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Posted: 11/19/2022 3:47:07 PM EDT
  A Critical Analysis: The Sig XM5 (M7)in 6.8, the Army got it Wrong. |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 3:52:18 PM EDT
[#1]
Watching now.
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Posted: 11/19/2022 3:55:05 PM EDT
[#2]
In before Narphenal shits up the thread with over-the-top flexing on poors.
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Posted: 11/19/2022 3:56:53 PM EDT
[#3]
Lol uh oh
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Posted: 11/19/2022 3:57:09 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In before Narphenal shits up the thread with over-the-top flexing on poors. He should do a reaction video |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 3:58:38 PM EDT
[#5]
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Posted: 11/19/2022 4:05:48 PM EDT
[#6]
It’s a pretty awesome replacement for 7.62, especially as a replacement for the 240.
For an issued rifle it would have been interesting to see what they could have done with a similarly high pressure 6mm round. |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 4:10:11 PM EDT
[#7]
Given that the Russian Army has turned out to be a giant shit show I don't think it makes sense to buy a new rifle to punch through the armor that they don't have.
Better idea, PIP the M4 with a better barrel and float rail, create an actual training plan, and shoot 1,000 more rounds a year. Even better idea, spend the money on artillery shells. |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 4:11:55 PM EDT
[#8]
Waste of time and money imo.
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Posted: 11/19/2022 4:12:36 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In before Narphenal shits up the thread with over-the-top flexing on poors.  |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 4:13:23 PM EDT
[#10]
Good watch.
Like how he talks about how the m4 is simply a pdw to return fire while you call in bigger assets and how he would prefer to swap the SAWs and 240s for the Sig while retaining the m4 for most soldiers. Well thought out and presented. |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 4:17:23 PM EDT
[#11]
I didn’t understand the goal of a 100% conversion from the start. It makes sense to be part of the squad but I can’t imagine clearing houses or close quarters fighting with a 20rd mag and >6.8spc recoil
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Posted: 11/19/2022 4:30:48 PM EDT
[#12]
Stukas is spot on. I don’t see this XM5 as a solution. It would be a good tool for DMR, but not a replacement for the M4.
FWIW, the Army does have different squad composition on MTOE. Heavy Brigade using Bradleys have (had) 9-man dismounted squads with one SAW and one 240. Not a bad mix until you start loading up on ammo. A true MG team is typically 3 men: Gunner, Assistant Gunner and ammo bearers. When a 240 is part of a fire team, it basically becomes a maneuvering machine gun, which is not how it was designed to be employed. The 240L (lighter M240) was better at the maneuver role, but a true MG team attached to the squad is the better solution. |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 4:33:04 PM EDT
[#13]
He’s not wrong.
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Posted: 11/19/2022 4:37:59 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Good watch. Like how he talks about how the m4 is simply a pdw to return fire while you call in bigger assets and how he would prefer to swap the SAWs and 240s for the Sig while retaining the m4 for most soldiers. Well thought out and presented. IMHO the world needs more salty Pre-GWOT NCO so his professionalism is kinda refreshing. |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 4:39:41 PM EDT
[#15]
Good video
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Posted: 11/19/2022 4:41:55 PM EDT
[#16]
@elcope any opinions that you can share on the logistics of what the video is encouraging?
E.G replace SAWs and 240s with the Spear and MG? |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 4:43:43 PM EDT
[#17]
I have a better idea.
The Army should re-introduce the M1 rifle--except in .270 Winchester caliber. With a 24" barrel you can use a 120 grain bullet and 47 grains of IMR 4895 to easily reach 3000 fps. The whole thing works easily and this makes far more sense than loading up some small case to 85,000 psi |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 4:52:02 PM EDT
[#18]
 It should have been Glock!!!!! |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 4:55:31 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have a better idea. The Army should re-introduce the M1 rifle--except in .270 Winchester caliber. With a 24" barrel you can use a 120 grain bullet and 47 grains of IMR 4895 to easily reach 3000 fps. The whole thing works easily and this makes far more sense than loading up some small case to 85,000 psi America's hat is clearly stuck in a moose-defense mindset. 24" barrels? Jesus wept. |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 4:57:51 PM EDT
[#20]
13lbs
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Posted: 11/19/2022 5:06:14 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Given that the Russian Army has turned out to be a giant shit show I don't think it makes sense to buy a new rifle to punch through the armor that they don't have. Better idea, PIP the M4 with a better barrel and float rail, create an actual training plan, and shoot 1,000 more rounds a year. Even better idea, spend the money on artillery shells. Drones and grenade racks... Learn to hide from thermal...No need for special guns, they all work fine...We will need drone defense weapons more than anything else... |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 5:06:33 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: America's hat is clearly stuck in a moose-defense mindset. 24" barrels? Jesus wept. It makes more sense than using a 13.7" barrel and a massively overloaded cartridge . I know that the 6.8x51 uses a steel reinforced case, but how difficult and expensive will it be to mass produce? Moreover, what will be the long term durability of a gun repeatedly exposed to 85,000 psi pressure? The whole thing doesn't make any sense. Why could they just adapt the M16/M4 to the 6.8x43 or some sensible cartridge? |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 5:09:22 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Given that the Russian Army has turned out to be a giant shit show I don't think it makes sense to buy a new rifle to punch through the armor that they don't have. Better idea, PIP the M4 with a better barrel and float rail, create an actual training plan, and shoot 1,000 more rounds a year. Even better idea, spend the money on artillery shells. This guy gets it. |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 5:11:05 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Given that the Russian Army has turned out to be a giant shit show I don't think it makes sense to buy a new rifle to punch through the armor that they don't have. Better idea, PIP the M4 with a better barrel and float rail, create an actual training plan, and shoot 1,000 more rounds a year. Even better idea, spend the money on artillery shells.  Attached File |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 5:12:29 PM EDT
[#25]
No 6.5 G, no care.
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Posted: 11/19/2022 5:18:11 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Given that the Russian Army has turned out to be a giant shit show I don't think it makes sense to buy a new rifle to punch through the armor that they don't have. Better idea, PIP the M4 with a better barrel and float rail, create an actual training plan, and shoot 1,000 more rounds a year. Even better idea, spend the money on artillery shells. But how would so much money be getting passed around??? |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 5:20:53 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Waste of time and money imo. Torally. Should stick with 5.56 Going back to battle rifles is dumb |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 5:21:42 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Drones and grenade racks... Learn to hide from thermal...No need for special guns, they all work fine...We will need drone defense weapons more than anything else... Drone Warfare Special Weapon  Attached File |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 5:21:43 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @elcope any opinions that you can share on the logistics of what the video is encouraging? E.G replace SAWs and 240s with the Spear and MG? Placeholder for after I watch the vid & run errands. [final jeopardy theme] Until then [/final jeopardy theme] |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 5:23:28 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It’s a pretty awesome replacement for 7.62, especially as a replacement for the 240. For an issued rifle it would have been interesting to see what they could have done with a similarly high pressure 6mm round. All of this. |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 5:24:23 PM EDT
[#31]
This guy misses the point. We prepare for the last war, not the next one. Try to keep up.
Let me save you 25 minutes: - It's heavy - It will get heavier with the new Vortex optic ...and even more with suppressor - 5 20rd 6.8 mags weigh about the same as 7 30rd 5.56 mags ...and 100 < 210 - Future conflicts will not likely need the range - Your service rifle is primarily just a PDW ...until you can get something else into the fight A bit more: - It's a mistake to try to overmatch a belt-fed threat (e.g., PKM) with our service rifle - M4 already overmatches the AK (accuracy) - We should upgrade the M249 instead, perhaps to the Mk48 ...and/or add more DMs |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 5:26:54 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Drone Warfare Special Weapon https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/137/Chainsaw_11-22_jpg-2606464.JPG That's the most worn out TV dinner tray I've ever seen. |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 5:48:01 PM EDT
[#33]
The problem is with the military bolting on a ton of shit off the m16 platform making it possible to get accurate hits past the effective range of the 556. The next country that's receiving American freedom is irreverent. The military industrial complex needs to work on a 270 cal type round that's effective past 500 yards and runs in the m16 platform
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Posted: 11/19/2022 6:13:56 PM EDT
[#34]
Let’s just circle back to 6.8spc so I can be vindicated in my choice about 15 years ago..
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Posted: 11/19/2022 6:20:43 PM EDT
[#35]
All M4's should be upgraded with SOCOM barrels.
Mk12 Mod1 remains in a DMR role, 20" or 18" doesn't matter. All issue ammo, Mk 262 for both rifles. SAW's can be whatever ammo you want, provided it's universal. We have NATO partners and logistics matter. This contract was awarded to SIG, and I am unable to understand the justification at all. The US Armed Forces could have increased combat effective ranges on 7.62x51mm MG's by simply using old school 173 grain FMJ's circa. 1960's sniper bullets. The increased cost of subbing this bullet would be minimal compared to fielding this entirely new round. Even current production 175 grain SMK's loaded in M240 belts would dramatically increase effective range, but would cost a little more. |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 6:27:22 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Let's just circle back to 6.8spc so I can be vindicated in my choice about 15 years ago.. 
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Posted: 11/19/2022 6:29:22 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Let’s just circle back to 6.8spc so I can be vindicated in my choice about 15 years ago.. Yeah… We want more range and ability to make hits at range so the obvious choice is something with a worse BC than Mk262. Sounds rad. |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 6:44:41 PM EDT
[#38]
I haven't finished his video yet, but I agree the XM5's are a mistake. Maybe for different reasons.
The stated goal, if I understand correctly, has always been to defeat armor. 1) You need an enemy wearing armor first. 2) We're giving up a lot of capacity by going to the new 6.8 cartridge. 3) It relies on marksmanship, and while I'm not military, my understanding is that we generally don't train this, opting for sharp and similar instead. I've always argued, instead of going through armor, go around it. Push more explosive/fragmentation/thermobaric weapons to soldiers. You don't need a magic bullet that can go through a vest at 300 yards if you fill the enemy's head & face with frag. The gustav, improved 40mm and mid-range grenade launchers, maybe develop the XM25 further, the pike 40mm (and similar). Maybe more integrated, automated ("drone") mortar and support systems that can assist soldiers in shorter range engagements. These weapons have the benefit of reducing the required marksmanship to be effective. You no longer need to hit the enemy. Just hit "near" him and the warhead will do the rest. |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 6:47:20 PM EDT
[#39]
wE nEeD aN 800m RIFL3 fOR 25m rAnGEs idiots
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Posted: 11/19/2022 6:50:13 PM EDT
[#40]
The new MG is titties. The XM5, especially with the optic, would be an awesome DMR. The XM5 as a standard issue is dumb.
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Posted: 11/19/2022 6:53:03 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's the most worn out TV dinner tray I've ever seen. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Drone Warfare Special Weapon https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/137/Chainsaw_11-22_jpg-2606464.JPG That's the most worn out TV dinner tray I've ever seen. I’ve had it for about 20 years now. Plus tons of scrubbing. It’s a TV tray holding a weapon so it doesn’t have to be pretty. |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 7:01:48 PM EDT
[#42]
The Army ignores a century of battlefield data, including 3 of the most intense wars ever fought in human history and a very long guerilla war against an actually motivated enemy...in favor of a relatively small number of very low casualty incidents in one theater in the GWOT fought against the goatfucking equivalent of homeboys armed with beltfeds at the very far end of their effective range?
Am I missing something? |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 7:08:00 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In before Narphenal shits up the thread with over-the-top flexing on poors. You can bet he’s not going to like this. At least no one has brought up Taylor Swift yet. 
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Posted: 11/19/2022 7:09:45 PM EDT
[#44]
Sig hiring Generals paid off.
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Posted: 11/19/2022 7:24:37 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Army ignores a century of battlefield data, including 3 of the most intense wars ever fought in human history and a very long guerilla war against an actually motivated enemy...in favor of a relatively small number of very low casualty incidents in one theater in the GWOT fought against the goatfucking equivalent of homeboys armed with beltfeds at the very far end of their effective range? Am I missing something? Not really, just wait until he bean counters start saying it's too expensive and fuck with the whole design. Then wait for the Army to change out the ammo for something that doesn't kick as much because Specialist Mary Sue and the fabulous Lt Jeffries get PTSD from shooting it because of the recoil. Not to mention they can't hit shit with it because the bean counters cancelled the "Gee-Whiz Let me do it for you scope" because of expense. You know... typical big Army stuff! |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 7:58:56 PM EDT
[#46]
The belt fed variant is promising but it was a mistake to pick a caliber that can’t be put in an M240.
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Posted: 11/19/2022 8:20:51 PM EDT
[#47]
I'm just a lowly former grunt but watching the Ukrainian war I think HE, and having a lot and portable, makes more sense.
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Posted: 11/19/2022 8:52:15 PM EDT
[#48]
And what was wrong about just going with 6.5 Creedmoor( for the AR-10), which would be easier on barrels? I know the 6.8x51 has greater range but the skillset to shoot farther than Creedmoor's range requires alot more training and more expensive optics just to start.
And if 5.56 is yesterday's newspaper, then why not go with 6.5 Grendel for the M4 platform? |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 8:55:23 PM EDT
[#49]
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Posted: 11/19/2022 9:04:09 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryIs that what they mean by fighting 2 "near peer" opponents simultaneously? |
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