clue what happened that night. I can only look at the probabilities of the various hypotheses. That said, I think its more likely that a bad actor was responsible than a faulty electrical circuit. what they saw was not twa 800 do the math 12 miles off the coast. aircraft breaks up on fore and climbs 3000 feet and the fbi claims it looked like a misdile going p at 12 miles away, at 13,000 feet that is an angle of 10 degrees high off the horizon. then it catches fire and climbs 3000 feet that is a gain of 2.5 degrees higher. so we are to believe witnesses see a plane 10 degrees high climb on fire to 12.5 degrees high and it is mistaken for a missile leaving the water bullshit you would not even see that 2.5 degree movement There's some pretty solid testimony to corroborate that starting on page 243 of the NTSB report https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/AAR0003.pdf The pilot of Eastwind Airlines flight 507According to radar data, about the time of the last secondary radar return from TWA flight 800, Eastwind flight 507 was located about 24 nm northeast of TWA flight 800s location at an altitude of about 15,400 feet.499 According to a statement that he prepared on the night of the accident, the captain of Eastwind flight 507 reported seeing what looked like an off-colored landing light that at first he thought might be an engine fire.500 He subsequently identified the landing light as an airplane that he needed to monitor. According to documents pertaining to an interview the day after the accident, the captain of Eastwind flight 507 estimated that he observed the airplane for about 2 to 3 minutes.501 To signal the flight crew of the other aircraft that they were in sight, the Eastwind captain switched on his own landing lights. As he flicked on his own landing lights, the aircraft that he had been watching exploded into a very large ball of flames.502 According to the statement that he prepared on the evening of the accident, [a]lmost immediately two flaming objects, with flames trailing about 4,000 feet behind them, fell out of the bottom of the ball of flame. Crewmembers (the pilot, copilot, and flight engineer) in a New York Air National Guard (NYANG) HH-60 helicopter, who at the time of the accident were performing instrument approaches about 11 nm from where the main portion of the wreckage fell into the ocean, were interviewed by the FBI shortly after the accident. According to documentation of those interviews, the pilot of the NYANG helicopter stated that he first observed a red streak of light moving very fast from right to left504 and that it was traveling in a gradually descending arcalmost horizontally. He stated that he observed the streak for about 1 to 2 seconds after which he saw an explosion. He described the streak as having the trajectory and image of a shooting star. In an interview with the Safety Boards initial Witness Group (conducted on January 11, 1997), he indicated that he observed a red-orange streak of light moving horizontally for about 3 to 5 seconds in a gradually descending arc that he described as a gentle descending trajectorysimilar to a shooting star. He then saw what he described as an explosion, followed 1 to 2 seconds later by a second and possibly a third explosion.505 He stated that he then saw a fireball, which he described as four times the size of the sun, that hit the oceans surface about 10 seconds after he first saw the fireball.506 The HH-60 pilot indicated that the fireball followed the same trajectory as the streak. According to the witness documents, the pilot stated that he had no idea what it was and that he never saw anything that he identified as an airplane. The witness documents indicated that the copilot and flight engineer from the HH-60 stated that their first observation of the event was of flaming debris at an estimated altitude of 4,000 to 5,000 feet and that this flaming debris hit the water about 8 seconds after they first spotted it. According to the witness documents, the copilot stated that, although he did not remember it on the evening of the accident, the next day he remembered seeing an object streaking from his left to his right just before the appearance of the fireball. He characterized this object as being like an incendiary device or a pyrotechnic. He stated that he then saw a succession of three explosions, each longer than the last. According to the NAWC-WD ballistics/warhead testing expert, although sometypes of damage inflicted by warheads can be caused by other events524 high-velocity fragment penetrations are unique to explosive events and give investigators a conclusive method of identifying these encounters when they occur. Previous testing on both commercial and military aircraft has shown that even with small shoulder-launched weapons, high-velocity fragmentation damage to the aircraft will exist over large areas of the target.Based on previous testing performed by the military and [FAA], it is inconceivable that a warhead could have detonated in or near the fuselage without leaving evidence of high-velocity fragmentation damage somewhere on the recovered wreckage. NAWC-WD also performed infrared signature measurements of 747s on approach to a commercial airport to identify the most likely tracking points for a shoulder-launched missile. According to the NAWC-WD report, infrared seekers on shoulder-launched missiles typically aim for hot spots, such as engine exhausts or inlets. The NAWC-WD infrared measurements showed that the four engines and the underside of the fuselage where the air conditioning pack bay is located (under the CWT) were the hot spots on the 747. The NAWC-WD report indicated that its experts observed no evidence of high-velocity fragmentation damage on the accident airplane. Specifically, the report indicated that no such damage was observed on the accident airplanes engines or air conditioning pack components. The NAWC-WD report concluded the following: No conclusive evidence of missile impacts exists on any of the recovered wreckage of TWA flight 800. No evidence of high-velocity fragment impacts exists, which indicates a live warhead did not detonate within or near the exterior of the aircraft....The possibility that a shoulder-launched missile was launched at TWA flight 800, failed to intercept it, self-destructed in close proximity,[525] and initiated the breakup of the aircraft is highly improbable. |
|
Quoted: The Navy has rigid safety protocols. One of those is visual range clearance to preclude range fouling contacts that do not show up on radar. I have conducted numerous Shipboard missile and CIWS firings and provided range clearance services for many others. US Navy missile tests are not conducted at night. Period. View Quote Aft lookout: Bridge; Coontz just fired a missile. Bridge: What? Aft lookout: Coontz just fired a missile. Klaxon sounding "General Quarters, General Quarters. This is not a drill. This is NOT a drill." USS Coontz accidently firing a Harpoon while doing a PM at sea. |
|
Quoted: No missile testing gets shot at night/dusk. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Seawolf was going thru trials, stands to reason they were testing new stuff. You’ll have to spell out your reasons, I’m not seeing. Are you asking how comms with the sub might work? I think a lot of times they use aircraft... a P-something... No missile testing gets shot at night/dusk. Missile training happens at all hours. There are youtube videos of marines shooting live stingers at night. This wasnt some super duper secret weapon test, it was a mundane fuckup or a medium-well funded islamic terror attack |
|
Quoted: Well....thats kinda the thing...there is no evidence...in any direction....just supposition and a whole lot of assumption based on calculations and likely correlation. I would be shocked if this was an 'accident'. The whole 'Navy training gone wrong' is ridiculous. And, at the same time, the short circuit seems like an incredible long shot. Bad actor seems far more plausible, and explains why so many agencies drove the investigation in so many directions. I have no idea what took that plane out of the sky, but I think its unlikely that it was a simple mechanical failure, and even more unlikely that the USN fucked up. My guess...some rogue actor took out the plane and there were enough reasons that folks in power decided its was better to white wash it all than it was to be forthcoming. No conspiracy....no clandestine act....just an attack by a rogue actor and a decision to keep that hidden from the public. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Okay. Let's roll with your theory TWA800 was somehow within range of a stinger. Where is the evidence of a missile detonation? No metal perforation patterns on the recovered fuselage hint at a near proximity high velocity explosion/detonation. Were you on the recovery team or were you doing analysis back at the hanger? Or did you just read an excerpt of an 'official' report in the media? I'm not saying it was a SAM...I have no idea...but I also know that other than the folks who were fishing debris out of the water, and the forensic folks doing the physical analysis, everything else is 2nd hand information at best. A lot of effort went in to discrediting eye witnesses. Despite the fact that a number of completely objective observants all reported seeing similar things...like a fire climbing in the sky up toward the plane....prior to the explosion...all official sources deny this was possible. Did all those eye witnesses 'mis-remember'? Did a bunch of folks with nothing to gain by doing so (and no prior communication with each other) all make up the exact same story? If there was some physical phenomena that resulted in what those people observed, why hasn't it be replicated? I'm not saying that the official findings aren't possible...sure....I suppose an electric short in proximity to thousands of gallons of jet fuel could make a pretty big bang...and if there were no eye witnesses claiming they saw a rocket flying upward toward the plane...and if the NTSB quietly made the determination without all the hype and pressure on silencing other possible reasons, it might be believable. In truth, I have no clue what happened that night. I can only look at the probabilities of the various hypotheses. That said, I think its more likely that a bad actor was responsible than a faulty electrical circuit. So show us the evidence.... I'm not even discounting a bomb or other nefarious means to take down the aircraft. But a few select ARF retreads that keep going on about A US MANPADS weapon system taking down an aircraft flying well above the max ceiling from a US warship is pants on head retarded. A few folks in this thread need evaluated... Well....thats kinda the thing...there is no evidence...in any direction....just supposition and a whole lot of assumption based on calculations and likely correlation. I would be shocked if this was an 'accident'. The whole 'Navy training gone wrong' is ridiculous. And, at the same time, the short circuit seems like an incredible long shot. Bad actor seems far more plausible, and explains why so many agencies drove the investigation in so many directions. I have no idea what took that plane out of the sky, but I think its unlikely that it was a simple mechanical failure, and even more unlikely that the USN fucked up. My guess...some rogue actor took out the plane and there were enough reasons that folks in power decided its was better to white wash it all than it was to be forthcoming. No conspiracy....no clandestine act....just an attack by a rogue actor and a decision to keep that hidden from the public. exactly |
|
Quoted: Don't forget, that ship transited all the way from Iran, through the Suez and Strog, or around the horn of Africa, and was never detected, not tracked, either on the inbound or outbound leg. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: So, on one of the busiest air and shipping corridors in the world, a vessel entered American waters and launched a 1900 lb missile (Hawk) somehow without the command radar and equipment trailer (need another boat for that) without a single ship out of hundreds waiting to transit the port seeing them. This missile didn't leave so much as a cornflake of evidence and didn't show up on any radars. ( A hawk launch would look like the yacht exploded) These two ships then sailed away and never said a word about committing a terrorist attack. It may have been a bomb, it may have been a fuel tank explosion. It damn sure was not a missile. Don't forget, that ship transited all the way from Iran, through the Suez and Strog, or around the horn of Africa, and was never detected, not tracked, either on the inbound or outbound leg. who says it wasnt being tracked? |
|
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So, on one of the busiest air and shipping corridors in the world, a vessel entered American waters and launched a 1900 lb missile (Hawk) somehow without the command radar and equipment trailer (need another boat for that) without a single ship out of hundreds waiting to transit the port seeing them. This missile didn't leave so much as a cornflake of evidence and didn't show up on any radars. ( A hawk launch would look like the yacht exploded) These two ships then sailed away and never said a word about committing a terrorist attack. It may have been a bomb, it may have been a fuel tank explosion. It damn sure was not a missile. Don't forget, that ship transited all the way from Iran, through the Suez and Strog, or around the horn of Africa, and was never detected, not tracked, either on the inbound or outbound leg. who says it wasnt being tracked? People have forgotten how utterly rotten the Clinton Admin was apparently. They were completely pwnd by terrorists the entire Administration. |
|
Quoted: As a fellow aviator, I’d be interested in your opinion of a nose-less 747 climbing 4000 ft View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: what they saw was not twa 800 do the math 12 miles off the coast. aircraft breaks up on fore and climbs 3000 feet and the fbi claims it looked like a misdile going p at 12 miles away, at 13,000 feet that is an angle of 10 degrees high off the horizon. then it catches fire and climbs 3000 feet that is a gain of 2.5 degrees higher. so we are to believe witnesses see a plane 10 degrees high climb on fire to 12.5 degrees high and it is mistaken for a missile leaving the water bullshit you would not even see that 2.5 degree movement As a fellow aviator, I’d be interested in your opinion of a nose-less 747 climbing 4000 ft I doubt that even happened. it would break apart not climb 3 or 4 thousand feet. The whole narrative is fantasy |
|
Quoted: "According to a senior member of the staff of then-Secretary of the Navy John Dalton, the test firing of a new generation Navy missile from the submarine USS Seawolf accidentally struck TWA flight 800 en route from New York to Paris on July 17, 1996. According to the former Navy official, the missile test was so important for the Clinton administration, it was being shown live on a Navy closed-circuit television feed at the White House. The Seawolf's missile was to have struck a drone reportedly being towed by a Navy P-3 Orion maritime surveillance aircraft. However, to the horror of the Navy personnel involved with the test and senior White House staff gathered to witness the missile's successful launching, it veered off course and intercepted the TWA 800 Boeing 747, killing the 230 passengers and crew on board the aircraft." I'm not reading past that. A sub-launched missile in the 90s that hit an airliner around 15000AGL. Missile test being watched by Hilly, Bill, and Al at night as it happened. Drone being -towed- by a P3. Test shot actually has a live warhead and smackitates TWA800. CSB. View Quote "What happens below the waves, stays below the waves." |
|
Quoted: A missile would be even harder to see though at those angles and distances, especially a small MANPAD. There was a period of time between the CWT rupture/explosion and final catastrophic breakup. What is more likely at that shallow angle being visible, a small manpad, or a 747 with a full fuel load burning? There's some pretty solid testimony to corroborate that starting on page 243 of the NTSB report https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/AAR0003.pdf NAWC-WD also looked at it for a missile intercept (quotes from page 251) View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Okay. Let's roll with your theory TWA800 was somehow within range of a stinger. Where is the evidence of a missile detonation? No metal perforation patterns on the recovered fuselage hint at a near proximity high velocity explosion/detonation. Were you on the recovery team or were you doing analysis back at the hanger? Or did you just read an excerpt of an 'official' report in the media? I'm not saying it was a SAM...I have no idea...but I also know that other than the folks who were fishing debris out of the water, and the forensic folks doing the physical analysis, everything else is 2nd hand information at best. A lot of effort went in to discrediting eye witnesses. Despite the fact that a number of completely objective observants all reported seeing similar things...like a fire climbing in the sky up toward the plane....prior to the explosion...all official sources deny this was possible. Did all those eye witnesses 'mis-remember'? Did a bunch of folks with nothing to gain by doing so (and no prior communication with each other) all make up the exact same story? If there was some physical phenomena that resulted in what those people observed, why hasn't it be replicated? I'm not saying that the official findings aren't possible...sure....I suppose an electric short in proximity to thousands of gallons of jet fuel could make a pretty big bang...and if there were no eye witnesses claiming they saw a rocket flying upward toward the plane...and if the NTSB quietly made the determination without all the hype and pressure on silencing other possible reasons, it might be believable. In truth, I have no clue what happened that night. I can only look at the probabilities of the various hypotheses. That said, I think its more likely that a bad actor was responsible than a faulty electrical circuit. what they saw was not twa 800 do the math 12 miles off the coast. aircraft breaks up on fore and climbs 3000 feet and the fbi claims it looked like a misdile going p at 12 miles away, at 13,000 feet that is an angle of 10 degrees high off the horizon. then it catches fire and climbs 3000 feet that is a gain of 2.5 degrees higher. so we are to believe witnesses see a plane 10 degrees high climb on fire to 12.5 degrees high and it is mistaken for a missile leaving the water bullshit you would not even see that 2.5 degree movement There's some pretty solid testimony to corroborate that starting on page 243 of the NTSB report https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/AAR0003.pdf The pilot of Eastwind Airlines flight 507According to radar data, about the time of the last secondary radar return from TWA flight 800, Eastwind flight 507 was located about 24 nm northeast of TWA flight 800s location at an altitude of about 15,400 feet.499 According to a statement that he prepared on the night of the accident, the captain of Eastwind flight 507 reported seeing what looked like an off-colored landing light that at first he thought might be an engine fire.500 He subsequently identified the landing light as an airplane that he needed to monitor. According to documents pertaining to an interview the day after the accident, the captain of Eastwind flight 507 estimated that he observed the airplane for about 2 to 3 minutes.501 To signal the flight crew of the other aircraft that they were in sight, the Eastwind captain switched on his own landing lights. As he flicked on his own landing lights, the aircraft that he had been watching exploded into a very large ball of flames.502 According to the statement that he prepared on the evening of the accident, [a]lmost immediately two flaming objects, with flames trailing about 4,000 feet behind them, fell out of the bottom of the ball of flame. Crewmembers (the pilot, copilot, and flight engineer) in a New York Air National Guard (NYANG) HH-60 helicopter, who at the time of the accident were performing instrument approaches about 11 nm from where the main portion of the wreckage fell into the ocean, were interviewed by the FBI shortly after the accident. According to documentation of those interviews, the pilot of the NYANG helicopter stated that he first observed a red streak of light moving very fast from right to left504 and that it was traveling in a gradually descending arcalmost horizontally. He stated that he observed the streak for about 1 to 2 seconds after which he saw an explosion. He described the streak as having the trajectory and image of a shooting star. In an interview with the Safety Boards initial Witness Group (conducted on January 11, 1997), he indicated that he observed a red-orange streak of light moving horizontally for about 3 to 5 seconds in a gradually descending arc that he described as a gentle descending trajectorysimilar to a shooting star. He then saw what he described as an explosion, followed 1 to 2 seconds later by a second and possibly a third explosion.505 He stated that he then saw a fireball, which he described as four times the size of the sun, that hit the oceans surface about 10 seconds after he first saw the fireball.506 The HH-60 pilot indicated that the fireball followed the same trajectory as the streak. According to the witness documents, the pilot stated that he had no idea what it was and that he never saw anything that he identified as an airplane. The witness documents indicated that the copilot and flight engineer from the HH-60 stated that their first observation of the event was of flaming debris at an estimated altitude of 4,000 to 5,000 feet and that this flaming debris hit the water about 8 seconds after they first spotted it. According to the witness documents, the copilot stated that, although he did not remember it on the evening of the accident, the next day he remembered seeing an object streaking from his left to his right just before the appearance of the fireball. He characterized this object as being like an incendiary device or a pyrotechnic. He stated that he then saw a succession of three explosions, each longer than the last. According to the NAWC-WD ballistics/warhead testing expert, although sometypes of damage inflicted by warheads can be caused by other events524 high-velocity fragment penetrations are unique to explosive events and give investigators a conclusive method of identifying these encounters when they occur. Previous testing on both commercial and military aircraft has shown that even with small shoulder-launched weapons, high-velocity fragmentation damage to the aircraft will exist over large areas of the target.Based on previous testing performed by the military and [FAA], it is inconceivable that a warhead could have detonated in or near the fuselage without leaving evidence of high-velocity fragmentation damage somewhere on the recovered wreckage. NAWC-WD also performed infrared signature measurements of 747s on approach to a commercial airport to identify the most likely tracking points for a shoulder-launched missile. According to the NAWC-WD report, infrared seekers on shoulder-launched missiles typically aim for hot spots, such as engine exhausts or inlets. The NAWC-WD infrared measurements showed that the four engines and the underside of the fuselage where the air conditioning pack bay is located (under the CWT) were the hot spots on the 747. The NAWC-WD report indicated that its experts observed no evidence of high-velocity fragmentation damage on the accident airplane. Specifically, the report indicated that no such damage was observed on the accident airplanes engines or air conditioning pack components. The NAWC-WD report concluded the following: No conclusive evidence of missile impacts exists on any of the recovered wreckage of TWA flight 800. No evidence of high-velocity fragment impacts exists, which indicates a live warhead did not detonate within or near the exterior of the aircraft....The possibility that a shoulder-launched missile was launched at TWA flight 800, failed to intercept it, self-destructed in close proximity,[525] and initiated the breakup of the aircraft is highly improbable. in the datk a missile launch with motor lit would be visible at 12 miles until the motor was out |
|
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Okay. Let's roll with your theory TWA800 was somehow within range of a stinger. Where is the evidence of a missile detonation? No metal perforation patterns on the recovered fuselage hint at a near proximity high velocity explosion/detonation. Were you on the recovery team or were you doing analysis back at the hanger? Or did you just read an excerpt of an 'official' report in the media? I'm not saying it was a SAM...I have no idea...but I also know that other than the folks who were fishing debris out of the water, and the forensic folks doing the physical analysis, everything else is 2nd hand information at best. A lot of effort went in to discrediting eye witnesses. Despite the fact that a number of completely objective observants all reported seeing similar things...like a fire climbing in the sky up toward the plane....prior to the explosion...all official sources deny this was possible. Did all those eye witnesses 'mis-remember'? Did a bunch of folks with nothing to gain by doing so (and no prior communication with each other) all make up the exact same story? If there was some physical phenomena that resulted in what those people observed, why hasn't it be replicated? I'm not saying that the official findings aren't possible...sure....I suppose an electric short in proximity to thousands of gallons of jet fuel could make a pretty big bang...and if there were no eye witnesses claiming they saw a rocket flying upward toward the plane...and if the NTSB quietly made the determination without all the hype and pressure on silencing other possible reasons, it might be believable. In truth, I have no clue what happened that night. I can only look at the probabilities of the various hypotheses. That said, I think its more likely that a bad actor was responsible than a faulty electrical circuit. So show us the evidence.... I'm not even discounting a bomb or other nefarious means to take down the aircraft. But a few select ARF retreads that keep going on about A US MANPADS weapon system taking down an aircraft flying well above the max ceiling from a US warship is pants on head retarded. A few folks in this thread need evaluated... Well....thats kinda the thing...there is no evidence...in any direction....just supposition and a whole lot of assumption based on calculations and likely correlation. I would be shocked if this was an 'accident'. The whole 'Navy training gone wrong' is ridiculous. And, at the same time, the short circuit seems like an incredible long shot. Bad actor seems far more plausible, and explains why so many agencies drove the investigation in so many directions. I have no idea what took that plane out of the sky, but I think its unlikely that it was a simple mechanical failure, and even more unlikely that the USN fucked up. My guess...some rogue actor took out the plane and there were enough reasons that folks in power decided its was better to white wash it all than it was to be forthcoming. No conspiracy....no clandestine act....just an attack by a rogue actor and a decision to keep that hidden from the public. exactly The problem with any govt investigation is they are essentially investigating themselves FBI: did we miss a terror plot? Do we need to manufacture evidence of attack to up our budget? Did we just fuck up the olympics/election/travel industry? NTSB / FAA: did we miss a design or maintenance or training issue? CIA: did we pay for that manpad? Did we buy that yacht? Navy: oi mate, not me, i never shoot shit after bedtime, everybody knows the navy can’t keep a secret, we drink lots Bullshit. FBI fucked up everything in the 1990s. The CIA is literally paid to lie and you have them make a filmstrip based on complete bullshit calcs? Derp derp US Mil never shoots manpads at night as part of either operations or routine training. Even though a single 21 year old high school graduate pulls the trigger, accidents and fuckuos CANNOT happen. Any time a US marine anywhere on earf pops off a stinger, klaxons sound and any current or former enlisted Mil is instantly awakened from slumber and goes to quarters (even coasties and merch marines) Derp derp CIA: we never lie and we never gave thousands of manpads to goatfuckers and we mos def never asked congress for $65 million dollars to buy some back, ignore 255 witnesses, they were all on LSD Derp derp China Lake: we looked in the user manual for all US and foreign manpads and they simply cannot go above 10k feet, and a ten year old dud simply could not have hit anywhere in the 2% of the aircraft we didnt recover and punch a hole in it impacting at 1500mph, and if that happened it could not have generated any sparks Attached File Darker Attached File Darker Attached File Darker Attached File Darker Attached File Charlie Murphy Attached File OMG you guys nobody ever shoots a manpad at night or it would wake up the entire navy and everybody would have to write a billion page report you guys this never happens (Hint: any training that happens when a camera is around happens lots more when no camera is around. ) |
|
Thought exercise for those who say it absolutely could not be a US mil shootdown:
Who owns more manpads than anyone else in the world? Who shoots more manpads than anyone else? Who shoots more conus or in coastal US waters? Has the military ever lied about a training accident? Has the military ever lied about a manpad training accident? Has the FBI ever gone on record using manpads (inert) in a sting operation conus? Has the FBI ever intercepted manpads destined for conus? |
|
Quoted: The problem with any govt investigation is they are essentially investigating themselves FBI: did we miss a terror plot? Do we need to manufacture evidence of attack to up our budget? Did we just fuck up the olympics/election/travel industry? NTSB / FAA: did we miss a design or maintenance or training issue? CIA: did we pay for that manpad? Did we buy that yacht? Navy: oi mate, not me, i never shoot shit after bedtime, everybody knows the navy can’t keep a secret, we drink lots Bullshit. FBI fucked up everything in the 1990s. The CIA is literally paid to lie and you have them make a filmstrip based on complete bullshit calcs? Derp derp US Mil never shoots manpads at night as part of either operations or routine training. Even though a single 21 year old high school graduate pulls the trigger, accidents and fuckuos CANNOT happen. Any time a US marine anywhere on earf pops off a stinger, klaxons sound and any current or former enlisted Mil is instantly awakened from slumber and goes to quarters (even coasties and merch marines) Derp derp CIA: we never lie and we never gave thousands of manpads to goatfuckers and we mos def never asked congress for $65 million dollars to buy some back, ignore 255 witnesses, they were all on LSD Derp derp China Lake: we looked in the user manual for all US and foreign manpads and they simply cannot go above 10k feet, and a ten year old dud simply could not have hit anywhere in the 2% of the aircraft we didnt recover and punch a hole in it impacting at 1500mph, and if that happened it could not have generated any sparks https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/239441/96CBD4D3-2C4D-4A89-9F0A-1C76F28D1082_jpe-2018890.JPG Darker https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/239441/61BF3659-8282-42EA-97D9-17942DAD265A_jpe-2018892.JPG Darker https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/239441/4DD80B44-3E22-4B38-9C18-50A2BD8B4AAB_jpe-2018893.JPG Darker https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/239441/CC01735D-9458-4E40-B63A-0B0361BA84C4_jpe-2018894.JPG Darker https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/239441/D6B0C278-745E-4E0B-9F4C-FF31C9BDF0C4_jpe-2018896.JPG Charlie Murphy https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/239441/2DAA4101-5FA1-4F0C-B965-B202466541E8_jpe-2018897.JPG OMG you guys nobody ever shoots a manpad at night or it would wake up the entire navy and everybody would have to write a billion page report you guys this never happens (Hint: any training that happens when a camera is around happens lots more when no camera is around. ) View Quote You’re still making “pants on head retarded” claims about it being a stinger? |
|
Quoted: in the datk a missile launch with motor lit would be visible at 12 miles until the motor was out View Quote Rare Video of Stinger Missile Fired During Night Against Aircrafts by US Marines Even a tomahawks initial stage is pretty faint after a couple seconds. U.S. Navy Destroyer launches Tomahawk cruise missiles at NIGHT I think it would be very very tough to observe a stinger miles away even at night. A medium range or larger SAM would definitely have a more visible night signature at range. But then you get into the whole logistics/emplacement issues. Patriot SAM engage Scud Missiles over Israel during Operation Desert Storm |
|
Quoted: You’re still making “pants on head retarded” claims about it being a stinger? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: The problem with any govt investigation is they are essentially investigating themselves FBI: did we miss a terror plot? Do we need to manufacture evidence of attack to up our budget? Did we just fuck up the olympics/election/travel industry? NTSB / FAA: did we miss a design or maintenance or training issue? CIA: did we pay for that manpad? Did we buy that yacht? Navy: oi mate, not me, i never shoot shit after bedtime, everybody knows the navy can’t keep a secret, we drink lots Bullshit. FBI fucked up everything in the 1990s. The CIA is literally paid to lie and you have them make a filmstrip based on complete bullshit calcs? Derp derp US Mil never shoots manpads at night as part of either operations or routine training. Even though a single 21 year old high school graduate pulls the trigger, accidents and fuckuos CANNOT happen. Any time a US marine anywhere on earf pops off a stinger, klaxons sound and any current or former enlisted Mil is instantly awakened from slumber and goes to quarters (even coasties and merch marines) Derp derp CIA: we never lie and we never gave thousands of manpads to goatfuckers and we mos def never asked congress for $65 million dollars to buy some back, ignore 255 witnesses, they were all on LSD Derp derp China Lake: we looked in the user manual for all US and foreign manpads and they simply cannot go above 10k feet, and a ten year old dud simply could not have hit anywhere in the 2% of the aircraft we didnt recover and punch a hole in it impacting at 1500mph, and if that happened it could not have generated any sparks https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/239441/96CBD4D3-2C4D-4A89-9F0A-1C76F28D1082_jpe-2018890.JPG Darker https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/239441/61BF3659-8282-42EA-97D9-17942DAD265A_jpe-2018892.JPG Darker https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/239441/4DD80B44-3E22-4B38-9C18-50A2BD8B4AAB_jpe-2018893.JPG Darker https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/239441/CC01735D-9458-4E40-B63A-0B0361BA84C4_jpe-2018894.JPG Darker https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/239441/D6B0C278-745E-4E0B-9F4C-FF31C9BDF0C4_jpe-2018896.JPG Charlie Murphy https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/239441/2DAA4101-5FA1-4F0C-B965-B202466541E8_jpe-2018897.JPG OMG you guys nobody ever shoots a manpad at night or it would wake up the entire navy and everybody would have to write a billion page report you guys this never happens (Hint: any training that happens when a camera is around happens lots more when no camera is around. ) You’re still making “pants on head retarded” claims about it being a stinger? Yes, the concept that it was a manpad is so retarded that it is literally the only class of missile that the best weapon experts in the US govt even considered in their official investigation. It is so preposterous that the FBI had 20 guys on scallop boats 24 hours a day for seven months looking for batteries and booster motors. Clearly, the idea is preposterous. And they simply cannot hit anything at 13700ft, they hit the vanallen belt or a cloud of starlings at 10k Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File Donaldson got a hold of the China Lake sims and his brother published them after he died. The tier 1 missile is an early-gen stinger and the bigger missile represents a modern foreign manpad with longer and higher envelope. Attached File Attached File |
|
Quoted: I can't find a good dark only vid but under NVGs the stinger motor gets real dark real quick pretty close to the launch team. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtTGZLiWF8A Even a tomahawks initial stage is pretty faint after a couple seconds. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLJOGrI6uo8 I think it would be very very tough to observe a stinger miles away even at night. A medium range or larger SAM would definitely have a more visible night signature at range. But then you get into the whole logistics/emplacement issues. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZ73WxAiPWw View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: in the datk a missile launch with motor lit would be visible at 12 miles until the motor was out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtTGZLiWF8A Even a tomahawks initial stage is pretty faint after a couple seconds. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLJOGrI6uo8 I think it would be very very tough to observe a stinger miles away even at night. A medium range or larger SAM would definitely have a more visible night signature at range. But then you get into the whole logistics/emplacement issues. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZ73WxAiPWw it wasnt a manpad there are no logistics problems with a mounted system on a fishing trawler |
|
Quoted: it wasnt a manpad there are no logistics problems with a mounted system on a fishing trawler View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: in the datk a missile launch with motor lit would be visible at 12 miles until the motor was out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtTGZLiWF8A Even a tomahawks initial stage is pretty faint after a couple seconds. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLJOGrI6uo8 I think it would be very very tough to observe a stinger miles away even at night. A medium range or larger SAM would definitely have a more visible night signature at range. But then you get into the whole logistics/emplacement issues. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZ73WxAiPWw it wasnt a manpad there are no logistics problems with a mounted system on a fishing trawler That is certainly true. To me the main arguments for a manpad are: 1) minimum amount of physical damage to aircraft, especially if a dud 2) minimum amount of money and personnel (easiest to lose track of, easiest to control witnesses) 3) most proliferated (US and foreign sources including stingers, soviet versions, chinese, etc) 4) most proliferated within CONUS ( every branch and SOF has them, SOF and CIA probably have the buybacks or ground-off serials lol) 5) generates the least missile detritus So, smallish iranian missile on a yacht, sure, but there are thousands of manpads on navy vessels and coastal bases at all times. I am playing odds. One guy pulls the trigger, one guy watches him do it. Pretty hard to have a lower signature. ETA goatfuckers would also have an easier time buying and transporting very small missiles. Here is a scenario: I am shooting a manpad up at night. Maybe i am a terrorist on a medium size boat, maybe I am a seal in a small boat on a training mission. I think i am shooting at a small plane / target drone / P3 flying low altitude. I am actually shooting at a huge fucking plane at 13700ft. The trainer is inert (or my old ass cia manpad is a dud). It flies all the way up and knocks a three inch hole in a fuel tank. 250 people see it happen. Someone in navy / cia / fbi knows the whole story, and most people only know part of the story. The guy who pulled the trigger knows and decides he doesnt want to get blamed for killing a french class trip. Of the two theories ( terrorist or SOF training), both are possible. Either one could keep a secret. There are unidentified radar tracks of boats, but there are witnesses who saw military plane, surface vessels, and subsurface wake. Nobody saw a guy fucking a camel. |
|
Quoted: Yes, the concept that it was a manpad is so retarded that it is literally the only class of missile that the best weapon experts in the US govt even considered in their official investigation. It is so preposterous that the FBI had 20 guys on scallop boats 24 hours a day for seven months looking for batteries and booster motors. Clearly, the idea is preposterous. And they simply cannot hit anything at 13700ft, they hit the vanallen belt or a cloud of starlings at 10k https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/239441/46CDC173-6731-490B-A0C1-09C0BFEF8D6D_jpe-2018927.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/239441/3936F070-E27A-4393-96CE-25381274F775_jpe-2018928.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/239441/67C0A5AE-015B-44B3-BADD-DF7A908B3521_jpe-2018930.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/239441/16186131-2975-4963-BE34-11A39110FC19_jpe-2018933.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/239441/A4736928-3884-4E41-82BB-891625A3AB43_jpe-2018936.JPG Donaldson got a hold of the China Lake sims and his brother published them after he died. The tier 1 missile is an early-gen stinger and the bigger missile represents a modern foreign manpad with longer and higher envelope. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/239441/DEB1B24F-6E92-4761-8958-922AC66F60C1_jpe-2018941.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/239441/74DDF3A2-2A9C-4EDE-824B-22F658C02738_jpe-2018943.JPG View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The problem with any govt investigation is they are essentially investigating themselves FBI: did we miss a terror plot? Do we need to manufacture evidence of attack to up our budget? Did we just fuck up the olympics/election/travel industry? NTSB / FAA: did we miss a design or maintenance or training issue? CIA: did we pay for that manpad? Did we buy that yacht? Navy: oi mate, not me, i never shoot shit after bedtime, everybody knows the navy can’t keep a secret, we drink lots Bullshit. FBI fucked up everything in the 1990s. The CIA is literally paid to lie and you have them make a filmstrip based on complete bullshit calcs? Derp derp US Mil never shoots manpads at night as part of either operations or routine training. Even though a single 21 year old high school graduate pulls the trigger, accidents and fuckuos CANNOT happen. Any time a US marine anywhere on earf pops off a stinger, klaxons sound and any current or former enlisted Mil is instantly awakened from slumber and goes to quarters (even coasties and merch marines) Derp derp CIA: we never lie and we never gave thousands of manpads to goatfuckers and we mos def never asked congress for $65 million dollars to buy some back, ignore 255 witnesses, they were all on LSD Derp derp China Lake: we looked in the user manual for all US and foreign manpads and they simply cannot go above 10k feet, and a ten year old dud simply could not have hit anywhere in the 2% of the aircraft we didnt recover and punch a hole in it impacting at 1500mph, and if that happened it could not have generated any sparks https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/239441/96CBD4D3-2C4D-4A89-9F0A-1C76F28D1082_jpe-2018890.JPG Darker https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/239441/61BF3659-8282-42EA-97D9-17942DAD265A_jpe-2018892.JPG Darker https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/239441/4DD80B44-3E22-4B38-9C18-50A2BD8B4AAB_jpe-2018893.JPG Darker https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/239441/CC01735D-9458-4E40-B63A-0B0361BA84C4_jpe-2018894.JPG Darker https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/239441/D6B0C278-745E-4E0B-9F4C-FF31C9BDF0C4_jpe-2018896.JPG Charlie Murphy https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/239441/2DAA4101-5FA1-4F0C-B965-B202466541E8_jpe-2018897.JPG OMG you guys nobody ever shoots a manpad at night or it would wake up the entire navy and everybody would have to write a billion page report you guys this never happens (Hint: any training that happens when a camera is around happens lots more when no camera is around. ) You’re still making “pants on head retarded” claims about it being a stinger? Yes, the concept that it was a manpad is so retarded that it is literally the only class of missile that the best weapon experts in the US govt even considered in their official investigation. It is so preposterous that the FBI had 20 guys on scallop boats 24 hours a day for seven months looking for batteries and booster motors. Clearly, the idea is preposterous. And they simply cannot hit anything at 13700ft, they hit the vanallen belt or a cloud of starlings at 10k https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/239441/46CDC173-6731-490B-A0C1-09C0BFEF8D6D_jpe-2018927.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/239441/3936F070-E27A-4393-96CE-25381274F775_jpe-2018928.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/239441/67C0A5AE-015B-44B3-BADD-DF7A908B3521_jpe-2018930.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/239441/16186131-2975-4963-BE34-11A39110FC19_jpe-2018933.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/239441/A4736928-3884-4E41-82BB-891625A3AB43_jpe-2018936.JPG Donaldson got a hold of the China Lake sims and his brother published them after he died. The tier 1 missile is an early-gen stinger and the bigger missile represents a modern foreign manpad with longer and higher envelope. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/239441/DEB1B24F-6E92-4761-8958-922AC66F60C1_jpe-2018941.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/239441/74DDF3A2-2A9C-4EDE-824B-22F658C02738_jpe-2018943.JPG Confirmation bias is an ugly beast. |
|
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The problem with any govt investigation is they are essentially investigating themselves FBI: did we miss a terror plot? Do we need to manufacture evidence of attack to up our budget? Did we just fuck up the olympics/election/travel industry? NTSB / FAA: did we miss a design or maintenance or training issue? CIA: did we pay for that manpad? Did we buy that yacht? Navy: oi mate, not me, i never shoot shit after bedtime, everybody knows the navy can’t keep a secret, we drink lots Bullshit. FBI fucked up everything in the 1990s. The CIA is literally paid to lie and you have them make a filmstrip based on complete bullshit calcs? Derp derp US Mil never shoots manpads at night as part of either operations or routine training. Even though a single 21 year old high school graduate pulls the trigger, accidents and fuckuos CANNOT happen. Any time a US marine anywhere on earf pops off a stinger, klaxons sound and any current or former enlisted Mil is instantly awakened from slumber and goes to quarters (even coasties and merch marines) Derp derp CIA: we never lie and we never gave thousands of manpads to goatfuckers and we mos def never asked congress for $65 million dollars to buy some back, ignore 255 witnesses, they were all on LSD Derp derp China Lake: we looked in the user manual for all US and foreign manpads and they simply cannot go above 10k feet, and a ten year old dud simply could not have hit anywhere in the 2% of the aircraft we didnt recover and punch a hole in it impacting at 1500mph, and if that happened it could not have generated any sparks https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/239441/96CBD4D3-2C4D-4A89-9F0A-1C76F28D1082_jpe-2018890.JPG Darker https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/239441/61BF3659-8282-42EA-97D9-17942DAD265A_jpe-2018892.JPG Darker https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/239441/4DD80B44-3E22-4B38-9C18-50A2BD8B4AAB_jpe-2018893.JPG Darker https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/239441/CC01735D-9458-4E40-B63A-0B0361BA84C4_jpe-2018894.JPG Darker https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/239441/D6B0C278-745E-4E0B-9F4C-FF31C9BDF0C4_jpe-2018896.JPG Charlie Murphy https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/239441/2DAA4101-5FA1-4F0C-B965-B202466541E8_jpe-2018897.JPG OMG you guys nobody ever shoots a manpad at night or it would wake up the entire navy and everybody would have to write a billion page report you guys this never happens (Hint: any training that happens when a camera is around happens lots more when no camera is around. ) You’re still making “pants on head retarded” claims about it being a stinger? Yes, the concept that it was a manpad is so retarded that it is literally the only class of missile that the best weapon experts in the US govt even considered in their official investigation. It is so preposterous that the FBI had 20 guys on scallop boats 24 hours a day for seven months looking for batteries and booster motors. Clearly, the idea is preposterous. And they simply cannot hit anything at 13700ft, they hit the vanallen belt or a cloud of starlings at 10k https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/239441/46CDC173-6731-490B-A0C1-09C0BFEF8D6D_jpe-2018927.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/239441/3936F070-E27A-4393-96CE-25381274F775_jpe-2018928.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/239441/67C0A5AE-015B-44B3-BADD-DF7A908B3521_jpe-2018930.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/239441/16186131-2975-4963-BE34-11A39110FC19_jpe-2018933.JPGhttps://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/239441/A4736928-3884-4E41-82BB-891625A3AB43_jpe-2018936.JPG Donaldson got a hold of the China Lake sims and his brother published them after he died. The tier 1 missile is an early-gen stinger and the bigger missile represents a modern foreign manpad with longer and higher envelope. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/239441/DEB1B24F-6E92-4761-8958-922AC66F60C1_jpe-2018941.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/239441/74DDF3A2-2A9C-4EDE-824B-22F658C02738_jpe-2018943.JPG Confirmation bias is an ugly beast. Sure, could easily be confirmation bias on my part as well as FBI goons and china lake eggheads. I never saw anyone investigate military training use of manpads. FBI assumed manpad==terrorists Conspiracy theorists assume it was a big missile test by Navy No one talks about routine training / routine duty manpads. Some 20 year old kid is sitting on a deck somewhere right now looking for incoming aircraft with his finger on the trigger of a manpad. We even had one pop into this thread, had t-shirts to prove it. He probably fired more manpads than osama bin laden. |
|
Quoted: That is certainly true. To me the main arguments for a manpad are: 1) minimum amount of physical damage to aircraft, especially if a dud 2) minimum amount of money and personnel (easiest to lose track of, easiest to control witnesses) 3) most proliferated (US and foreign sources including stingers, soviet versions, chinese, etc) 4) most proliferated within CONUS ( every branch and SOF has them, SOF and CIA probably have the buybacks or ground-off serials lol) 5) generates the least missile detritus So, smallish iranian missile on a yacht, sure, but there are thousands of manpads on navy vessels and coastal bases at all times. I am playing odds. One guy pulls the trigger, one guy watches him do it. Pretty hard to have a lower signature. ETA goatfuckers would also have an easier time buying and transporting very small missiles. Here is a scenario: I am shooting a manpad up at night. Maybe i am a terrorist on a medium size boat, maybe I am a seal in a small boat on a training mission. I think i am shooting at a small plane / target drone / P3 flying low altitude. I am actually shooting at a huge fucking plane at 13700ft. The trainer is inert (or my old ass cia manpad is a dud). It flies all the way up and knocks a three inch hole in a fuel tank. 250 people see it happen. Someone in navy / cia / fbi knows the whole story, and most people only know part of the story. The guy who pulled the trigger knows and decides he doesnt want to get blamed for killing a french class trip. Of the two theories ( terrorist or SOF training), both are possible. Either one could keep a secret. There are unidentified radar tracks of boats, but there are witnesses who saw military plane, surface vessels, and subsurface wake. Nobody saw a guy fucking a camel. View Quote First, it's MANPADS. It stands for MAN Portable Air Defense System. No such thing as a manpad. Second, as I have already explained, the idea that "one man pulls the trigger, another man watches" is all that would be involved in a training exercise is completely retarded. Two men don't go shoot guided missiles (or any other military weapons system) by themselves; a whole unit would be involved. They don't just have those missiles sitting around in their unit footprint; an ASP has to issue them. At the end of the training exercise, every single expended missile tube (and any remaining live missiles) have to be turned in. Target drones don't magically appear; specialist workers, military or civilian, have to transport them to the area, set them up, and launch them. Every target drone expended has to be accounted for. High level commanders, as in General Officers, have to sign off on training of this type. High level commanders don't personally review plans for low level unit training; it passes through multiple levels of staff review and subordinate commanders' signatures before it reaches a GO's desk. These staffs would insist on all the usual safety measures involved in shooting SAMs; like issuing a NOTAM to ensure civilian traffic stays out of the area. By the time you account for everyone involved, a simple training exercise involves hundreds or thousands of people. Not one person has ever claimed any such training exercise took place. Ergo, either thousands of people are keeping quiet about the accidental killing of hundreds of Americans (including civilians with no connection to the military who just saw the NOTAM), or it's a really, really silly idea. |
|
Quoted: Sure, could easily be confirmation bias on my part as well as FBI goons and china lake eggheads. I never saw anyone investigate military training use of manpads. FBI assumed manpad==terrorists Conspiracy theorists assume it was a big missile test by Navy No one talks about routine training / routine duty manpads. Some 20 year old kid is sitting on a deck somewhere right now looking for incoming aircraft with his finger on the trigger of a manpad. We even had one pop into this thread, had t-shirts to prove it. He probably fired more manpads than osama bin laden. View Quote Why don’t you ask him if he cruised around in US territorial waters with one sitting across his lap at all times? You assume the armory is like Oprah handing out free MANPADS to everyone who wants one. Meanwhile poor NG soldiers providing support to hurricane relief can’t even get a 30rnd mag of 5.56 for their M16A2. |
|
Quoted: .... Some 20 year old kid is sitting on a deck somewhere right now looking for incoming aircraft with his finger on the trigger of a manpad. ... View Quote No, there isn't. As you cited on page 11, embarked air defense assets are only used in EMERGENCY Defense of the Amphibious Task Force. Embarked Marines standing watch with Stingers would be an extremely unusual event; not the sort of thing likely to be happening right now or off the coast of NYC in 1996. |
|
Quoted: Yes. It is ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE to fire a missile from a Navy ship and not have EVERY person on the ship know it. It is ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE that an entire ships crew, let alone 3 ships crews, plus a P-3 crew, 1000 plus people would not speak a word about shooting down an airliner. The only plauisble explanation, one of the Tic Tac UFOs hit Flight 800 and the government is covering it up because of ETs. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: It's impossible for the US to conduct tests in ways and locations that the Sailors in this thread don't know about? It's impossible for the govt to disappear evidence and construct false narratives? Yes. It is ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE to fire a missile from a Navy ship and not have EVERY person on the ship know it. It is ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE that an entire ships crew, let alone 3 ships crews, plus a P-3 crew, 1000 plus people would not speak a word about shooting down an airliner. The only plauisble explanation, one of the Tic Tac UFOs hit Flight 800 and the government is covering it up because of ETs. And again, reiterating to the previous poster above: unless you've been involved first-hand with a ship-based SAM launch, it's really hard to convey how fricken loud and dramatic it is. I'll say it again: EVERY swinging dick on the ship, to some degree, would've heard and felt a missile leaving the ship. That said, I can't fathom a scenario where the govt. could get so many squids across multiple vessels and at least one aircraft to be 100% silent about for twenty-five years now. |
|
View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Ballistic missile 6pm, not dark. This shows just how high up the missile must have been; a couple of hundred kilometers at least I heard from people on Twitter starting around 6 p.m. Pacific time Bet there was also a NOTAM issued for the launch. |
|
|
Can't believe this hasn't been recommended yet.
Fictional book but contains a lot of actual non-fiction details which are accurate, interwoven with a funny sarcastic cop story (John Corey, all good DeMille books). Failed To Load Product Data https://smile.amazon.com/dp/0446616621 |
|
I remember the day it happened. We lost over 60 employees on that fight. It was one of the only days that any non revs could travel internationally all summer because of heavy loads.
I knew the ALPA guys who worked the investigation initially, they were subsequently pulled and threatened with jail if they released any information on the cause. Most of the TWA pilots including myself think it was a bomb, not a missile. Remember the first Trade Center bombing took place around that time also, maybe a coincidence maybe not. Chance of it being a missile is extremely slim. |
|
Here is a good one, the Firebee Fax
A nice lady happened to have a fax number with two digits transposed from the FBI fax at the investigation site. She received two faxes meant for FBI. One was some bullshit background check. The other was from a Teledyne Ryan employee to another Teledyne Ryan employee saying they recovered part of a Firebee target drone at the crash site. The lady went on record with local newspaper. She DGAF and when threatened by FBI by phone she told them to fuck off. ———— Post Edited - Added spoiler tags around wall of text - Click to view -by brass Click To View Spoiler Newsday
Fax Gives Glimpse of Crash Investigation By W. Michael Pitcher Official documents faxed mistakenly to a Riverhead resident recently show that the Federal Bureau of Investigation two months ago was investigating whether pieces of debris found among the wreckage of TWA Fight 800 were the remnants of an aerial target drone used by the U.S. Navy and other armed services training exercises. The FBI apparently has since determined that the wreckage was not from the aerial target. The information came to light after a fax meant for the FBI's facility in Calverton was sent to Riverhead resident Dede Muma, who forwarded a copy of the fax to this newspaper. The Calverton FBI facility was established to investigate the July 17, 1996 crash of the Boeing 747 off Moriches Inlet that killed all 230 people on board. The fax was meant to be sent from an employee at Teledyne Ryan Aeronautical to his superior, who was on assignment at the Calverton FBI facility. The fax shows a diagram of what appears to be a missile, along with a breakdown of its tail section and a parts list. The fax was sent by Teledyne employee Erich Hittinger to Walt Hamilton of Teledyne, via FBI agent Ken Maxwell. Teledyne is based in San Diego and, among other things, manufactures armaments. The object shown in the fax was identified this week by Jane's Information Services in Alexandria, Virginia as a Teledyne Ryan BQM-34 Firebee I, an air or surface-launched recoverable aerial target. The Firebee has a wing span of 13 feet, and is approximately 23 feet long. It can travel at speeds up to 635 knots with a maximum range of just under 700 miles. The targets are used all over the world, including within the military "warning areas" that come as close as about 10 nautical miles off Moriches Inlet in the Atlantic Ocean. The Navy practices shooting down drones within the warning areas. Theories that a missile downed TWA Flight 800 began immediately after the crash when many witnesses reported seeing a streak of light arcing up toward the plane before it exploded. One theory, popular on the Internet, is that U.S. Navy forces were conducting exercises south of Long Island the night of the crash and sent one or more targets--like the Firebee--aloft. The theory proposes that a missile fired at that target from either a plane or submarine instead locked on to the TWA 747 and brought plan down. The FBI has publicly dismissed Mr. Salinger's theory, but says it continues to investigate all possibilities and has not singled out any cause--missile, bomb or mechanical failure--as the cause of the crash. FBI spokesman Joseph Valiquette refused to comment on the recent Teledyne Fax and any other aspect of the agency's investigation when contacted on Wednesday. Former press secretary to President John F. Kennedy Pierre Salanger created an uproar this year when he announced that he had proof Flight 800 was downed by an errant missile that came from inside one of the warning areas. Mr. Hittinger said this week that the FBI had contacted Teledyne Ryan because FBI investigators suspected that orange pieces of debris found among the TWA Flight 800 wreckage might be parts of a Firebee. The Firebee is "95 percent" international orange in color, he said. Mr. Hittinger said Mr. Hamilton flew to the Calverton FBI facility and examined the debris. Mr. Hittinger sent the fax to Mr. Hamilton to aid him in his examination of the debris. "He (Mr. Hamilton) said it wasn't from our Firebee," said Mr. Hittinger . "It was all put to bed some time ago." Mr. Hamilton was on vacation until July 28 and was unavailable for comment. Ms. Muma received the fax from the FBI on May 13. She received another fax meant for the FBI's Calverton office July 10. That fax was apparently a background check on a potential federal appointee. The problem is a simple matter of numbers--Ms. Muma's fax number is 369 -4310 and the FBI's fax number is 369-4301. Ms. Muma said she called the FBI when she received the first fax. She said the agency's initial reaction was "Oh, s---." After the initial shock wore off, Ms. Muma was told to "send it along to them, and destroy the original." She said she asked what would happen if she didn't do so, and was told "we'll have o investigate you." Unfazed by the threat of investigation, "I told them its D-E-E M-U-M-A , Roanoke Avenue, Riverhead, the farm with the buffalo," said Ms. Muma. She is married to Riverhead farmer and real estate entrepreneur Ed Tuccio, who has about 15 buffalo at his Roanoke Avenue farm. Ms. Muma was surprised to receive the missile information over her fax, but she said she just figured the FBI was covering all the bases in its investigation of the TWA Flight 800 crash. She said it was probably just "due diligence" in checking out every possibility that prompted the FBI to get the information from Teledyne-Ryan. When the second fax arrived, Ms. Muma called the FBI again. This time, she said, the reaction was a pained groan. The error on the first fax was made by someone at Teledyne-Ryan, but the error on the second was made by the FBI--the second fax was sent from Special Agent (S.A.) Matt Womble to SA Paul Raimondi. The second fax is designated "confidential" and is apparently a background check on a potential appointee. The "appointee" is never named, but he is reputed to have an unimpeachable reputation and be well qualified "for a position of trust and confidence with the U.S. government." Among other things, the memo says that the appointee "can maintain confidences and secrets and exert appropriate discretion." "Unlike the FBI," opined Ms. Muma. The opinions on the unnamed appointee came from one Walter Lewis of Dillon Reid and Company on Madison Avenue in New York City, an investment banking firm. Mr. Lewis's secretary said he would have no comment on the matter. Before sending the second fax to the FBI's real fax number, Ms. Muma scribbled "From your branch office in Riverhead" across the top of it. Ms. Muma said she felt free to talk about the misdirected fax because "its not a matter of national security." If it was, she said, "I'd die with that." Ms. Muma waits expectantly for her next fax message from the FBI. "I've started the J. Edgar Hover Memorial Library," Ms. Muma joked. C 1997 Southampton Press Publishing Co., Inc. Date on the Firebee "In the mid-1960s, capitalizing on the proven design of their subsonic Firebee 1 remotely piloted vehicle (RPV), Ryan developed a supersonic version with which the Navy and Air Force could train and test new weapon systems. The Air Force ordered 99 BQM-34Fs and, by February 1974, had started using them. The BQM-34F was rocket-boosted from a short rail ground launcher or dropped from a DC-130 or -E aircraft modified to carry up to four RPVs. They were normally recovered with the Mid-Air Retrieval System (MARS), which included a specially equipped helicopter that "snatched" the target while it descended under its 80 ft. diameter parachute. If the BQM-34 landed in water, it could float for several hours until it was recovered. The BQM-34F carried an assortment of electronic devices to enhance its radar image, permit flying as low as 50 feet, control it from up to 200 miles away, "score" the missiles fired at it, and telemeter information to and from it during flight. The Firebee on display, 69-3374 was retired from active service with the 6514th Test Squadron, Hill AFB, Utah, in August 1978. SPECIFICATIONS... Span: 9 ft. 8 in.... Length: 29 ft. 2 in.... Height: 5 ft. 7 in.... Weight: 2,460 lbs. maximum ...Armament: None ...Engine: Continental YJ69-406 turbojet with 1,920 lbs. thrust ...PERFORMANCE ...Maximum speed: Mach 1.5 dash (for 4 minutes at 60,000 feet) ...Endurance: 73 minutes" ...(source: United States Air Force Museum) Were firebee drones ever used as Stinger targets? As a matter of fact there is youtube footage of this very thing from 1975!! Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File F 1748 0001 Stinger Missile Development March 20, 1975 Firebee Target Movie was donated by Ryan to San Diego museum in 1990’s Title F 1748 0001 Stinger Missile Development March 20, 1975 Firebee Target Contributing Institution San Diego Air and Space Museum Library and Archives Collection Moving Image Collection Rights Information Please contact the contributing institution for more information regarding the copyright status of this object. Description Film donated by the Ryan Aeronautical Company to the San Diego Air and Space Museum in the 1990s. From the archives of the San Diego Air and Space Museum http://www.sandiegoairandspace.org/research/ Please do not use for commercial purposes without permission. Type moving image Subject San Diego Air and Space Museum Ryan Aeronautical San Diego FIM-92 Stinger |
|
Quoted: First, it's MANPADS. It stands for MAN Portable Air Defense System. No such thing as a manpad. Second, as I have already explained, the idea that "one man pulls the trigger, another man watches" is all that would be involved in a training exercise is completely retarded. Two men don't go shoot guided missiles (or any other military weapons system) by themselves; a whole unit would be involved. They don't just have those missiles sitting around in their unit footprint; an ASP has to issue them. At the end of the training exercise, every single expended missile tube (and any remaining live missiles) have to be turned in. Target drones don't magically appear; specialist workers, military or civilian, have to transport them to the area, set them up, and launch them. Every target drone expended has to be accounted for. High level commanders, as in General Officers, have to sign off on training of this type. High level commanders don't personally review plans for low level unit training; it passes through multiple levels of staff review and subordinate commanders' signatures before it reaches a GO's desk. These staffs would insist on all the usual safety measures involved in shooting SAMs; like issuing a NOTAM to ensure civilian traffic stays out of the area. By the time you account for everyone involved, a simple training exercise involves hundreds or thousands of people. Not one person has ever claimed any such training exercise took place. Ergo, either thousands of people are keeping quiet about the accidental killing of hundreds of Americans (including civilians with no connection to the military who just saw the NOTAM), or it's a really, really silly idea. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: That is certainly true. To me the main arguments for a manpad are: 1) minimum amount of physical damage to aircraft, especially if a dud 2) minimum amount of money and personnel (easiest to lose track of, easiest to control witnesses) 3) most proliferated (US and foreign sources including stingers, soviet versions, chinese, etc) 4) most proliferated within CONUS ( every branch and SOF has them, SOF and CIA probably have the buybacks or ground-off serials lol) 5) generates the least missile detritus So, smallish iranian missile on a yacht, sure, but there are thousands of manpads on navy vessels and coastal bases at all times. I am playing odds. One guy pulls the trigger, one guy watches him do it. Pretty hard to have a lower signature. ETA goatfuckers would also have an easier time buying and transporting very small missiles. Here is a scenario: I am shooting a manpad up at night. Maybe i am a terrorist on a medium size boat, maybe I am a seal in a small boat on a training mission. I think i am shooting at a small plane / target drone / P3 flying low altitude. I am actually shooting at a huge fucking plane at 13700ft. The trainer is inert (or my old ass cia manpad is a dud). It flies all the way up and knocks a three inch hole in a fuel tank. 250 people see it happen. Someone in navy / cia / fbi knows the whole story, and most people only know part of the story. The guy who pulled the trigger knows and decides he doesnt want to get blamed for killing a french class trip. Of the two theories ( terrorist or SOF training), both are possible. Either one could keep a secret. There are unidentified radar tracks of boats, but there are witnesses who saw military plane, surface vessels, and subsurface wake. Nobody saw a guy fucking a camel. First, it's MANPADS. It stands for MAN Portable Air Defense System. No such thing as a manpad. Second, as I have already explained, the idea that "one man pulls the trigger, another man watches" is all that would be involved in a training exercise is completely retarded. Two men don't go shoot guided missiles (or any other military weapons system) by themselves; a whole unit would be involved. They don't just have those missiles sitting around in their unit footprint; an ASP has to issue them. At the end of the training exercise, every single expended missile tube (and any remaining live missiles) have to be turned in. Target drones don't magically appear; specialist workers, military or civilian, have to transport them to the area, set them up, and launch them. Every target drone expended has to be accounted for. High level commanders, as in General Officers, have to sign off on training of this type. High level commanders don't personally review plans for low level unit training; it passes through multiple levels of staff review and subordinate commanders' signatures before it reaches a GO's desk. These staffs would insist on all the usual safety measures involved in shooting SAMs; like issuing a NOTAM to ensure civilian traffic stays out of the area. By the time you account for everyone involved, a simple training exercise involves hundreds or thousands of people. Not one person has ever claimed any such training exercise took place. Ergo, either thousands of people are keeping quiet about the accidental killing of hundreds of Americans (including civilians with no connection to the military who just saw the NOTAM), or it's a really, really silly idea. Per my previous post, one Teledyne Ryan employee sent a fax intended for another Teledyne Ryan employee care of Calverton FBI saying “here is the parts schematic for the firebee drone parts you think you found” So maybe that is better evidence that a target drone was there and a dumb shit sent a wrong number fax? |
|
Quoted: Per my previous post, one Teledyne Ryan employee sent a fax intended for another Teledyne Ryan employee care of Calverton FBI saying “here is the parts schematic for the firebee drone parts you think you found” So maybe that is better evidence that a target drone was there and a dumb shit sent a wrong number fax? View Quote Or maybe the drone parts were there from a previous test in the area... |
|
Quoted: I was a newly-minted 767 First Officer at TWA in the summer of 1996. I knew some of the flight attendants on 800–I had flown international on the L1011 before. A very good friend flew Flt. 800 almost exclusively. That night, she was working Flt. 910 (I believe that’s the number) to Lisbon. They were right behind 800 and saw it go down. 800 hit me in the gut because there was an entire 767 crew deadheading to Rome through Paris. The Rome flight was running late so they jumped on 800. That could have been me. I also had one of my best friends working on the accident investigation with TWA ALPA. He (and others) said they would find a suspicious piece of wreckage and the FBI would immediately confiscate it and it would never be seen again. I was friends with and flew with Capt. Bob Young, eventually the Director of Safety at TWA. Bob was a Navy man (a REAL one, not a ladder climber) to the core. He was smart, tough and honest. His son was a SEAL. The FBI wiretapped his phone and showed up on his doorstep threatening him with prison if he talked about the investigation. He told me on a flight weeks after 800 went down that it was shot down. He looked me dead in the eye and said “it was one of ours”. We had assets all over the place out there that night. SOMETHING was going on. Terry Stacey, who is mentioned for his contribution of removing some of the suspicious wreckage to be analyzed, was hounded by the Feds and threatened with prison. Terry gave me a line check on the MD80 in 92/93. Nice guy. Very much a straight arrow—management type. In other words, he was not a “go rogue” type and he must have been at the end of his rope for risking prison to bring the evidence to light. I hope James Kallstrom is rotting in hell for his role in this abomination. And, I will say, TWA had a lot of financial problems not of their own making, but the people who worked there were top notch. Safety was NEVER compromised—ESPECIALLY in maintenance and flight operations. The ‘exploding fuel tank’ is horseshit. If I thought for a second that 800 was—that there was a scintilla of a chance that it was mechanical, I’d be the first one to challenge the other theories. It was not a mechanical issue. Modern airliners do not “just blow up”. TC View Quote Thank you for sharing this info. |
|
Quoted: Or maybe the drone parts were there from a previous test in the area... View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Per my previous post, one Teledyne Ryan employee sent a fax intended for another Teledyne Ryan employee care of Calverton FBI saying “here is the parts schematic for the firebee drone parts you think you found” So maybe that is better evidence that a target drone was there and a dumb shit sent a wrong number fax? Or maybe the drone parts were there from a previous test in the area... Right. My point exactly. If you find target drone parts it is because someone shot down a target drone nearby. Now, is that likely to be a super secret DARPA one off aegis directed $5M missile or a $40k pissant missile produced in quanties that recently hit 50k units delivered? Which type of missile launch could be kept secret for 25 years, the one crewed by 1000 people on 10 ships or a grunt target practice? We have people like Paul who know their shit saying no way it was a big navy missile. A shitty little missile with only onboard heat seeking and one guy pulling a trigger is a much easier secret to keep. Training happens and training accidents happen, not everything is a giant moonshot. |
|
Article below from Teledyne Ryan “Achiever” newsletter confirms name of employee Walt Hamilton from the fax. Dee Muma is still alive, still lives in the same place, and runs an award winning restaurant.
Article gives 1988 level production numbers for firebees. Both USAF and navy were putting a hurt on some drones. Click To View Spoiler TELEDYNE RYAN AERONAUTICAL ACHIEVER Vol. 5, No. 5 San Diego, California May 1988 New Order For 80 Firebees Expected Teledyne Ryan Aeronautical pro- duction of BQM-34S Firebee aerial target systems is expected to con- tinue well into the 1990s, based on the expected award of a new order for 80 of the jet-powered targets that could come as soon as late June. TRA Director of Firebee Target Operations Walt Hamilton said that the newest contractual docu- ment was being prepared at the Air Force Logistics Center, Robins, AFB, Ga. The new order is expected to call for seven deliveries monthly starting in early 1990. Already de- livered is an initial increment of 87 BQM-34S Firebees since the resumption of production in 1985. Forty-six more from a follow-on order for 80 units had been deliv- ered by May, Hamilton reported. When completed, the total num- ber of Firebees now on order — plus the expected requirement- will total 327 units. Hamilton said that deliveries will also begin early next year on an order for 50 BQM-34A Air Force Firebees with a follow-on order for 20 more expected. The Air Force versions will be powered by J-85 jet turbine engines, boosting their thrust by significant margins. Also being introduced in the BQM-34A versions will be Micro- processor Flight Control Systems newly developed by TRA. "These enhancements add ma- jor new performance qualities to the Firebee's operational en- velope. Overall, we can expect lowered maintenance and pre- flight system checkout times, and increased cost-efficiencies due to the product improvements," Hamilton explained. The new production orders is- sued by the Navy and Air Force for TRA's subsonic Firebees re- inforces the company's reputa- tion within its customer audiences for product reliability and perfor- mance qualities matched to re- quirements, he said. Hamilton noted that the Firebee, introduced in the early 1950s as a growth concept, has experienced five generations of advance, each keeping pace with technology de- velopments in weapon systems. "The new Navy order assures us of continued production into the decade ahead," Hamilton said. Pusher-prop powered, the twin- tailed aircraft has been configured for manned flight in initial phases of operations. Program Manager Doug Fronius said the flight test program is designed to explore the aircraft's design qualities and verify its per- formance capabilities. In its initial flight, the aircraft was flown to alti- tudes of 8,500 feet in incremental stages where various engine and control evaluations were achieved. Constructed primarily of com- posite materials, the aircraft has a 31-foot wingspan in its current configuration. A cockpit and flight controls for manned operations occupies the equipment bay that, during unmanned flight, will in- clude sophisticated sensor systems and reconnaissance and other monitoring equipment. The Model 410 is transported to operating sites in its own van that also houses a command and control center Tests of the air- craft under remote control are not planned in the manned flight test portions of the program, Froni- ous said. |
|
Article from Gizmodo says 7000 firebee drones were produced and states specifically that they were used for stinger training
https://gizmodo.com/the-ryan-firebee-grandfather-to-the-modern-uav-1155938222 Click To View Spoiler The BQM-34A was the premier aerial target system throughout the 1960s. It measures nearly 23 feet long with a 13-foot wingspan and was powered by a single 1,700 lbf Continental J69-T-29A engine. It was capable of topping 700 MPH (that's mach .97), flying as low as 10 feet above the water and as high as 60,000 feet for over an hour on a single tank. 7G turns while evading simulated fire were no problem thanks to an advanced microprocessor flight control system. And instead of an Invader, the BQM-34A launched instead from the under-wing pylon of a DC-130 Hercules drone controller aircraft, which could carry and command up to four drones. From the ground the Firebee employed a Aerojet General X102F solid-fueled rocket booster. The BQM-34A also came equipped with scoring and countermeasure systems, radar enhancements to help mimic the signatures of larger aircraft, and thermal flares on its wingtips so that heat-seekers would lock-on and destroy the wing, not the engine. After the drone was blown out of the sky it would deploy a parachute and wait to be plucked from the air by a specially equipped catcher helicopter or float on the ocean's surface until a recovery crew arrived to collect it. There were still plenty of BQM-34A drones not converted to reconnaissance duty, mind you. In the early 1980s, many 34As were updated with more powerful 1,900 lbf J69-T-41A engines and improved avionics. The Navy cancelled production of the BQM-34A between 1982 and 1986, however brought the platform back as the BQM-34S target drone. And, since then, both the Navy and Army (which purchased its own versions of the BQM-34A throughout the 1960s and '70s as practice targets for its new-fangled Stinger missiles) have been updating them with better engines, avionics, GPS, and chaff-dispensing capabilities (which were put to use in the 2003 Iraq invasion when the Firebees laid anti-SAM chaff corridors for following, piloted planes). More than 7,000 Firebees have been built since the start of the program and many are still serving militaries around the world—including the US, Canada, Japan, and other NATO member nations—more than fifty years after their invention. |
|
Quoted: Right. My point exactly. If you find target drone parts it is because someone shot down a target drone nearby. Now, is that likely to be a super secret DARPA one off aegis directed $5M missile or a $40k pissant missile produced in quanties that recently hit 50k units delivered? Which type of missile launch could be kept secret for 25 years, the one crewed by 1000 people on 10 ships or a grunt target practice? We have people like Paul who know their shit saying no way it was a big navy missile. A shitty little missile with only onboard heat seeking and one guy pulling a trigger is a much easier secret to keep. Training happens and training accidents happen, not everything is a giant moonshot. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Per my previous post, one Teledyne Ryan employee sent a fax intended for another Teledyne Ryan employee care of Calverton FBI saying “here is the parts schematic for the firebee drone parts you think you found” So maybe that is better evidence that a target drone was there and a dumb shit sent a wrong number fax? Or maybe the drone parts were there from a previous test in the area... Right. My point exactly. If you find target drone parts it is because someone shot down a target drone nearby. Now, is that likely to be a super secret DARPA one off aegis directed $5M missile or a $40k pissant missile produced in quanties that recently hit 50k units delivered? Which type of missile launch could be kept secret for 25 years, the one crewed by 1000 people on 10 ships or a grunt target practice? We have people like Paul who know their shit saying no way it was a big navy missile. A shitty little missile with only onboard heat seeking and one guy pulling a trigger is a much easier secret to keep. Training happens and training accidents happen, not everything is a giant moonshot. This was also the same Clinton who was trading Stinger missiles to anybody in the world in exchange for "favors" and deals. Some of the stuff fought against in GW I came from the US via Clinton->Iran->Iraq IIRC, not just stingers but mines and some other advanced .mil equipment that was supposed to be US Only, S America drug lords were in that little fluffle as well, and China, but that didn't matter because he did Not Have Sexual Relations With That Girl. TV Kept us very focused on that. TV also ran several specials and "new" computer animations showing how these planes could have exploded at any minute over the past decades in use, but were lucky. They were really hell bent on getting everybody to think Nitrogen in fuel bladders would save them so they would not longer be afraid to fly. Shortly after we had 9/11. |
|
|
|
|
Holy shit this thread exploded, but I'm sure it was just some faulty wiring. No point rehashing any of the arguments , but I think most of us "pants on the heads retards " feel that the .gov lies about a lot and covers for the political class all the time, witness and evidences were fucked with , the CIA running point on a domestic "accident" is interesting to say the least. No one here knows the true story and we probably never will.
If you want to learn more and actually care about what happend watch Jack Cashills CSPAN video or read his book. There is nothing wrong with be skeptical about what the government tells you anyone thinking the government cares about the average citizen and/or truth more than itself is naïve and cute. ETA: To the people claiming the DOD would notices the missing pennies for a missile getting bought and used, I remind you that the DOD lost over 21 trillion dollars, but yeah they can track that 40k. |
|
Quoted: Yes. I know Fitts' co-author of that report personally. View Quote Which when you think about it…. Considering we are coming up on the 20th anniversary… Donald Rumsfeld announced the Pentagon was missing $2.3 trillion . There might be some younger folks who don’t remember when that announcement was made… donald rumsfeld reports missing 2.3 trillion dollars September 10, 2001 . |
|
|
Quoted: Akulas carry the Strela-3 SAM. Maybe the Russians shot down TWA 800. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: You forgot about SUBSAM Akulas carry the Strela-3 SAM. Maybe the Russians shot down TWA 800. Impossible the Russians have never shot down a passenger airliner....erm, uh...yeeeeeeeeaaaahhhh. |
|
Quoted: Holy shit this thread exploded, but I'm sure it was just some faulty wiring. No point rehashing any of the arguments , but I think most of us "pants on the heads retards " feel that the .gov lies about a lot and covers for the political class all the time, witness and evidences were fucked with , the CIA running point on a domestic "accident" is interesting to say the least. No one here knows the true story and we probably never will. If you want to learn more and actually care about what happend watch Jack Cashills CSPAN video or read his book. There is nothing wrong with be skeptical about what the government tells you anyone thinking the government cares about the average citizen and/or truth more than itself is naïve and cute. ETA: To the people claiming the DOD would notices the missing pennies for a missile getting bought and used, I remind you that the DOD lost over 21 trillion dollars, but yeah they can track that 40k. View Quote I will gladly look into CIA malfeasance but I am scared of HUD, CIA has herds of pigs but HUD has Tyrone Biggums |
|
If it was MANPAD engagement, thinking the aircraft was a threat the ship would be scream warnings on Civilian Air Distress over and over before they fired.
Have any of you ever been on a ship off the US Coast. The weapons system is locked down tight. And never ever heard of a night time missile test, you would use valuable data from the missile flight. |
|
Quoted: Right. My point exactly. If you find target drone parts it is because someone shot down a target drone nearby. Now, is that likely to be a super secret DARPA one off aegis directed $5M missile or a $40k pissant missile produced in quanties that recently hit 50k units delivered? Which type of missile launch could be kept secret for 25 years, the one crewed by 1000 people on 10 ships or a grunt target practice? We have people like Paul who know their shit saying no way it was a big navy missile. A shitty little missile with only onboard heat seeking and one guy pulling a trigger is a much easier secret to keep. Training happens and training accidents happen, not everything is a giant moonshot. View Quote The Firebee is launched by either a giant rocket, or a C130. It's recovered by either a C130 or a helicopter. You'd think it would be clear to you by now that your "just a couple guys with a Stinger" narrative is completely unrealistic, but you just keep on going. |
|
|
|
Quoted: If it was MANPAD engagement, thinking the aircraft was a threat the ship would be scream warnings on Civilian Air Distress over and over before they fired. Have any of you ever been on a ship off the US Coast. The weapons system is locked down tight. And never ever heard of a night time missile test, you would use valuable data from the missile flight. View Quote Training mission. Inert manpad warhead. Small boat. Few direct witnesses. Lol i bet this guy woke up everyone on his ship: Attached File Attached File |
|
Quoted: The Firebee is launched by either a giant rocket, or a C130. It's recovered by either a C130 or a helicopter. You'd think it would be clear to you by now that your "just a couple guys with a Stinger" narrative is completely unrealistic, but you just keep on going. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Right. My point exactly. If you find target drone parts it is because someone shot down a target drone nearby. Now, is that likely to be a super secret DARPA one off aegis directed $5M missile or a $40k pissant missile produced in quanties that recently hit 50k units delivered? Which type of missile launch could be kept secret for 25 years, the one crewed by 1000 people on 10 ships or a grunt target practice? We have people like Paul who know their shit saying no way it was a big navy missile. A shitty little missile with only onboard heat seeking and one guy pulling a trigger is a much easier secret to keep. Training happens and training accidents happen, not everything is a giant moonshot. The Firebee is launched by either a giant rocket, or a C130. It's recovered by either a C130 or a helicopter. You'd think it would be clear to you by now that your "just a couple guys with a Stinger" narrative is completely unrealistic, but you just keep on going. The Teledyne Ryan guy who was head honcho of Firebee said “the orange shit ain’t ours” on record. In this day and age Stinger training uses very small targets, some with orange parts This is from fort irwin but they shoot these fuckers 50x live missile 4x per year at san clemente, cherry point, etc etc and numerous other open ocean training all over the world for regular and SOF forces Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached File Now tell me how many thousands of people it takes to move, operate, and stow that launcher (hint: one guy pulls a rope) |
|
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.