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Posted: 1/28/2022 3:53:04 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is that drawing on the physical material to be cut into the part? This all relates pretty simply to constructive possession. The ATF said years ago, you can't even put a fucking etching on a lower reciever for the 3rd hole.... so why some dumbass would go do the same thing with a LL is beyond me. The NFA should be repealed, but there is a reality here whether we agree with it or not. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Arguably I'm a criminal because I have the photo of the keycard saved on my computer, since drawings of machine guns are illegal now. Absolutely fucking ridiculous. Is that drawing on the physical material to be cut into the part? This all relates pretty simply to constructive possession. The ATF said years ago, you can't even put a fucking etching on a lower reciever for the 3rd hole.... so why some dumbass would go do the same thing with a LL is beyond me. The NFA should be repealed, but there is a reality here whether we agree with it or not. Do you own both bleach and ammonia cleaning products? That's constructive possession. 
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Posted: 1/28/2022 3:58:38 PM EDT
[#2]
How is this any different than those pipes with Sten blueprints printed onto them? Those have been sold for like 20 years when surplus kits started coming in.
Hell, there’s some in gunbroker right now. |
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Posted: 1/28/2022 4:16:08 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A thousand pardons to Firefly fans. I was a bit punchy last night. I meant brownshirts. Also, Americans really need to nullify all these stupid, ineffective and unconstitutional firearm and possession laws. Jury duty is important. It is probably the only way we will change the laws, since the politicians and judges are mostly power-hungry and corrupt big gov types. To quote the aformentioned fandom, "Thats what government is for, gettin in a mans way" also "A government is a body of people, usually, notably, ungoverned" |
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Posted: 1/28/2022 4:20:37 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you are doing it to evade discovery of another illegal activity, yes. So they have to prove intent. Which they can't really, but they can lie and say they think he was up to no good. Which is why "intent" based laws are BS to begin with |
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Posted: 1/28/2022 4:23:18 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No worries my man, GFM link added to OP  Appreciate the thread. Hopefully our (big) little community here can play a role in helping CRS fight this bullshit. |
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Posted: 1/28/2022 4:25:36 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: NFA constructive Posession is LAW, a rule/procedure would clarify or interpret the law, and the 3rd hole opinion was lettered by the ATF to an individual.. Then you have some solid court cases like you mentioned that have empowered the ATF. I said it before, these guys are fooking morons for what they did. They should have sold a plastic stencils or stickers, and offered the sheet metal seperate. ATF has not and wouldn't touch the concept of making basic information illegal, the law says "parts". So what exactly does this law say about constructive possession? We can pull this from the ATF rules... but thats NOT a law. Held, a firearm, as defined by the National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3), is made when unassembled parts are placed in close proximity in such a way that they: (a)Serve no useful purpose other than to make a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length (e.g., a receiver, an attachable shoulder stock, and barrel of less than 16 inches in length); or (b) Convert a complete weapon into such an NFA firearm, including – (1) A pistol and attachable shoulder stock; and (2) A rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, and an attachable barrel of less than 16 inches in length. Such weapons must be registered and are subject to all requirements of the NFA. |
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Posted: 1/28/2022 4:27:17 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How is this any different than those pipes with Sten blueprints printed onto them? Those have been sold for like 20 years when surplus kits started coming in. Hell, there’s some in gunbroker right now. They used to sell them with the ports/slots etched into them ..... ATF put an end to those about 10 years or so ago |
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Posted: 1/28/2022 4:29:45 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: NFA constructive Posession is LAW, a rule/procedure would clarify or interpret the law, and the 3rd hole opinion was lettered by the ATF to an individual.. Then you have some solid court cases like you mentioned that have empowered the ATF. I said it before, these guys are fooking morons for what they did. They should have sold a plastic stencils or stickers, and offered the sheet metal seperate. ATF has not and wouldn't touch the concept of making basic information illegal, the law says "parts". Constructive possession as described, sound like shit law. ::EDIT:: A drawing on a blank sheet of material ain't no "parts." You would need to cut out everything, assemble it, AND install it to actually make a machine gun. Which on top of which, SHOULD be ENTIRELY legal. FATF. |
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Posted: 1/28/2022 4:44:13 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I do not have a pattern of mocking gun owners and conservatives. I own more guns than most, and I fall on the right side of the political spectrum--If you're truly stalking my post history as you say, then you you've seen where I've said plenty of times on this website that I vote straight ticket Republican (and twice voted for Trump). Doesn't have to be an insult to violate CoC #6. It was an attack. What you wrote was an attack on me in an attempt to provoke a negative response: "Oh wait, you don’t give a shit. You want to paint him as an idiot criminal because that’s what you do to gun owners" They were cash transactions. Page 14 of the court filing linked on the first page of this thread. Six separate times in a nine-day period, dude pulled out $9,000.00 cash. All the details are in the document, should you care to inform yourself. When you have a silver star on your account, you get to make notes about members. It looks like a text bubble with three dots. You have had a note that keeps being true. No stalking necessary. It is a great feature. It allows me to remember why I dislike certain people. Now, posting the exact note might be against CoC 6, but the fact that you think I violated it only further solidifies my believe, is that you are here to troll and report people who confront you. I don’t have time to scour the documents again, but are you trying to tell me that Matt Hoover withdrew cash out of his bank account in $9k increments 6 times? Because withdrawing isn’t structuring with documented money. |
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Posted: 1/28/2022 4:47:38 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When you have a silver star on your account, you get to make notes about members. It looks like a text bubble with three dots. You have had a note that keeps being true. No stalking necessary. It is a great feature. It allows me to remember why I dislike certain people. Now, posting the exact note might be against CoC 6, but the fact that you think I violated it only further solidifies my believe, is that you are here to troll and report people who confront you. I don’t have time to scour the documents again, but are you trying to tell me that Matt Hoover withdrew cash out of his bank account in $9k increments 6 times? Because withdrawing isn’t structuring with documented money. Damn... now I know why I'm not on your Christmas card list... |
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Posted: 1/28/2022 4:52:10 PM EDT
[#11]
But they're not machinegun parts. It's a rectangle made out of metal. The fact that it has the outline of a part on it does not mean it IS that part.
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Posted: 1/28/2022 5:00:38 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How would he be avoiding tax? That's my point |
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Posted: 1/28/2022 5:01:26 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: But they're not machinegun parts. It's a rectangle made out of metal. The fact that it has the outline of a part on it does not mean it IS that part. |
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Posted: 1/28/2022 5:35:43 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It ceased to be just 1A right after he started manufacturing, selling and pimping out his auto cards. Had he just made the video of how to make a lighting link, or clothes hanger, or whatever item its not an issue, and there are plenty of those out there.  Attached File |
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Posted: 1/28/2022 5:42:24 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I do not have a pattern of mocking gun owners and conservatives. I own more guns than most, and I fall on the right side of the political spectrum--If you're truly stalking my post history as you say, then you you've seen where I've said plenty of times on this website that I vote straight ticket Republican (and twice voted for Trump). That says more about the Overton Window than it says about you. 
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Posted: 1/28/2022 5:48:49 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: When you have a silver star on your account, you get to make notes about members. It looks like a text bubble with three dots. You have had a note that keeps being true. No stalking necessary. It is a great feature. It allows me to remember why I dislike certain people. Now, posting the exact note might be against CoC 6, but the fact that you think I violated it only further solidifies my believe, is that you are here to troll and report people who confront you. I don’t have time to scour the documents again, but are you trying to tell me that Matt Hoover withdrew cash out of his bank account in $9k increments 6 times? Because withdrawing isn’t structuring with documented money. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I do not have a pattern of mocking gun owners and conservatives. I own more guns than most, and I fall on the right side of the political spectrum--If you're truly stalking my post history as you say, then you you've seen where I've said plenty of times on this website that I vote straight ticket Republican (and twice voted for Trump). Doesn't have to be an insult to violate CoC #6. It was an attack. What you wrote was an attack on me in an attempt to provoke a negative response: "Oh wait, you don’t give a shit. You want to paint him as an idiot criminal because that’s what you do to gun owners" They were cash transactions. Page 14 of the court filing linked on the first page of this thread. Six separate times in a nine-day period, dude pulled out $9,000.00 cash. All the details are in the document, should you care to inform yourself. When you have a silver star on your account, you get to make notes about members. It looks like a text bubble with three dots. You have had a note that keeps being true. No stalking necessary. It is a great feature. It allows me to remember why I dislike certain people. Now, posting the exact note might be against CoC 6, but the fact that you think I violated it only further solidifies my believe, is that you are here to troll and report people who confront you. I don’t have time to scour the documents again, but are you trying to tell me that Matt Hoover withdrew cash out of his bank account in $9k increments 6 times? Because withdrawing isn’t structuring with documented money. HOW ABOUT YOU TWO JUST AGREE TO DISAGREE AND MOVE ON, INSTEAD OF MOVING CLOSER TO SANCTIONS? 
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Posted: 1/28/2022 5:51:47 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What are you talking about? Clothes hangers are not an NFA item. You took a leap off into the deep end on that one.. come back when you have taken your meds. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Wait, so if he made a video on clothes hangar auto sears, and also sold clothes hangers, in your mind that's a crime? What are you talking about? Clothes hangers are not an NFA item. You took a leap off into the deep end on that one.. come back when you have taken your meds. It pains me that people like you sit on juries. |
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Posted: 1/28/2022 5:58:21 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: NFA constructive Posession is LAW, a rule/procedure would clarify or interpret the law, and the 3rd hole opinion was lettered by the ATF to an individual.. Then you have some solid court cases like you mentioned that have empowered the ATF. I said it before, these guys are fooking morons for what they did. They should have sold a plastic stencils or stickers, and offered the sheet metal seperate. ATF has not and wouldn't touch the concept of making basic information illegal, the law says "parts". Lol. If the bold is true, then why would the red be? |
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Posted: 1/28/2022 5:59:32 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do you own both bleach and ammonia cleaning products? That's constructive possession. What exactly am I in constructive possession of? Chlorine gas isn't illegal to produce or own. |
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Posted: 1/28/2022 6:13:04 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So they have to prove intent. Which they can't really, but they can lie and say they think he was up to no good. Which is why "intent" based laws are BS to begin with The clarification is usually found somewhere it says "with no other useful purpose". They don't have to prove intent, they just have to convince a jury the item sold serves no purpose other than being completed into a LL. While the NFA is a load of horseshit, there is a ton of procedural rules, letters and judicial rulings to keep yourself from getting tied up in said horseshit. Even a crap lawyer would have advised these individuals to at least prepare themselves for a legal challenge. We have everything we need to know the ATF would go after them, as they have done in somewhat similar situations. |
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Posted: 1/28/2022 6:19:05 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I double dog dare you to have it tattooed on your arm. Let the ATF confiscate that! Ouch!  Attached File |
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Posted: 1/28/2022 6:24:18 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So they have to prove intent. Which they can't really, but they can lie and say they think he was up to no good. Which is why "intent" based laws are BS to begin with Who said anything about intent? They pulled the cash to keep the Feds from freezing their access to it, because once they are indicted on manufacturing and selling illegal NFA items, the cash earned is now part of the investigation and subject to confiscation until the charges are resolved. There could be a number of issues on the Tax side of the issue as well. Pulling cash under the reportable amount isn't the issue, not sure why it's being portrayed that way. But they are being investigated for crimes where cash was exchanged, where it entered and exited physical banks accounts... that falls under money laundering/wire fraud. People Hide that by doing transaction that aren't reported... |
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Posted: 1/28/2022 6:26:52 PM EDT
[#23]
What a joke. Complete out of control.
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Posted: 1/28/2022 6:37:37 PM EDT
[#24]
The atf is out of control.
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Posted: 1/28/2022 6:39:28 PM EDT
[#25]
I don’t think a “structuring” charge would stick unless they were convicted on a related charge like laundering, tax evasion, fraud, racketeering ect...
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Posted: 1/28/2022 7:07:07 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I was thinking. If I were to get an Autokeycard tattoo would I be a machine gun? If someone gave you one while passed out without your consent would you then be in possession? |
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Posted: 1/28/2022 7:28:07 PM EDT
[#27]
If someone designs a shirt with "ATF says this shirt is a machine gun" with the drawings/blueprints on them I'd buy one to support that court case.
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Posted: 1/28/2022 7:36:52 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What a joke. Complete out of control. Yeah!! Welcome AFT enthusiast! Dobermann or Rottweiler? |
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Posted: 1/28/2022 7:49:50 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted: PDF warning, it's the charging documents Who am I talking about? This guy, some of you call him "youtube Fred Durst": https://yt3.ggpht.com/ytc/AKedOLSK6Cym4XWeqD9pKQnoBNbVDQ2YuHhUV9-683EhYA=s900-c-k-c0x00ffffff-no-rj He was indicted today for the horrific crime of conspiring with another man, Kris Ervin, to advertise and sell "auto key cards", which the ATF is claiming are machine guns. What is an auto key card? It's a credit card sized piece of sheet metal with a drawing of a lightning link on it: https://www.pewpewtactical.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/AutoKeyCard-Armslist.png No, it isn't "pop out" style like a model airplane. Yes, it requires additional machining to finish, which would be illegal without an SOT. The ATF has indicted two men based on one of them selling DRAWINGS of a "machine gun", and the other advertising them. This is a massive violation of not just the 2A, but the 1A as well. I'm a fan of the CRS Firearms channel, I know the guy Matt does have a particular style that some may find annoying, but his videos are pretty informative and he's pretty based. This is absolutely ridiculous and cannot be allowed to stand.  Edit: added video with explanation on his channel from DLD After Dark, John Crump, and Matt's wife.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vu6sKcy3_4QHere is the GoFundMe for Matt’s legal defense! Link Is that photo to scale? Asking for a friend. |
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Posted: 1/28/2022 8:34:03 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't think you understand the term conspiracy, nor have you read the charging documents. They list them as "Machine gun conversion devices constituting machine guns" and while left in the blank card form no, they are not conversion devices. But when you tell someone and show someone exactly how to make that item you just sold into a lighting link, that act is conspiracy. Small Arms Review published a magazine article with the LL, which explained how obvious and drop-in they are. Then they sold that magazine to thousands. Why didn’t they get busted? |
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Posted: 1/28/2022 9:20:13 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Small Arms Review published a magazine article with the LL, which explained how obvious and drop-in they are. Then they sold that magazine to thousands. Why didn’t they get busted? If that's a serious question I'm not sure what to say without being an ass. Did they provided customers of the magazine with the dimensional schematics printed right on the material used to produce a LL? The ATF does not care if you have detailed schematics or blue prints of regulated parts, let alone an article that simply discusses functionality of said part. Dimples or etching directly on a piece of material which provides instructions to complete it, in their view, constitutes intent to make a regulated part. While I find the NFA despicable the reasoning above is logical. I don't think playing dumb would really work here. The ATF reasons that once a piece of material is marked, "production" has begun. |
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Posted: 1/28/2022 9:24:45 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What exactly am I in constructive possession of? Chlorine gas isn't illegal to produce or own. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Do you own both bleach and ammonia cleaning products? That's constructive possession. What exactly am I in constructive possession of? Chlorine gas isn't illegal to produce or own. Domestic terrorism. |
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Posted: 1/28/2022 9:34:12 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The clarification is usually found somewhere it says "with no other useful purpose". They don't have to prove intent, they just have to convince a jury the item sold serves no purpose other than being completed into a LL. While the NFA is a load of horseshit, there is a ton of procedural rules, letters and judicial rulings to keep yourself from getting tied up in said horseshit. Even a crap lawyer would have advised these individuals to at least prepare themselves for a legal challenge. We have everything we need to know the ATF would go after them, as they have done in somewhat similar situations. I was referencing the "structuring" BS, but that "no other useful purpose" is BS as well. Its still "intent". How does the JURY or COURT know what useful purposes it might be put to. Could be a coaster, could be a shim for a table, etc. It still comes back to "intent". |
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Posted: 1/28/2022 9:49:17 PM EDT
[#34]
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Posted: 1/28/2022 10:07:40 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I was referencing the "structuring" BS, but that "no other useful purpose" is BS as well. Its still "intent". How does the JURY or COURT know what useful purposes it might be put to. Could be a coaster, could be a shim for a table, etc. It still comes back to "intent". Quote HistoryQuoted: I was referencing the "structuring" BS, but that "no other useful purpose" is BS as well. Its still "intent". How does the JURY or COURT know what useful purposes it might be put to. Could be a coaster, could be a shim for a table, etc. It still comes back to "intent". This. Laws and LE agencies inferring intent in order to stick a crime on innocent people is fucking disgusting. Quoted: If that's a serious question I'm not sure what to say without being an ass. Did they provided customers of the magazine with the dimensional schematics printed right on the material used to produce a LL? The ATF does not care if you have detailed schematics or blue prints of regulated parts, let alone an article that simply discusses functionality of said part. Dimples or etching directly on a piece of material which provides instructions to complete it, in their view, constitutes intent to make a regulated part. While I find the NFA despicable the reasoning above is logical. I don't think playing dumb would really work here. The ATF reasons that once a piece of material is marked, "production" has begun. The problem is that there are actual statutes that outline what is and is not a machine gun, and this meets none of them. If you can't see how ATF stretching their view to include anything they see fit as some sort of illegal device, then I can see how you might say that illogical things are logical; but the fact remains that stretching the definition of machine gun to include devices that can allow a semiauto to fire multiple shots with a single funcion of the trigger *only after cutting, bending, and assembling* them is far outside their authority, and sets a really terrible precedent. Because you can make a coat hanger do the same thing, after *cutting and bending* it too. You should stop simping for tyrants. |
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Posted: 1/28/2022 10:15:14 PM EDT
[#36]
In for $20 and fuck the ATF. Yes, I mean you too agent cockbag who is reading this. I hope you get ass cancer.
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Posted: 1/28/2022 10:22:36 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If that's a serious question I'm not sure what to say without being an ass. Did they provided customers of the magazine with the dimensional schematics printed right on the material used to produce a LL? The ATF does not care if you have detailed schematics or blue prints of regulated parts, let alone an article that simply discusses functionality of said part. Dimples or etching directly on a piece of material which provides instructions to complete it, in their view, constitutes intent to make a regulated part. While I find the NFA despicable the reasoning above is logical. I don't think playing dumb would really work here. The ATF reasons that once a piece of material is marked, "production" has begun. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Small Arms Review published a magazine article with the LL, which explained how obvious and drop-in they are. Then they sold that magazine to thousands. Why didn’t they get busted? If that's a serious question I'm not sure what to say without being an ass. Did they provided customers of the magazine with the dimensional schematics printed right on the material used to produce a LL? The ATF does not care if you have detailed schematics or blue prints of regulated parts, let alone an article that simply discusses functionality of said part. Dimples or etching directly on a piece of material which provides instructions to complete it, in their view, constitutes intent to make a regulated part. While I find the NFA despicable the reasoning above is logical. I don't think playing dumb would really work here. The ATF reasons that once a piece of material is marked, "production" has begun. No it's not. |
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Posted: 1/28/2022 10:22:45 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Dimples or etching directly on a piece of material which provides instructions to complete it, in their view, constitutes intent to make a regulated part. While I find the NFA despicable the reasoning above is logical. I don't think playing dumb would really work here. The ATF reasons that once a piece of material is marked, "production" has begun. There's your problem... there should be no "in their view"... there should only be "based on statute". So any agency that is allowed to make up its own laws is a problem... congress abdicated their responsibility and should be hauled over the coals for doing so. |
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Posted: 1/28/2022 10:51:17 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There's your problem... there should be no "in their view"... there should only be "based on statute". So any agency that is allowed to make up its own laws is a problem... congress abdicated their responsibility and should be hauled over the coals for doing so. The ATF makes the rules, enforces the rules, and is the technical tester to determine if the thing they investigated based on the rules they made up is illegal. 
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Posted: 1/28/2022 11:31:46 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: hey hey hey, BrownSHIRTS. Browncoats are Firefly fans Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: So does that case decision mean we can, by law, manufacture machine guns again and the FJB browncoats can't do squat about it? @HenryKnoxFineBooks hey hey hey, BrownSHIRTS. Browncoats are Firefly fans  Attached FileBrowncoats kewl. Brown Shirts not. |
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Posted: 1/28/2022 11:34:43 PM EDT
[#41]
Not sure what machine guns but look at the wot triggers on the picture. This was today
https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdfl/pr/south-florida-federally-licensed-gun-shop-owner-and-employee-charged-illegal-sale |
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Posted: 1/28/2022 11:50:58 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This. Laws and LE agencies inferring intent in order to stick a crime on innocent people is fucking disgusting. The problem is that there are actual statutes that outline what is and is not a machine gun, and this meets none of them. If you can't see how ATF stretching their view to include anything they see fit as some sort of illegal device, then I can see how you might say that illogical things are logical; but the fact remains that stretching the definition of machine gun to include devices that can allow a semiauto to fire multiple shots with a single funcion of the trigger *only after cutting, bending, and assembling* them is far outside their authority, and sets a really terrible precedent. Because you can make a coat hanger do the same thing, after *cutting and bending* it too. You should stop simping for tyrants. The law doesn't state the part must be operational or complete... see you too are interpreting the law in favor. If the ATF clarifies what IS a part that can be used to convert a weapon, stating a piece a material that is marked for completion and has begun to be manufactured isn't entirely outside of the statute. It is however, an interpretation. You will have to rely on which side can convince a jury its either a piece of metal with some other purpose or it's a marked part that aides in completion of an NFA item. ATF can't use procedures as the ground work for a conviction, they would still have to prosecute based on the statutory language. People have successfully won cases that go against procedural rules, they aren't the law. They simply help people understand when an agency will go after you. Their is nothing illogical about this, and it's like we are relying on playing dumb as some kind of winning argument in a court room. There needs to be clarification on what constitutes a part so people can have an idea when they will run foul of the law, specifically charged with a crime.. They stuck their line on marking already processed materials so the part can be made functional with minimal effort. Some of the LL they sold were precut, and required a few tabs clipped to punch the part out. If I bought a complete lighting link, that still required to be bent correctly to function, is that a part covered? Or a DIAS that isn't assembled and required the holes drilled, but marked where to drill? How would you know otherwise without the enforcing agency clarifying what is or isn't considered a part? Without a strict statutory definitions it's open for ANYONE to interpret... only thing thst matters is which interpretation is going to convince a jury. |
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Posted: 1/29/2022 1:37:12 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The law doesn't state the part must be operational or complete... see you too are interpreting the law in favor. If the ATF clarifies what IS a part that can be used to convert a weapon, stating a piece a material that is marked for completion and has begun to be manufactured isn't entirely outside of the statute. It is however, an interpretation. You will have to rely on which side can convince a jury its either a piece of metal with some other purpose or it's a marked part that aides in completion of an NFA item. ATF can't use procedures as the ground work for a conviction, they would still have to prosecute based on the statutory language. People have successfully won cases that go against procedural rules, they aren't the law. They simply help people understand when an agency will go after you. Their is nothing illogical about this, and it's like we are relying on playing dumb as some kind of winning argument in a court room. There needs to be clarification on what constitutes a part so people can have an idea when they will run foul of the law, specifically charged with a crime.. They stuck their line on marking already processed materials so the part can be made functional with minimal effort. Some of the LL they sold were precut, and required a few tabs clipped to punch the part out. If I bought a complete lighting link, that still required to be bent correctly to function, is that a part covered? Or a DIAS that isn't assembled and required the holes drilled, but marked where to drill? How would you know otherwise without the enforcing agency clarifying what is or isn't considered a part? Without a strict statutory definitions it's open for ANYONE to interpret... only thing thst matters is which interpretation is going to convince a jury. The law states the part must be the part and not something else that can be fashioned into that part. Reading the language isn't interpretation; and the idea that plain verbiage needs "interpreted" is the whole reason the ATF has been able to contrive their own laws from whole cloth in the first place. The ATF has been creatively stretching the definition of things in order to prosecute "crimes" they know they won't be able to secure a conviction on for years. That doesn't matter to them because they have unlimited money, and if they are only able to bankrupt their target through legal expenditures it is all the same to them. People have successfully won cases going against procedural rules because procedural rules aren't laws and ATF isn't Congress. They know they have no case, but they hope to settle and get a conviction, but if not then making whatever law abiding citizen is their target for the week spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on legal fees is great too. Speaking of creatively stretching definitions "begun to be manufactured" regarding the subject item is just that. It isn't illogical in the sense that their actual purpose is to fuck people who go out of their way to avoid breaking the law. It is illogical if you expect a federal law enforcement agency to follow the law and have integrity-and I do understand that those two things are entirely too much to ask. Statute is clear as to what does and does not constitute a machine gun. The reason it seems that it isn't is that the AFT will confuse the issue depending on the circumstances of individual cases in order to achieve their desired ends. Because they are seeking a predetermined conclusion this invariably leads to conflicting precedents from ATF themselves. E.g. "readily convertible can require a day in a machine shop, or 30 minutes and prefabricated parts. The confusion is caused by the ATF. The statute is clear. |
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Posted: 1/29/2022 1:42:09 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: So does that case decision mean we can, by law, manufacture machine guns again and the FJB browncoats can't do squat about it? @HenryKnoxFineBooks hey hey hey, BrownSHIRTS. Browncoats are Firefly fans /media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/hes_right_you_know-328.jpg Browncoats kewl. Brown Shirts not. Redshirts are always hilarious, though! 
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Posted: 1/29/2022 2:02:30 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If that's a serious question I'm not sure what to say without being an ass. Did they provided customers of the magazine with the dimensional schematics printed right on the material used to produce a LL? The ATF does not care if you have detailed schematics or blue prints of regulated parts, let alone an article that simply discusses functionality of said part. Dimples or etching directly on a piece of material which provides instructions to complete it, in their view, constitutes intent to make a regulated part. While I find the NFA despicable the reasoning above is logical. I don't think playing dumb would really work here. The ATF reasons that once a piece of material is marked, "production" has begun. I’ll use this line the next time my product engineers tell me I’m late for a deadline. “You guys had the blueprint and the material is sitting right over here. It’s as good as finished, right?” But fuck me if their out of spec material ends up with a dimension 1 micron out of tolerance. I’m a legit machinist and could finish one of these. Most people aren’t and they couldn’t make this operate. Therefore this is a 0% MG. |
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Posted: 1/29/2022 6:16:01 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The law states the part must be the part and not something else that can be fashioned into that part. Reading the language isn't interpretation; and the idea that plain verbiage needs "interpreted" is the whole reason the ATF has been able to contrive their own laws from whole cloth in the first place. The ATF has been creatively stretching the definition of things in order to prosecute "crimes" they know they won't be able to secure a conviction on for years. That doesn't matter to them because they have unlimited money, and if they are only able to bankrupt their target through legal expenditures it is all the same to them. People have successfully won cases going against procedural rules because procedural rules aren't laws and ATF isn't Congress. They know they have no case, but they hope to settle and get a conviction, but if not then making whatever law abiding citizen is their target for the week spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on legal fees is great too. Speaking of creatively stretching definitions "begun to be manufactured" regarding the subject item is just that. It isn't illogical in the sense that their actual purpose is to fuck people who go out of their way to avoid breaking the law. It is illogical if you expect a federal law enforcement agency to follow the law and have integrity-and I do understand that those two things are entirely too much to ask. Statute is clear as to what does and does not constitute a machine gun. The reason it seems that it isn't is that the AFT will confuse the issue depending on the circumstances of individual cases in order to achieve their desired ends. Because they are seeking a predetermined conclusion this invariably leads to conflicting precedents from ATF themselves. E.g. "readily convertible can require a day in a machine shop, or 30 minutes and prefabricated parts. The confusion is caused by the ATF. The statute is clear. I think you're on to something here. Compare the Auto Key Card to the FRT situation. The ATF ordered the FRT folks to stop production and deemed the FRT15 trigger a machine gun. Well, no one's in jail over that, but they have the money to support a legal defense. Contrast that against the Auto Key Card folks and further to Matt Hoover, neither of which are particularly successful. They drop a heavier hammer with their contrived interpretation because they know they can out resource them and probably get them to agree to a plea deal, which is as good as a conviction. Meanwhile, the FRT15 at least meets the part of the code that makes it an actual part and it comes with clear instructions for installation, while the Auto Key Card is really more like art that a usable part. |
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Posted: 1/29/2022 6:46:15 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So what exactly does this law say about constructive possession? We can pull this from the ATF rules... but thats NOT a law. Held, a firearm, as defined by the National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3), is made when unassembled parts are placed in close proximity in such a way that they: (a)Serve no useful purpose other than to make a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length (e.g., a receiver, an attachable shoulder stock, and barrel of less than 16 inches in length); or (b) Convert a complete weapon into such an NFA firearm, including – (1) A pistol and attachable shoulder stock; and (2) A rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, and an attachable barrel of less than 16 inches in length. Such weapons must be registered and are subject to all requirements of the NFA. So I suppose a hacksaw is illegal if it strolls past a rifle or shotgun? |
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Posted: 1/29/2022 6:58:23 AM EDT
[#48]
Wow... Lot of purse swinging going in here.
Some by folks who give off a faint glow even... I think it's rather cute that some folks think that ATF will or has followed the law. There is no rule of law currently in Just-Us. While we play by the rules they laugh their Just-Us asses off and change rules mid stream every time. They have become the enforcement arm of the democratic party. When are you folks going to grow up and understand that both cases most likely will never make it to trial and the whole object of this exercise is to 1.) Inflict financial harm. 2.) Send a message to anybody thinking of producing a similar product. I.E: Made an example of. It's a win, win for Just-Us. For fucks sake go look at the bottom of page seven and look at their own internal emails... calmly discussing bankrupting an FFL over morning coffee. Life is not fair and neither is the ATF nor a demonstrably corrupt Just-Us. (Who has the will or the ability to arrest anyone at Just-Us or it's adopted stepchild agency?). It's never been a problem of proof... Take the time to study the folks who are fucking with you for a moment and you will find they are quite predictable. "A man who picks up a cat by its tail learns a lesson that can be learned no other way" Mark Twain Who is the man? Who is the cat? What lesson will be learned? The only answer outside of a conflict with Just-Us is to expose the actions and ridicule them in court and in public. Something about the sanitizing rays of sunlight that seem to slow their collective role. |
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Posted: 1/29/2022 7:27:12 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Would it be illegal if the drawing was on a sheet of paper? What if a two year old drew it? |
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Posted: 1/29/2022 7:59:58 AM EDT
[#50]
I am trying to figure out if there is any limit on constructive intent at all in the eyes of the ATF.
The ATF is saying that a piece of metal with a printed outline of two lightening links is a machine gun. So does a sheet of steel in the same room with a printed pdf of a lightening link = constructive intent = machine gun? Does an appropriate piece of steel sheet in the garage + .pdf of a lightening link on my computer = constructive intent = machine gun? How about a browser history of watching how a registered lightening link works + a sheet of steel in the garage? |
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