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Posted: 11/19/2022 9:05:22 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And if 5.56 is yesterday's newspaper, then why not go with 6.5 Grendel for the M4 platform? Wouldn’t work well enough with military quantities, maintenance, etc. |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 9:07:34 PM EDT
[#2]
Not sure why this was even needed when we have M855.
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Posted: 11/19/2022 9:07:52 PM EDT
[#3]
But we need a $4/rnd new rifle to fight the up armored “peer” boogeyman
Ukraine? No no don’t concern yourself with that. The boogeyman has lvl 4 ceramics The new barrel burner round doesn’t penetrate lvl 4 ceramics but don’t worry, you need it Cyber? We’ll put our best e3s on it supervised by a major that types with two fingers. That ought to do it |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 9:08:14 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You can bet he’s not going to like this. At least no one has brought up Taylor Swift yet.  Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: In before Narphenal shits up the thread with over-the-top flexing on poors. You can bet he’s not going to like this. At least no one has brought up Taylor Swift yet. |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 9:10:30 PM EDT
[#5]
LOL.
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Posted: 11/19/2022 9:10:52 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: All M4's should be upgraded with SOCOM barrels. Mk12 Mod1 remains in a DMR role, 20" or 18" doesn't matter. All issue ammo, Mk 262 for both rifles. SAW's can be whatever ammo you want, provided it's universal. We have NATO partners and logistics matter. This contract was awarded to SIG, and I am unable to understand the justification at all. The US Armed Forces could have increased combat effective ranges on 7.62x51mm MG's by simply using old school 173 grain FMJ's circa. 1960's sniper bullets. The increased cost of subbing this bullet would be minimal compared to fielding this entirely new round. Even current production 175 grain SMK's loaded in M240 belts would dramatically increase effective range, but would cost a little more. The M4s in inventory all have SOCOM barrels. They've gone to M4A1s for years now. |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 9:16:47 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Good watch. Like how he talks about how the m4 is simply a pdw to return fire while you call in bigger assets and how he would prefer to swap the SAWs and 240s for the Sig while retaining the m4 for most soldiers. Well thought out and presented. Should be: SR15 KAC PDW KAC LMG Video confirmed gay |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 9:21:43 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is that what they mean by fighting 2 "near peer" opponents simultaneously?  Officially 2 near peer has been dropped. It’s now 2 regional but not at the same time with some forces continued for GWOT in Africa & Syria, so Iran .......North Korea or China/Taiwan but nobody else. I think Beijing & especially Moscow finally got a clue that they don’t have what it takes to go 1 vs 1 air & sea against us so I’m guessing they’re behind the scenes blowing smoke up Iran and North Korea’s ass which combined with having President teleprompter trying in office means why were seeing DPRK & IRGC being more aggressive. It’s not about food because Trump didn’t give them shit for food and little rocket man didn’t do shit...where did 2017-January 6th food come from? Not the USA so all the Iranian antics imo are after meetings with Xi Jingping and Putin. |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 9:23:53 PM EDT
[#9]
Love the video, he's dead right.
His "the rifle is a PDW" thing is dead on, and why I advocate for an 11.5" AR as a general purpose infantry weapon. It can work out to 300-400m, which is just fine. An XM250, and an AR-10 variant in 6.8x51mm at the squad level would be the heat. Though I could live with an XM5/XM250 at the squad level, while everybody else rolls M4s, even if I think a DI gun would be superior. |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 9:24:06 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The belt fed variant is promising but it was a mistake to pick a caliber that can’t be put in an M240. Back in March the Army seemed to believe that the M240 could be converted to work with 6.8. https://soldiersystems.net/2022/03/16/us-army-seeks-sources-for-m240-6-8mm-conversion-kits/ I suspect that if the M250 is successful it will completely replace the M240 in the infantry, with converted 240s hanging around in support units. |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 9:26:14 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Drones and grenade racks... Learn to hide from thermal...No need for special guns, they all work fine...We will need drone defense weapons more than anything else... China loves them some anti drone. If you all can be so invested with the toys in Ukraine, why does China always fall off GD toy radar? Does GD actually think Harbor Freight supplies the PLA?https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2016-02/19/content_23552398.htm  Attached File |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 9:28:11 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Given that the Russian Army has turned out to be a giant shit show I don't think it makes sense to buy a new rifle to punch through the armor that they don't have. Better idea, PIP the M4 with a better barrel and float rail, create an actual training plan, and shoot 1,000 more rounds a year. Even better idea, spend the money on artillery shells. https://www.bodyarmornews.com/chinese-army-body-armor/  Attached File |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 9:35:49 PM EDT
[#13]
I'm not watching the video. My feeling is that their best bet for success with this platform will be in 308 and 6.5 Creedmoor variants on the commercial market. Possibly 8.6 Blackout if that becomes more popular.
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Posted: 11/19/2022 9:42:32 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No 6.5 G, no care. Lol, and a small mountain of bolt heads. |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 9:47:12 PM EDT
[#15]
He's exactly right
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Posted: 11/19/2022 9:47:12 PM EDT
[#16]
I wonder how many recent combat soldiers have said they would tolerate a heavier rifle and less ammo because the 5.56 is not powerful enough for what they need.
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Posted: 11/19/2022 9:51:18 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Should be: SR15 KAC PDW KAC LMG Video confirmed gay @WhiskersTheCat Sir thank you for the comment! But you're in fact the retarded one if you actually bought one of our overly expensive mediocre products. I am sorry to inform you by this but you probably have autism. |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 9:56:38 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @WhiskersTheCat Sir thank you for the comment! But you're in fact the retarded one if you actually bought one of our overly expensive mediocre products. I am sorry to inform you by this but you probably have autism. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Should be: SR15 KAC PDW KAC LMG Video confirmed gay @WhiskersTheCat Sir thank you for the comment! But you're in fact the retarded one if you actually bought one of our overly expensive mediocre products. I am sorry to inform you by this but you probably have autism.  WHISKERS BTFO |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 10:06:42 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is that what they mean by fighting 2 "near peer" opponents simultaneously? You misheard. The DoD is tasked to fight two “near queer” opponents simultaneously. We are fully on track. |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 10:24:05 PM EDT
[#20]
I suspect we'll see a similar situation to what happened to the Krag.
For those who don't know, the Krag's power was found lacking when it was put up against the spanish 7mm mausers. In order to close the gap, the US loaded .30/40 krag even hotter, but the guns were unable to handle the hotter round. The XM5 will not replace the M4. Not even close. Give it some time, and the program will fall flat on its face |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 10:28:08 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: @elcope any opinions that you can share on the logistics of what the video is encouraging? E.G replace SAWs and 240s with the Spear and MG? Quote HistoryQuoted: @elcope any opinions that you can share on the logistics of what the video is encouraging? E.G replace SAWs and 240s with the Spear and MG? He covers most of the arguments I've heard in the past regarding this system, so I won't cover that and also it's not my rice bowl anyhow. On the logistics aspect, since that's what you asked, I think he unwittingly covered it in the first minute of his video, the Army will slow roll and walk back the "need" to re-equip. That's not how you "overmatch". Further on Logistics, adopting a new small arms chambering on a large scale in the military is bigger than it might initially appear, since you'd be adding a small arms caliber, NOT replacing one, since the other branches aren't talking about adopting this. So, you would be adding a space & tooling requirement to LCAAP (Lake City), Storage space in ammunition depots and Army Prepositioned Ships and everything else from doctrine / manuals rewrites to ammo cans / stripper clips, etc. I think it's ONLY effective selling point is that it enriches SIG and their investment to hire ex-Army General Officers to fleece the taxpayer unnecessarily. If you want overmatch for fire superiority add more 240's to the MTO&E and / or more DMR's. Quoted: Given that the Russian Army has turned out to be a giant shit show I don't think it makes sense to buy a new rifle to punch through the armor that they don't have. Better idea, PIP the M4 with a better barrel and float rail, create an actual training plan, and shoot 1,000 more rounds a year. Even better idea, spend the money on artillery shells. This is a far more effective use of our dollars, since we've PIP'ed the M4 over the GWOT years, about the only thing left to do to it, is freefloat the barrel and maybe 77grain all the things and get rid of M855/SS109. Next war looks to be mostly Navy / AF missile & plane showdown where small arms will make little overall difference. Or a nuke exchange where all bets are off. |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 10:32:07 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have a better idea. The Army should re-introduce the M1 rifle--except in .270 Winchester caliber. With a 24" barrel you can use a 120 grain bullet and 47 grains of IMR 4895 to easily reach 3000 fps. The whole thing works easily and this makes far more sense than loading up some small case to 85,000 psi |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 10:32:59 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You misheard. The DoD is tasked to fight two “near queer” opponents simultaneously. We are fully on track. Suddenly so much of the past decade makes sense. |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 10:33:16 PM EDT
[#24]
I've met Jeff on the 3gun circuit. Great and knowledgeable dude.
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Posted: 11/19/2022 10:40:40 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Back in March the Army seemed to believe that the M240 could be converted to work with 6.8. https://soldiersystems.net/2022/03/16/us-army-seeks-sources-for-m240-6-8mm-conversion-kits/ I suspect that if the M250 is successful it will completely replace the M240 in the infantry, with converted 240s hanging around in support units. My understanding was that the TV 6.8 worked but the Sig didn’t. I could see the M250 replacing the 240 in the platoon but a stamped gun with a slower to use barrel change feature isn’t the right call for a medium IMO. |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 10:42:16 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He covers most of the arguments I've heard in the past regarding this system, so I won't cover that and also it's not my rice bowl anyhow. On the logistics aspect, since that's what you asked, I think he unwittingly covered it in the first minute of his video, the Army will slow roll and walk back the "need" to re-equip. That's not how you "overmatch". Further on Logistics, adopting a new small arms chambering on a large scale in the military is bigger than it might initially appear, since you'd be adding a small arms caliber, NOT replacing one, since the other branches aren't talking about adopting this. So, you would be adding a space & tooling requirement to LCAAP (Lake City), Storage space in ammunition depots and Army Prepositioned Ships and everything else from doctrine / manuals rewrites to ammo cans / stripper clips, etc. I think it's ONLY effective selling point is that it enriches SIG and their investment to hire ex-Army General Officers to fleece the taxpayer unnecessarily. If you want overmatch for fire superiority add more 240's to the MTO&E and / or more DMR's. This is a far more effective use of our dollars, since we've PIP'ed the M4 over the GWOT years, about the only thing left to do to it, is freefloat the barrel and maybe 77grain all the things and get rid of M855/SS109. Next war looks to be mostly Navy / AF missile & plane showdown where small arms will make little overall difference. Or a nuke exchange where all bets are off. The only note I would have is that 6.8 can and should replace every 7.62 application. The general carbine should remain in 5.56 but all belt feds should be replaced by the 250 or converted. |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 10:44:24 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Given that the Russian Army has turned out to be a giant shit show I don't think it makes sense to buy a new rifle to punch through the armor that they don't have. Better idea, PIP the M4 with a better barrel and float rail, create an actual training plan, and shoot 1,000 more rounds a year. Even better idea, spend the money on artillery shells. that makes a lot of sense and is for sure what a sensible person would do, but the Military-Industrial-Complex is hungry |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 10:46:44 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My understanding was that the TV 6.8 worked but the Sig didn’t. I could see the M250 replacing the 240 in the platoon but a stamped gun with a slower to use barrel change feature isn’t the right call for a medium IMO. 1. The 240 should be able to convert and their is a contract already out their for the barrels and gas block to do it. 2. The slower barrel change is only because the Army contract specified no handle. I am quite positive that it will be added back after field trials. Converted 240s for mounted applications and 250s for dismounted is where we will end up. Obviously there we will be some mtoe Weirdness. |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 10:46:47 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It makes more sense than using a 13.7" barrel and a massively overloaded cartridge . Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: America's hat is clearly stuck in a moose-defense mindset. 24" barrels? Jesus wept. It makes more sense than using a 13.7" barrel and a massively overloaded cartridge . No it doesn't. Barrels are getting shorter partly because suppressors are becoming general issue and partly because long barrels suck balls for modern combat. Ammunition is evolving to perform better in short barrels. At some point, I have a feeling a viable bullpup will emerge and become a serious contender. |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 10:53:42 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you want overmatch for fire superiority add more 240's to the MTO&E and / or more DMR's. Need to make MGs a school with an ASI... let every MOS go since most MGs aren't in infantry units. |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 10:54:36 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No it doesn't. Barrels are getting shorter partly because suppressors are becoming general issue and partly because long barrels suck balls for modern combat. Ammunition is evolving to perform better in short barrels. At some point, I have a feeling a viable bullpup will emerge and become a serious contender. Nope bullpup is dead. The early adopters are all switching back to the traditional layout. France, China, Britain is buying ARs for their Ranger regiment. |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 10:56:08 PM EDT
[#32]
Once you understand the mission of the US military this program, and every program, and every bizarre campaign decision make perfect sense.
The primary mission of the US military is to produce the largest possible number of general officers. The secondary mission is to transition those generals to lucrative defense jobs after they retire. If you understand these facts, every single thing makes sense. |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 10:57:04 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 1. The 240 should be able to convert and their is a contract already out their for the barrels and gas block to do it. 2. The slower barrel change is only because the Army contract specified no handle. I am quite positive that it will be added back after field trials. Converted 240s for mounted applications and 250s for dismounted is where we will end up. Obviously there we will be some mtoe Weirdness. This makes me feel better about it. I’d hate for us to have to pay to replace stamped guns all the time if it’s not necessary. |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 10:57:57 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No it doesn't. Barrels are getting shorter partly because suppressors are becoming general issue and partly because long barrels suck balls for modern combat. Ammunition is evolving to perform better in short barrels. At some point, I have a feeling a viable bullpup will emerge and become a serious contender. If you need a bigger caliber to do more work at more distance perhaps you should consider a longer barrel. They decided big and heavy was ok but then cut the barrel? Bad idea. |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 11:13:49 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You misheard. The DoD is tasked to fight two "near queer" opponents simultaneously. We are fully on track. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Is that what they mean by fighting 2 "near peer" opponents simultaneously? You misheard. The DoD is tasked to fight two "near queer" opponents simultaneously. We are fully on track. Testiculorum Profundus! Sable and Argent Crossed dildoes,bold on a Vert planet. |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 11:15:50 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote Historyand? in every video I've seen of Russian soldiers getting wreked by tiny drone dropped frag grenades, they're always wearing at least a soft armor vest and they still die really damn easy. Even front/back plates only cover about 1/3 of a torso |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 11:23:40 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not sure why this was even needed when we have M855. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/147863/62128616-EC95-4EBE-92F7-EC4B3E1E87BE-2419961.jpg  Attached File |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 11:24:59 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Need to make MGs a school with an ASI... let every MOS go since most MGs aren't in infantry units. Good idea. The USAR did (almost) exactly that with Gen Lucky's gunnery school at Ft. McCoy over the previous few years. (which I'm sure you've heard of) |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 11:40:24 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: and? in every video I've seen of Russian soldiers getting wreked by tiny drone dropped frag grenades, they're always wearing at least a soft armor vest and they still die really damn easy. Even front/back plates only cover about 1/3 of a torso How did you see that link but not the other link? |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 11:45:05 PM EDT
[#40]
A heavy battle rifle with 20rd magazines? Is it 1960 again?
The big guys cut must be larger than 10% for this nonsense to happen. |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 11:49:33 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Once you understand the mission of the US military this program, and every program, and every bizarre campaign decision make perfect sense. The primary mission of the US military is to produce the largest possible number of general officers. The secondary mission is to transition those generals to lucrative defense jobs after they retire. If you understand these facts, every single thing makes sense. |
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Posted: 11/19/2022 11:59:48 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Good idea. The USAR did (almost) exactly that with Gen Lucky's gunnery school at Ft. McCoy over the previous few years. (which I'm sure you've heard of) Heard of it, yes, but I think it needs to be expanded to the whole service. A Royal Marine/SBS guy I met once told me that you couldn't get past Corporal in the RM until you'd led a gun team. It's that important to them. The M2/M240/Mk19 is about 97% of the defensive firepower of FA units. The other 3% is M16s and M203/M320s. Same with just about every other non infantry or cav unit in the Army. If anything the soft skills should be the ones pushing the train on this. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 12:18:28 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No it doesn't. Barrels are getting shorter partly because suppressors are becoming general issue and partly because long barrels suck balls for modern combat. Ammunition is evolving to perform better in short barrels. At some point, I have a feeling a viable bullpup will emerge and become a serious contender. It's crazy to expect 3000 fps with a 135 grain bullet from a 13.7" barrel. It can be done with insane pressures, but it is still a bad idea. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 12:47:50 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: IMHO the world needs more salty Pre-GWOT NCO so his professionalism is kinda refreshing. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Good watch. Like how he talks about how the m4 is simply a pdw to return fire while you call in bigger assets and how he would prefer to swap the SAWs and 240s for the Sig while retaining the m4 for most soldiers. Well thought out and presented. IMHO the world needs more salty Pre-GWOT NCO so his professionalism is kinda refreshing. Agreed. Old USMC commo Sgt from desert storm was a great teacher, wish there more like him around here. As for the tactical application, eh… He’s not wrong, though I think removing LMG’s from squad level is dumb. MG > DMR, especially since the military won’t be spending the time/money to train guys to be better marksmen to take advantage of the M5’s capabilities. Problem I see is that the 249 is both heavy, and getting long in the tooth, and the 240 is a heavy bastard when you’re on foot and toting ammo. I want to see the 5.56 caseless/cased telescoping LSAT. 10~12 pound LMG with ammo even lighter than basic 5.56, low recoil and accurate enough to punch out to the very limits of the cartridge. At that point, you could feasibly turn half the squad into machine gunners. After the LSAT, the best option on the market is KAC’s assault LMG. Only question I have is how durable it is, it’s half the weight of the 249. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 12:53:03 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You can bet he’s not going to like this. At least no one has brought up Taylor Swift yet. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: In before Narphenal shits up the thread with over-the-top flexing on poors. You can bet he’s not going to like this. At least no one has brought up Taylor Swift yet. Or foreskins. 
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Posted: 11/20/2022 1:38:32 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Given that the Russian Army has turned out to be a giant shit show I don't think it makes sense to buy a new rifle to punch through the armor that they don't have. Better idea, PIP the M4 with a better barrel and float rail, create an actual training plan, and shoot 1,000 more rounds a year. Even better idea, spend the money on artillery shells. https://www.bodyarmornews.com/chinese-army-body-armor/ https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/459941/6C65B302-03EB-48F0-A684-A519536652E2_jpe-2606790.JPG Headline left out the words "fake" and "Chinese" |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 1:59:04 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Army ignores a century of battlefield data, including 3 of the most intense wars ever fought in human history and a very long guerilla war against an actually motivated enemy...in favor of a relatively small number of very low casualty incidents in one theater in the GWOT fought against the goatfucking equivalent of homeboys armed with beltfeds at the very far end of their effective range? Am I missing something? What does changing ammo to match a modern body armor threat have to do with goatfucking homeboys? |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 2:10:51 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have a better idea. The Army should re-introduce the M1 rifle--except in .270 Winchester caliber. With a 24" barrel you can use a 120 grain bullet and 47 grains of IMR 4895 to easily reach 3000 fps. The whole thing works easily and this makes far more sense than loading up some small case to 85,000 psi Whatever drugs you are on I hope you successfully get thru rehab. |
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Posted: 11/20/2022 2:15:46 AM EDT
[#49]
I can't wait for the .45-70 crowd to show up. The derp just keeps getting worse and worse.
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Posted: 11/20/2022 2:18:37 AM EDT
[#50]
I wonder if there were people saying that the M1 Garand was unnecessary. Look at WWI and the Spanish civil war, bolt actions are just fine they worked in the past. This semi auto stuff is dumb and heavy.
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