She’s a psycho who revels in the suffering of her crew. She should’ve been taken out and shot

I loved TNG growing up, but OP is right.

Filthy space commies as well.

Cruising speed was like warp 6. Max warp was 9.2 but it couldn't be sustain for long.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warp_drive#Modified_warp_scale_–_The_Next_Generation,_Deep_Space_Nine_and_Voyager

“In Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual it was established that the normal operating speed of the Enterprise-D (Galaxy class) was Warp 6 (new scale), the maximum rated cruise was Warp 9.2 and the maximum design speed of warp factor 9.6. In two episodes, the Enterprise-D could travel at warp 9.8 at "extreme risk", while fleeing from an enemy.”

Sadly everything you knew about TOS, TNG, DS9, VGR, ect was thrown out of airlock because of Discovery and legal bullshit between CBS and Paramount  

Those lazy fucks at CBS.

Attached File


Most of these designs were clearly intended for a post next gen series. Nope, they decide to place it in the time of Kirk.

I like the four nacelle configuration. It's like an airliner with four Pratt and Whitney Wasp Major's. As far as you can push the tech before you gotta do something else. But saying that they had these ships in this era? It's like seeing Billy Mitchell flying around in a Bone.

Four nacelles gets you warping so fast you might turn into a lizard.

If everyone gets turned into a lizard does that mean that everyone is equal?

They seemed more like Nazis to me.

The Cardassians were part Best Korea and part Jihadist. If that last doesn’t jive for you, don’t forget they they spent untold resources persecuting a religious minority in the region who were otherwise happy being left alone. They even had a temple of sorts.

The cardassians even come from a desert climate. Painting then as a jihadist Caliphate persecuting the Jews is an absurdly easy comparison to make.

No one ever comes close to hitting the max warp speed all the time. They usually putter around at warp 5 or 6 and spend days at a time exploring various things along the way. When they usually want to get somewhere fast they usually bump up to warp 8 or maybe 9, but it is for short sprints. Also with a little technobabble and re-configuring this or that and making some inverse polarity of some field generator, they can make the max warp whatever they want.

You are partially correct.
Star Trek the Next Generation yes communists.

Star Trek the original series was capitalistic in most case.

Leo Walsh was the owner of a space craft stolen by Harry Mudd in "Mudd's Women."

The miners on Rigel XII were able to mine an sell also in the same episode.

The "Trouble with Tribbles" was very capitalistic.

"Bread and Circuses" talks about the son of god.

Yes they are a cash lees society and work with credits but they have a monetary value.

They weren't lazy, the former CEO hated Trek.

Actually the Cardasians were a cheap 1D copy of the Centari from Babylon 5.

Click To View SpoilerB5 was pitched to Paramount before DS9 was a thing and they kept the B5 notes which they later used.

Im sorry, but no matter how nasty sounding you make the threat, it still doesnt serve as a decent comeback for the verbal smack down you just received.

We should all co author a sci-fi novel of blowing up filthy space commies

Edit: what’s the space equivalent of throwing commies out of rotary wing aircraft? Spacing them from shuttles?

Well, I got the pistols, so I'll keep the Pesos
Yeah, and that seems fair

and yes the Federation was a bunch of filthy commies

This is why the ferenghi are such a welcome species

I never got super into star trek, but the next generation seemed almost ke a sort of UN propaganda to me.

Collectivism kind of gives me the willys in almost any form. But I'm a total nationalist, lol. Kind of a paradox.

Maybe it's because as Americans we used to be taught that, we pull together when we need to defend our individual rights.

Working together for common cause isn’t the same as being a collectivist. Collectivists totally subsume their own personalities and wills to “the collective”. They cease even being individuals in any real sense and become soulless drones.

Except replicators can't.

Plus there is the issue that it can't make certain things due to the complexity of molecular structures.

No, in TOS they were commies as well.

Replicators can do everything until the plot needs them not to.

Again, they can't do everything. Replicators are a lie just mankind achieving true communism is a lie.

So meet me at the Mission at Midnight - We'll divvy up there...

They may of gotten it right with the future being a Communism or socialist hybrid.
It might be a natural evolution for the species when we invent robots/AI/replicators, that can do anything we can or better.

Think about it, if the robot builds and maintains the robots that mine/farm the resources, process them and ship them, what is the cost of said goods if no human labor is involved?

Next to Nothing.

humans, labor, is the #1 reason why anything costs anything, once you eliminate that humongous chunk, all that’s left is the scarcity of the resources and land involved as well as demand if there isn’t enough supply.

Take a Loaf of bread, if you completly automate it’s production, the cost won’t be much more than the material cost of the bread and bag. Stuff which is already pennies on the dollar already which will cost much less due to automation...

What does that mean?

What it means is we’ll be able to afford more welfare for the lazy than ever before social welfare has been expanding alongside automation for over a century now and it will continue to expand in the future.

So As automation increases the  amount of welfare the state can provide will increase, expect the government to branch into healthcare eventually after all give it enough time, that robo doctor won’t cost the government anything but maintence and medical supplies, if it’s all provided by robots.

you think first world problems are trivial now? Imagine an economy where all the basics required for living, (except for housing, robots can’t make more land) are available at next to no cost!

America in that future situation probably won’t  be distinguished by its high level of productivity in the workplace, but it’s high level of productive members vs those on the dole sitting around and doing nothing, probably complaining about their basics being basic but being too lazy to do any basic work towards getting something that isn’t basic.

Oh and if your wondering where the jobs/economy will go, there will always be things for a human economy that robots can’t make.
For instance, anything made by man, want to bet humans won’t get even more snobbish over robo goods vs hand made goods? How about human entertainment? Think people will happily endorse a robot actor, even though you can’t tell the difference?
Don’t forget Robots can’t make antiques, Land, tourist destinations, how about human sporting competitions? And then there’s the new future human economic opportunities  created by the robots that we can’t predict.

There will be plenty of room for an economy for those who want to participate, the crazy part will be when we can afford many more members not willfully participating, perhaps even a majority of unproductives, which will be really scary if they can all vote...

...which is why we’ll some serious protections against wealth confiscation to avoid the typical socialist problems. Probably something similar to what the founding fathers had at the beginning with only property owners being allowed to vote.

Something along the lines of, No representation without taxation.

If you don’t make enough to be taxed, or your net government benefits outweighs your taxed income, Then You can’t vote for that election.
That is the only way I can think of avoiding the leeches from voting in wealth confiscation schemers and destroying the productive part of society in such a future scenario.

Came to post this

The Future under Socialism is the UN in The Expanse. The majority living off UBI in slums while the Political Elite do well.

The whole point of that episode was to illustrate that, even though the Federation's ban on Genetic Engineering*is based on historical experience with the Augments....it's still a stupid law because it's applied knee-jerk and without nuance.  The prosecutor going after Bashir even said that somebody, it didn't matter who, had to be punished for Bashir's being improved....because if they didn't punish someone....people might start doing it more and accidentally, maybe, create another Khan instead of a Bashir.  It's "Careful, Now" lawmaking at it's worst, and the episode isn't shy about ramming that home.

*-The ban seems to be only (in the show) applicable to Humans.  It's in the canon because Roddenberry hated the idea of Transhumanism, where people are improved through intervention in their genes/physical attributes.  His philosophy was that stock human beings were perfectable through their own efforts....such as abandoning the pursuit of profit and material gain in favor of self-improvement.

They had no problem with Torres and the Holo-Doc genetically modifying her Human/Klingon Mestizo Baby. But that's because the Mestizo Alien Hybrid is automatically better than a human anyways and it is a poor minority.

Nah, the aliens (to Roddenberry) were just window dressing, and don't count.  In-Universe, I'm guessing the other Fed member worlds just let the Humans act out their Khan-phobia, while doing whatever they want.

From "Dr Bashir, I Presume":

I'll go with this.

they don't demand anyone to do or sacrifice for the good of others. so you can't really compare it to socialism/communism in any reasonable way... as it literally takes future space magic to make the system work.

but there is also no real reason to better ones self except for the cause of bettering yourself... If we look at tropical islands, we can see there is no real indicator humans in an near ideal environment and situation would ever take the opportunity to actually better themselves.

Ferengi Alliance FTW, as it operates with capitalism even when replicators have removed scarcity, capitalisim promotes competition, competition creates innovation for advantage, that innovation betters everyone.

Yet Kahn was a benign ruler and wasn't threatened by the success of others and encouraged it and their self esteem. He was fucked over by Kirk and left stranded on a shithole.

And personally, if I could genetically engineer my daughter to have the best attributes. I'd do it.

Limitless energy and the ability to create matter at will, plus move it from place to place.

That...changes the equation.

Just saying.

OP is wrong. You can own whatever you want. Even phasers and other weapons. There are privately owned starships throughout Stat Trek. Communication is likely monitored by Starfleet for the simple reason that Starfleet (both pre and post UFP) created the subspace comms network.

And by the 24th century at least there is no scarcity. If you have matter and energy (both almost free by then), you can create literally anything at no apparent cost. Federation citizens are free to come and go from Federation space as they choose and may work with whatever entities and governments they choose. Further the UFP goes out of its way a few times to remind its citizens that if they choose to do something stupid in some other space, they are on their own.

Examples of private ownership of ships:
Xhosa
Raven
Mudd's ship

There are numerous references to colony ships that are pre and post Federation that are private ventures. Sure, they are registered vessels (just like we have today) flagged from Earth or any other planet/government. And then there are all of the foreign privately-owned ships that travel freely through Federation space:

Quark's shuttle
Various Ferengi vessels
Klingon ships (various either owned by a single captain or family)
TNG alien of the week ships
DS9 had numerous privately-owned ships docked at any time

Quark kept his old issue disruptor aboard DS9, and nobody seemed to care. Garak had his own disruptor. Klingons (again not necessarily part of the Klingon military but loyal to individual captains and families) walked around with disruptor pistols everywhere. The farmer in the first episode of Enterprise had a laser-shotgun thing that could blow up an entire silo with one shot--no one was shocked or surprised that he had such a weapon.

And these shows are focused on ships of the line--military/science vessels serving in earth's latest military entity that became the Federation's military entity: Starfleet. So we are getting the perspective of what amounts to be a bunch of Navy people while serving on their Navy ships. DS9 is the exception, but it is still a story told from the perspective of members of the military while they are serving at their post.

Lastly Roddenberry pushed the idea that humanity had changed by the 23rd and 24th centuries. While they could apparently own whatever the heck they wanted (certainly far better weapons than we can own), culturally most of humanity wanted to better themselves and each other through science, exploration, philosophy, etc. Remember these are a people who are supposed to have survived a third world war that came close to ending all life on earth and forcing a new approach to government with the loss of so many governments. There is no way we can predict how such a thing would impact the people of today. Roddenberry gave us his best guess. I don't think it's fair to call it communism all things considered.

Except they can't create matter at will and don't have limitless energy. Replicators convert matter through energy and can't make a number of things complexity in molecular designs. The people can't move from place to place since travel is controlled by the government.

They have reeducation camps and even a resistence movement fighting them.

they've attained utopia. the 60's version.

there are still white males in it.

I've yet to see any evidence of the UFP being a Post Scarcity Economy. They still very much operate off the idea of a Centralized Planned Economy.

If it was all post scarcity, then why would anyone enlist into Starfleet and become a low rank peon scrubbing holodecks?

The Ferengi win because Replicators can't make everything. That is the honest truth. Things still need to be made, mined, resourced, etc... the Bajorans even kick people off their whole damn moon because they Nationalized it for a mining operation. Yet they have Replicators and can supposedly make shit out if thin air.

The Ferengi are then only truth in the entirety of the series.

She'd give Harry Kim all the fucked up shit. Shit that could and almost would kill him. ALL THE TIME. It was like marriage by proxy.

I think my favorite character was the Doctor.

It is 23rd century socialism. Remember you can buy planets in TOS.

That post-scarcity world really makes for quite the change.

Its explains how the artisinal authenic handmade non-replicated whatevers (Kurlan naiskos, real sundaes),  are suddenly the most valuable things in the world.  It's similiar to the current hipster trend of "vintage" whatevers that are a desperate search for authenticity in a world where increasingly everything can be acquired, but nothing feels like it has value because it's so easily acquired.

It'd also be why ST:NG is full of live music and poetry concerts that are frequently terrible, but the people there eat them up.  It's live music - it's real, and it's authentic, and it lasts only as long as it lasts, rather than being on endless loop in the holodeck or on memory tapes (ToS).

It's not socialism, it's not communism, it's utopianism... which is also why Deep Space 9 threw a monkeywrench into the works, because it took apart some of the aspects of that ST utopianism... almost as if they'd watched some other show about a space station for a while.

Who does the centralized planning?  Does Sisko's dad have to apply for extensions for his restaurant in New Orleans every time they renew a 5 year plan?

People don't enlist into Starfleet - one of its primary problems is that most everyone is an officer of some type.  They go to an academy to become stellar at everything (though due to lack of continuity, they have the memory of a goldfish), then promptly go off to flit about the universe looking at nebulas and anomalies.

The Ferengi when they're not being made into parodies of Hollywood execs that the writers love to hate, hold a mirror to the false utopianism of ST.  Realistically, people like Mudd did the same.

Of course, the problem with the Ferengi is that they, like most all ST aliens, have a "hat" to wear, and they wear the "capitalist pig-dog" hat, much like the Klingons wear the "warrior warrior warrior" hat.

The Raven was the USS RAVEN. It was a UGP owned ship. The Xhosa was built for non governmental purposes. No different than how the USSR did the same with its ships and aircraft. Aeroflot was a "private" business in the USSR too. Yates' transportation business was contracted to the Bajoran Government. A satellite state in the UFP sphere of influence. I recall that the PRC does this right now. A number of "private businesses" are jointly owned by the State and operate outside of PRC territory. Look at Norinco or Sinopec. Look at the numerous contracts made in Africa and Latin America.

DS9 is not Federation territory. It is Bajoran, the UFP simply administers it. Quark could carry there because it was outside of UFP territory and probably because he slipped some Gold Pressed Latinum to the Bajorans.

Foreign vessels traveling in UFP space. No different than a privately owned West German Mercedes driving into East Germany for a day trip. Hell, in the USSR and DDR you could "own" a shitbox Trabant or a GAZ. It simply meant you were reliable party member and was rewarded.

The UFP did not let Citizens travel and work anywhere they wanted. The Maquis say otherwise. The same with smugglers bringing in Romulan Ale and other goods.

Again, DS9 is a station outside of UFP space. Of course trade would occur there. Look at Hong Kong before it was handed over to the PRC.

Post Scarcity Economy.... LOL. Not even close.

No,  starwars is about the struggle of the legitimate government trying to stop a rebellion from establishing a religious caliphate headed by the jedi.

Someone needs to check out of fantasy land.

Yet Chief O'brian is an enlisted rank. And even if everyone is an officer. Big whoop. Its like raising minimum wage. If everyone starts off as an Ensign, then that just makes it worth the value of a E-1 private.

Correct

And ruin a scifi geek debate?

Sod Off you Rebel Scum.

I think you're just playing around.

ETA: While visual canon is very important in Star Trek, they story made it clear that the Raven was the "SS Raven" (even though the models have been both USS and SS) operating privately under a Federation research grant.

And DS9 operates under Starfleet/Federation rules. Sisco makes that very clear in the Emissary.

I can refute everything you've posted. At length. But I'm at work and it's lunch time!