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No one is debating the meat grinder effectiveness of the 5.56...

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This is an interesting post, but consider that too many words - with more than one syllable- without references to FBO and pics of cats will not hold the micro attention span of GD

If I understand correctly you are suggesting that we not discount the shotgun as an effective tool for self preservation? You make some valid points regarding body armor and over penetration.
Personally I think it depends on what size box you live in. For example, in a studio apartment a handgun with a light is more maneuverable an easier to use. Even up close you can miss with a shotgun, add to that the noise, flash and concussion in a small space while half asleep. I believe this also applies to condos and most homes.

Home invasions are close fast engagements, if is unrealistic to think you can wake up fast enough to grab your 12 gauge and apply it in effectively. The same can be argued for handguns, but if you are going to relay on a firearm for defense then you should be training with it.

Here is a fun game, your SO will love you for this, My Ex was always excited to play it:

Set an alarm clock, one you are not used to for a random time after 0200, in fact have someone else set it for you. Go to sleep, when the alarm goes off, get out of bed and with your (unloaded and cleared) weapon of choice begin clearing your house. Obviously real world safety rules apply, unload show clear, no flagging ppl etc. This is a very sobering drill because, no one wakes up 100% on, and you would be surprised how many things in your house you are unaware of. Consider how well you see when you wake up that fast and how co ordinated you are on your feet.

Other than a home invasion or you own a farm in what is -regrettably- now Zimbabwe ( look up the abuse of white farmers there) I cant see a practical reason to reach for a Shot gun, UNLESS you can get up in the blink of an eye and clear your house with it. It comes down to personal preference. I cant see using an AR either, unless it is an extreme situation like a peaceful protest led by community organizers pushing their way **inside **my building and inflicting violence on my neighbors.  Even then sound judgement needs to be used, how sound is your judgement when you are half awake, scared and moving to fast?

Shot guns are effective close range weapons, but can you move through your house with an 18 inch barrel and full stock as well as with a hand gun?  That is just something to consider. If someone enters your home, forcefully that is a very dangerous scenario. Talking time is over, "scaring" the threat is over, it is all or nothing. .... at the end of the day it depends on your skill level and awareness of your AO.



Hope the cider turned out

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Have you ever actually fired a gun or you one of those Call of Duty players, because what I'm saying now and what I said before is the exact same thing.   Pulling the trigger once on a shotgun fires one shotgun shell.  Pulling the trigger on an AR fires one cartridge.  Firing one three inch 00 buck shotgun shell launched fifteen projectiles.  To launch fifteen projectiles on an AR you need to pull the trigger 15 times...unless you were referring to Class III, and we both know you weren't.  



Please, just stop posting.  You aren't going to make yourself look any better.

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So...if I understand correctly, the collective opinion here is that shotguns are pretty much useless compared to an AR

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Have you ever actually fired a gun or you one of those Call of Duty players

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I've noticed alot being debated about the suitability of the shotgun vs the rifle for defense . Both sides come out fairly strongly in favor of their choice, so here's a few random thoughts from my mind. I figure there's no better time to do this since the kids in bed, the wife is watching orange is the new black, I'm off tomorrow and just cracked the first of my home made ciders I bottles 3 weeks ago;

One, (these are my opinions mind you) Despite what some say the pump shotgun is NOT obsolete for defensive or even offensive work in the right circumstances. Just don't try to use it outside of its limitations.
For the average Joe,  a good pump twelve in winchester/rem/mossy flavors if set up right will definitely defend hearth and home against unwanted intruders and do it effectively with the right ammunition. _To those that advocate useing birdshot--------------- Can it kill? Sure. I'm not shooting on CAN. If I'm to engage I'm shooting on and with the more than reasonable chance that it WILL stop the threat on the first round, making my next one or two "insurance shots" superfluous. Racking the shotgun to scare a threat-- That MAY have worked, it COULD work, that's not a safe bet nor one I'm willing to practice or take when my life and more importantly my girls lives are at stake. You don't know who they are in the house, what they want or what they are on. The first indication to the intruder that I am there with a shotgun in my home is going to be a muzzle blast.
That being said, different fire-arms are much like different tools in a tool box. If you don't use the right tool for the right application you are going to get either sub standard or disastrous results.
Now, I have ARs, etc etc. I love them, but I don't have it for primary use inside the confines of the house walls. Many mention about ease of use of an Ar vs Shotgun. That can be true, however if you are well versed and trained on your tool, even though the AR is more "user friendly" in some ways, to guys that train and are used to the shotgun it becomes a moot point inside your own home. ( I have used the MP-5, M4, M16 and Moss/Rem shotguns in CQB situations {Navy} and I can say that I prefer the shotgun and always carried it when given the choice) Now I doubt I will ever have multiple determined, trained attackers assault my property/home. If they do then the shotgun is only the gun I use to get to the rifle, after the threats indoors are silenced. Yes for that siege scenario the shotgun is less than ideal, but you are more than under-armed if that's all you have at hand as well.
In my home, if there is a breach, everyone in the home is behind me and I am between them and the threat. Over penetration be damned, I use 00 or 000 buck. Max sight line in my house is 20 feet. A charge or two of 00 in your sternum at that range is going to do the job.

Lets get to  defeating body armor, I doubt anyone in my area breaking in will have a decent set or one at all on so I am not all overly concerned about that aspect of the issue.
Survival; If I only had one gun to make ends meet out to the cabin, I can shoot slugs out to 100 yards+ accurately, use buckshot or bird shot, all carried on my person to deal with any game or threat I come across, all from one weapon system.

Again, yes it takes more training to utilize it's full potential compared to an AR, but I have the experience and I am confident in its use.
I'm not saying I don't like the AR. I'm not saying it's less effective then the shotgun.I am not saying the shotgun is better than the AR either. I am simply stating that if a person or persons were to break into my home, they would not laugh and say "He only had a shotgun"
Nothing says dead like multiple .33-.36 caliber holes through your vitals.

On to legal issues (I hate this idiocy but it is a reality for some of us)
The shotgun is more "acceptable". It shouldn't make a difference legally and yes I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6 as well but for advocacy of the devil lets get into this.
If you mag dump into a person from an "assault" rifle you look different to the idiots running things and making decisions that affect your life after the incident than if you used the old trusty pump.
On the same sort of note the wife always said I'd get in trouble if I had to defend us because I would look too "professional". She thinks I'd likely double tap and anchor shoot. That'd look bad too..........

So, in closing I do not think my shotgun is obsolete. Neither do the military that use them either, and they aren't just used for breaching doors. However, you are not using it in a military application, you are defending your family, inside your home. That shotgun will work just fine, if you know how to use it. You can screw up with an AR too.

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I am not a vet, and never served...

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Doing it on the range enough to develop muscle memory would fuck that gun up.

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HD with a SG is like wearing a Polo shirt to a wedding. But hey, you tried.

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I, at least, skimmed it.

No one, hyperbole for humorous effect aside, ever said that the shotgun is useless for HD.  But it's so completely outclassed by the AR that it's just silly to go with that when an AR is available.

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Shotguns are a way of separating suckuhs from their $250.

No, all the camo paint in the world will not make it tactical.