My sister in law is german, she abotu had a heart attack when i took my brother to the range. she actually had a mild panic attack when i put the guns in my car to go home.

Sounds like she's "speshul".

If S&W had their shit together, they'd get "Walther" (which is to say, S&W using the Walther name) to invent a new cartridge.  Just like they did for .40 ("America's police caliber!"), but for Euroweenie sensibilities.

They'd make bank on the Frenchies' need for deniability and image.

Historically, the French have used 11mm class cartridges in revolvers, and .32 class cartridges in autoloaders.

If the main purpose is indeed counterterrorism, then the .32 class makes some sense, as generally higher velocity is going to be better at penetrating armor if you can drive it fast enough, and you'll be able to pack more rounds into a smaller gun - the relative size of the handgun and its cartridges being selling points to the public and politicians.  It needs very much not to be a "military cartridge," for example.

So call it 8mm Defensas or something else wankery in French talk.

Get a 90-95gr solid copper projectile with an engineered nose.  Target around .340-.345 bore diameter.  Large enough to be useful, but smaller than 9mm because it can't be 9mm.  Use a relatively long and straight-walled case.  Barrel length on the service handgun needs to be at least 4.5", maybe 5" would be better.  Use a very short and compact grip, target 15 rounds mag capacity, and the reduced diameter of each round would make the gun appear much smaller in the holster than a typical 9mm service gun.  With the lighter bullet weight and smaller diameter, using about the same amount of powder or maybe a little more, in a 4.5-5" barrel...  try to get something like 1400-1450FPS out of it so it performs better against soft armor.  Straight wall cases means it works better in subguns, and magazine commonality would be an added benefit there as well.  Subgun with an 8-10" barrel might produce 1700FPS or more, which should be defeating soft armor pretty well.

You don't sell it on armor piercing qualities, though.  You say how it has lower muzzle energy than 9mm, and how it's a purpose made police cartridge, not a military one.  Make up whatever claims you want about the engineered copper projectiles - and make some videos of rounds doing whatever you want them to.  The actual service ammo should be functionally AP, with modest expansion in gelatin, and most importantly have good performance in light barriers such as cars.

Yes, I'm talking about a "modern Tokarev," but you could totally do it, and I'll bet the Frenchies would buy it.

Unlike American PDs, European ones don't  generally use oddball rounds.

I would say they euro police need a change of mindset. The need to look at serious officer survival training. Side arms and armor for sure with long guns available on the street not at the station.

Zat is an Americaine thing...we are more..how you say...Civilized here in zee Euro      

Anything other than 9mm is oddball in a global context.

Everyone in the western world should own an AR/Sig/HK variant. the world would be abetter place. I mean hell. Even an AK will do.

I love the 9mm as much as anyone, don't get me wrong...

But this is a case of, "It's popular because we use it, and we use it because it's popular."

There was a running gun battle in London way back... the Bobby was unarmed. He shot at the guy by getting firearms off passing citizens.

They are deathly afraid of their own citizens.

I wouldn't be a police officer anywhere if I were not allowed to carry at least a decent service pistol. Disparity of force comes to mind. You could be a champion MMA fighter built like a tank, but you can only take on so many guys at once especially if they're armed.  

You do know the majority of European Police Service handguns are in 9mm right? Even the older firearms.

 






 

 

Indeed......

 

We don't use shotguns as anti-personnel other than CS rounds, just breaching tools, tyre deflation and animal destruction..

 

Our cops use them for less lethal. They used to issue CS rounds for them, but they use 40mm launchers for that now.

Whenever we run visiting  Euro police thru the range  they ALL want to shoot the shotgun.  The usual  sentiment is "Why can't we have THIS in place of that "crappy 9mm subgun"

They also are really taken by the .40 and full size pickup trucks.

I've never heard any cops wishing they had a shotgun instead of a SMG or carbine.

I remember a story about one Swedish cop who pulled a sawn-off SxS out of the evidence locker and used that, but I doubt it was authorized.

Everyone wants what they cannot have.

 

I've read that French police can opt not to carry a firearm, even though they are issued Sig 2022 9mm pistols.

Guess they are opting to now.

You just described the 7.65x20 Longue French cartrige for the Mle 1935 pistol and Mas 38 Submachinegun..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.65%C3%9720mm_Longue

France has @260 000 officers who are routinely armed whilst on duty, albeit 115 000 of them with just a sidearm. They have a further 18 000 unarmed officers, to serve a population of @66million. During their recent incidents, the interior ministry stated that @ 80 000 security personnel were engaged with the two incidents. Each was contained with a known 2 terrorists at each, who were in communication with each other.

I always opted for an MP5 over a shotgun, although I was detailed to carry one a lot..

 

 




 

 

 

I hated the MP5 because of that damn folding stock.  The day I finally got to shoot one with the fixed stock I was a happy camper.

Micro galil so they can say it's not from America

FIFY

I've never really understood the LE love for the sub-gun.  If I'm using a shoulder fired weapon I want the improved terminal performance of a true rifle caliber or a shotgun over a pistol caliber.  Sub-guns are loads of fun to shoot but we are talking about a tool for a job not a toy.

Shotguns can be very capable weapon systems but they require more training IMO than a rifle does to get someone technically proficient.  Rifles are also more useful if there is a chance your opponent is using body armor, and with the type of scenario being discussed here that seems like a higher probability than with normal police encounters.

 

Wow, that's crazy.

We have around 20,000 cops, all armed, serving a population of less than 10 million.

Everyone used subguns because back then an AR was  a full sized A1 or A2.  Same with all  it's competitors.  ( I used an HK93 for a time.  User friendly and ergonomic my ass)    Compact AR's are a fairly  recent thing.

It varies greatly, but most patrol cops receive little more than a very rudimentary training.

Lol. Knew this was coming.  As soon as i saw the video of the unarmed cop being executed i gave France 6 months before cargo pockets and MRAPS

In September 2009 we had @ 144 000 officers, currently @128 000 and still going down with Government imposed austerity cuts...

 

Do you even shotgun bro? A 12 gauge shotgun is the one of the most versatile weapons you can own.  

SMGs allow you to use the same ammo and the same shooting range (a big issue for many departments as they often lack rifle ranges) as for pistols. It's also a controllable weapon, and with the right ammo it easily punches through soft armour.

one 00 shell is like a 9rd burst from an MP5

True, I bought mine for myself as a retirement present..

 

Inferior range, low rate of fire, low capacity, and greater bulk.

Lost post..

lol

Did you learn that from CoD?

dt.

Except the shell puts them all through the same hole.....if you are close enough...

9 pellets of 32 cal lead balls. I'll bet the only thing you know about shotguns is from CoD. I grew up shotgunning homie