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Posted: 7/19/2021 6:58:23 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A doctor sailing with two friends on a small boat saw two black military boats, very small, less than 200 yards away. He thought they might be cops or dea so he lit up his sail and numbers as best he could with a flashlight to ID himself. No answer. He intercepted a voice radio transmission from one boat to other “ i am gonna need a tow” So yes, evidence points to small US surface craft on scene Okay let me get this right, 2 small boats you are saying were JSOC boats fired the MANpad and then in the clear talk to each other about needing a tow on a civilian frequency. Yea Okay |
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Posted: 7/19/2021 7:01:13 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Which were deactivated in 1974 so they're irrelevant to any TWA800 conspiracy theory. But you can go tour the rusted sites if you go up that way. And no one called "Blazing Skies" on UHF..... so |
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Posted: 7/19/2021 7:02:15 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: NTSB estimates ranged from 1500-2500 feet of additional climb after breakup. The basic KE/PE trade would be an additional 4000 foot delta at that airspeed. I don't see anything out of line with the what the NTSB is saying, nor did bona fide aero design experts. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: what they saw was not twa 800 do the math 12 miles off the coast. aircraft breaks up on fore and climbs 3000 feet and the fbi claims it looked like a misdile going p at 12 miles away, at 13,000 feet that is an angle of 10 degrees high off the horizon. then it catches fire and climbs 3000 feet that is a gain of 2.5 degrees higher. so we are to believe witnesses see a plane 10 degrees high climb on fire to 12.5 degrees high and it is mistaken for a missile leaving the water bullshit you would not even see that 2.5 degree movement As a fellow aviator, I’d be interested in your opinion of a nose-less 747 climbing 4000 ft I doubt that even happened. it would break apart not climb 3 or 4 thousand feet. The whole narrative is fantasy LOL! You're hilarious! Airplanes don't climb 2,000 feet AFTER BREAKUP. 1.16.4.8 Examination of Explosive Residue Examination of recovered wreckage revealed trace amounts of explosive residue on three samples of material from three separate locations in the airplane wreckage. These material samples were submitted to the FBI s laboratory in Washington, D.C., with many other material samples for analysis. The pieces on which these traces were found were described by the FBI as a piece of canvas like material and two pieces of floor panel;however, the exact locations of the traces were not documented. According to the FBIís laboratory report,219 analysis of each of the three material samples revealed that they contained traces of different explosives: one contained cyclotrimethylenetrinitramine(RDX), one contained nitroglycerin, and one contained a combination of RDX and pentaerythritol tetranitrate (PETN). Subsequent investigation revealed that the accident airplane had been used for a dog-training explosive detection exercise at St. Louis-Lambert International Airport(STL), St. Louis, Missouri, on June 10, 1996. During that exercise, an airport police officer placed five training aids containing explosives (one of which was cracked and could have released small amounts of explosives) in various locations inside the passenger cabin. Training aids were placed in the following locations: (1) in row 1, in the center armrest compartment separating seats 1 and 2; (2) in a small closet at the rear of the upper deck; (3) in row 10, inside the rear pouch of the seat back in front of seat 9; (4) in row 20,in the overhead compartment above seats 1 and 2; and (5) beside exit door R3 (see figure 20 in section 1.6.3.2 for an airplane diagram).2201.16.4.8.1 FAA Studies on the Effects of Sea Water on Explosive Residue Contamination FAA personnel at the FAA ís William J. Hughes Technical Center in Atlantic City,New Jersey, conducted tests to study the effects of sea water on cloth and aluminum airplane parts that had been exposed to explosives contamination.221 Pieces of aluminum from the wing of a commercial airplane and pieces of airplane seat covers were contaminated with explosive residue by manually deposited explosives and by exposure to an actual explosion and were then immersed in sea water. In both cases, when the cloth and aluminum airplane parts were examined after 2 days of immersion in sea water, the explosive residues were completely dissipated. The FAAís report concluded, ìour experiments have shown that their [sic] is very little likelihood that blast deposited explosive materials remain very long on cloth or aluminum aircraft parts after immersion in [sea water].î The FAA attributed this, in part, to the explosive residues being ìsomewhat soluble in [sea water].î Final Report It couldn't have been the explosives that NTSB/FBI detected in the wreckage...  |
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Posted: 7/19/2021 7:02:27 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: During the subsequent investigation by Boeing two men approach me at my sons Little League game. They asked if I flew for TWA and I said yes. Both said they did structural analysis engineering at Boeing and were working the 800 fuel tank scenarios by trying to replicate the fuel tank explosion theories. After multiple attempts they could not get the tank to fail in any meaningful way. These engineers explained there was not a chance that 800 was destroyed by wiring issues but Boeing was under intense pressure by the administration to come up a plausible reason that was not terrorism related or shot down by unknown actors. It was an odd conversation, two guys whos sons played for the other team and knew I flew for TWA. I didn't know them prior to our conversation. They just wanted to set the story straight about what was happening within Boeing and the administration. Were they in Black Suits with Wayfarer sunglasses on? |
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Posted: 7/19/2021 7:07:50 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It couldn't have been the explosives that NTSB/FBI detected in the wreckage... If you watch the Cashill video, he explains that the "training" happens to be same day the plane was at the airport. The plane took off 15 minutes after the training was over , that's one quick turn around time, and there was no documentation that the plane was the one actually used. IIRC hte type of plane didn't match the type in the training report(it's possible I mis remember that point) The officer tried refuting that part of the report to no avail. |
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Posted: 7/19/2021 7:09:55 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's what's so funny. If these conspiracy types would go with terrorist bombing that was concealed by the .gov, that could be more believable. Instead they go with some random Marine E4 in a RIB with a Stinger. But the .GOV makes no sense either. a bomb planted perhaps, but then why do it and not take the credit.... Jihad and all that is driven by media exposure. The simplest answer to any problem is usually the correct answer ..... faulty wiring center Fuel tank, or a bomb placed by a jihadist. My money is on the wiring, no moving parts to cover tracks once you plant a bomb. Occam's razor: a scientific and philosophical rule that entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily which is interpreted as requiring that the simplest of competing theories be preferred to the more complex or that explanations of unknown phenomena be sought first in terms of known quantities. |
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Posted: 7/19/2021 7:13:12 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: His sailboat had the battery messed with, gps logs zeroed out, and the ship log was stolen while personal property was left onboard by the “thieves”. He had noted the encounter and his effort to hail or assist in the log. Sure he did. |
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Posted: 7/19/2021 7:13:37 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: https://i.ibb.co/0yL4LGT/214-extract.jpg Block 11 of my 214.... For the love of Christ, please stop... I've almost pissed myself from laughing so hard this morning at level insanity you all are throwing around about the FIM-92. I'm literally seeing nothing but basements, marginal personal hygiene skills, fat chicks in a hole, allot of anime, frozen imitation crab meat, and tin foil, allot of tin foil... If this continues unabated, someone should find a 1970's comic or "Love Boat" guest star still alive and start a Telethon, as a whole new level of retardation has been discovered. Let me stop one thing, "training" devices as the following I doubt would have any classification to it or still associated with it: THT (Tracking Head Trainer) has no missile, only the functional IFF and "seeker head" to feedback the worble/growl as you are picking up heat signatures to the gunner. Used for target acquisition, ranging, super-elevation and general weapons handling practice. The BCU also doesn't have an Argon element to super cool the seeker head and is rechargeable. BCU's in real life have a very, very short operational lifespan before you have to toss it There is a version of the THT that is used in the firing simulator (a large 360 degree dome that projects aircraft and heat signatures) to feedback kills "Firing Trainer"... you actually have allot of stock photos on this thread, as what is coming out is the "firing trainer". It is nothing but an alloy slug with a booster motor, so the gunner can experience the CG shift of the missile as it leaves the tube. The firing trainer slug is that blue alloy piece leaving the tube as can be seen in the pictures. At best it is a couple 100 yard unguided slug. Funny at the range at White Sands, it is not urban legend that there was a gang over Mexican Nationals that would sneak over, hide downrange then run out and collect them all as they are worth a fortune in scrap. You'll also notice a serious error in those shipboard pictures (seem to be off an LHA/LPD) as those gunners have not "super-elevated" prior to firing. This may be due to training practice, and to not hit the flight deck with the full force of the booster and protect the non-skid. Lack of super-elevation is not the end of the world when shooting from an elevated position, but potentially deadly at ground level. "Live firing"... no there is no "Training" device. You are either doing it with out of front line service Redeye's (yes, I'm old now), or I'm sure they are using the 1980's-1990's earlier missile blocks now. I also assume that is why I have a complete Stinger transport case in my basement (Sportsman's guide was selling them years ago)... put two of them side by side, stack some flack jackets and you've got a hell of a field bed.... Live Firing is done against a BAT (Ballistic Aerial Target), being a Firebee, Firejet or MTR-15, flying what one would expect for a "Ground Attack" profile (not an Airliner on a commercial corridor climbing). Friendly tip, aquatint yourselves with FM 44-18-1. It is unclassified and copies all over the internet. It will help you understand the realities of "point air defense" from the perspective of what "Stinger Teams do and do not do". You might also reference data on other aircraft of a large size (such as a 747) who have taken a hit by a "MANPAD" and what ensued. Generally we are talking about an RTB situation 90% of the time.. Hinds, Hips, Frogfoot's, Fencer's.. yeah, out of the sky.. Backfires, Blinders, Bear's, Cub's.... not so much.. That's a job for SM-1/2/3, Hawk, Patriot type things. Did the most reliable and among largest passenger aircraft in the world suddenly experience some "center tank fuel vapor and frayed wiring" issue.. that has also never been seen before and never since.... "yeah, that's what happened".. Did some magical "supper gunner" pull off a one in a million shot, by a purely initially visual tracked and acquired weapons system (regardless if Stinger, Redeye or Strella), in fading light/dark at over 10K foot on a small vessel, in some manner of a sea state.. then by said magic, the missile decides "nah, F it, I'm not going to take the best IR source (4 climbing Engines at a high thrust setting with no IR diffusion) and go for dead center mass"... come on, get real... Do any of you have any idea how difficult that is to do, especially in fading light conditions and with an aircraft already at that altitude? Look I essentially "killed" my team once, by having them track birds in the distance, not understanding why "we couldn't get any tone", meanwhile a NMANG A-7 streaks over our heads at about 10 foot off the deck from behind us, shit hot pilot laughing his ass off on the radio...and that was mid-day. Don't believe that James Bond stuff... it's all "Kentucky Windage" to start Thank you for the info, I can tell that you know your shit and i will concede if you say it is a million to one or billion to one shot for any shoulder fired. Do you have an opinion on why an orange target drone fragment might be dredged up in a populated coastal area like Long Island, or why Teledyne Ryan would fly an employee out from SanDiego to camp at the east coast FBI office that was set up for TWA800? Many people have posted a bomb was more likely (both based on number of previous/later cases and likelihood of bringing down a big ass plane). A bomb doesnt really answer the 200+ witnesses who saw something going upward before the plane came down. I know plenty of people doubt eyewitnesses but we arent talking about 1-2 people or a suspect eye color from 50 feet on a dark street. As a guy who has seen plenty of small missiles from up close and likely from farther away, do you think a person on shore could see a shoulder fired anything from the distances involved at night? Obviously i have no idea what happened but there are just so many oddities in the investigation. I have to think the FBI’s months-long hardon for shoulder fired evidence might be based on non-public info (tips, sig intelligence, human intelligence, etc). A coverup or incompetence or extreme bad luck would be needed to hide evidence of either a live bomb or functional warhead. A dud-or-inert warhead would strike with plenty of kinetic energy and leave much less signature than a fragging detonation and it could easily be missed in the portion of unrecovered plane. A bomb has no kinetic energy and would leave both high speed metal flow and probably a lot more residue than was stated. |
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Posted: 7/19/2021 7:17:26 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Right, because nobody ever flies into restricted airspace. Ever. Not even on accident. I personally don't have a solid opinion on Flight 800, but the whole "this could never happen because (insert procedural obstacle here)" is pretty silly. Redundancy reduces this issue and like any accident the steps that led to the accident can usually be traced back to the source. Since the Aircraft was flying lighted, and was squawking the right civilian codes. It would be likely that if it was an exercise of a weapons system They would have been warning aircraft in the vicinity of the TFR on 121.5 MHz and International Air Distress (IAD) or VHF Guard, and 243.0 MHz and Military Air Distress at 406 MHz all of which are recorded by Tracom and other aviation facilities. |
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Posted: 7/19/2021 7:18:08 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Unrelated to TWA800, I'm curious about countermeasures. Do things like the CWIS and anti-missile missiles stay active all the time or do they only get turned on when there is a known threat? Depends on where you are operating, and your stage in the training schedule or on deployment. Off CONUS, stuff might not even be loaded. |
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Posted: 7/19/2021 7:18:22 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've used secure Comms in the army. I'd love to know how this guy out fishing was able to 'intercept' the transmission. It reeks of shit. Totally, it is why the .Mil spends Billions on secure comms. |
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Posted: 7/19/2021 7:20:27 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sounds a whole lot like "There's no way Trump was spied upon, too many people would know..." line. Heard it in other BS cases too, following those rules is only for the little people, those making decisions do whatever they want and could delete inventory and move stuff around without an audit trail. Our .gov is as corrupt as anybody's, it no longer works how we were taught in school, unless learning about tin pot dictators. methods of control. The difference is the control isn't in your face and overt, it's all subtle making people want to keep believing the lie since it is most comfortable and they don't need to do anything differently then. Somebody else would catch it and somebody else would fix it so it's impossible. The military is not the deep state, as we have seen the deep state attacks on the military. Especially in 1996. |
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Posted: 7/19/2021 7:23:20 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Redundancy reduces this issue and like any accident the steps the led to the accident can usually be traced back to the source. Since the Aircraft was flying lighted, and was squawking the right civilian codes. It would be unlikely that if it was an exercise of a weapons system They would have been warning aircraft in the vicinity of the TFR on 121.5 MHz and International Air Distress (IAD) or VHF Guard, and 243.0 MHz and Military Air Distress at 406 MHz all of which are recorded by Tracom and other aviation facilities. There is no "right" mode 3/a code and only Mode 4 and Mode 5 challenges are used to authenticate iff. |
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Posted: 7/19/2021 7:25:07 PM EDT
[#14]
This is a strange thread.
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Posted: 7/19/2021 7:31:04 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: LOL! You're hilarious! Airplanes don't climb 2,000 feet AFTER BREAKUP. |
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Posted: 7/19/2021 7:39:18 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Depends on where you are operating, and your stage in the training schedule or on deployment. Off CONUS, stuff might not even be loaded. In fact, unless you are the Alert 15 aircraft no other aircraft are armed, and yes when away from CONUS Looser ROE exist dependent on the threat level, Not sure about Air Force Doctrine but I am sure they take great care not to accidentally fire a AIM-120 and any thing other then target. It is very likely when territorial waters off conus, that the only thing that was loaded and Off Safe would be the SRBOC decoy system. Which changed after the USS Stark tried to initiate SRBOC launches once the EW Operator realized the system had detected a real world Terminal Homer from the exocet. ComteK who wrote the software for the SLQ-32 back then brought the Core load to our ship because the systems were almost identical. Last 3 commands in the buffer to the slq were fire SRBOC. But the launcher has a safe unsafe switch at the bottom. Their doctrine at the time was Safe Always. It changed Navy Doctrine for at least 20 years, don't know what it is now, but when At sea the control of SRBOC is with the EW Operator/Sup (IT T branches) who has the authority to launch Chaff, Engage with ECM, and Direct to Bridge to Make turns and speeds to get the wind needed to make the decoys effective. But White Birds on the rail off the coast of CONUS, Not unless it is a planned exercise. Hell the TAO doesn't even have his what we called FIZZ key, it is in a safe next to the Master Arm for hard kill weapons. So training exercise accident .... about a 1% chance. |
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Posted: 7/19/2021 7:42:41 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There is no "right" mode 3/a code and only Mode 4 and Mode 5 challenges are used to authenticate iff. There is a right code, it is the code assigned that aircraft by who ever is controlling that aircraft and if it was military it would have been transmitting 4/5. But the Track Sup would have a mode 3a which can me verified in moments. |
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Posted: 7/19/2021 7:45:58 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is a strange thread. It's a strange thread because it is a strange event. Lots of things about it that make even non conspiracy folks scratch their head and wonder about. |
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Posted: 7/19/2021 7:49:08 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There is no "right" mode 3/a code and only Mode 4 and Mode 5 challenges are used to authenticate iff. Maybe TWA 800 was squawing 7500. |
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Posted: 7/19/2021 7:53:20 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There is a right code, it is the code assigned that aircraft by who ever is controlling that aircraft and if it was military it would have been transmitting 4/5. But the Track Sup would have a mode 3a which can me verified in moments. Navy has no idea what Mode III is assigned to what aircraft by ATC. We can interrogate all codes, and see an aircraft has ONLY a Mode III. But we have no idea that 2356 is TWA 800. |
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Posted: 7/19/2021 7:54:06 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Okay let me get this right, 2 small boats you are saying were JSOC boats fired the MANpad and then in the clear talk to each other about needing a tow on a civilian frequency. Yea Okay Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: A doctor sailing with two friends on a small boat saw two black military boats, very small, less than 200 yards away. He thought they might be cops or dea so he lit up his sail and numbers as best he could with a flashlight to ID himself. No answer. He intercepted a voice radio transmission from one boat to other “ i am gonna need a tow” So yes, evidence points to small US surface craft on scene Okay let me get this right, 2 small boats you are saying were JSOC boats fired the MANpad and then in the clear talk to each other about needing a tow on a civilian frequency. Yea Okay I can tell you that conus military occasionally uses handheld frs, gmrs, and ham (icom etc) for bullshit routine short range comms in 2021. I have no idea what exact type of radio the doctor was listening on. The doctor wasnt sure if the small black boats he saw were FBI, military, DEA, or what - he just didnt want to fail to ID himself to them. There are ten acknowledged/identified US military craft near to twa800 and kallstrom is on record that there were another three whose identity, specific location, and reason for being there remains classified (TWA museum website has kallstrom audio interview). Ten military craft were in the vicinity of TWA 800 at the time it began its fall: one P3 Orion, one C-130, one Black Hawk helicopter, one C-141, one C-10, the Coast Guard cutter Adak, the USS Wyoming, the USS Albuquerque, the USS Trepany, and the USS Normandy. |
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Posted: 7/19/2021 7:56:46 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The debris field indicates otherwise. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: LOL! You're hilarious! Airplanes don't climb 2,000 feet AFTER BREAKUP. Why did the navy dredge an area comparable to rhode island and extending miles past the distance that twa could glide to if it had remained intact from 13700ft? |
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Posted: 7/19/2021 8:00:57 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I can tell you that conus military occasionally uses handheld frs, gmrs, and ham (icom etc) for bullshit routine short range comms in 2021. I have no idea what exact type of radio the doctor was listening on. The doctor wasnt sure if the small black boats he saw were FBI, military, DEA, or what - he just didnt want to fail to ID himself to them. Can you? Can you tell us that? |
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Posted: 7/19/2021 8:06:46 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's a strange thread because it is a strange event. Lots of things about it that make even non conspiracy folks scratch their head and wonder about. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: This is a strange thread. It's a strange thread because it is a strange event. Lots of things about it that make even non conspiracy folks scratch their head and wonder about. We've ran the complete gambit. Everything from Navy ships to guys on a zodiac. Paul knows his shit and what's his name argued with him for 5 pages before what's his name changed the method of launch to something else, and then something else and on to something else. I think homosexual Armenian paratroopers in freefall firing manpads is next in line. |
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Posted: 7/19/2021 8:08:53 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Can you? Can you tell us that? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I can tell you that conus military occasionally uses handheld frs, gmrs, and ham (icom etc) for bullshit routine short range comms in 2021. I have no idea what exact type of radio the doctor was listening on. The doctor wasnt sure if the small black boats he saw were FBI, military, DEA, or what - he just didnt want to fail to ID himself to them. Can you? Can you tell us that? I sent 40 motorola frs to an army base this year. Are they planning to eat them or burn them? |
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Posted: 7/19/2021 8:11:36 PM EDT
[#26]
Here is the story of the sailboat Aphrodite that ran into three blacked out 25 foot boats.
Story is from Cmdr Donaldson’s website. Donaldson spoke directly to Dr. Gilliam. Specific civilian voice comm freq mod not mentioned. ETA: dr quincy gilliam was a dds, not an MD. He died of a brain tumor in 2008. Obit in second spoiler. Click To View Spoiler Click To View Spoiler |
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Posted: 7/19/2021 8:12:01 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sounds a whole lot like "There's no way Trump was spied upon, too many people would know..." line. Heard it in other BS cases too, following those rules is only for the little people, those making decisions do whatever they want and could delete inventory and move stuff around without an audit trail. Our .gov is as corrupt as anybody's, it no longer works how we were taught in school, unless learning about tin pot dictators. methods of control. The difference is the control isn't in your face and overt, it's all subtle making people want to keep believing the lie since it is most comfortable and they don't need to do anything differently then. Somebody else would catch it and somebody else would fix it so it's impossible. Straight up. |
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Posted: 7/19/2021 8:24:34 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ...the whole "this could never happen because (insert procedural obstacle here)" is pretty silly. Nothing is impossible...but a lot of things have probabilities which are so statistically unlikely that they can be rounded to zero. In order for this to have been an accident, first an incredible number of failsafes would have had to break down. Then, hundreds (if not thousands) of people in the know would need to be silenced to maintain a fabricated cover story. Then, for at least 25 years, no one ever comes forward and exposes the facts. Or...it wasn't an accident and it was something else. It's just a game of probabilities. I rarely say anything is impossible...but I frequently point out just how improbable it is that certain elaborate sequences of events are likely to occur organically. For this same exact reason, I discount the official reason cited. It requires such a specific set of parameters....its not impossible...but it sounds like a pretty far reach. |
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Posted: 7/19/2021 8:26:12 PM EDT
[#29]
Someone on that plane had something on the Clintons.
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Posted: 7/19/2021 8:27:30 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Short of execution, how do you keep 600 to 1000 people that quite over so many years? The smart ones figure out pretty quick what happens when you cross a Clinton. |
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Posted: 7/19/2021 8:32:20 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Can you? Can you tell us that? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I can tell you that conus military occasionally uses handheld frs, gmrs, and ham (icom etc) for bullshit routine short range comms in 2021. I have no idea what exact type of radio the doctor was listening on. The doctor wasnt sure if the small black boats he saw were FBI, military, DEA, or what - he just didnt want to fail to ID himself to them. Can you? Can you tell us that? Here you go @Desert_AIP, i am sure everyone in your unit rocked full crypto OTA rekey saasm but a lot of units are still poors and use walkie talkies to ask to take a dump https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/pdf/web/ARN13157_R5_12_FINAL.pdf It actually says they are allowed to use COTS FRS for non super secret shit but obviously not supposed to use GMRS or ham. Guess what though, sometimes they even use ham. And if you say “but but sir, the FCC, sir?” They will say “fuck the fcc, this is our base” And yes i know where the zeroize lockout slider is on a PS MPU5  Attached File |
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Posted: 7/19/2021 8:34:26 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The debris field indicates otherwise. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: LOL! You're hilarious! Airplanes don't climb 2,000 feet AFTER BREAKUP. I also suspect that when a massive explosion occurs, a good deal of debris immediately and violently changes in trajectory and velocity....resulting in a return to earth in a place not consistent with the air speed and vector of the craft before the explosion. |
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Posted: 7/19/2021 8:37:20 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How many missile launches have you run? participated in? seen on TV? For me more than a dozen including being in combat for some and watching the mount on others. It's not an accidental event. There's a greater chance of your Ford F150 starting itself up and driving to Florida and back for spring break than a missile "accidentally" launching. If a missile launched it was with INTENT. So who was on that plane that was so bad than +30 guys had to secretly launch a silent missile, or the whole crew of +200 men must be holding the secret of the murder of hundreds of Americans. What kind of monsters work for the Navy?  My good friend’s wife lost her mother and father. Boeing ended up compensating her well. Sad time. |
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Posted: 7/19/2021 8:39:08 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I suspect that a plane cannot gain altitude after its propulsion systems fail. I also suspect that when a massive explosion occurs, a good deal of debris immediately and violently changes in trajectory and velocity....resulting in a return to earth in a place not consistent with the air speed and vector of the craft before the explosion. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: LOL! You're hilarious! Airplanes don't climb 2,000 feet AFTER BREAKUP. I also suspect that when a massive explosion occurs, a good deal of debris immediately and violently changes in trajectory and velocity....resulting in a return to earth in a place not consistent with the air speed and vector of the craft before the explosion. A pilot with loss of thrust can trade altitude for airspeed or trade airspeed for altitude. But remember, the official zoom climb story says that the thrust lost the pilots and the pilots lost the thrust. Evidently if you break the front off a 747 it becomes a space ship. |
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Posted: 7/19/2021 9:08:53 PM EDT
[#35]
To everyone in the thread who says “a tiny pissant shoulder fire missile cannot down a 747”
Consider this: even a dud/inert stinger moving at 1500mph has a metric fuckton more kinetic energy than the tiny electrical spark which officially triggered the fuel tank explosion. It is the equivalent of saying that a small rock can’t initiate a windshield crack, but then saying a much smaller rock in fact actually did initiate a windshield crack. |
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Posted: 7/19/2021 9:16:10 PM EDT
[#36]
Holy fuck you people get more and more insane.
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Posted: 7/19/2021 9:18:31 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: To everyone in the thread who says “a tiny pissant shoulder fire missile cannot down a 747” Consider this: even a dud/inert stinger moving at 1500mph has a metric fuckton more kinetic energy than the tiny electrical spark which officially triggered the fuel tank explosion. It is the equivalent of saying that a small rock can’t initiate a windshield crack, but then saying a much smaller rock in fact actually did initiate a windshield crack. I'm pretty sure no one has claimed a shoulder fired SAM is incapable of bringing down a 747. |
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Posted: 7/19/2021 9:32:35 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I sent 40 motorola frs to an army base this year. Are they planning to eat them or burn them? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I can tell you that conus military occasionally uses handheld frs, gmrs, and ham (icom etc) for bullshit routine short range comms in 2021. I have no idea what exact type of radio the doctor was listening on. The doctor wasnt sure if the small black boats he saw were FBI, military, DEA, or what - he just didnt want to fail to ID himself to them. Can you? Can you tell us that? I sent 40 motorola frs to an army base this year. Are they planning to eat them or burn them? Which base and who at that base? SFOD or the motor pool? Or MWR? |
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Posted: 7/19/2021 9:34:20 PM EDT
[#39]
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Posted: 7/19/2021 9:35:03 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I suspect that a plane cannot gain altitude after its propulsion systems fail. I also suspect that when a massive explosion occurs, a good deal of debris immediately and violently changes in trajectory and velocity....resulting in a return to earth in a place not consistent with the air speed and vector of the craft before the explosion. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: LOL! You're hilarious! Airplanes don't climb 2,000 feet AFTER BREAKUP. I also suspect that when a massive explosion occurs, a good deal of debris immediately and violently changes in trajectory and velocity....resulting in a return to earth in a place not consistent with the air speed and vector of the craft before the explosion. When NTSB ran their simulations, they determined that regardless of engine power settings, the aircraft's climb profile was about the same. It's one of their stated findings. And, it's not a surprise that engine thrust had a negligible effect on their calculated climb profile with that cg offset. |
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Posted: 7/19/2021 9:35:42 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm pretty sure no one has claimed a shoulder fired SAM is incapable of bringing down a 747. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: To everyone in the thread who says “a tiny pissant shoulder fire missile cannot down a 747” Consider this: even a dud/inert stinger moving at 1500mph has a metric fuckton more kinetic energy than the tiny electrical spark which officially triggered the fuel tank explosion. It is the equivalent of saying that a small rock can’t initiate a windshield crack, but then saying a much smaller rock in fact actually did initiate a windshield crack. I'm pretty sure no one has claimed a shoulder fired SAM is incapable of bringing down a 747. Lots of people in this thread said that. Most have said specifically that a certain unspecified variant of “stinger” can never hit anything above 10k feet. The most knowledgable single person about manpad in this thread rstel01 said a stinger basically cannot take down a giant plane and he knows a lot more firsthand because he lived it for years: Quoting rstel01 post below (which agrees with most experts - because usually a tiny heat seeker hits one of four hot engines instead of cracking the fucking spine on the center fuel tank when homing on the cooling duct exhaust) You might also reference data on other aircraft of a large size (such as a 747) who have taken a hit by a "MANPAD" and what ensued. Generally we are talking about an RTB situation 90% of the time.. Hinds, Hips, Frogfoot's, Fencer's.. yeah, out of the sky.. Backfires, Blinders, Bear's, Cub's.... not so much.. That's a job for SM-1/2/3, Hawk, Patriot type things. Did the most reliable and among largest passenger aircraft in the world suddenly experience some "center tank fuel vapor and frayed wiring" issue.. that has also never been seen before and never since.... "yeah, that's what happened".. Did some magical "supper gunner" pull off a one in a million shot, by a purely initially visual tracked and acquired weapons system (regardless if Stinger, Redeye or Strella), in fading light/dark at over 10K foot on a small vessel, in some manner of a sea state.. then by said magic, the missile decides "nah, F it, I'm not going to take the best IR source (4 climbing Engines at a high thrust setting with no IR diffusion) and go for dead center mass"... come on, get real... Do any of you have any idea how difficult that is to do, especially in fading light conditions and with an aircraft already at that altitude? Look I essentially "killed" my team once, by having them track birds in the distance, not understanding why "we couldn't get any tone", meanwhile a NMANG A-7 streaks over our heads at about 10 foot off the deck from behind us, shit hot pilot laughing his ass off on the radio...and that was mid-day. Don't believe that James Bond stuff... it's all "Kentucky Windage" to start |
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Posted: 7/19/2021 9:44:06 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Here is the story of the sailboat Aphrodite that ran into three blacked out 25 foot boats. Story is from Cmdr Donaldson’s website. Donaldson spoke directly to Dr. Gilliam. Specific civilian voice comm freq mod not mentioned. ETA: dr quincy gilliam was a dds, not an MD. He died of a brain tumor in 2008. Obit in second spoiler. Click To View Spoiler Click To View Spoiler What happens to your entire theory if Cmdr Donaldson was deemed a looney or, perhaps, a guy trying to sell a narrative? |
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Posted: 7/19/2021 9:54:32 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Aircraft can gain altitude with their engines cut back to flight idle. At its most basic, it's a trade of kinetic energy for potential energy. Pilots, even very good pilots, can be surprised by just how much altitude they can gain in the process. When NTSB ran their simulations, they determined that regardless of engine power settings, the aircraft's climb profile was about the same. It's one of their stated findings. And, it's not a surprise that engine thrust had a negligible effect on their calculated climb profile with that cg offset. If the wings would stay attached after the central spar was blown apart enough for the nose to detach...  Attached FileNevertheless the apparent angle of the entire length of the zoom climb, flames to boom, at the distance it was from shore wouldn't cover enough distance for hundreds of people to say it looked like something flew up from the horizon way up into the sky. |
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Posted: 7/19/2021 9:54:55 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What happens to your entire theory if Cmdr Donaldson was deemed a looney or, perhaps, a guy trying to sell a narrative? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Here is the story of the sailboat Aphrodite that ran into three blacked out 25 foot boats. Story is from Cmdr Donaldson’s website. Donaldson spoke directly to Dr. Gilliam. Specific civilian voice comm freq mod not mentioned. ETA: dr quincy gilliam was a dds, not an MD. He died of a brain tumor in 2008. Obit in second spoiler. Click To View Spoiler Click To View Spoiler What happens to your entire theory if Cmdr Donaldson was deemed a looney or, perhaps, a guy trying to sell a narrative? Did CMDR donaldson fake FBI SA Bongardts handwriting on the two stupid drawings where they were looking for stinger parts? Did he fabricate the FBI scallop boat operations manual that lists a 24-7 manned phone number (which could be cross checked to phone billing records from the time if anyone cared to)? Did donaldson fake the fax from teledyne to teledyne care of fbi fax number which indicates they think they found an orange target drone fragment? Donaldson might have been nuts and i am sure the giant brain tumor didnt help during calendar year 2001 but most of his info is very specific as to names, dates, and verifiable details. Someone at china lake thought well enough of him to send him slides no one else had. Those could be checked with the china lake report author (or anyone else who drove the missile modeler GUI around that time). Dr Gilliam went on record long before he died of his brain tumor. Who the fuck knows? |
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Posted: 7/19/2021 9:57:40 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Lots of people in this thread said that. Most have said specifically that a certain unspecified variant of “stinger” can never hit anything above 10k feet. The most knowledgable single person about manpad in this thread rstel01 said a stinger basically cannot take down a giant plane and he knows a lot more firsthand because he lived it for years: Quoting rstel01 post below (which agrees with most experts - because usually a tiny heat seeker hits one of four hot engines instead of cracking the fucking spine on the center fuel tank when homing on the cooling duct exhaust) Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: To everyone in the thread who says “a tiny pissant shoulder fire missile cannot down a 747” Consider this: even a dud/inert stinger moving at 1500mph has a metric fuckton more kinetic energy than the tiny electrical spark which officially triggered the fuel tank explosion. It is the equivalent of saying that a small rock can’t initiate a windshield crack, but then saying a much smaller rock in fact actually did initiate a windshield crack. I'm pretty sure no one has claimed a shoulder fired SAM is incapable of bringing down a 747. Lots of people in this thread said that. Most have said specifically that a certain unspecified variant of “stinger” can never hit anything above 10k feet. The most knowledgable single person about manpad in this thread rstel01 said a stinger basically cannot take down a giant plane and he knows a lot more firsthand because he lived it for years: Quoting rstel01 post below (which agrees with most experts - because usually a tiny heat seeker hits one of four hot engines instead of cracking the fucking spine on the center fuel tank when homing on the cooling duct exhaust) You might also reference data on other aircraft of a large size (such as a 747) who have taken a hit by a "MANPAD" and what ensued. Generally we are talking about an RTB situation 90% of the time.. Hinds, Hips, Frogfoot's, Fencer's.. yeah, out of the sky.. Backfires, Blinders, Bear's, Cub's.... not so much.. That's a job for SM-1/2/3, Hawk, Patriot type things. Did the most reliable and among largest passenger aircraft in the world suddenly experience some "center tank fuel vapor and frayed wiring" issue.. that has also never been seen before and never since.... "yeah, that's what happened".. Did some magical "supper gunner" pull off a one in a million shot, by a purely initially visual tracked and acquired weapons system (regardless if Stinger, Redeye or Strella), in fading light/dark at over 10K foot on a small vessel, in some manner of a sea state.. then by said magic, the missile decides "nah, F it, I'm not going to take the best IR source (4 climbing Engines at a high thrust setting with no IR diffusion) and go for dead center mass"... come on, get real... Do any of you have any idea how difficult that is to do, especially in fading light conditions and with an aircraft already at that altitude? Look I essentially "killed" my team once, by having them track birds in the distance, not understanding why "we couldn't get any tone", meanwhile a NMANG A-7 streaks over our heads at about 10 foot off the deck from behind us, shit hot pilot laughing his ass off on the radio...and that was mid-day. Don't believe that James Bond stuff... it's all "Kentucky Windage" to start rstel01 is correct. A stinger or other MANPADS could not do it. 747 is a big plane. It would be pretty much impossible to hit that aircraft at that altitude with a MANPADS. And even if you did, those little missiles need multiple hits to bring down a jet that big. General Benton K. Partin, USAF (Ret.) stated that the 747 was hit with a large radar guided missile. I concur with GEN Partin's assessment, as it is the only thing that fits the evidence. One of the world’s leading missile and military explosives experts, Brigadier General Benton K. Partin (USAF, ret.), agrees that a missile-attack scenario is entirely in keeping with the publicly available information on the jet disaster, but does not believe a Stinger-type missile would have been used. “According to what has been released, there was not the kind of damage in the [jet’s] cabin that would coincide with a bomb inside the aircraft,” Partin explained to The New American. “To obtain the kind of massive structural damage we see here, a bomb would have to produce much greater internal explosive destruction than has been reported. And you could hit a big 747 with several Redeyes or Stingers and still not bring it down.” General Partin, who has commanded the U.S. Air Force Armaments Laboratory and has designed and tested many warheads, said that “when you design a missile warhead to destroy a bomber, you always want to get what we call a ‘K-kill,’ meaning a massive, instantaneous, structural failure which ‘kills’ — brings down — the aircraft.” “The only kind of missile I know of for that kind of structural kill — to cut the nose off the front of the plane as happened with TWA 800 — is a proximity-fused, continuous-rod missile warhead.” As General Partin explained it, the missile would be launched — from land, sea, or air — to intersect with the trajectory of the jet. The missile itself would not necessarily hit the aircraft. The proximity fuse would detonate when the missile approaches the aircraft, causing a long, accordion-like steel rod to unfold at high velocity, slicing the target in two. “I doubt that any of the investigators on the crash have ever seen that kind of damage to a plane before and so would probably not know how to assess the damage even if they were looking at it,” said General Partin. Friendly Fire Shootdown? If, indeed, that is what happened to TWA 800, then we are looking at much more than your garden variety terrorist operation. The technological sophistication, expense, and bulk of the type of missile General Partin suggests takes us into the realm of either state terrorism — or “friendly fire.” |
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Posted: 7/19/2021 10:10:36 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: rstel01 is correct. A stinger or other MANPADS could not do it. 747 is a big plane. It would be pretty much impossible to hit that aircraft at that altitude with a MANPADS. And even if you did, those little missiles need multiple hits to bring down a jet that big. General Benton K. Partin, USAF (Ret.) stated that the 747 was hit with a large radar guided missile. I concur with GEN Partin's assessment, as it is the only thing that fits the evidence. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: To everyone in the thread who says “a tiny pissant shoulder fire missile cannot down a 747” Consider this: even a dud/inert stinger moving at 1500mph has a metric fuckton more kinetic energy than the tiny electrical spark which officially triggered the fuel tank explosion. It is the equivalent of saying that a small rock can’t initiate a windshield crack, but then saying a much smaller rock in fact actually did initiate a windshield crack. I'm pretty sure no one has claimed a shoulder fired SAM is incapable of bringing down a 747. Lots of people in this thread said that. Most have said specifically that a certain unspecified variant of “stinger” can never hit anything above 10k feet. The most knowledgable single person about manpad in this thread rstel01 said a stinger basically cannot take down a giant plane and he knows a lot more firsthand because he lived it for years: Quoting rstel01 post below (which agrees with most experts - because usually a tiny heat seeker hits one of four hot engines instead of cracking the fucking spine on the center fuel tank when homing on the cooling duct exhaust) You might also reference data on other aircraft of a large size (such as a 747) who have taken a hit by a "MANPAD" and what ensued. Generally we are talking about an RTB situation 90% of the time.. Hinds, Hips, Frogfoot's, Fencer's.. yeah, out of the sky.. Backfires, Blinders, Bear's, Cub's.... not so much.. That's a job for SM-1/2/3, Hawk, Patriot type things. Did the most reliable and among largest passenger aircraft in the world suddenly experience some "center tank fuel vapor and frayed wiring" issue.. that has also never been seen before and never since.... "yeah, that's what happened".. Did some magical "supper gunner" pull off a one in a million shot, by a purely initially visual tracked and acquired weapons system (regardless if Stinger, Redeye or Strella), in fading light/dark at over 10K foot on a small vessel, in some manner of a sea state.. then by said magic, the missile decides "nah, F it, I'm not going to take the best IR source (4 climbing Engines at a high thrust setting with no IR diffusion) and go for dead center mass"... come on, get real... Do any of you have any idea how difficult that is to do, especially in fading light conditions and with an aircraft already at that altitude? Look I essentially "killed" my team once, by having them track birds in the distance, not understanding why "we couldn't get any tone", meanwhile a NMANG A-7 streaks over our heads at about 10 foot off the deck from behind us, shit hot pilot laughing his ass off on the radio...and that was mid-day. Don't believe that James Bond stuff... it's all "Kentucky Windage" to start rstel01 is correct. A stinger or other MANPADS could not do it. 747 is a big plane. It would be pretty much impossible to hit that aircraft at that altitude with a MANPADS. And even if you did, those little missiles need multiple hits to bring down a jet that big. General Benton K. Partin, USAF (Ret.) stated that the 747 was hit with a large radar guided missile. I concur with GEN Partin's assessment, as it is the only thing that fits the evidence. One of the world’s leading missile and military explosives experts, Brigadier General Benton K. Partin (USAF, ret.), agrees that a missile-attack scenario is entirely in keeping with the publicly available information on the jet disaster, but does not believe a Stinger-type missile would have been used. “According to what has been released, there was not the kind of damage in the [jet’s] cabin that would coincide with a bomb inside the aircraft,” Partin explained to The New American. “To obtain the kind of massive structural damage we see here, a bomb would have to produce much greater internal explosive destruction than has been reported. And you could hit a big 747 with several Redeyes or Stingers and still not bring it down.” General Partin, who has commanded the U.S. Air Force Armaments Laboratory and has designed and tested many warheads, said that “when you design a missile warhead to destroy a bomber, you always want to get what we call a ‘K-kill,’ meaning a massive, instantaneous, structural failure which ‘kills’ — brings down — the aircraft.” “The only kind of missile I know of for that kind of structural kill — to cut the nose off the front of the plane as happened with TWA 800 — is a proximity-fused, continuous-rod missile warhead.” As General Partin explained it, the missile would be launched — from land, sea, or air — to intersect with the trajectory of the jet. The missile itself would not necessarily hit the aircraft. The proximity fuse would detonate when the missile approaches the aircraft, causing a long, accordion-like steel rod to unfold at high velocity, slicing the target in two. “I doubt that any of the investigators on the crash have ever seen that kind of damage to a plane before and so would probably not know how to assess the damage even if they were looking at it,” said General Partin. Friendly Fire Shootdown? If, indeed, that is what happened to TWA 800, then we are looking at much more than your garden variety terrorist operation. The technological sophistication, expense, and bulk of the type of missile General Partin suggests takes us into the realm of either state terrorism — or “friendly fire.” Official explanation is a straw (a few tens of joules in an electrical spark) was enough to break the camels back. Sure it makes sense that a big missile is needed to demolish a giant plane at a moderately high altitude. However i also believe experts like Paul who say you cannot fire a large missile (test, training, accident, other) without maybe a thousand difficult to silence people knowing exactly what happened. My answer is to say that a pissant missile (even dud/inert) has more energy to kick a spark than the fuel pump did. If the official theory (tiny low energy spark causes fuel vapor explosion) can be true, then an inert/dud manpad could cause the same explosion in the center fuel tank. It would also explain the 200+ witnesses who saw the upward streak before the boom (which can’t be explained by the spark theory). ETA: the large missile theory also matches cashill’s statement that the air traffic control recorded an upward moving radar signature ntercept the twa800 before everything disappears. Unfortunately the radar record was (allegedly) seized within hours and it was what (allegedly) sent the clinton-berger directed coverup into motion. It is also a fact that clinton lied every day and sandy berger stole incriminating shit out of the national archives. Those people were literally scumfucks, maybe the worst ever in office. |
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Posted: 7/19/2021 10:30:44 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Lots of people in this thread said that. Most have said specifically that a certain unspecified variant of “stinger” can never hit anything above 10k feet. The most knowledgable single person about manpad in this thread rstel01 said a stinger basically cannot take down a giant plane and he knows a lot more firsthand because he lived it for years: Quoting rstel01 post below (which agrees with most experts - because usually a tiny heat seeker hits one of four hot engines instead of cracking the fucking spine on the center fuel tank when homing on the cooling duct exhaust) Do you not understand the difference between saying a Stinger couldn't bring down TWA 800 because it would be impossible for a Stinger to actually hit an aircraft at that altitude and velocity; and saying that a Stinger is incapable of doing enough damage to bring down an airliner? Plenty of people have said the first, the second is a straw man of your creation. Edit: or at least it was prior to R_S's most recent post. I'll amend that to say no one who's not selling a competing conspiracy theory has claimed that. |
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Posted: 7/19/2021 10:40:15 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ... ETA: the large missile theory also matches cashill’s statement that the air traffic control recorded an upward moving radar signature ntercept the twa800 before everything disappears. ... I have serious doubts about the ability of air traffic control radar to track a missile. |
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Posted: 7/19/2021 10:41:47 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I suspect that a plane cannot gain altitude after its propulsion systems fail. I also suspect that when a massive explosion occurs, a good deal of debris immediately and violently changes in trajectory and velocity....resulting in a return to earth in a place not consistent with the air speed and vector of the craft before the explosion. You suspect incorrectly. An aircraft certainly CAN gain altitude after the propulsion fails, simply by exchanging airspeed for altitude. It will slow down while doing so, and at some point the nose will drop (no pun intended for this situation) as the lift decreases (lift for a given angle of attack is based on the square of the indicated airspeed, so dropping speed to 1/2 decreases lift to 1/4), OR the wing will stall as the angle of attack increases beyond the stall point, at which point the wings will produce almost no lift - making the plane a (not so simple) ballistic object. As for debris from an explosion - MOST (certainly not all) debris that separates from an aircraft will be fairly light, as the only really dense parts that tend to stay relatively intact are the landing gear and engines. The rest of the stuff will be sheets of metal, plastic, etc. that will simply tumble and drift with the wind - it tends to leave a trail, very wide when dropped at high altitude, and narrowing as the source gets closer to the ground. Of course, in this case it then lands on the water, where it sinks even more slowly and is affected by water currents even more so than air currents, or floats on the surface and is affected by both wind and water currents. Mike |
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Posted: 7/19/2021 10:47:09 PM EDT
[#50]
Yes, the Navy totally did this. Would have gotten away with it, if not for crack internet investigators.
 Attached File |
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