Quoted:


9 pellets of 32 cal lead balls. I'll bet the only thing you know about shotguns is from CoD. I grew up shotgunning homie

Quoted:


If S&W had their shit together, they'd get "Walther" (which is to say, S&W using the Walther name) to invent a new cartridge.  Just like they did for .40 ("America's police caliber!"), but for Euroweenie sensibilities.

They'd make bank on the Frenchies' need for deniability and image.

Historically, the French have used 11mm class cartridges in revolvers, and .32 class cartridges in autoloaders.

If the main purpose is indeed counterterrorism, then the .32 class makes some sense, as generally higher velocity is going to be better at penetrating armor if you can drive it fast enough, and you'll be able to pack more rounds into a smaller gun - the relative size of the handgun and its cartridges being selling points to the public and politicians.  It needs very much not to be a "military cartridge," for example.

So call it 8mm Defensas or something else wankery in French talk.

Get a 90-95gr solid copper projectile with an engineered nose.  Target around .340-.345 bore diameter.  Large enough to be useful, but smaller than 9mm because it can't be 9mm.  Use a relatively long and straight-walled case.  Barrel length on the service handgun needs to be at least 4.5", maybe 5" would be better.  Use a very short and compact grip, target 15 rounds mag capacity, and the reduced diameter of each round would make the gun appear much smaller in the holster than a typical 9mm service gun.  With the lighter bullet weight and smaller diameter, using about the same amount of powder or maybe a little more, in a 4.5-5" barrel...  try to get something like 1400-1450FPS out of it so it performs better against soft armor.  Straight wall cases means it works better in subguns, and magazine commonality would be an added benefit there as well.  Subgun with an 8-10" barrel might produce 1700FPS or more, which should be defeating soft armor pretty well.

You don't sell it on armor piercing qualities, though.  You say how it has lower muzzle energy than 9mm, and how it's a purpose made police cartridge, not a military one.  Make up whatever claims you want about the engineered copper projectiles - and make some videos of rounds doing whatever you want them to.  The actual service ammo should be functionally AP, with modest expansion in gelatin, and most importantly have good performance in light barriers such as cars.

Yes, I'm talking about a "modern Tokarev," but you could totally do it, and I'll bet the Frenchies would buy it.

Quoted:

You must have shot a lot of people with it then?

Quoted:


Shotguns are retarded for anything not involving feathered creatures or orange clay discs.

please stop.  Your embarrassing yourself and hurting the reputation of the internet.

Quoted:


Shotguns are retarded for anything not involving feathered creatures or orange clay discs.

please stop.  Your embarrassing yourself and hurting the reputation of the internet.

Quoted:





Wow, that's crazy.



We have around 20,000 cops, all armed, serving a population of less than 10 million.

Quoted:

I doubt that you've ever shot anything other than paper with that shotgun of yours, considering the dumbfuckery you're posting.

Quoted:

I doubt YOU have shot anything other than paper.

Quoted:



He was Armed....  

Quoted:


If S&W had their shit together, they'd get "Walther" (which is to say, S&W using the Walther name) to invent a new cartridge.  Just like they did for .40 ("America's police caliber!"), but for Euroweenie sensibilities.

They'd make bank on the Frenchies' need for deniability and image.

Historically, the French have used 11mm class cartridges in revolvers, and .32 class cartridges in autoloaders.

If the main purpose is indeed counterterrorism, then the .32 class makes some sense, as generally higher velocity is going to be better at penetrating armor if you can drive it fast enough, and you'll be able to pack more rounds into a smaller gun - the relative size of the handgun and its cartridges being selling points to the public and politicians.  It needs very much not to be a "military cartridge," for example.

So call it 8mm Defensas or something else wankery in French talk.

Get a 90-95gr solid copper projectile with an engineered nose.  Target around .340-.345 bore diameter.  Large enough to be useful, but smaller than 9mm because it can't be 9mm.  Use a relatively long and straight-walled case.  Barrel length on the service handgun needs to be at least 4.5", maybe 5" would be better.  Use a very short and compact grip, target 15 rounds mag capacity, and the reduced diameter of each round would make the gun appear much smaller in the holster than a typical 9mm service gun.  With the lighter bullet weight and smaller diameter, using about the same amount of powder or maybe a little more, in a 4.5-5" barrel...  try to get something like 1400-1450FPS out of it so it performs better against soft armor.  Straight wall cases means it works better in subguns, and magazine commonality would be an added benefit there as well.  Subgun with an 8-10" barrel might produce 1700FPS or more, which should be defeating soft armor pretty well.

You don't sell it on armor piercing qualities, though.  You say how it has lower muzzle energy than 9mm, and how it's a purpose made police cartridge, not a military one.  Make up whatever claims you want about the engineered copper projectiles - and make some videos of rounds doing whatever you want them to.  The actual service ammo should be functionally AP, with modest expansion in gelatin, and most importantly have good performance in light barriers such as cars.

Yes, I'm talking about a "modern Tokarev," but you could totally do it, and I'll bet the Frenchies would buy it.

Quoted:



Not mentally.  

Quoted:
Not many are. It's one of the dilemmas of arming everyone. That, and if the attacks are spontaneous/ambush anyway, it doesn't really matter what the initial victims are carrying. For first responders it could be crucial..  

Quoted:

Inferior range, low rate of fire, low capacity, and greater bulk.

Quoted:



Not mentally.  

Quoted:


9 pellets of 32 cal lead balls. I'll bet the only thing you know about shotguns is from CoD. I grew up shotgunning homie

Quoted:

Do you even shotgun bro? A 12 gauge shotgun is the one of the most versatile weapons you can own.  

Quoted:



Not many are. It's one of the dilemmas of arming everyone. That, and if the attacks are spontaneous/ambush anyway, it doesn't really matter what the initial victims are carrying. For first responders it could be crucial..  

Quoted:


How many years have shotguns been used in policing/military ? Sylvan from the internet comes along and says they are retarded.

Quoted:


The range I kind of understand.  I own an indoor shooting range and we have 5 rifle lanes, it isn't hard to do just a bit more expensive.  The traps require heavier steel and larger drums.  I do know that getting government agencies to spend money on needed equipment is like pulling teeth here, so I suspect it is the same on your side of the pond.

Ammo compatibility is only a money saving measure IMO.  Grabbing rifle ammo when you grab your rifle isn't hard or you can carry a couple magazines like I do on your person.  Most sub guns don't use the same magazines as their pistol counterparts so you would still have to do the same with the sub gun right?  I know our guys that use UMP 40s have to grab mags just like our guys with M-16s or AR-15s.

I'm not saying sub guns are useless.  You are right about them being very controllable.  They just would never be my first choice as a defensive weapon, and I do have experience with sub guns.

I own a 9mm Uzi, a 9mm MP5, a 7.62x25 PPSH, and have some time behind a UMP 40 that my department owns, all of them full auto.  I also have two M-16s and two AK-47s that are full auto as well as access to M-16s owned by my department.  They are harder to control, for sure, but not exceptionally so and they provide much better performance in tissue.  They also easily penetrate soft armor while using regular expanding or fragmenting defensive ammo rather than non-expanding specialty ammo like handgun calibers require.  While pistol ammo can be made to penetrate soft armor, it does so at the expense of terminal performance which is already lacking in pistol caliber cartridges even with quality expanding ammo.

Having a fair amount of experience with sub guns and rifle caliber full autos, I would definitely pick the rifle caliber every time.  I just don't understand why people would choose the pistol caliber if they have the option.

Quoted:

Shotguns can't be safely used past about 15 yards with 00buck in an urban environment when the officer is held accountable for every pellet (and the 5 year old two blocks over he just shot).  Even with Flite Control you get the occasional stray pellet that flies off the black on a B-27 target from 15 yards when the other 45 pellets are COM.  Not a thing you can do, a flaw in the weapon design, but it will still be your ass GD is second guessing and talking shit about.

The AR patrol rifle/carbine is far superior to the shotgun for general use and is capable of being used effectively at far greater ranges.  

Is the reason the police are so poorly equipped/trained the fact that European countries have no problems using the military to keep order and security within their borders? We do? That's news to me.

Is the reason the terrorist attacks have so far been in Europe the fact that US police are comparatively better equipped and trained to deal with active shooter threats? You've had quite a few mass shootings, including terrorist attacks.

Stay Safe over there,
Rob

Quoted:


How many years have shotguns been used in policing/military ? Sylvan from the internet comes along and says they are retarded.

Quoted:


Militarily primarily for breaching, and its not even good at that. Det cord ftw.

Quoted:



He was popped in the chest with an AK. He was out of the fight. He rounded the corner and was gunned down.  

Quoted:


AT-4 ftw.

Quoted:


How many years have shotguns been used in policing/military ? Sylvan from the internet comes along and says they are retarded.

Quoted:


Precisely.

The eurowennies think we are all cowboys.

Quoted:

Obviously a rifle caliber weapon will have better terminal ballistics, but for most tasks a pistol caliber is perfectly adequate.

The ammo commoniality is more about buying ammo in bulk than anything. It's cheaper to buy 2 million rounds of 9mm, than to buy 1 million each of 9mm and 5.56. The SMG is also easier to train people on than a carbine, which translates to less ammo expenditure.

At the end of the day it's about money.

Quoted:
If you're conscious, armed, and can move, you're not out of the fight.  I'm not talking shit about the guy, he's got my respect.  Shots fired and he showed up for the fight.  Sadly he lost his life.  

Quoted:


AT-4 ftw.