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Posted: 2/17/2020 1:44:38 AM EDT
[#1]
Bullshit degrees from diploma mills get you bullshit NCOs in decision making positions.
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Posted: 2/17/2020 1:46:30 AM EDT
[#2]
and women will never be in the Infantry
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Posted: 2/17/2020 2:00:52 AM EDT
[#3]
I worked with a guy who was a retired E7. He was GED level.
I was kinda shocked at the time, thought he would have had his shit together to get that far. He was in the air wing, I don’t know if that makes it better or worse. |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 2:02:10 AM EDT
[#4]
And make companies like AMU billions.
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Posted: 2/17/2020 2:05:56 AM EDT
[#5]
They don’t need a BS.
An AA or AS would go a long ways, but how about putting down the crayons and just giving a cert for reading, writing and counting beyond 10 with your boots on? |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 2:11:31 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And make companies like AMU billions. |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 8:59:03 AM EDT
[#7]
Some of the best SNCOs I had never went near a college.
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Posted: 2/17/2020 9:08:11 AM EDT
[#8]
Make E-5, eject and get degree on G.I. Bill.
Profit |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 9:13:08 AM EDT
[#9]
Outside of a technical field like engineers, i fail tp see why officers need college in any event, or at least degrees like BA, BFA, or any other degree that isn't heavy in military history and military arts.
If it were up to me, and it obviously isn't, all officers would start as enlisted then go to an academy that is strictly about how to win wars and lead men. |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 10:25:05 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If it were up to me, and it obviously isn't, all officers would start as enlisted then go to an academy that is strictly about how to win wars and lead men. |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 10:36:53 AM EDT
[#11]
USN talked about this shit but it went away quick, I think. At least as a requirement.
I’d like to see college composition 101 required for E7+ though, but it might screw up manning. 
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Posted: 2/17/2020 10:37:22 AM EDT
[#12]
Having a degree doesn't mean shit when compared to experience.... expect things like doctors and lawyers but at some point your experience still overcomes your degree.
This seems stupid. |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 10:38:51 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
USN talked about this shit but it went away quick, I think. At least as a requirement. I’d like to see college composition 101 required for E7+ though, but it might screw up manning. |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 10:39:09 AM EDT
[#14]
Maybe. Not from the predatory schools that prey on enlisted and issue credit for questionable "experience".
Golden Gate and a couple of others advertised, "up to two years of college credit for life experience and military training". Worthless, and degrading or depressing when someone tried to convert it to credit at a real university or college. |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 10:40:10 AM EDT
[#15]
Why would I get a degree and stay in a field where my income is maxed at approx. 100k, and the quality of life absolutely fucking sucks?
Sgt Maj has been hanging around officers for too long |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 10:43:20 AM EDT
[#16]
Dumb.
Can we not just worry about fighting and winning wars and shitcan all the bullshit? |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 10:45:49 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Dumb. Can we not just worry about fighting and winning wars and shitcan all the bullshit? Change my mind. |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 10:46:03 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In this thread we see who doesn’t know the difference between a NCO and a SNCO in the Marines. “... a Marine Corps that requires staff noncommissioned officers to receive college degrees...” 
An SNCO on staff is a different billet from an SNCO on the line. |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 10:46:52 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'll bet you 99% of civilians think this is how it actually works. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
If it were up to me, and it obviously isn't, all officers would start as enlisted then go to an academy that is strictly about how to win wars and lead men. Looking at you, mayor pete. Fuggin .mil larper. |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 11:02:44 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Seems pointless, especially for E-6. They start pushing the whole “You need to get going on working on getting your CCAF” as soon as kids get to their units from tech school. CCAF is the Community College of the Air Force. It’s an accredited college. These kids barely have a grasp on how to do their actual jobs, and mother Air Force is cramming a useless AS degree down their throats. I walked into the Air National Guard ten years after getting out of the Marines as a Sergeant. Got to keep my E-5 rank. Immediately was asked if I had a CCAF degree. I was like, “No... I went to the college of hard knocks known as the USMC.” Had to immediately complete two levels of PME courses “to get caught up”. The Air Force wouldn’t accept Corporal’s Course or Sergeant’s School as equivalent PME. All that PME and seven years later, I’m an E-7 working on getting an Associates Degree in Aviation Operations... Just so I can be eligible to make E-8. Oh and add yet another level of PME. If I don’t get both done in the next year or so, I can be “non-retained” and ineligible to re-enlist. I’ve got a good paying job on the outside, so personally I really don’t need the degree. I didn’t join the guard to get rich, I did it to get away from the grind of my regular job and fly in airplanes (Loadmaster). Not shocked the Marines are jumping on the bandwagon. Gotta make well rounded Marines I guess. |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 11:04:40 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Too bad SNCO stands for "senior non-commissioned officers".
An SNCO on staff is a different billet from an SNCO on the line. |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 11:06:29 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
E-9 ranks exist primarily to come up with petty bullshit, as some form of sadism that "makes the mens TUFF!!". Change my mind. One of the biggest problems facing the military is over bloated and unnecessary staffs having no purpose other than creating useless bullshit for the fleet to do. |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 11:51:32 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Too bad SNCO stands for "senior non-commissioned officers".
An SNCO on staff is a different billet from an SNCO on the line. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
In this thread we see who doesn’t know the difference between a NCO and a SNCO in the Marines. “... a Marine Corps that requires staff noncommissioned officers to receive college degrees...”
An SNCO on staff is a different billet from an SNCO on the line. |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 11:57:33 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Or ...officers. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
15 years ago, most of E7’s in my command (Navy) already had a degree or we’re working towards one. E5-E6 is cutting it a bit short. Do they still offer the tuition assistance program, GI Bill, and student loan repayment program? I was always impressed with the rare infantryman that was driven enough to complete a bachelors degree while on active duty and earn a commission. A truly exceptional Marine that could pull that off, and that was before the constant deployments following 9/11. Then again, this is pretty much already how the system works, so why not double down, heh? |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 12:01:08 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Outside of a technical field like engineers, i fail tp see why officers need college in any event, or at least degrees like BA, BFA, or any other degree that isn't heavy in military history and military arts. If it were up to me, and it obviously isn't, all officers would start as enlisted then go to an academy that is strictly about how to win wars and lead men. Good leaders-be they officers or enlisted-are where you find them. |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 12:05:35 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hmm. Same initial educational requirement as an Officer with less pay, a smaller pension and getting shit on more? Sign me the fuck up.  |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 12:11:56 PM EDT
[#27]
Not a good idea... at all. You will lose not just your guys with combat experience but almost all your combat arms guys. Operational tempo is often too high to take classes,... and even in peacetime many units have prohibitions on it. They won't give you permission to take classes just in case they need to be deployed (and don't wanna hear you bitch), and if you take classes without permission that's an NJP. As it is 03s are fucked over on the regular compared to almost every other MOS, and at a severe disadvantage. If this goes into effect, the only 03s you see as upper level enlisted will be guys who got out for a few years, finished their degrees and came back in. So none.
I really can't see anyone but POGs or guys who never set foot in a Victor unit pushing for this, but since they make up >90% of the Marine Corps....... |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 12:35:53 PM EDT
[#28]
As another poster said the Air Force is "ahead" of the game on this. No one gave a shit about Community College of the Air Force until the "Chief Cheerleader Political Hack of the Air Force" and his Merry Band of Bootlickers started banging the drum on this shit a few years ago. I am all for a troop bettering themselves, but the focus on a degree shouldn't be until they know their primary job, you know, what the military pays them for.
I've seen so many of these supertroops on their laptops banging away at an assignment from their degree mill, I mean higher learning institution, but when you ask them about basic job knowledge, they havent the foggiest idea. But hey they'll have a degree! I went round and round with a supervisor about getting my CCAF degree. I joined in my mid-twenties and already had an associates so I thought I was good. Not good enough according to my supervisor. I finally told this moron I wasn't getting a degree from some place that you had to send boxtops in to get a degree. That really set that peckerhead off. Now I guess you can show whatever equivalent credits you have to get your CCAF. Box checked. It's a hard enough game to stay in the Marines, so now they're going to make it harder? Think about this, how many retired Marines do you ever run into? I can say less than ten. |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 12:41:41 PM EDT
[#29]
I wouldn’t hate on CCAF, if they’re making time to do it you can now apply your GI Bill to finish a BS then a MS, MBA, whatever.
Hell of a benefit. |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 12:49:23 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Too bad SNCO stands for "senior non-commissioned officers".
An SNCO on staff is a different billet from an SNCO on the line. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
In this thread we see who doesn't know the difference between a NCO and a SNCO in the Marines. "... a Marine Corps that requires staff noncommissioned officers to receive college degrees..."
An SNCO on staff is a different billet from an SNCO on the line. |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 12:52:53 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
. I finally told this moron I wasn't getting a degree from some place that you had to send boxtops in to get a degree. 
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Posted: 2/17/2020 12:59:50 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As another poster said the Air Force is "ahead" of the game on this. No one gave a shit about Community College of the Air Force until the "Chief Cheerleader Political Hack of the Air Force" and his Merry Band of Bootlickers started banging the drum on this shit a few years ago. I am all for a troop bettering themselves, but the focus on a degree shouldn't be until they know their primary job, you know, what the military pays them for. I've seen so many of these supertroops on their laptops banging away at an assignment from their degree mill, I mean higher learning institution, but when you ask them about basic job knowledge, they havent the foggiest idea. But hey they'll have a degree! I went round and round with a supervisor about getting my CCAF degree. I joined in my mid-twenties and already had an associates so I thought I was good. Not good enough according to my supervisor. I finally told this moron I wasn't getting a degree from some place that you had to send boxtops in to get a degree. That really set that peckerhead off. Now I guess you can show whatever equivalent credits you have to get your CCAF. Box checked. It's a hard enough game to stay in the Marines, so now they're going to make it harder? Think about this, how many retired Marines do you ever run into? I can say less than ten. If you can't manage to get at least an associates degree in over a decade with the Air Force handing you 75% of the credits then I question a person's desire to improve themselves in any demonstrable way. |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 1:03:32 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Too bad SNCO stands for "senior non-commissioned officers".
An SNCO on staff is a different billet from an SNCO on the line. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
In this thread we see who doesn’t know the difference between a NCO and a SNCO in the Marines. “... a Marine Corps that requires staff noncommissioned officers to receive college degrees...”
An SNCO on staff is a different billet from an SNCO on the line. |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 1:06:02 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's a complete and utter fallacy that all good officers are prior enlisted. Good leaders-be they officers or enlisted-are where you find them. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Outside of a technical field like engineers, i fail tp see why officers need college in any event, or at least degrees like BA, BFA, or any other degree that isn't heavy in military history and military arts. If it were up to me, and it obviously isn't, all officers would start as enlisted then go to an academy that is strictly about how to win wars and lead men. Good leaders-be they officers or enlisted-are where you find them. ETA- and I've known shitty ones from all sources too. To include a guy who was a prior SSgt and literally brought it up every day. To another prior GySgt who got caught banging his Marine's wives and kicked out at the 18 year mark. An academy grad who was so bad he got held at TBS to work at the MACE indefinitely and another academy grad who got so lost the entire company had to get on line to search. |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 1:19:48 PM EDT
[#35]
If you are looking for managers rather than leaders...
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Posted: 2/17/2020 1:20:40 PM EDT
[#36]
Hard for me to believe he was referring specifically to E-5 and E-6, but as an E-7 and above, at least in the AF, it's supposed to become less about you and more about you taking care of the people entrusted to you. Boy howdy, nothing better than a MSgt flight chief who can't write, do public speaking, has no reasoning skills and spends most of his off duty time drinking. That translates directly into how he treats and leads people, which is a critical component of retention.
The AF makes it cut-and-dried. No CCAF associates directly related to your career field, and zero chance of promotion to E-8 and E-9. Different culture, I understand, but it's hard to believe there's no benefit to a better educated SNCO cadre in the Marine Corp...and I can fully believe it would take a forcing function to achieve it. |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 1:24:21 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hard for me to believe he was referring specifically to E-5 and E-6, but as an E-7 and above, at least in the AF, it's supposed to become less about you and more about you taking care of the people entrusted to you. Boy howdy, nothing better than a MSgt flight chief who can't write, do public speaking, has no reasoning skills and spends most of his off duty time drinking. That translates directly into how he treats and leads people, which is a critical component of retention. Different culture, I understand, but it's hard to believe there's no benefit to a better educated SNCO cadre in the Marine Corp...and I can fully believe it would take a forcing function to achieve it. Answer- no. |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 1:26:35 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Oh there IS a benefit. It's very difficult when you have SNCO's (That's Staff NCO's- which start at E6 in the USMC) that can't write at a 5th grade level....it happens, but not often. The question is, is it worth it to take them out of the fleet for 4 years to do it? Answer- no. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Hard for me to believe he was referring specifically to E-5 and E-6, but as an E-7 and above, at least in the AF, it's supposed to become less about you and more about you taking care of the people entrusted to you. Boy howdy, nothing better than a MSgt flight chief who can't write, do public speaking, has no reasoning skills and spends most of his off duty time drinking. That translates directly into how he treats and leads people, which is a critical component of retention. Different culture, I understand, but it's hard to believe there's no benefit to a better educated SNCO cadre in the Marine Corp...and I can fully believe it would take a forcing function to achieve it. Answer- no. |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 1:28:51 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
College isn't supposed to be about remedial writing skills or public speaking. If the USMC or any service has senior NCOs who cannot do either, then they need to set up their own remedial courses, not send them off to college as remedial high school. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Hard for me to believe he was referring specifically to E-5 and E-6, but as an E-7 and above, at least in the AF, it's supposed to become less about you and more about you taking care of the people entrusted to you. Boy howdy, nothing better than a MSgt flight chief who can't write, do public speaking, has no reasoning skills and spends most of his off duty time drinking. That translates directly into how he treats and leads people, which is a critical component of retention. Different culture, I understand, but it's hard to believe there's no benefit to a better educated SNCO cadre in the Marine Corp...and I can fully believe it would take a forcing function to achieve it. Answer- no. |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 1:37:15 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Oh there IS a benefit. It's very difficult when you have SNCO's (That's Staff NCO's- which start at E6 in the USMC) that can't write at a 5th grade level....it happens, but not often. The question is, is it worth it to take them out of the fleet for 4 years to do it? Answer- no. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Hard for me to believe he was referring specifically to E-5 and E-6, but as an E-7 and above, at least in the AF, it's supposed to become less about you and more about you taking care of the people entrusted to you. Boy howdy, nothing better than a MSgt flight chief who can't write, do public speaking, has no reasoning skills and spends most of his off duty time drinking. That translates directly into how he treats and leads people, which is a critical component of retention. Different culture, I understand, but it's hard to believe there's no benefit to a better educated SNCO cadre in the Marine Corp...and I can fully believe it would take a forcing function to achieve it. Answer- no. 
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Posted: 2/17/2020 1:41:11 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The ones on Tycom and Fleet staffs, sure. My interactions with the average CMC on the flight line are more positive. One of the biggest problems facing the military is over bloated and unnecessary staffs having no purpose other than creating useless bullshit for the fleet to do. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
E-9 ranks exist primarily to come up with petty bullshit, as some form of sadism that "makes the mens TUFF!!". Change my mind. One of the biggest problems facing the military is over bloated and unnecessary staffs having no purpose other than creating useless bullshit for the fleet to do. |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 1:49:51 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hopefully Community Colledge will do.
. |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 1:58:04 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hard for me to believe he was referring specifically to E-5 and E-6, but as an E-7 and above, at least in the AF, it's supposed to become less about you and more about you taking care of the people entrusted to you. Boy howdy, nothing better than a MSgt flight chief who can't write, do public speaking, has no reasoning skills and spends most of his off duty time drinking. That translates directly into how he treats and leads people, which is a critical component of retention. The AF makes it cut-and-dried. No CCAF associates directly related to your career field, and zero chance of promotion to E-8 and E-9. Different culture, I understand, but it's hard to believe there's no benefit to a better educated SNCO cadre in the Marine Corp...and I can fully believe it would take a forcing function to achieve it. If you want professional and educated members, start weeding out the retards before they make rank. I sure loved working for inbreds and hood rats that had room temperature IQ's. They couldn't lead people to a shit house, but they made rank because they were considered loyal, could run fast, kiss ass and looked good on paper. |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 2:02:54 PM EDT
[#44]
Are they going to pay them officer money too?
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Posted: 2/17/2020 2:05:11 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: College isn't supposed to be about remedial writing skills or public speaking. If the USMC or any service has senior NCOs who cannot do either, then they need to set up their own remedial courses, not send them off to college as remedial high school. I got an unfriendly private audience with our NCOA commandant for voicing my opinion about them forcing us to watch Conjunction Junction (seriously). I understood a little better after she pulled out some of the papers she kept for posterity and made me read a couple of paragraphs. I understood a lot better when I was forced to deal with the performance reports, decorations, award packages and informational emails those people pushed forward. They double and triple the admin workload...time you don't spend on the line, working issues or helping struggling troops. I've seen Army flightline tech manuals. I imagine the MCs are similar. Again, culture, but it's hard for me to believe pushing guys to accomplish (off duty) associate degrees has a downside. |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 2:06:55 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I've known a LOT of great officers. Quite a lot are prior enlisted, quite a lot were NROTC, or PLC (ie- not prior enlisted). Some were service academy. You may have a slightly higher chance of prior-Es being good, but sometimes they bring a lot of unwanted baggage or other issues along with them. ETA- and I've known shitty ones from all sources too. To include a guy who was a prior SSgt and literally brought it up every day. To another prior GySgt who got caught banging his Marine's wives and kicked out at the 18 year mark. An academy grad who was so bad he got held at TBS to work at the MACE indefinitely and another academy grad who got so lost the entire company had to get on line to search. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Outside of a technical field like engineers, i fail tp see why officers need college in any event, or at least degrees like BA, BFA, or any other degree that isn't heavy in military history and military arts. If it were up to me, and it obviously isn't, all officers would start as enlisted then go to an academy that is strictly about how to win wars and lead men. Good leaders-be they officers or enlisted-are where you find them. ETA- and I've known shitty ones from all sources too. To include a guy who was a prior SSgt and literally brought it up every day. To another prior GySgt who got caught banging his Marine's wives and kicked out at the 18 year mark. An academy grad who was so bad he got held at TBS to work at the MACE indefinitely and another academy grad who got so lost the entire company had to get on line to search. OTOH, two of the worst (and I mean they were terrible) officers I ever worked for...one came from the USNA, and the other from the University of Mississippi where he earned his BA prior to commissioning. No one source of officer material seems to have a monopoly on either good quality leaders or marginal / non-performers that somehow manage to slip through the proverbial cracks. |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 2:08:06 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The AF does it at both the NCO and SNCO level in PME. You write "researched position papers" and present them orally to your class. The plagiarism is epic (and largely unpunished), but at least you're forced to stand up and speak in front of people. Entertaining watching tough guys visibly shaking. I got an unfriendly private audience with our NCOA commandant for voicing my opinion about them forcing us to watch Conjunction Junction (seriously). I understood a little better after she pulled out some of the papers she kept for posterity and made me read a couple of paragraphs. I understood a lot better when I was forced to deal with the performance reports, decorations, award packages and informational emails those people pushed forward. They double and triple the admin workload...time you don't spend on the line, working issues or helping struggling troops. I've seen Army flightline tech manuals. I imagine the MCs are similar. Again, culture, but it's hard for me to believe pushing guys to accomplish (off duty) associate degrees has a downside.
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Posted: 2/17/2020 2:12:33 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Outside of a technical field like engineers, i fail tp see why officers need college in any event, or at least degrees like BA, BFA, or any other degree that isn't heavy in military history and military arts. If it were up to me, and it obviously isn't, all officers would start as enlisted then go to an academy that is strictly about how to win wars and lead men. |
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Posted: 2/17/2020 2:15:49 PM EDT
[#49]
Some of the dumbest SNCO's I knew had college degrees. Couldn't spell leadership but they had that piece of paper.
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Posted: 2/17/2020 2:18:56 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Too often (but not always), that was my observation. OTOH, two of the worst (and I mean they were terrible) officers I ever worked for...one came from the USNA, and the other from the University of Mississippi where he earned his BA prior to commissioning. No one source of officer material seems to have a monopoly on either good quality leaders or marginal / non-performers that somehow manage to slip through the proverbial cracks. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Outside of a technical field like engineers, i fail tp see why officers need college in any event, or at least degrees like BA, BFA, or any other degree that isn't heavy in military history and military arts. If it were up to me, and it obviously isn't, all officers would start as enlisted then go to an academy that is strictly about how to win wars and lead men. Good leaders-be they officers or enlisted-are where you find them. ETA- and I've known shitty ones from all sources too. To include a guy who was a prior SSgt and literally brought it up every day. To another prior GySgt who got caught banging his Marine's wives and kicked out at the 18 year mark. An academy grad who was so bad he got held at TBS to work at the MACE indefinitely and another academy grad who got so lost the entire company had to get on line to search. OTOH, two of the worst (and I mean they were terrible) officers I ever worked for...one came from the USNA, and the other from the University of Mississippi where he earned his BA prior to commissioning. No one source of officer material seems to have a monopoly on either good quality leaders or marginal / non-performers that somehow manage to slip through the proverbial cracks. |
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