Tesla has nothing that I would want.   Give me a Toyota Sequoia class EV or maybe 4Runner that does not look queer and I will drive it.

It won't be parked in my garage but I will drive it.  I have plenty of extension cords.

Pickup trucks are seen many times more than Teslas around me.

Ok ,You are Gay,Happy good fellow.

Growth can be painful. That's a matter of fact. EV's are at best toy presently for those who are most likely neck beards types.. Fun and fast my ass. Replace a power unit lol. I have family in the ev business and now even they are concerned with some of the hurdles.

Your buddy sounds like a retard.  And retards make retarded decisions.  That doesn't mean there is no market for Tesla's, it means your buddy Is a retard.

It will be very soon, Tesla is opening up a refining plant and there’s about to be a lithium mine in Nevada.
That keeps it very local

Ford should have had a purpose built version of the Maverick which was full EV.  A small truck that had good range and which was economical.

Name a US car company that hasn’t slurped up government cash. Ford just “borrowed” 9 billion dollars.

GM and Chrysler were bailed out in 2008 to the tune of $13 billion. Stock and Bond holders were screwed, but the unions were also floated.

A free market would have seen the big 3 sold at auction and absorbed into other companies.

Tesla is the only U.S. car manufacturer actually turning a decent profit selling EVs. Ford is losing more money than it takes in on EVs. GM isn’t far behind. GM and Ford each have over $100 billion dollars in debt. Guess who picks up that tab when they go under?

Not to mention that Tesla wasn't eligible for the tax credit for years and during that time they still had a 3 month wait for new vehicle orders.

I wish other automakers would adopt the Tesla ordering strategy.  When I ordered my Model 3, it literally took me 15 minutes to order the car, when I went to pick it up....I was at the Tesla service center for roughly 30 minutes.

The reason You can get a Tesla without a dealer is simply because they never had one to begin with. There are a pile of "anti trust" laws in various states that force the other major automakers to have a 3rd party dealer network. In addition, dealers are politically powerful. Local communities stand to lose a pile of tax revenue if they went away.

There are 18,271 US auto dealers Moving 12.45 million cars in 2022.

Tesla sold 1.3 million cars in 2022 with 130 stores. Hell 13 states won't even allow Tesla to set up stores. The hilarious part is Tesla is now setting up stores on Tribal lands to get around state laws.

Chevrolet sold 1.5 million cars in 2022 with 2700 US (Chevrolet branded) dealers.

Which system do you think is more efficient?

In the 1920's electric cars were 1/3 of the market steam was 1/3 . Internal combustion won. Now the government wants to decide what you drive.

As in the rest of my life.

Don't care about existence.

I'm talking about industrial scale production.

Electric cars, vertical landing rockets, and communications satellite networks existed before Tesla, Space X, and Starlink produced enough numbers of each of those things to change the world.

Nuclear power should be playing ads showing how much carbon and other pollution could of been avoided if nuclear plant construction  in the United States had displaced all the fossil fuel plants.

China is building 20 nuclear power plants right now.

We are covering the plains with stupid wind mills.

Big three didn't solve panel gap in the 30's or even the 21st century.

Tesla beat everyone else by caring about the things that matter and decided to deal with panel gap and paint jobs latter since they were going to go with a completely different production method anyway.

Why didn't the scale work for all the other manufacturers?

A nuclear power plant was brought online this year and another will come online next year in the US.  Several SMRs are scheduled for construction with the first brought online in 2028.

Total boomer cars. Especially the ugly ass 4Runner that still looks like it was made in the 80s. Hate to break it to you, but you like queer cars...

I'm not ready for an EV yet but Tesla is way ahead of the game, especially considering they sell based on word of mouth and the cool factor among those under 40. I may not own a Tesla but I sure as hell own a bunch of TSLA.

Based on the retards in the UAW I would never buy a car from the big 3.

There was never a comparable rocket to falcon 9 to VTOL.

Still isn’t

I’m surprised one of the big 3 doesn’t just eject on all the R&D and sign a licensing deal with China’s NIO to build and distribute their cars in North America. I’m sure GM’s Mary Barra probably has Chinese officials numbers in her phone that could make it happen.

NIO has worked around the EV range issue with quick change batteries that can be swapped in about 5 minutes at their battery swap stations. I believe Musk had previously said this wasn’t feasible.

Battery swapping non commercial vehicles is a non starter.

There isn't enough demand for pure electric vehicles for the bigger manufacturers to profit off of them.  Tesla is going to smoke them every time especially with lowering prices.  

The smart car companies are building hybrids instead of trying to go full electric.    We'll be bailing out the big three with our tax money again soon if they put too much into this electric shit.

Happen now just not here, takes about 6 minutes.

Their experience doesn't mean shit honestly.  Elon is better at manufacturing than them. He doesn't just do what has always been done.  He doesn't have to run anything by a union.  He seems the most efficient way to build a good vehicle and does it.  Rapidly.  

The only advantage big manufacturers have is volume production but the market for electrics isn't big enough for that advantage to work for them considering Tesla dominates it already.  

It's not.

That's a mere pittance compared to the construction of the mid-60's until the late 70's early 80's.

https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/nuclear/us-nuclear-industry.php

The Delta Clipper proved the concept back in the 90's. And that's was all it was allowed to accomplish.

However, the existence of a thing showing a concept can work is extremely valuable in the motivation and investment in future endeavors.

Many advanced reactors were developed, built, and operated at experimental stages in the 60's, 70's and even 80's.

And that development was allowed to falter just as the delta clipper was allowed to falter and just as GM's EV was allowed to falter.

Education, shipbuilding, machine tool building, heavy industries, and numerous other American advancements were allowed to whither and falter.

The primary cause has been a decline in the quality of leadership at the top of each sector, each corporation as well as the political, judicial, and bureaucratic levels of leadership.

The success of SpaceX, Tesla, and Starlink could not have been produced by the common variety of limited vision, self serving leadership that dominates most of the country.

In effect, I agree with your statement 100%.

However, the point I emphasize is No Elon, No SpaceX.

Delta clipper proved that.

My other point is that Nuclear Power, produced at actual national scale relevance, needs Elon or someone like him.

Those numbers are deceiving I'd be surprised if evs break a 1m a this year and based on price cuts and slow sales I'm guessing the plateau.   Because those that wanted one got one and the rest of the buyers either don't want one or can't afford one.

Attached File

My Tacoma was pretty easy, ordered it online, 18 days later it showed up and Dealer sent me pics.

Came back from Germany and the next day went to the dealer.

Took it for a test drive and less than two hours later was driving away with it.

Plug in hybrid is not an ev nice try though.   I've notice they're lumping cars like the prius in with Tesla.

We get it we see your avatar evs are your thing congrats but those that understand the market and supply chain know there are not sufficient raw materials to support a fleet conversion.....thats why you see the change in data presentation to include hybrids. Gotta keep that propaganda going.  


https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/20/cars/electric-cars-sales-gas-cars-dg/index.html

This says EVs might break 1m this year.  

It's tough to find data that doesn't include "PHEV"s AKA plug in hybrid vehicles. Good work finding a better article than I did. As far as EVs being "my thing", I'm interested in them from the viewpoint of lower operating costs and maintenance. I own a Ford Lightning obviously. It's the best EV to make direct Comparisions to traditional vehicles because it's literally the same body as a standard gas F150 dropped on an EV specific frame. It works for what I need a vehicle for, and it costs less to operate by far. I live in the NW where electricity is relatively inexpensive, and fuel is expensive compared to the rest of the country.  Is the state governments thumb on the scale in favor of EV right now? Sure it is. But I live in reality not some version of perfection that exists only in fantasy.

I personally don't agree with the "ICE bans by 2035" that many states are doing, but at the same time you need to understand the reason CARB does this. CA has been attempting to "ban" gas cars as far back as 1990. It's the tactic they use to push manufacturers as hard as possible towards their goal (Zero Emissions). CA is the largest auto market in the US and if CA demands it manufacturers will attempt to produce vehicles that meet the mandate. The rest of the US also gets them simply because it makes more sense at this stage to produce vehicles that meet requirements of the tightest state. Even more so today now that 14 states adhere to those requirements.

Will every car be electric in 2035? No of course not but by publishing the demand you direct billions of private dollars to chase that requirement. And if ONE of your competitors is successful and you're not you just lost a massive market share. This is where we are now with Tesla. They did what every major manufacturer said was impossible. Building mass market EVs at a profit. Prior to this major manufacturers built a few thousand "compliance cars" to send to CA for ZEV credits to avoid fines. They were never intended to be profitable, or mass produced. Major manufacturers now have no choice they must invest in EVs and attempt to catch up or they risk being crushed by Tesla who makes more money per vehicle than they do. Investors would like other companies to chase those returns.

I have no issue debating EVs here but the majority of people pontificating have no experience with EVs nor can they use facts in their arguments. They simply want to satisfy their preconceived notions that "EVs suck" and "will never work."

The Ford Model T was introduced in 1908. There were 200k cars in the US. 7 years later there was 2.25 million. As far back as 1920 there were fears that the US would run out of oil in 10 years. Obviously, that didn't happen. More lithium will be mined when its profitable to extract it.

Mining more lithium when it's needed? Maybe.
The U.S. has three lithium mining operations trying to start, all three are currently waiting for licenses etc that are tied up in multiple lawsuits being brought against them. One lawsuit is by Indians claiming the ground is sacred, two lawsuits are saying the environmental statements weren't done correctly. Two other lawsuits are saying there is an endangered plant growing at the site, one of these had the subspecies promoted to being a full separate species so the people bringing the lawsuit can say the plant grows nowhere else, the other is for a plant the really doesn't grow anywhere else, but that the plans by the mining company to spread the plants to several sites are inadequate and shouldn't be done. I expect at least one, and maybe two, of the mining sites will be declared off limits to any mining forever by the judges hearing these lawsuits.

Which begs the question if the environmentalist were so sure evs will save us why are they blocking the change over to EVs?   They block oil and gas production and now they're blocking battery production and nmiys no wonder people think it's about mobility control and not the environment.  


But at the end of the day it's not just lithium it's nickel cobalt copper etc we need a whole lot more of.  When I asked a guy at GM about batteries he gave me a line of bullshit about we've got sources for more than just lithium batteries.    I'm still waiting to see his implied new battery tech.


Fact is hybrids are probably the best and most likely bridge tech out there to reduce emissions.   You can build a dozen hybrids vs 1 ev with the same battery raw materials but damn they're gonna make cars even more expensive.  

Yep, gay

I see that model t comparison a lot and I'm not convinced it applies here.  The car was a leap in transportation over the horse.  The ev is and evolution and I'm not convinced absent some new battery tech it will get more that a small market share penetration for small urban passenger transport.  Add in that heavy residential penetration will require massive upgrades to electrical systems and there simply isn't the capital available.  

For example one power company is spending $3-$4B a year to keep up with expansion in North Texas and that calculus doesn't include heavy penetration of EVs.  If that happens in his words we don't have the money plus with the renewable push its getting harder to get the power to the load.  There are solutions but where is the capital going to come from?  The feds can't keep printing and at some point we're going to have to make some tough choices about capital allocations.  

Tesla makes good money but thier margins are coming down as they have to cut prices and they will face more pressure as they're forced to redesign models that haven't changed much.  That margin chasing is a fools errand as the other manufacturers are losing thier ass because they don't have the carbon credit offset sales to help finance thier ev expenses like Tesla did.  


I won't make predictions about who goes out of b usiness but Look up failed auto companies in the US.  The list is daunting.  Some companies aren't going to survive this policy debacle the only question is who and who gets bailed out.    

Now let’s see it do 3 more consecutive laps without charging.  They may be fast, but they don’t have soul.  There’s just something about an ICE

Musk is put off by the anti-nuke bias in America, and he believes solar will ultimately be cheaper.
And Starship will get many many tons to Mars, so he can bring all the solar panels he wants.
Given a few years to build infrastructure and they will produce solar panels and the electronics on Mars.

Thing is, Tesla is making the battery pack a structural member. No hot swap. And charge time will only go down as range goes up.

Is this a new definition of "rivals" because those aren't "rivals" those are "pack of losers fighting over scraps."

"Tesla" became synonymous with "EV". When someone says that they are buying an EV, the usual response is "which model of Tesla are you getting?"

How many 4Runner did Toyota sell in 2022?

Toyota sold 121,023 4Runner in 2022. In 2021, Toyota sold 144,696 4Runner. They sold 23,673 more units in year 2021 compared to 2022 with a percent loss of 16.36% YoY.

Source


Seems like a lot of vehicles sold for a queer looking car.

Is someone going to put these stations along the interstates every 50-100 miles?   I doubt it.  It makes no sense.   Quick 15-20 minute charge on a Tesla supercharger and off you go.

Show me data that battery EV sales have plateaued.   I don't believe that they have.

Nio has almost 1600 of them in China and they’re building them in Europe now as they start to move into that market. In the partnership with an American legacy company I suggested I’d imagine they’d put them at dealerships first then go from there.

My post was just suggesting that legacy companies could save billions chasing Tesla by just partnering with someone already in the game who wants into the North American market.

It would cost billions, not save billions.

Anything but a Tesla Y.
Those cars are hideous.

Oh Snap!!!