...which is what I have been saying all along- lethality isn't so much the caliber or even the bullet, but where the bullet lands.  Granted, at ranges shorter than ten feet the 00 pellets haven't separated yet and are effectively the same as a slug, but even then, slug damage is still effective:

No, no they really aren't.  They're effectively a bunch of small caliber round balls that all hit in very close proximity to each other, but they are in no way effectively the same as a slug.  Physics is repulsed by you.



 

that's why he chose it, gotta protect that pre-ban water heater

WARGOBBLE11!!!1!!!1!1!!

 

Fuck spending my Saturday afternoon at Home Depot.  Is is right by a Costco and a Starbucks so traffic and parking is a motherfucker.  I'd literally rather die than replace my water heater.

I'll buy it!

Seriously though.

I have nothing against shotguns. I like mine with slugs. I have my reasons. I know the pros and cons and it's what I'm using. But fucking birdshot jackasses are just jackasses.

I have nothing against AR's, love mine but I am not currently using it for HD, I have my reasons, I understand the pros and cons of that. My choice. At some point a may switch over, but not right now.

Regardless of what anyone chooses, if they don't practice with it it makes little difference.
Understanding each firearms strength and weakness, your abilities, your home, your "plan", your "likely" scenarios and what's available is what counts.

But it certainly is hard to find too many cons with an AR...

But that doesn't mean no other firearm employed in an HD is not acceptable with proper ammo selection and training*.

*with in reason

Why did I bother to click this thread?

Body armor is great as long as you take a hit in the body armor. That stray pellet that hits you in the head of your dick is going to ruin your day.

That's one of the best ones yet.

Good grief, you sound like those clueless gun control nuts I argue with who always claim "nobody is trying to ban my guns" because there seems to be a hell of a lot of nobodys.  If no one is saying shotguns are inferior then why then is there seven pages of butt hurt from AR fans over someone saying they prefer a 12 gauge over a AR?  Why is that guy with the ballistic gel block fetish continuously boasting about the performance of the 75gr TAP over the 00 buck when to me they look like they equally make a bad guy equally dead?

I will say this again- I have a 12 gauge AS WELL AS an AR so I have no allegiance to either.  If it's a single attacker in the house, I'm reaching for the 12 gauge.  If it's a rioting mob of Obama's sons coming up the driveway  I'm reaching for the AR.  They are both good at their specific jobs so arguing over which one is better to me is like arguing whether a screw driver is a better tool than a wrench.  It's a free country...or it will be once we get a Republican president again...so your opinion may differ.

Nerf Gun --------------------- 12G -------- AR15

Does this word picture help you see how a shotgun can be inferior to an AR15 while being better than a Nerf gun?

Good grief, you sound like those environmentalist wackos I argue with who always claim "nobody is trying to ban my water heater" because there seems to be a hell of a lot of nobodys.  If no one is saying vented tanks are inferior then why then is there seven pages of butt hurt from tankless fans over someone saying they prefer an old fashioned tank?  Why is that guy with the hot shower fetish continuously boasting about the performance of the oatmeal rasin?

I will say this again- I have a vented tank AS WELL AS a tankless I have no allegiance to either.  If it's a single man in the shower, I'm using the vented tank in the barn.  If it's a hot wet session with the gf I'm hopping in the tankless powered bedroom shower.  They are both good at their specific jobs so arguing over which one is better to me is like arguing whether a nailbat is a better tool than a halberd.  It's a free country...or it will be once we get a reptilian president again...so your opinion may differ.

NO!  THE STRAW MEN ARE MARCHING!  THEY WILL ACHIEVE DRY, GRASSY DOMINION OVER THIS THREAD!  ALL HAIL OUR NEW HAYBALE OVERLORDS!



 

What if I told you, you won't know how many people are in your house

HA HA I love it when people come on GD and get so butt hurt when people disagree with them.  You are the one who showed a photo of a head shot from a 7.62 as proof of the lethality of a 5.56 AR, not me.  All I did was call you on it, and no I didn't compare a single pellet of 00 buck with  5.56.  I compared one ROUND of a 12 gauge 00 buck...as in one shell... with one ROUND of a 5.56...as in one cartridge.  If you want an equivalent photo of a shotgun head wound to compare apples and apples, here you go.  This guy committed suicide so we can safely assume only one shotgun shell was fired:



You got caught at a bait and switch.  Deal with it.

Sounds legit.

   That's why I wear an up-armored jock strap around the house. Got to protect those vitals.

And now you're shown to be a liar, dishonest, and utterly untrustworthy.






Or, you're literally too dumb to remember what you said just a few pages ago.  





 

You stated:





Which appears to directly compare one pellet of buck to one round of 5.56.

The best part of this thread is WARGOBBLE

What if I told you, that if there are multiple people in the house specifically there to kill you then it doesn't matter what you use because baddie number two and three will still kill you while you're preoccupied with shooting baddie number one?

...and what if I told you, that if baddie number two and three instead shit their pants and make a beeline out of the house after seeing baddie number one meeting his maker then it still doesn't matter what you use because baddie number two and three won't be there anymore to be shot with it?

This needs repeating. WARGOBBLE!!!

Is that the war cry of turkeymen?

I hear they can be dangerous.

Pretty much sums up my thought train as well

wat

might as well nuke my house from orbit then, if those fuckers get me I'll at least deny them my water heater.

Shotty

Mossy

Remmy

BUT, now that he's done a 180 and acknowledged at least rough parity between the damage done by a single shot of 5.56 and a single 12 ga. 00 buck shell, I'll address his original question of "Okay, time to throw gas on the fire...how exactly does the AR "completely outclass" a 12 gauge?"



It's lighter, more compact, reloads easier, holds more ammo to begin with, faster follow up shots for when you miss, delivers it's damage more precisely, more ergonomic, easier to suppress for hearing considerations AND can remain more compact at the same time...shall I go on?



Clearly outclasses the shotgun.









 

Have you ever actually fired a gun or you one of those Call of Duty players, because what I'm saying now and what I said before is the exact same thing.   Pulling the trigger once on a shotgun fires one shotgun shell.  Pulling the trigger on an AR fires one cartridge.  Firing one three inch 00 buck shotgun shell launched fifteen projectiles.  To launch fifteen projectiles on an AR you need to pull the trigger 15 times...unless you were referring to Class III, and we both know you weren't.  

Please, just stop posting.  You aren't going to make yourself look any better.

 FWIW, I think the comparison of a single pellet to a 5.56 projectile is falacious to start with.  Because velocity=energy.  Energy transfer induces hydrostatic shock.  Hydrostatic shock short circuits the CNS.  You don't have to shoot the guy 12 or 15 times with an AR.  Its a straw man argument.  Plus all that stuff shade said.

this has me thinking about cover and concealment at my house. So I made a thread.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1744526_The_shot_gun_thread_has_me_thinking_____.html

You said "to repeat the damage" - which is clearly not the same between pulling the trigger 15 times on an AR and once on a 12ga with 00 buck.  I could see an argument for two trigger pulls on an AR, to one on a shotgun, but 15 is ridiculous.

Does it help that part of my decision (and yes I do train with it and not slow fire on static range targets only) to use the 590 was that the wife takes the AR as backup because it's more comfortable/easier for her to use?

I can see that reading...even reading what you yourself wrote, is not your strong suit.  Let me break it down for you.



"to repeat the damage caused by 00 buck with one pull of the trigger you'll need to pull the trigger on an AR FIFTEEN TIMES"



To repeat the DAMAGE caused by 00 buck with one pull of the trigger...that's the damage caused by 15 pellets.  Key word there is "damage", not, as you are now claiming, "to repeat the number of projectiles hitting the target".  So, again, you claim that 15 pellets of 00 buck cause the same damage as pulling the trigger on an AR 15 times, which clearly equates to stating that the DAMAGE caused by pulling the AR trigger once is 1/15th of the damage caused by pulling the shotgun trigger once, or, equating 15 rounds of 5.56 to one shell containing 15 pellets, which reduces to one round of 5.56 being equal to one pellet of 00 buck.





Read it through a few times if you don't grasp simple English.  Might help to run your finger along the screen as you reread what YOU wrote...and maybe move your lips while you do it, too.



Still not sure if a liar or just dumb, though.  Nor which benefit of the doubt I ought to give you.

Yes, buy my wife has three AR's of her own without needing to borrow any of mine

I wish my wife was more into guns...

She's not, at all.

Aw hey man, its your funeral.

My wife likes to work the reloading press.  She's not as much into guns as I am, but she still enjoys shooting them.

Does physics change given the number and location of the attackers?

Or is it a terrain & bears sorta thing?

She's all for me doing what makes me happy but she's not into it.

One of the first dates we went on was shooting. AR and AK along with some pistols. She's only gone with me a few times. She shot the Shotgun a few times but it's so harsh on recoil she's over it.

Last time she went with me we banged it out in the back of the cab in the truck with other shooters around

Oh and yeah, shotgun something or another...

Hurumph hurumph hurumph...

This is an interesting post, but consider that too many words - with more than one syllable- without references to FBO and pics of cats will not hold the micro attention span of GD

If I understand correctly you are suggesting that we not discount the shotgun as an effective tool for self preservation? You make some valid points regarding body armor and over penetration.
Personally I think it depends on what size box you live in. For example, in a studio apartment a handgun with a light is more maneuverable an easier to use. Even up close you can miss with a shotgun, add to that the noise, flash and concussion in a small space while half asleep. I believe this also applies to condos and most homes.

Home invasions are close fast engagements, if is unrealistic to think you can wake up fast enough to grab your 12 gauge and apply it in effectively. The same can be argued for handguns, but if you are going to relay on a firearm for defense then you should be training with it.

Here is a fun game, your SO will love you for this, My Ex was always excited to play it:

Set an alarm clock, one you are not used to for a random time after 0200, in fact have someone else set it for you. Go to sleep, when the alarm goes off, get out of bed and with your (unloaded and cleared) weapon of choice begin clearing your house. Obviously real world safety rules apply, unload show clear, no flagging ppl etc. This is a very sobering drill because, no one wakes up 100% on, and you would be surprised how many things in your house you are unaware of. Consider how well you see when you wake up that fast and how co ordinated you are on your feet.

Other than a home invasion or you own a farm in what is -regrettably- now Zimbabwe ( look up the abuse of white farmers there) I cant see a practical reason to reach for a Shot gun, UNLESS you can get up in the blink of an eye and clear your house with it. It comes down to personal preference. I cant see using an AR either, unless it is an extreme situation like a peaceful protest led by community organizers pushing their way **inside **my building and inflicting violence on my neighbors.  Even then sound judgement needs to be used, how sound is your judgement when you are half awake, scared and moving to fast?

Shot guns are effective close range weapons, but can you move through your house with an 18 inch barrel and full stock as well as with a hand gun?  That is just something to consider. If someone enters your home, forcefully that is a very dangerous scenario. Talking time is over, "scaring" the threat is over, it is all or nothing. .... at the end of the day it depends on your skill level and awareness of your AO.



Hope the cider turned out

My little fat grandmother type wife is really an excellent shot, I know she'll be at my back with either her CZ75 or the silenced SBR AR, but then I wonder "did I do anything to piss her off today?"
She watches lots of crime shows on TV and might be getting ideas.

Have you tried shooting it inside? perhaps a small room? without peltors and glasses?

That was not my intention.  No one is debating the meat grinder effectiveness of the 5.56 and it is silly to compare a simple low velocity lead ball to a high velocity steel, lead, and copper frangible projectile,  but it still cannot be debated that shutting down the windpipe, the heart, the lungs, the diaphragm, and a few bones all simultaneously is more effective than shutting down one single organ with massive trauma, particularly when the target is moving and a shot to a critical area cannot be counted on.

If someone is dedicated and wants to kill you, you may as well give up and let them kill you.  You can't possibly win.

If someone doesn't really want to kill you, then no problems, right?  Just do something to make them run away.  Maybe slam a screen door?


So you really don't need a gun at all.

I fired a shotgun from inside a car, once. I will not do so willingly again. The 556 rifle isn't on the list of GTG guns for shooting inside either.
The barrel was about 10 inches inside the window when I fired pointing out.

I better switch with her then, I wouldn't want to get killed

This guy tried slamming a screen door to ward off attackers.

He didn't make it

I've got 16 cameras around the house.  It's nice for the bump in the night and your not sure what's going on around the house.  I can look up at my monitor and see pretty much everything inside and outside of the house.  Every window and door is covered.  I figure it's also a good deterrent.