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Posted: 5/1/2015 11:11:12 AM EDT
[#1]
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If you're going to compare single projectile shots to the head with shotgun blasts to the chest then at least do it right: http://www.documentingreality.com/forum/attachments/f10/522714d1394734583-high-calibre-shotgun-deaths-50-calliber-gunshot-head.jpg Which person is more dead, the guy that took the shotgun blast to the chest or the guy who took a single round to the head? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You watch too many movies. This guy was DRT with a .380. It's clearly superior to a shotgun. https://theconservativetreehouse.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/trayvon-twitter-acct.jpg If you're going to compare single projectile shots to the head with shotgun blasts to the chest then at least do it right: http://www.documentingreality.com/forum/attachments/f10/522714d1394734583-high-calibre-shotgun-deaths-50-calliber-gunshot-head.jpg Which person is more dead, the guy that took the shotgun blast to the chest or the guy who took a single round to the head? 
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Posted: 5/1/2015 11:12:36 AM EDT
[#2]
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No, you can still pump a shotgun with either hand one handed. This is covered in training. Evidently you don't know about this... The agent who killed Platt in the FBI shoot out was wounded in his hand / forearm and still used a Remington 870 pump gun one handed to take out the bad guy... BIGGER_HAMMER 
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What happens if your AR takes a hit in the receiver and wont function? What happens if he has a sawed off and takes your support/primary hand off? What happens if you take a hit in the neck/head? What happens if you are using a pistol and take a hit in one of your extremities? Plenty of academic what ifs and they are infinite. I'l rack with a wounded hand/arm. If I can't I'll rack on another surface. All just as likely. Guys who have done force on force stuff will usually tell you that people get shot in the hands all the fucking time. We have a member here who got shot in the hand. I know it sounds dumb, but play some airsoft. You will take a shot in the hand/wrist/arm way more than you will anywhere else for some reason. If that happens with a pump gun, you're a dead man. No, you can still pump a shotgun with either hand one handed. This is covered in training. Evidently you don't know about this... The agent who killed Platt in the FBI shoot out was wounded in his hand / forearm and still used a Remington 870 pump gun one handed to take out the bad guy... BIGGER_HAMMER
Pumping a "worn in" 870 one handed isn't hard. doing it fast in a high stress situation would require enough practice to develop muscle memory. |
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Posted: 5/1/2015 11:15:06 AM EDT
[#3]
Sarah Connor jacked a shotgun one handed in Terminator 2.
That's all I need to see. Case fucking closed. |
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Posted: 5/1/2015 11:15:09 AM EDT
[#4]
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#4B is the worst of buckshot. #1 is best, then 00 and 000 Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I'll go. They say that 00 or 000 buck shot isn't even the best choice. IIRC the best choice for shot is[s] #4 [/s] #1buck (not Bird shot) due to number of pellets and weight of each pellet. ETA: The only shot gun I currently own is a 20 gauge double that would be my absolute last choice in a HD scenario. behind a Mosin Nagant #4B is the worst of buckshot. #1 is best, then 00 and 000 Very close to right. You forgot about 0 buck (excellent choice for defense) #4 is too small to reliably penetrate to critical depth so right about being worst choice of the buckshots. Best choices are #1 #0 #00 #000 in that order best to less best... BIGGER_HAMMER
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Posted: 5/1/2015 11:20:15 AM EDT
[#5]
No one seems to consider the aftermath. With a shotgun/birdshot, its spackle and paint. With AR, its doors, water heater and neighbors needing repair or replacement.
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Posted: 5/1/2015 11:21:29 AM EDT
[#6]
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No one seems to consider the aftermath. With a shotgun/birdshot, its spackle and paint. With AR, its doors, water heater and neighbors needing repair or replacement. RIP in peace water heater 1492-1985 EPA'd to kill |
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Posted: 5/1/2015 11:25:59 AM EDT
[#7]
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No one seems to consider the aftermath. With a shotgun/birdshot, its spackle and paint. With AR, its doors, water heater and neighbors needing repair or replacement. lol How are you going to spackle and paint those bird-shot holes in your drywall when you're dead? I'll go to Lowe's and get a new water heater on Saturday, when I am alive. |
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Posted: 5/1/2015 11:34:06 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The link you're using references this as a sniper shot. That almost certainly means that was a 7.62 NATO round that parted that particular Red Sea, and if that's a pic from Vietnam then that didn't come out of an AR. Not that it matters since pretty much every caliber will put a bad guy down after a head shot, even .a 22 round. Remember Robert Kennedy?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VW2C3exp0R4You're the self styled expert in terminal ballistics here and I'm the supposed fucktard. Why the hell am the one who has to explain that to you? I've seen a bunch. It's horrific. Imagine a softball size sphere in a persons body that looks like it got put in a blender. |
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Posted: 5/1/2015 11:37:48 AM EDT
[#9]
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It's horrific. Imagine a softball size sphere in a persons body that looks like it got put in a blender. Sounds gothic. 
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Posted: 5/1/2015 11:38:42 AM EDT
[#10]
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Pumping a "worn in" 870 one handed isn't hard. doing it fast in a high stress situation would require enough practice to develop muscle memory. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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What happens if your AR takes a hit in the receiver and wont function? What happens if he has a sawed off and takes your support/primary hand off? What happens if you take a hit in the neck/head? What happens if you are using a pistol and take a hit in one of your extremities? Plenty of academic what ifs and they are infinite. I'l rack with a wounded hand/arm. If I can't I'll rack on another surface. All just as likely. Guys who have done force on force stuff will usually tell you that people get shot in the hands all the fucking time. We have a member here who got shot in the hand. I know it sounds dumb, but play some airsoft. You will take a shot in the hand/wrist/arm way more than you will anywhere else for some reason. If that happens with a pump gun, you're a dead man. No, you can still pump a shotgun with either hand one handed. This is covered in training. Evidently you don't know about this... The agent who killed Platt in the FBI shoot out was wounded in his hand / forearm and still used a Remington 870 pump gun one handed to take out the bad guy... BIGGER_HAMMER
Pumping a "worn in" 870 one handed isn't hard. doing it fast in a high stress situation would require enough practice to develop muscle memory. It is not very difficult to operate a shotgun one handed. Compare being able to do that to operate your pistol off handed (mag release or safety on the "wrong side") or doing same for an AR (safety, mag release and bolt release suddenly on the "wrong" side) .. Those complex tasks do require a lot of training in advance. If you know what to do, doing it is much easier than trying to figure it out in the middle of deep doo-doo.... BIGGER_HAMMER
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Posted: 5/1/2015 11:43:53 AM EDT
[#11]
Not reading 6 pages. How many times has some variation on "I wouldn't want to get shot with it" turned up?
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Posted: 5/1/2015 11:45:24 AM EDT
[#12]
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lol How are you going to spackle and paint those bird-shot holes in your drywall when you're dead? I'll go to Lowe's and get a new water heater on Saturday, when I am alive. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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No one seems to consider the aftermath. With a shotgun/birdshot, its spackle and paint. With AR, its doors, water heater and neighbors needing repair or replacement. lol How are you going to spackle and paint those bird-shot holes in your drywall when you're dead? I'll go to Lowe's and get a new water heater on Saturday, when I am alive. 
That should do ya for awhile. |
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Posted: 5/1/2015 11:47:03 AM EDT
[#13]
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Not reading 6 pages. How many times has some variation on "I wouldn't want to get shot with it" turned up? Don't think we've had one. We did get a Ted Kennedy .22 to the head will kill anybody reference though. James Brady was unavailable for comment because he died of old age. |
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Posted: 5/1/2015 11:48:22 AM EDT
[#14]
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Bad guy holding your wife in front of him as a hostage. Gun to head/knife to throat/whatever... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Well, I'm off to bed. I'd like to make clear I don't believe or advocate the shotgun retardery that's commonly said in social circles. I happen to have the 590 out, and if something goes bump in the night that's what I grab. If you have (and I have had) an AR for a night stand gun than power to you. I have my reasons and I prefer the 590. I don't think I am disadvantaged for any reasonable scenario in the house by using it, and I don't think that anyone breaking in would think me a laughing stock facing that same 590. Night boys. Bad guy holding your wife in front of him as a hostage. Gun to head/knife to throat/whatever... I'm just working my way through these. SLUG!!! 
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Posted: 5/1/2015 11:50:00 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Okay, time to throw gas on the fire...how exactly does the AR "completely outclass" a 12 gauge? The last I checked the anatomy of human beings haven't evolved any further than they did since shotguns were first invented, which tells me that OO buck is every bit as lethal today as they were in days past. Moreover, to repeat the damage caused by 00 buck with one pull of the trigger you'll need to pull the trigger on an AR FIFTEEN TIMES. The rationale I go by is this- if it's a short ranged single target you want to put down immediately; the 12 gauge is king. If you need to engage ten or more targets or if the range is longer, then the AR is king. If you want to engage targets 1000 yards out with a heavy punch, then heavy rifles like M1a are king. Saying "The AR outclasses everything else" is like saying a hammer outclasses a screwdriver. They were designed to perform different tasks and there is no such thing as one single tool that does everything. People with heavy rifles like an M1A who engage targets at 1000 yards with a heavy punch will laugh at your AR. You do know that, right? I have a 12 gauge AND an AR AND a Garand, so I am not playing favorites. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I, at least, skimmed it. No one, hyperbole for humorous effect aside, ever said that the shotgun is useless for HD. But it's so completely outclassed by the AR that it's just silly to go with that when an AR is available. Okay, time to throw gas on the fire...how exactly does the AR "completely outclass" a 12 gauge? The last I checked the anatomy of human beings haven't evolved any further than they did since shotguns were first invented, which tells me that OO buck is every bit as lethal today as they were in days past. Moreover, to repeat the damage caused by 00 buck with one pull of the trigger you'll need to pull the trigger on an AR FIFTEEN TIMES. The rationale I go by is this- if it's a short ranged single target you want to put down immediately; the 12 gauge is king. If you need to engage ten or more targets or if the range is longer, then the AR is king. If you want to engage targets 1000 yards out with a heavy punch, then heavy rifles like M1a are king. Saying "The AR outclasses everything else" is like saying a hammer outclasses a screwdriver. They were designed to perform different tasks and there is no such thing as one single tool that does everything. People with heavy rifles like an M1A who engage targets at 1000 yards with a heavy punch will laugh at your AR. You do know that, right? I have a 12 gauge AND an AR AND a Garand, so I am not playing favorites. I covered this on page 1, here is 1 round of 75gr TAP in ballistic gelatin shot left to right:  Here is Federal 00 Buckshot in ballistic gelatin shot right to left:  As you can see the damage caused by one round of 75gr TAP is vastly superior to 1 pellet of buckshot, and very comparable to the damage from a full load of buckshot. |
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Posted: 5/1/2015 11:52:29 AM EDT
[#16]
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No one seems to consider the aftermath. With a shotgun/birdshot, its spackle and paint. With AR, its doors, water heater and neighbors needing repair or replacement. Not only that, but the more I hear the supposed experts here the more I get the feeling people here think firearms are like video games, where people have life bars and think that with a handgun you need to repeatedly shoot someone to whittle away at their life bar while with a rifle it only takes two or three shots. This is complete and utter bullshit. The reality is that there are areas in the body that are not a fatal hit, there are parts of the body that are fatal hits depending on a time vs damage ratio (low powered hits take longer to be fatal, high powered hits are fatal in a shorter amount of time), and there are parts of the body that are fatal instantly. It has been this way ever since the human body has been invented and all the terminal ballistics advancements in the world isn't going to change that. If you take a .50 caliber to the foot, you will lose your foot but you will probably still live. If you take a .22 to the head the entrance wound will be minimal but you will probably still die. Nothing whatever will happen if the bullet misses you regardless of what caliber it is. Listening to all this "This is obsolete" and "that is more accurate", you get the feeling it was absolutely impossible for soldiers in the Civil War to ever have been killed by Minie balls. |
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Posted: 5/1/2015 11:52:41 AM EDT
[#17]
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Posted: 5/1/2015 11:55:41 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted:
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It's horrific. Imagine a softball size sphere in a persons body that looks like it got put in a blender. Sounds gothic. http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view5/2716075/blender-party-o.gif Nice one. I forgot about the gothic angle. |
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Posted: 5/1/2015 11:56:04 AM EDT
[#19]
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Not only that, but the more I hear the supposed experts here the more I get the feeling people here think firearms are like video games, where people have life bars and think that with a handgun you need to repeatedly shoot someone to whittle away at their life bar while with a rifle it only takes two or three shots. This is complete and utter bullshit. The reality is that there are areas in the body that are not a fatal hit, there are parts of the body that are fatal hits depending on a time vs damage ratio (low powered hits take longer to be fatal, high powered hits are fatal in a shorter amount of time), and there are parts of the body that are fatal instantly. It has been this way ever since the human body has been invented and all the terminal ballistics advancements in the world isn't going to change that. If you take a .50 caliber to the foot, you will lose your foot but you will probably still live. If you take a .22 to the head the entrance wound will be minimal but you will probably still die. Nothing whatever will happen if the bullet misses you regardless of what caliber it is. Listening to all this "This is obsolete" and "that is more accurate", you get the feeling it was absolutely impossible for soldiers in the Civil War to ever have been killed by Minie balls. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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No one seems to consider the aftermath. With a shotgun/birdshot, its spackle and paint. With AR, its doors, water heater and neighbors needing repair or replacement. Not only that, but the more I hear the supposed experts here the more I get the feeling people here think firearms are like video games, where people have life bars and think that with a handgun you need to repeatedly shoot someone to whittle away at their life bar while with a rifle it only takes two or three shots. This is complete and utter bullshit. The reality is that there are areas in the body that are not a fatal hit, there are parts of the body that are fatal hits depending on a time vs damage ratio (low powered hits take longer to be fatal, high powered hits are fatal in a shorter amount of time), and there are parts of the body that are fatal instantly. It has been this way ever since the human body has been invented and all the terminal ballistics advancements in the world isn't going to change that. If you take a .50 caliber to the foot, you will lose your foot but you will probably still live. If you take a .22 to the head the entrance wound will be minimal but you will probably still die. Nothing whatever will happen if the bullet misses you regardless of what caliber it is. Listening to all this "This is obsolete" and "that is more accurate", you get the feeling it was absolutely impossible for soldiers in the Civil War to ever have been killed by Minie balls. 
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Posted: 5/1/2015 11:56:30 AM EDT
[#20]
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/snipping a bunch of pictures that are irrelevant/ That should do ya for awhile. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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No one seems to consider the aftermath. With a shotgun/birdshot, its spackle and paint. With AR, its doors, water heater and neighbors needing repair or replacement. lol How are you going to spackle and paint those bird-shot holes in your drywall when you're dead? I'll go to Lowe's and get a new water heater on Saturday, when I am alive. /snipping a bunch of pictures that are irrelevant/ That should do ya for awhile. do you even anecdotal evidence bro? 
Look, if you live a ways from the nearest Lowe's or Home Depot so you don't want to spend that Saturday after a home defense shooting driving all the way to Birmingham and dealing with the construction on I-65 or whatever just to replace a water heater, it's okay. You can use a shotgun, not eliminate the threat and you can be at your wake on Saturday so it's all good. As long as you don't have to deal with that traffic on your weekend, it's a bummer I know. |
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Posted: 5/1/2015 11:56:59 AM EDT
[#21]
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I covered this on page 1, here is 1 round of 75gr TAP in ballistic gelatin shot left to right: http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/WebData/HornadyRifle/223-rem-75-BTHP-Gelatin.jpg Here is Federal 00 Buckshot in ballistic gelatin shot right to left: http://truthaboutguns-zippykid.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/buck_fed_00_classic_a.jpg As you can see the damage caused by one round of 75gr TAP is vastly superior to 1 pellet of buckshot, and very comparable to the damage from a full load of buckshot. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I, at least, skimmed it. No one, hyperbole for humorous effect aside, ever said that the shotgun is useless for HD. But it's so completely outclassed by the AR that it's just silly to go with that when an AR is available. Okay, time to throw gas on the fire...how exactly does the AR "completely outclass" a 12 gauge? The last I checked the anatomy of human beings haven't evolved any further than they did since shotguns were first invented, which tells me that OO buck is every bit as lethal today as they were in days past. Moreover, to repeat the damage caused by 00 buck with one pull of the trigger you'll need to pull the trigger on an AR FIFTEEN TIMES. The rationale I go by is this- if it's a short ranged single target you want to put down immediately; the 12 gauge is king. If you need to engage ten or more targets or if the range is longer, then the AR is king. If you want to engage targets 1000 yards out with a heavy punch, then heavy rifles like M1a are king. Saying "The AR outclasses everything else" is like saying a hammer outclasses a screwdriver. They were designed to perform different tasks and there is no such thing as one single tool that does everything. People with heavy rifles like an M1A who engage targets at 1000 yards with a heavy punch will laugh at your AR. You do know that, right? I have a 12 gauge AND an AR AND a Garand, so I am not playing favorites. I covered this on page 1, here is 1 round of 75gr TAP in ballistic gelatin shot left to right: http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/WebData/HornadyRifle/223-rem-75-BTHP-Gelatin.jpg Here is Federal 00 Buckshot in ballistic gelatin shot right to left: http://truthaboutguns-zippykid.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/buck_fed_00_classic_a.jpg As you can see the damage caused by one round of 75gr TAP is vastly superior to 1 pellet of buckshot, and very comparable to the damage from a full load of buckshot. At what distance? were they shot into the gel in the same conditions (gel same temp, consistency, what was the bb test distance on each block?) What velocity? Showing two gel pics without backup isn't really any better than saying "Because I said so" |
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Posted: 5/1/2015 11:57:08 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not only that, but the more I hear the supposed experts here the more I get the feeling people here think firearms are like video games, where people have life bars and think that with a handgun you need to repeatedly shoot someone to whittle away at their life bar while with a rifle it only takes two or three shots. This is complete and utter bullshit. The reality is that there are areas in the body that are not a fatal hit, there are parts of the body that are fatal hits depending on a time vs damage ratio (low powered hits take longer to be fatal, high powered hits are fatal in a shorter amount of time), and there are parts of the body that are fatal instantly. It has been this way ever since the human body has been invented and all the terminal ballistics advancements in the world isn't going to change that. If you take a .50 caliber to the foot, you will lose your foot but you will probably still live. If you take a .22 to the head the entrance wound will be minimal but you will probably still die. Nothing whatever will happen if the bullet misses you regardless of what caliber it is. Listening to all this "This is obsolete" and "that is more accurate", you get the feeling it was absolutely impossible for soldiers in the Civil War to ever have been killed by Minie balls. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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No one seems to consider the aftermath. With a shotgun/birdshot, its spackle and paint. With AR, its doors, water heater and neighbors needing repair or replacement. Not only that, but the more I hear the supposed experts here the more I get the feeling people here think firearms are like video games, where people have life bars and think that with a handgun you need to repeatedly shoot someone to whittle away at their life bar while with a rifle it only takes two or three shots. This is complete and utter bullshit. The reality is that there are areas in the body that are not a fatal hit, there are parts of the body that are fatal hits depending on a time vs damage ratio (low powered hits take longer to be fatal, high powered hits are fatal in a shorter amount of time), and there are parts of the body that are fatal instantly. It has been this way ever since the human body has been invented and all the terminal ballistics advancements in the world isn't going to change that. If you take a .50 caliber to the foot, you will lose your foot but you will probably still live. If you take a .22 to the head the entrance wound will be minimal but you will probably still die. Nothing whatever will happen if the bullet misses you regardless of what caliber it is. Listening to all this "This is obsolete" and "that is more accurate", you get the feeling it was absolutely impossible for soldiers in the Civil War to ever have been killed by Minie balls. The bad-guy gets a vote in the matter. |
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Posted: 5/1/2015 12:06:08 PM EDT
[#23]
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The only time I've ever experienced a casing "stuck" in the AR receiver was because of a poor quality bolt and a dumb ass that cleaned it. Seems the dumb ass put the bolt in backwards, so that it was ejecting into itself, as opposed to the opening (To the right), which forced me to reach inside of it and pry the casing off the bolt/extractor. I'm a bit shocked that the bolt permitted the cam pin from being inserted, despite the bolt being in wrong. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I won't use an AR cause I dont trust anything that shits where it eats. That's silly too if you're not being sarcastic. I've never had anything in my mil or civvy side experiences over the years that was not ammo/mag related for a malfunction. I tried to torture an A2 once, got guilty and detailed it after doing nothing but light lube to prevent rust for a year. No failures. Even the "experts" on the platform recommend putting heavier spring and buffer packages in them so that they can talk with their mouths full of shit. Not for me. Nothing wrong with the gun for poodle shooting. Hell nothing wrong with the 5.56 in it's various loadings, but In my life I've seen more failures in ARs than any other gun to include high end 1911's. Most were stuck cases in a filthy assed chamber. I've never seen an AR with a stuck case in a filthy assed chamber. The only times I really hear about it are early M-16s that had filthy powder and no chrome lining, and guns that are used to shoot a ton of steel cased shit ammo, then switched over to brass without a cleaning first. The only time I've ever experienced a casing "stuck" in the AR receiver was because of a poor quality bolt and a dumb ass that cleaned it. Seems the dumb ass put the bolt in backwards, so that it was ejecting into itself, as opposed to the opening (To the right), which forced me to reach inside of it and pry the casing off the bolt/extractor. I'm a bit shocked that the bolt permitted the cam pin from being inserted, despite the bolt being in wrong. Ive seen enough to recommend having a take down rod with you just for stuck cases. I've watched too many boneheads with knives and multitools wreck the anodizing on their uppers and lowers trying to pry the bolt back or pry the case out when they fail to extract. Drop a rod down the muzzle and push the bastards out. My boss just lost a nice hog due to a failure to return fully into battery with an AR. |
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Posted: 5/1/2015 12:07:36 PM EDT
[#24]
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I covered this on page 1, here is 1 round of 75gr TAP in ballistic gelatin shot left to right: http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/WebData/HornadyRifle/223-rem-75-BTHP-Gelatin.jpg Here is Federal 00 Buckshot in ballistic gelatin shot right to left: http://truthaboutguns-zippykid.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/buck_fed_00_classic_a.jpg As you can see the damage caused by one round of 75gr TAP is vastly superior to 1 pellet of buckshot, and very comparable to the damage from a full load of buckshot. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I, at least, skimmed it. No one, hyperbole for humorous effect aside, ever said that the shotgun is useless for HD. But it's so completely outclassed by the AR that it's just silly to go with that when an AR is available. Okay, time to throw gas on the fire...how exactly does the AR "completely outclass" a 12 gauge? The last I checked the anatomy of human beings haven't evolved any further than they did since shotguns were first invented, which tells me that OO buck is every bit as lethal today as they were in days past. Moreover, to repeat the damage caused by 00 buck with one pull of the trigger you'll need to pull the trigger on an AR FIFTEEN TIMES. The rationale I go by is this- if it's a short ranged single target you want to put down immediately; the 12 gauge is king. If you need to engage ten or more targets or if the range is longer, then the AR is king. If you want to engage targets 1000 yards out with a heavy punch, then heavy rifles like M1a are king. Saying "The AR outclasses everything else" is like saying a hammer outclasses a screwdriver. They were designed to perform different tasks and there is no such thing as one single tool that does everything. People with heavy rifles like an M1A who engage targets at 1000 yards with a heavy punch will laugh at your AR. You do know that, right? I have a 12 gauge AND an AR AND a Garand, so I am not playing favorites. I covered this on page 1, here is 1 round of 75gr TAP in ballistic gelatin shot left to right: http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/WebData/HornadyRifle/223-rem-75-BTHP-Gelatin.jpg Here is Federal 00 Buckshot in ballistic gelatin shot right to left: http://truthaboutguns-zippykid.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/buck_fed_00_classic_a.jpg As you can see the damage caused by one round of 75gr TAP is vastly superior to 1 pellet of buckshot, and very comparable to the damage from a full load of buckshot. ...and in either photo, the damage shows that a heart muscle would still be destroyed, or a neck vertebra and spinal cord would still be shattered, or a brain would still be rendered incapable of further motor function. The difference is that the 75 gr TAP does all that and then goes on to perform a Gallagher watermelon smashing act. Nobody, but nobody, will survive a head shot from either round, Gallagher watermelon smashing act or no Gallagher watermelon smashing act. So what part of a Gallagher watermelon smashing act makes a dead man more dead? |
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Posted: 5/1/2015 12:08:43 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: At what distance? were they shot into the gel in the same conditions (gel same temp, consistency, what was the bb test distance on each block?) What velocity? Showing two gel pics without backup isn't really any better than saying "Because I said so" Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I, at least, skimmed it. No one, hyperbole for humorous effect aside, ever said that the shotgun is useless for HD. But it's so completely outclassed by the AR that it's just silly to go with that when an AR is available. Okay, time to throw gas on the fire...how exactly does the AR "completely outclass" a 12 gauge? The last I checked the anatomy of human beings haven't evolved any further than they did since shotguns were first invented, which tells me that OO buck is every bit as lethal today as they were in days past. Moreover, to repeat the damage caused by 00 buck with one pull of the trigger you'll need to pull the trigger on an AR FIFTEEN TIMES. The rationale I go by is this- if it's a short ranged single target you want to put down immediately; the 12 gauge is king. If you need to engage ten or more targets or if the range is longer, then the AR is king. If you want to engage targets 1000 yards out with a heavy punch, then heavy rifles like M1a are king. Saying "The AR outclasses everything else" is like saying a hammer outclasses a screwdriver. They were designed to perform different tasks and there is no such thing as one single tool that does everything. People with heavy rifles like an M1A who engage targets at 1000 yards with a heavy punch will laugh at your AR. You do know that, right? I have a 12 gauge AND an AR AND a Garand, so I am not playing favorites. I covered this on page 1, here is 1 round of 75gr TAP in ballistic gelatin shot left to right: http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/WebData/HornadyRifle/223-rem-75-BTHP-Gelatin.jpg Here is Federal 00 Buckshot in ballistic gelatin shot right to left: http://truthaboutguns-zippykid.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/buck_fed_00_classic_a.jpg As you can see the damage caused by one round of 75gr TAP is vastly superior to 1 pellet of buckshot, and very comparable to the damage from a full load of buckshot. At what distance? were they shot into the gel in the same conditions (gel same temp, consistency, what was the bb test distance on each block?) What velocity? Showing two gel pics without backup isn't really any better than saying "Because I said so" Unfortunately they are not side by side tests. I believe that 75gr TAP gelatin shot is typical of what you will see from most gelatin tests of it. The shotgun gel test was pulled from http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2010/02/robert-farago/shotgun-penetration-with-various-rounds/ they tested quite a few different shotgun rounds in that test. The 75gr TAP test is from Hornady and I found it in the ammunition section. When it comes down to it you have two vastly different wounding mechanisms. The 75gr TAP is carrying much more energy than a buckshot pellet and makes a nasty mess when it fragments. The shotgun pellets punch through and have far more penetration, but don't cause the cavitation of a good rifle bullet. Of course you get 8 or maybe even 15 pellets with the buckshot which greatly enhances the damage done. But generally in man sized targets to repeat the damage caused by a 12ga buckshot round you might have to pull the trigger 2 to 3 times, but nowhere near 15 times as GoodOlDave stated. If you want to look at more gel, just google image search 75gr TAP and 00 Buck gel, I believe you will consistently see similar results from multiple testers in many different gel mediums. |
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Posted: 5/1/2015 12:11:43 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Everyone I know that advocates a shotgun for home defense has never tried to fire a shotgun other than slow-fire at a range at a static target. Everyone I know that advocates *not* using a shotgun for home defense is qualified on them as military or LEO. That tells me everything I need to know. Not everyone. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1728345_Pistol__Rifle__SPR__Shotgun.html |
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Posted: 5/1/2015 12:15:23 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No one seems to consider the aftermath. With a shotgun/birdshot, its spackle and paint. With AR, its doors, water heater and neighbors needing repair or replacement. Bird shot doesn't even make it through small birds... |
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Posted: 5/1/2015 12:20:38 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Quote HistoryQuoted: SNIP ...and in either photo, the damage shows that a heart muscle would still be destroyed, or a neck vertebra and spinal cord would still be shattered, or a brain would still be rendered incapable of further motor function. The difference is that the 75 gr TAP does all that and then goes on to perform a Gallagher watermelon smashing act. Nobody, but nobody, will survive a head shot from either round, Gallagher watermelon smashing act or no Gallagher watermelon smashing act. So what part of a Gallagher watermelon smashing act makes a dead man more dead? Anecdotal story: My cousin watched a guy get shot in the face with 00 buck. The individual ran off and survived. He was shot in the lower jaw from an angle and while it destroyed his face it was not a deadly shot. That same shot from a 5.56, probably wouldn't have looked nearly as nasty and the result would have been the same. My biggest issue was your assertation that it would take 15 5.56 rounds to equal one round of 00 buck. In the end CNS is what stops the threat immediately. After that is vitals like the heart and lungs which will lead to fairly quick incapacitation, but not immediate. I choose a 5.56 because I am fast with it and if the first shot misses the CNS my time to the second is much faster than with a shotgun. If I had the option available I would use a machinegun operating around 900-1000rpm in short 3 to 5 shot bursts shooting 75gr TAP or equivlant performing rifle round. At 1000rpm 5 shots is about 1/3rd of a second, at CQB distances MK18 style weapons are very controllable and can easily be kept on target. |
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Posted: 5/1/2015 12:26:33 PM EDT
[#30]
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Posted: 5/1/2015 12:29:46 PM EDT
[#31]
This is why I keep an L1A1 w/ 30 rounds of 155gr amax by the nightstand.
Same capacity as the AR, better terminal ballistics than 5.56, and much lighter recoil than 12ga.
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Posted: 5/1/2015 12:31:31 PM EDT
[#32]
OP, a thread of this subject is always good for several pages of replies on this board.
It's like putting a worm on a hook and lowering it into the lake in front of a school of hungry bluegills. You are sure to get a lot of bites. My favorite rifle is an AK-74. I love it. Low recoil, easy to maneuver, and very high capacity. Also effective for PD using the Hornady 60-grain rounds with the V-MAX bullet. BUT.....would I use it for home defense? Absolutely not. Instead I force myself to use a 1911 pistol and a Remington Tactical 870 12-guage shotgun. Why? Because in my little Appalachian town almost every home has one or two 12-guage shotguns. So, it is almost taken for granted that a homeowner would shoot an intruder with a 12-guage shotgun here. NO way I would use my favorite AK-74 for home defense and then have the local DA and news media thinking about charging me with a crime of murder when I was forced to defend myself in my own home. So, I hate shotguns but that does not mean that I cannot use one proficiently. So I go with Federal Police Tactical 00 buckshot 12-guage shells and force myself to shoot that sucker enough to stay proficient. Thus I am using a "politically correct" firearm for home defense here in Appalachia. A surprising number of local Appalachian people consider the AK-74 to be a "commie gun" and you are being a "disloyal" American if you own one. Seriously, I have had them tell me that - in a nice way thankfully. They also can't understand how an old retired Vietnam vet and career military guy like me would like a "commie gun." |
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Posted: 5/1/2015 12:34:21 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OP, a thread of this subject is always good for several pages of replies on this board. It's like putting a worm on a hook and lowering it into the lake in front of a school of hungry bluegills. You are sure to get a lot of bites. My favorite rifle is an AK-74. I love it. Low recoil, easy to maneuver, and very high capacity. Also effective for PD using the Hornady 60-grain rounds with the V-MAX bullet. BUT.....would I use it for home defense? Absolutely not. Instead I force myself to use a 1911 pistol and a Remington Tactical 870 12-guage shotgun. Why? Because in my little Appalachian town almost every home has one or two 12-guage shotguns. So, it is almost taken for granted that a homeowner would shoot an intruder with a 12-guage shotgun here. NO way I would use my favorite AK-74 for home defense and then have the local DA and news media thinking about charging me with a crime of murder when I was forced to defend myself in my own home. So, I hate shotguns but that does not mean that I cannot use one proficiently. So I go with Federal Police Tactical 00 buckshot 12-guage shells and force myself to shoot that sucker enough to stay proficient. Thus I am using a "politically correct" firearm for home defense here in Appalachia. A surprising number of local Appalachian people consider the AK-74 to be a "commie gun" and you are being a "disloyal" American if you own one. Seriously, I have had them tell me that - in a nice way thankfully. They also can't understand how an old retired Vietnam vet and career military guy like me would like a "commie gun." 
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Posted: 5/1/2015 12:35:11 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Those have to be damn near muzzle to skin contact hits. You mean you DON'T try to use contact shots? Better chance of not missing, and all. I mean, the only way to really make a shotgun better is to make it longer. Like if it were more like a halberd, and then... That's it! The new shotgun-halberd! * 70" barrel * 25 round magazine (with birdshot, obviously) * Bird's head grip * Axe blade * Combination cavalry hook and bottle opener * Flashlight for low-light use I'm gonna kickstarter this shit and make a fortune. The BEARBUSTER 3000! 
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Posted: 5/1/2015 12:41:34 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Bird shot doesn't even make it through small birds... Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
No one seems to consider the aftermath. With a shotgun/birdshot, its spackle and paint. With AR, its doors, water heater and neighbors needing repair or replacement. Bird shot doesn't even make it through small birds... This. Bird Shot is for Shooting Birds... BIGGER_HAMMER
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Posted: 5/1/2015 12:45:34 PM EDT
[#37]
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Posted: 5/1/2015 12:46:19 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
do you even anecdotal evidence bro? http://truthaboutguns-zippykid.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/bird_8_heavy_dove_b.jpg http://frankbaumer.com/Heartland%20Pictures/1_Pics/Hornady_80268_223_TAP_FPD_75gr_BTHP.jpg Look, if you live a ways from the nearest Lowe's or Home Depot so you don't want to spend that Saturday after a home defense shooting driving all the way to Birmingham and dealing with the construction on I-65 or whatever just to replace a water heater, it's okay. You can use a shotgun, not eliminate the threat and you can be at your wake on Saturday so it's all good. As long as you don't have to deal with that traffic on your weekend, it's a bummer I know. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
No one seems to consider the aftermath. With a shotgun/birdshot, its spackle and paint. With AR, its doors, water heater and neighbors needing repair or replacement. lol How are you going to spackle and paint those bird-shot holes in your drywall when you're dead? I'll go to Lowe's and get a new water heater on Saturday, when I am alive. /snipping a bunch of pictures that are irrelevant/ That should do ya for awhile. do you even anecdotal evidence bro? http://truthaboutguns-zippykid.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/bird_8_heavy_dove_b.jpg http://frankbaumer.com/Heartland%20Pictures/1_Pics/Hornady_80268_223_TAP_FPD_75gr_BTHP.jpg Look, if you live a ways from the nearest Lowe's or Home Depot so you don't want to spend that Saturday after a home defense shooting driving all the way to Birmingham and dealing with the construction on I-65 or whatever just to replace a water heater, it's okay. You can use a shotgun, not eliminate the threat and you can be at your wake on Saturday so it's all good. As long as you don't have to deal with that traffic on your weekend, it's a bummer I know. ... a wound cavity that size deeper (where the vitals are) would be better. Too close to the surface = the bird shot affect. BIGGER_HAMMER
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Posted: 5/1/2015 12:46:25 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You've never seen peopel shot by 5.56 in person much have you? I've seen a bunch. It's horrific. Imagine a softball size sphere in a persons body that looks like it got put in a blender. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The link you're using references this as a sniper shot. That almost certainly means that was a 7.62 NATO round that parted that particular Red Sea, and if that's a pic from Vietnam then that didn't come out of an AR. Not that it matters since pretty much every caliber will put a bad guy down after a head shot, even .a 22 round. Remember Robert Kennedy? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VW2C3exp0R4
You're the self styled expert in terminal ballistics here and I'm the supposed fucktard. Why the hell am the one who has to explain that to you? I've seen a bunch. It's horrific. Imagine a softball size sphere in a persons body that looks like it got put in a blender. No I haven't. And I don't want to. I grew up on a farm and I've seen my fill of animal blood and gore and what bullets are able to do to their tissue so I'm not itching to see human blood and gore and what bullets are able to do to their tissue, thank you very much. Nobody here is saying the 5.56 won't kill. Numerous wars and the occasional DC sniper proved the 5.56 will kill. The fucking raccoons I had declared jihad on after they terminated our entire poultry stock certainly know the 5.56 can kill. It's the preposterous notion that the 12 gauge which has proven itself time after time in the past has somehow spontaneously become a Nerf toy now that the 5.56 has been invented that makes my head short circuit. |
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Posted: 5/1/2015 12:53:47 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OP, a thread of this subject is always good for several pages of replies on this board. It's like putting a worm on a hook and lowering it into the lake in front of a school of hungry bluegills. You are sure to get a lot of bites. My favorite rifle is an AK-74. I love it. Low recoil, easy to maneuver, and very high capacity. Also effective for PD using the Hornady 60-grain rounds with the V-MAX bullet. BUT.....would I use it for home defense? Absolutely not. Instead I force myself to use a 1911 pistol and a Remington Tactical 870 12-guage shotgun. Why? Because in my little Appalachian town almost every home has one or two 12-guage shotguns. So, it is almost taken for granted that a homeowner would shoot an intruder with a 12-guage shotgun here. NO way I would use my favorite AK-74 for home defense and then have the local DA and news media thinking about charging me with a crime of murder when I was forced to defend myself in my own home. So, I hate shotguns but that does not mean that I cannot use one proficiently. So I go with Federal Police Tactical 00 buckshot 12-guage shells and force myself to shoot that sucker enough to stay proficient. Thus I am using a "politically correct" firearm for home defense here in Appalachia. A surprising number of local Appalachian people consider the AK-74 to be a "commie gun" and you are being a "disloyal" American if you own one. Seriously, I have had them tell me that - in a nice way thankfully. They also can't understand how an old retired Vietnam vet and career military guy like me would like a "commie gun." This part is the only thing right with your entire post. I live in Appalachia too. If I shot a single or multiple intruders with an AR the sheriff would likely send a crew of deputies to my house the next weekend to clean and fix any damage and issue a public apology for his deputies not being in a position to be everywhere at every moment, appeal for more funding from the state capital, and use my story to re- affirm his support of the 2A. I guess you should move. |
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Posted: 5/1/2015 12:58:17 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's the preposterous notion that the 12 gauge which has proven itself time after time in the past has somehow spontaneously become a Nerf toy now that the 5.56 has been invented that makes my head short circuit. 
Nobody has said a shotgun is a useless nerf toy. |
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Posted: 5/1/2015 1:01:41 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The link you're using references this as a sniper shot. That almost certainly means that was a 7.62 NATO round that parted that particular Red Sea, and if that's a pic from Vietnam then that didn't come out of an AR. Not that it matters since pretty much every caliber will put a bad guy down after a head shot, even .a 22 round. Remember Robert Kennedy? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VW2C3exp0R4You're the self styled expert in terminal ballistics here and I'm the supposed fucktard. Why the hell am the one who has to explain that to you? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: You've been watching too much television, friend... http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/Doolinbody.png Here, let me post a pic, since that's somehow a cogent argument over in the other 'verse. http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp57/IkeMcgowan/sniper_shot2_292.jpg The link you're using references this as a sniper shot. That almost certainly means that was a 7.62 NATO round that parted that particular Red Sea, and if that's a pic from Vietnam then that didn't come out of an AR. Not that it matters since pretty much every caliber will put a bad guy down after a head shot, even .a 22 round. Remember Robert Kennedy? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VW2C3exp0R4You're the self styled expert in terminal ballistics here and I'm the supposed fucktard. Why the hell am the one who has to explain that to you? I never claimed to be an expert in terminal ballistics. I'd say I'm an informed layman. I've read enough about the subject, and looked at enough evidence (not random anecdotes, which are a favorite of the shitgun crowd), to have an informed discussion with other informed laymen, and to not make a complete fool of myself to an actual expert. YOU, on the other hand, equated 5.56, specifically at HD ranges, with a single pellet of 00 buck. As the evidence others have presented in the pages after, this shows such ignorance of the subject that you seem qualified to discuss terminal ballistics with gap-toothed Cletus, who sometimes works the gun counter at Bass Pro, but prefers to work the fishing tackle section. |
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Posted: 5/1/2015 1:03:40 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not only that, but the more I hear the supposed experts here the more I get the feeling people here think firearms are like video games, where people have life bars and think that with a handgun you need to repeatedly shoot someone to whittle away at their life bar while with a rifle it only takes two or three shots. This is complete and utter bullshit. The reality is that there are areas in the body that are not a fatal hit, there are parts of the body that are fatal hits depending on a time vs damage ratio (low powered hits take longer to be fatal, high powered hits are fatal in a shorter amount of time), and there are parts of the body that are fatal instantly. It has been this way ever since the human body has been invented and all the terminal ballistics advancements in the world isn't going to change that. If you take a .50 caliber to the foot, you will lose your foot but you will probably still live. If you take a .22 to the head the entrance wound will be minimal but you will probably still die. Nothing whatever will happen if the bullet misses you regardless of what caliber it is. Listening to all this "This is obsolete" and "that is more accurate", you get the feeling it was absolutely impossible for soldiers in the Civil War to ever have been killed by Minie balls. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: No one seems to consider the aftermath. With a shotgun/birdshot, its spackle and paint. With AR, its doors, water heater and neighbors needing repair or replacement. Not only that, but the more I hear the supposed experts here the more I get the feeling people here think firearms are like video games, where people have life bars and think that with a handgun you need to repeatedly shoot someone to whittle away at their life bar while with a rifle it only takes two or three shots. This is complete and utter bullshit. The reality is that there are areas in the body that are not a fatal hit, there are parts of the body that are fatal hits depending on a time vs damage ratio (low powered hits take longer to be fatal, high powered hits are fatal in a shorter amount of time), and there are parts of the body that are fatal instantly. It has been this way ever since the human body has been invented and all the terminal ballistics advancements in the world isn't going to change that. If you take a .50 caliber to the foot, you will lose your foot but you will probably still live. If you take a .22 to the head the entrance wound will be minimal but you will probably still die. Nothing whatever will happen if the bullet misses you regardless of what caliber it is. Listening to all this "This is obsolete" and "that is more accurate", you get the feeling it was absolutely impossible for soldiers in the Civil War to ever have been killed by Minie balls.  |
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Posted: 5/1/2015 1:04:45 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: ...and in either photo, the damage shows that a heart muscle would still be destroyed, or a neck vertebra and spinal cord would still be shattered, or a brain would still be rendered incapable of further motor function. The difference is that the 75 gr TAP does all that and then goes on to perform a Gallagher watermelon smashing act. Nobody, but nobody, will survive a head shot from either round, Gallagher watermelon smashing act or no Gallagher watermelon smashing act. So what part of a Gallagher watermelon smashing act makes a dead man more dead? Quote HistoryQuoted: ...and in either photo, the damage shows that a heart muscle would still be destroyed, or a neck vertebra and spinal cord would still be shattered, or a brain would still be rendered incapable of further motor function. The difference is that the 75 gr TAP does all that and then goes on to perform a Gallagher watermelon smashing act. Nobody, but nobody, will survive a head shot from either round, Gallagher watermelon smashing act or no Gallagher watermelon smashing act. So what part of a Gallagher watermelon smashing act makes a dead man more dead?  What the fuck are you even talking about? |
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Posted: 5/1/2015 1:05:30 PM EDT
[#45]
We have this thread and then the one that says .223 wont kill a deer without correct shot placement.
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Posted: 5/1/2015 1:07:21 PM EDT
[#46]
All this talk on ballistics. How about lots and lots of video of ballistics test!!!
Ballistics Test Some highlights .223/5.56
You stupid birdshot jackasses
Buckshot
Slug
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Posted: 5/1/2015 1:07:40 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No I haven't. And I don't want to. I grew up on a farm and I've seen my fill of animal blood and gore and what bullets are able to do to their tissue so I'm not itching to see human blood and gore and what bullets are able to do to their tissue, thank you very much. Nobody here is saying the 5.56 won't kill. Numerous wars and the occasional DC sniper proved the 5.56 will kill. The fucking raccoons I had declared jihad on after they terminated our entire poultry stock certainly know the 5.56 can kill. It's the preposterous notion that the 12 gauge which has proven itself time after time in the past has somehow spontaneously become a Nerf toy now that the 5.56 has been invented that makes my head short circuit. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: The link you're using references this as a sniper shot. That almost certainly means that was a 7.62 NATO round that parted that particular Red Sea, and if that's a pic from Vietnam then that didn't come out of an AR. Not that it matters since pretty much every caliber will put a bad guy down after a head shot, even .a 22 round. Remember Robert Kennedy? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VW2C3exp0R4You're the self styled expert in terminal ballistics here and I'm the supposed fucktard. Why the hell am the one who has to explain that to you? I've seen a bunch. It's horrific. Imagine a softball size sphere in a persons body that looks like it got put in a blender. No I haven't. And I don't want to. I grew up on a farm and I've seen my fill of animal blood and gore and what bullets are able to do to their tissue so I'm not itching to see human blood and gore and what bullets are able to do to their tissue, thank you very much. Nobody here is saying the 5.56 won't kill. Numerous wars and the occasional DC sniper proved the 5.56 will kill. The fucking raccoons I had declared jihad on after they terminated our entire poultry stock certainly know the 5.56 can kill. It's the preposterous notion that the 12 gauge which has proven itself time after time in the past has somehow spontaneously become a Nerf toy now that the 5.56 has been invented that makes my head short circuit. In fact, I predicted that very, exact straw man. Quoted: Shhh, any minute now someone will trot out the straw man, and claim that we are saying shotguns are harmless, sub-Nerf, powder puff guns. |
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Posted: 5/1/2015 1:09:46 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
http://live.drjays.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/gallagher_sledge_o_matic_watermelon_smas.gif What the fuck are you even talking about? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
...and in either photo, the damage shows that a heart muscle would still be destroyed, or a neck vertebra and spinal cord would still be shattered, or a brain would still be rendered incapable of further motor function. The difference is that the 75 gr TAP does all that and then goes on to perform a Gallagher watermelon smashing act. Nobody, but nobody, will survive a head shot from either round, Gallagher watermelon smashing act or no Gallagher watermelon smashing act. So what part of a Gallagher watermelon smashing act makes a dead man more dead? What the fuck are you even talking about? Poor man's halberd. |
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Posted: 5/1/2015 1:12:34 PM EDT
[#49]
In honor of this thread I'm going to play BF4 and only use a shotgun. I'll compare my score to my normal rifle to scientifically prove which platform is better.
I will also not be wearing pants. |
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