This.

You keep posting random military PR photos as if they mean something.

That’s already been studied in this documentary:

If it was a training mission, everyone on the boat would already know. Do you think they would just let dudes shoot missiles up top without notifying all the sailors? Just hope that nobody wanders into the backblast area? Do you think they wouldn't tell other ships in the area, to make sure no one launches a helicopter?

Ron Brown onboard?

Still haven't figured out how ridiculous your assertions are yet?

No matter how small the target is, someone (more likely a team of guys) has to issue it out. Someone (again, more likely a team of guys) has to set up the launcher. Someone (more likely a team of guys) has to turn in the launcher and any unexpended targets. Someone has to review that paperwork, which certifies that x number of targets were expended on such and such day, and remove those targets from the books. No one element requires thousands of people, but when you consider everyone involved in even a tiny local training event, thousands of people know about it.

Everyone on board the rubber raft?
Everyone standing on an empty beach?

How often do you notify everyone “below decks” on a four man raft before you hang trow and take a shit off starboard, knowledgable sir?

Derp derp i can shoot this, just a training warhead..

FYI the hazard zone at China Point on san clemente for stinger training is 1km to 8km offshore and they do not bother recovering these tiny drones (unlike firebee or chukas jet trainers which get recovered and rebuilt)..

Routine ops is “throw it in the gutter, go buy another” same as Eazy E wrecking a 64 impala

I have personal knowledge of a sof training accident where multiple people died and the press release didnt even list the correct number of dead bodies.

Tell me how everyone knows about a target trainer launch right next to the guy pulling the trainer?

Not every SOF training exercise is the scale of jade helm.

NTSB estimates ranged from 1500-2500 feet of additional climb after breakup.  The basic KE/PE trade would be an additional 4000 foot delta at that airspeed.  I don't see anything out of line with the what the NTSB is saying, nor did bona fide aero design experts.

By page 30 the tinfoil gang will have the CIA setting up a covert Sa-2 site in a Long Island neighborhood.

Attached File

So your current theory is that two dudes were alone in a rubber raft miles off shore, doing a training exercise by themselves? Or that they were standing on a beach on an island which has never appeared on any map? You're going full Poe's law at this point.

Finally had time to rewatch the whole Cahill video posted.  The guy makes a lot of assertions that should be very easy to fact check if he's lying.  Instead the swampy motherfuckers he calls out simply say he's a conspiracy nut.  It was a common response to anyone criticizing the Clinton team, in fact I believe they are the impetus for it's common use in government coverups of Dem malfeasance.  I just may not have been old enough before Clinton to notice it during Carter.

Anyway, considering that vid is from 2016, his calling out the fabricated 302s sure does hit the mark.  Whatever really brought this plane down the only thing we can truly be certain of is it wasn't what the official report says.

TWA-800 deserves the truth to be told about that day.

There were Nike rockets right on sandy hook beach, with CnC in local neighborhoods.

ROFL. You need to seek a mental health care professional.

A doctor sailing with two friends on a small boat saw two black military boats, very small, less than 200 yards away.

He thought they might be cops or dea so he lit up his sail and numbers as best he could with a flashlight to ID himself. No answer.

He intercepted a voice radio transmission from one boat to other “ i am gonna need a tow”

So yes, evidence points to small US surface craft on scene

Which were deactivated in 1974 so they're irrelevant to any TWA800 conspiracy theory.

I never said it did, but the original assertion was made to make fun of those that don't believe daddy .gov story, but in fact missile bases have already been setup along the coast in neighborhoods. Hence it's just as fucking stupid. It was a non sequitur to retarded non sequitur

During the subsequent investigation by Boeing  two men approach me at my sons Little League game.   They asked if I flew for TWA and I said yes.  

Both said they did structural analysis engineering at Boeing and were working the 800 fuel tank scenarios by trying to replicate the fuel tank explosion theories.  After multiple attempts they could not get the tank to fail in any meaningful way.

These engineers explained there was not a chance that 800 was destroyed by wiring issues but Boeing was under intense pressure by the administration to come up a plausible reason that was not terrorism related or shot down by unknown actors.

It was an odd conversation,  two guys whos sons played for the other team and knew I flew for TWA.  I didn't know them prior to our conversation.   They just wanted to set the story straight about what was happening within Boeing and the administration.

These "someone in the know told me something" stories are getting better and better.

It wouldn't be kept secret if it was some fuck up by an E1, why would it?  Plus there are still a lot of people who would know, like the entire bridge team and the weapons department that issued the missile. And are required to inventory it.  Plus everyone on the smoking sponsor.
And people talk and the entire ship would know, especially after they watched CNN that night.

We had a Sailor go missing and did a SAR for about 12 hours.  When we recovered her body she was naked.
By the time I went to lunch there was already gossip on the mess decks as I walked by and in the Wardroom that she had been raped and murdered.
No.
She jumped overboard to commit suicide, and during hypothermia it's very common for victims to get phantom hot flashes and rip off all of their clothes.

The rape story was more sensational, like a missile fired at a jetliner, so it had legs.
The real story was much more mundane.
My point is the rape story was all over the ship and there were maybe 10 people on the entire carrier that were involved directly in the recovery.

Any Russian or Chinese shoulder fired SAM's capable of hitting the plane?
SA-16 or SA-18?

it was stated earlier somewhere that a boat was headed the opposite direction at approx 30 knots?
That is no trawler. Was it ever identified?

Boeing will do whatever it thinks will be better for it, whether that is to fabricate equipment acceptance or bend to the will of the federal government.  I have secondhand knowledge of one.  The other I have no doubt.

Missiles are inventoried and tracked by serial number and a custody sheet and when a CO turns over a complete inventory is done before the new CO takes command.
You'd have to account for that missile missing.
That's at the tactical level, not DoD department level.

Hired by the Narcos in Columbia.

Now we've got the makings of some real Tom Clancy shit!

Block 11 of my 214....

For the love of Christ, please stop... I've almost pissed myself from laughing so hard this morning at level insanity you all are throwing around about the FIM-92.

I'm literally seeing nothing but basements, marginal personal hygiene skills, fat chicks in a hole, allot of anime, frozen imitation crab meat, and tin foil, allot of tin foil...    

If this continues unabated, someone should find a 1970's comic or "Love Boat" guest star still alive and start a Telethon, as a whole new level of retardation has been discovered.

Let me stop one thing, "training" devices as the following I doubt would have any classification to it or still associated with it:

THT (Tracking Head Trainer) has no missile, only the functional IFF and "seeker head" to feedback the worble/growl as you are picking up heat signatures to the gunner. Used for target acquisition, ranging, super-elevation and general weapons handling practice. The BCU also doesn't have an Argon element to super cool the seeker head and is rechargeable. BCU's in real life have a very, very short operational lifespan before you have to toss it

There is a version of the THT that is used in the firing simulator (a large 360 degree dome that projects aircraft and heat signatures) to feedback kills

"Firing Trainer"... you actually have allot of stock photos on this thread, as what is coming out is the "firing trainer". It is nothing but an alloy slug with a booster motor, so the gunner can experience the CG shift of the missile as it leaves the tube. The firing trainer slug is that blue alloy piece leaving the tube as can be seen in the pictures. At best it is a couple 100 yard unguided slug. Funny at the range at White Sands, it is not urban legend that there was a gang over Mexican Nationals that would sneak over, hide downrange then run out and collect them all as they are worth a fortune in scrap. You'll also notice a serious error in those shipboard pictures (seem to be off an LHA/LPD) as those gunners have not "super-elevated" prior to firing. This may be due to training practice, and to not hit the flight deck with the full force of the booster and protect the non-skid. Lack of super-elevation is not the end of the world when shooting from an elevated position, but potentially deadly at ground level.

"Live firing"... no there is no "Training" device. You are either doing it with out of front line service Redeye's (yes, I'm old now), or I'm sure they are using the 1980's-1990's earlier missile blocks now. I also assume that is why I have a complete Stinger transport case in my basement (Sportsman's guide was selling them years ago)... put two of them side by side, stack some flack jackets and you've got a hell of a field bed....

Live Firing is done against a BAT (Ballistic Aerial Target), being a Firebee, Firejet or MTR-15, flying what one would expect for a "Ground Attack" profile (not an Airliner on a commercial corridor climbing).

Friendly tip, aquatint yourselves with FM 44-18-1. It is unclassified and copies all over the internet. It will help you understand the realities of "point air defense" from the perspective of what "Stinger Teams do and do not do".

You might also reference data on other aircraft of a large size (such as a 747) who have taken a hit by a "MANPAD" and what ensued. Generally we are talking about an RTB situation 90% of the time.. Hinds, Hips, Frogfoot's, Fencer's.. yeah, out of the sky.. Backfires, Blinders, Bear's, Cub's.... not so much.. That's a job for SM-1/2/3, Hawk, Patriot type things.

Did the most reliable and among largest passenger aircraft in the world suddenly experience some "center tank fuel vapor and frayed wiring" issue.. that has also never been seen before and never since.... "yeah, that's what happened"..

Did some magical "supper gunner" pull off a one in a million shot, by a purely initially visual tracked and acquired weapons system (regardless if Stinger, Redeye or Strella), in fading light/dark at over 10K foot on a small vessel, in some manner of a sea state.. then by said magic, the missile decides "nah, F it, I'm not going to take the best IR source (4 climbing Engines at a high thrust setting with no IR diffusion) and go for dead center mass"... come on, get real...  

Do any of you have any idea how difficult that is to do, especially in fading light conditions and with an aircraft already at that altitude? Look I essentially "killed" my team once, by having them track birds in the distance, not understanding why "we couldn't get any tone", meanwhile a NMANG A-7 streaks over our heads at about 10 foot off the deck from behind us, shit hot pilot laughing his ass off on the radio...and that was mid-day. Don't believe that James Bond stuff... it's all "Kentucky Windage" to start

Why didn't the CIA "disappear" this witness?  
Something they overlooked in this massive conspiracy to protect some random E4 that was conducting a missile test, at night, without supervision in a zodiac in open ocean.
Was he the presidents son or something?

And this super secret SOF mission was using open comms on Channel 16?  They didn't have some high speed encrypted radio?  SOF carrying Baofengs?

I remember that.

To deal with pesky ASW aircraft. I've long thought a mast mounted quad canister of Stingers slaved to the periscope would be the shit. Alas, there's limited real estate in the sail and the powers that be apparently see no benefit to such a system.

So my cousins uncles brother who once saw a TWA airplane was out dumpster diving behind the Piggly Wiggly when a former CIA Boeing engineer approached him to say that TWA 800 didn't really blow up and was actually hijacked by time travelling squirrels. You can trust this story since it's 1000% factual.

A bomb makes a lot more sense to me.  It was a proven, frequently used method of taking down airliners in the pre-911 security environment.  It seems to me a missile adds a lot of complexity and risk for little gain in this scenario.

That's what's so funny. If these conspiracy types would go with terrorist bombing that was concealed by the .gov, that could be more believable. Instead they go with some random Marine E4 in a RIB with a Stinger.

A bomb was all the scare/hype in the 80s and 90s in the airline world.

You mean a RHIB?

As a side note to the Stinger conversation here, anybody else remember the Chinook that was hit by a Stinger over in the A-stan, but it didn’t detonate?

The helo landed fine without any further incident.  The next day EOD removed the unexploded parts of the missile.  They were able to get a serial number off it.

Allegedly….supposedly that Stinger was tracked back to Hillary’s State Department???
https://nypost.com/2014/06/08/how-the-taliban-got-their-hands-on-modern-us-missiles/


https://nypost.com/2014/06/08/how-the-taliban-got-their-hands-on-modern-us-missiles/


EDIT:  the article says it was the CIA who gave the missiles to anti-Qadafi forces in Libya.  Instead the Qatari’s funneled the Stingers to the Taliban in A-stan.

...and 20 pages in, after numerous posts from SME that clearly state that a Stinger wasn't even capable of hitting TWA800.

Right, because nobody ever flies into restricted airspace.

Ever.  

Not even on accident.  


I personally don't have a solid opinion on Flight 800, but the whole "this could never happen because (insert procedural obstacle here)" is pretty silly.

His sailboat had the battery messed with, gps logs zeroed out, and the ship log was stolen while personal property was left onboard by the “thieves”.

He had noted the encounter and his effort to hail or assist in the log.

After reading this entire thread, various conclusions come to mind.

* JHS has tried to posit a wide range of possibilities...too wide, in fact. Many of them are more implausible than can be accepted. But others are well within reason. His mistake is to keep looking at individual items, and ignoring the bigger patterns of information.

* Several posters have claimed some degree of knowledge applicable to the event: TWA employment, contact with investigators, etc. Not one of them believes the electrical spark theory. A few posters have claimed knowledge of aircraft systems, and major efforts after the fact to modify systems in response to TWA800. This would still be consistent with the fallout from having selected an accidental explosion narrative, and the need to repair public confidence in airlines, along with the consideration that any coverup would fail to include the tens of thousands of engineers and technicians involved in designing, building, and maintaining 747s worldwide. Those outside the curtain would need something concrete to allay their concerns, as a putative upgrade process would do.

* The article linked pages back, talks about a sizable number of apparent missile launches, in that area, over months and months. The quoted radio traffic and content appears plausible, and can be interpreted in several ways. It would certainly be consistent with ongoing sporadic efforts by nation-state actors (Iranians) to conduct a shoot-down using a short to medium range SAM system.

* The 11th note on the last post on page 15 mentions that foreign Stinger equivalents have greater ranges. We know the Iranians have/had Stingers, as well as multiple other MANPADS, and would have had them at that time.

* Any discussion of a missile should ultimately begin by asking what debris was publicly shown as having been recovered. Did we the public get to see the majority of recovered skin from the engines and underbody? How much wasn't officially recovered? The repeated claims that certain debris was confiscated, and photos restricted, would be consistent with an attempt to cover up missile damage, as a panel shotgunned with inward-piercing frag damage would be an absolute smoking gun. Any coverup would be entirely reliant on control of the debris recovery effort, and the disappearance of debris that exhibited frag damage.

* Anyone taking a federal report at face value, in a politically charged subject with reasonable suspicion of ulterior motives, is an idiot, or a paid actor. There's enough verified instances of known coverups and conspiracies as to make it entirely plausible that deliberate efforts were being made to deceive the public. Quoting a report that says "..no evidence was found..." isn't even a lie, if the evidence we would care about was never allowed to make it into the hands of the report's authors.

I've used secure Comms in the army.
I'd love to know how this guy out fishing was able to 'intercept' the transmission.

It reeks of shit.

So TWA 800 accidentally flew into restricted airspace and the  thousands of people who saw and abided by that airspace restriction have kept quiet about it ever since? Every air traffic controller, airline pilot, private pilot, etc; in addition to all the military service members involved? That makes total sense.

To piggy back on the whole “the federal report says X…."

And the comments about Petty Officer Snuffy and Ensign Greenhorn would have come forward if a missile was launched from their ship….

Wellll….

How many people came forward to whistleblow on Operation Fast and Furious?

And did anybody ever come forward from the inner circles of Oliver North, Admiral Poindexter, and/or the CIA about funneling drugs into the US to ultimately supply arms to the Contras?

And that is just 2 out of what? Hundreds of government shenanigans that we never hear anything about???

Unrelated to TWA800, I'm curious about countermeasures. Do things like the CWIS and anti-missile missiles stay active all the time or do they only get turned on when there is a known threat?

Grassley and Issa started investigating the BATFE because John Dodson and another agent contacted them to blow the whistle. So at least 2, I guess.

You are not going to get a definitive answer on that one way or the other, butttt….

Think about certain airlines flying out of specific international airports, and imagine what their countermeasure response would be :

Some of the articles I just read in Dodson make it sound like he came forward only after Brian Terry was murdered.

That cuts both ways.

Correct; he had problems with the operation which he spoke to his superiors about, then turned whistleblower when he heard about Terry's murder.

Not many of them are able to fit out and put to sea on this side of the world.