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Posted: 2/17/2020 2:18:59 PM EDT

[#1]

I get that there are a lot of highly intelligent people in the military, and many join to pay for a college education. However, generally the enlisted ones leave when they get their degree / GI bill to pay for their degree. while people wanting to become officers tend to go to college from the get go to become a officer.

all this plan would do is either result in not having enough nco's, or nco's with huge debt. unless of course they provide a full ride to college, with the requirement after graduation you did 4 years as a nco. which wont work either, as nco's tend to work well because they have years of military experience earned through working their way up. you take a young college educated kid and stick him in a nco position he will not be able to do it well because of all the practical shit he does not know. ( ala clueless second Lt's)

the best officers i have ever encountered, were ones who did several years as a enlisted, and later went to college / ocs, and took all their experience / understanding of the problems in the military and combined it with their new rank of officer. they tended to have less of a " im better than you" mentality, and more practical experience of how to get shit done, as they were doing it themselves not long ago.

maybe make a program paying for a free college ride,( while serving in the reserves on the weekend to get the practical experience ) then serve 4 years as a nco on active duty after graduation. that might work, but probably not get enough volunteers for such a commitment.

far easier to do a 4 year college ride for basket weaving while partying, then lay around at home bitching about not being able to afford your college loans with your mcdonalds job..

Posted: 2/17/2020 2:22:54 PM EDT

[#2]

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Some days I think I missed out by doing all my enlisted PME through the books. Other days I'm glad I didn't waste a bunch of leave to go.

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I got another audience with the commandant when I described the same staff in an uncomplimentary fashion after they refused to lower the flag to half-staff when Jimmy Stewart died. They were concerned about offending our host German's "sensibilities". I was popular

Posted: 2/17/2020 2:24:54 PM EDT

[#3]

I will say one thing about the CCAF. It recognizes so many credits from tech school now that often it doesn't take much to get at all. By the time I went to get it after ALS I think I only needed gen eds and a speech class.

Almost worthless on the outside though

Posted: 2/17/2020 2:26:33 PM EDT

[#4]

After listening to SNCO read promotion warrants for five years I doubt a third of them could pass 5th grade reading.

Posted: 2/17/2020 2:30:18 PM EDT

[#5]

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...

the best officers i have ever encountered, were ones who did several years as a enlisted, and later went to college / ocs, and took all their experience / understanding of the problems in the military and combined it with their new rank of officer.

maybe make a program paying for a free college ride,( while serving in the reserves on the weekend to get the practical experience ) then serve 4 years as a nco on active duty after graduation. that might work, but probably not get enough volunteers for such a commitment.

far easier to do a 4 year college ride for basket weaving while partying, then lay around at home bitching about not being able to afford your college loans with your mcdonalds job..

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Served with some of those, too, but talk about your double-edged swords...a couple of the absolute worst officers I served under were Mustangs. Didn't seem to be a lot in the middle ground. The lower end had made it though a pay-your-fee-get-your-"B" military college program and gotten commissioned. It showed.

ETA: To be fair...the best commander I served under had a degree from East Carolina University in forestry. That was a tough one to explain.

Posted: 2/17/2020 2:36:14 PM EDT

[#6]

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Served with some of those, too, but talk about your double-edged swords...a couple of the absolute worst officers I served under were Mustangs. Didn't seem to be a lot in the middle ground. The lower end had made it though a pay-your-fee-get-your-"B" military college program and gotten commissioned. It showed.

ETA: To be fair...the best commander I served under had a degree from East Carolina University in forestry. That was a tough one to explain.

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Woah, woah, hey slow down there. C stands for commission is the motto of pretty much all commissioning sources

Posted: 2/17/2020 2:37:03 PM EDT

[#7]

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I will say one thing about the CCAF. It recognizes so many credits from tech school now that often it doesn't take much to get at all. By the time I went to get it after ALS I think I only needed gen eds and a speech class.

Almost worthless on the outside though

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Once you have hit Staff it's really just a handful of CLEP tests or a couple of local community college courses. At a certain point, anyone that doesn't have one only does so by their own lack of initiative.

Posted: 2/17/2020 2:38:30 PM EDT

[#8]

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Served with some of those, too, but talk about your double-edged swords...a couple of the absolute worst officers I served under were Mustangs. Didn't seem to be a lot in the middle ground. The lower end had made it though a pay-your-fee-get-your-"B" military college program and gotten commissioned. It showed.

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Given the good/bad split happens with high-ranking officers too, maybe it's not a mustang or O7 thing; but an institutionalization thing.

Posted: 2/17/2020 2:38:54 PM EDT

[#9]

How long till Congress critters get involved due to disproportionate impact on minorities

Posted: 2/17/2020 2:45:05 PM EDT

[#10]

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Hmm.

Same initial educational requirement as an Officer with less pay, a smaller pension and getting shit on more?

Sign me the fuck up.

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Right? I’m stuck at staff with a degree and I don’t make enough to deal with all the retarded officers running around. Fucking field grade koolaid.

Posted: 2/17/2020 2:54:58 PM EDT

[#11]

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I will say one thing about the CCAF. It recognizes so many credits from tech school now that often it doesn't take much to get at all. By the time I went to get it after ALS I think I only needed gen eds and a speech class.

Almost worthless on the outside though

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And yet...by the time they reached E-7 well over 80% hadn't even bothered to do that (circa 2012). I know that for a fact, because an un-Godly number of them ended up in my office, some in literal tears, wailing and moaning because they weren't going to get senior rater endorsement.

Coming out of the USAF a large percentage of enlisted population have an employable skill that converts directly to well-paid employment. Not a huge demand for infantry and artillery in the civilian sector, and by-and-large they have a shorter average non-retirement eligible time frame in the service. You'd think the USA and USMC enlisted would be pounding on senior leadership's desk, demanding more access to educational services, including vocational tech schools. I think those services would be doing their people a disservice if they weren't pushing them toward those opportunities.

Posted: 2/17/2020 2:59:32 PM EDT

[#12]

Fuck that shit!
The difference between officers and NCO's is that one group has diplomas, the other group has intelligence.

The most dangerous O's in the military were ones with multiple degrees and fancy titles.

Now the flip side of that coin, when I retired, every enlisted person that worked for me had a degree but they earned it on their own because they wanted to.

Posted: 2/17/2020 3:10:53 PM EDT

[#13]

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And yet...by the time they reached E-7 well over 80% hadn't even bothered to do that (circa 2012). I know that for a fact, because an un-Godly number of them ended up in my office, some in literal tears, wailing and moaning because they weren't going to get senior rater endorsement.

Coming out of the USAF a large percentage of enlisted population have an employable skill that converts directly to well-paid employment. Not a huge demand for infantry and artillery in the civilian sector, and by-and-large they have a shorter average non-retirement eligible time frame in the service. You'd think the USA and USMC enlisted would be pounding on senior leadership's desk, demanding more access to educational services, including vocational tech schools. I think those services would be doing their people a disservice if they weren't pushing them toward those opportunities.

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Push, encouraging? Hell yeah. Making mandatory for all? Punishing for failure to do the encouragement? That's where my bone comes in.

Point in case. I had a troop. TSgt. Dude didn't want MSgt. He sure as shit didn't need to be a MSgt (think crusty, old, hostile, toxic) and he only had like 3 or 4 years left to 20 (of which his oft-stated goal was 20 and GTFO)

Topic of Crs14 comes up. Leadership pushes and pushes and continues to push. Eventually called into the Chiefs office about it and through the conversation it becomes apparent that they're floating paperwork/NJP to make him do it. I look at them

. He doesn't do it, he is ineligible for promotion. It's as simple as that. And you know what? That's ok!

One overwhelming frustration with leadership in the AF was the insistent push towards using what are meant to be discretionary tools towards promotion and making them quasi-mandatory. Promotion requires xxx steps. Member should be encouraged to meets those steps, 100%. Forced or ordered to? Fuck no. Just ensure the member is aware that this is it. This is as far in rank as you will make. Some are ok with that

Posted: 2/17/2020 3:17:40 PM EDT

[#14]

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Topic of Crs14 comes up. Leadership pushes and pushes and continues to push. Eventually called into the Chiefs office about it and through the conversation it becomes apparent that they're floating paperwork/NJP to make him do it.

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LOL, I'd love to see how they articulate "there's a valid military purpose in ordering him to go to this course!" As a former JAG, I'd tell them nope, not going there.

Posted: 2/17/2020 3:19:06 PM EDT

[#15]

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Push, encouraging? Hell yeah. Making mandatory for all? Punishing for failure to do the encouragement? That's where my bone comes in.

Point in case. I had a troop. TSgt. Dude didn't want MSgt. He sure as shit didn't need to be a MSgt (think crusty, old, hostile, toxic) and he only had like 3 or 4 years left to 20 (of which his oft-stated goal was 20 and GTFO)

Topic of Crs14 comes up. Leadership pushes and pushes and continues to push. Eventually called into the Chiefs office about it and through the conversation it becomes apparent that they're floating paperwork/NJP to make him do it. I look at them

. He doesn't do it, he is ineligible for promotion. It's as simple as that. And you know what? That's ok!

One overwhelming frustration with leadership in the AF was the insistent push towards using what are meant to be discretionary tools towards promotion and making them quasi-mandatory. Promotion requires xxx steps. Member should be encouraged to meets those steps, 100%. Forced or ordered to? Fuck no. Just ensure the member is aware that this is it. This is as far in rank as you will make. Some are ok with that

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Damn dude, you stole tbe words right out of my mouth. This is precisely why I left the AF (active duty) after 12 years. The voluntold career-creep criteria got incrementally worse as each year progressed.

Posted: 2/17/2020 3:19:53 PM EDT

[#16]

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Quoted:
Push, encouraging? Hell yeah. Making mandatory for all? Punishing for failure to do the encouragement? That's where my bone comes in.

Point in case. I had a troop. TSgt. Dude didn't want MSgt. He sure as shit didn't need to be a MSgt (think crusty, old, hostile, toxic) and he only had like 3 or 4 years left to 20 (of which his oft-stated goal was 20 and GTFO)

Topic of Crs14 comes up. Leadership pushes and pushes and continues to push. Eventually called into the Chiefs office about it and through the conversation it becomes apparent that they're floating paperwork/NJP to make him do it. I look at them

. He doesn't do it, he is ineligible for promotion. It's as simple as that. And you know what? That's ok!

One overwhelming frustration with leadership in the AF was the insistent push towards using what are meant to be discretionary tools towards promotion and making them quasi-mandatory. Promotion requires xxx steps. Member should be encouraged to meets those steps, 100%. Forced or ordered to? Fuck no. Just ensure the member is aware that this is it. This is as far in rank as you will make. Some are ok with that

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Quoted:

And yet...by the time they reached E-7 well over 80% hadn't even bothered to do that (circa 2012). I know that for a fact, because an un-Godly number of them ended up in my office, some in literal tears, wailing and moaning because they weren't going to get senior rater endorsement.

Coming out of the USAF a large percentage of enlisted population have an employable skill that converts directly to well-paid employment. Not a huge demand for infantry and artillery in the civilian sector, and by-and-large they have a shorter average non-retirement eligible time frame in the service. You'd think the USA and USMC enlisted would be pounding on senior leadership's desk, demanding more access to educational services, including vocational tech schools. I think those services would be doing their people a disservice if they weren't pushing them toward those opportunities.

Push, encouraging? Hell yeah. Making mandatory for all? Punishing for failure to do the encouragement? That's where my bone comes in.

Point in case. I had a troop. TSgt. Dude didn't want MSgt. He sure as shit didn't need to be a MSgt (think crusty, old, hostile, toxic) and he only had like 3 or 4 years left to 20 (of which his oft-stated goal was 20 and GTFO)

Topic of Crs14 comes up. Leadership pushes and pushes and continues to push. Eventually called into the Chiefs office about it and through the conversation it becomes apparent that they're floating paperwork/NJP to make him do it. I look at them

. He doesn't do it, he is ineligible for promotion. It's as simple as that. And you know what? That's ok!

One overwhelming frustration with leadership in the AF was the insistent push towards using what are meant to be discretionary tools towards promotion and making them quasi-mandatory. Promotion requires xxx steps. Member should be encouraged to meets those steps, 100%. Forced or ordered to? Fuck no. Just ensure the member is aware that this is it. This is as far in rank as you will make. Some are ok with that

I hate this mentality. "MAKE THE LCPLS DO LEADING MARINES SO THEY CAN GET PROMOTED!!!!" Fuck man, maybe they don't want to get promoted? Maybe if he is going to be a good NCO he should have the drive to do it WITHOUT me making him do it??? Novel idea right...

Posted: 2/17/2020 4:01:24 PM EDT

[#17]

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I've known a LOT of great officers. Quite a lot are prior enlisted, quite a lot were NROTC, or PLC (ie- not prior enlisted). Some were service academy. You may have a slightly higher chance of prior-Es being good, but sometimes they bring a lot of unwanted baggage or other issues along with them.

ETA- and I've known shitty ones from all sources too. To include a guy who was a prior SSgt and literally brought it up every day. To another prior GySgt who got caught banging his Marine's wives and kicked out at the 18 year mark. An academy grad who was so bad he got held at TBS to work at the MACE indefinitely and another academy grad who got so lost the entire company had to get on line to search.

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Outside of a technical field like engineers, i fail tp see why officers need college in any event, or at least degrees like BA, BFA, or any other degree that isn't heavy in military history and military arts.

If it were up to me, and it obviously isn't, all officers would start as enlisted then go to an academy that is strictly about how to win wars and lead men.

It's a complete and utter fallacy that all good officers are prior enlisted.

Good leaders-be they officers or enlisted-are where you find them.

I've known a LOT of great officers. Quite a lot are prior enlisted, quite a lot were NROTC, or PLC (ie- not prior enlisted). Some were service academy. You may have a slightly higher chance of prior-Es being good, but sometimes they bring a lot of unwanted baggage or other issues along with them.

ETA- and I've known shitty ones from all sources too. To include a guy who was a prior SSgt and literally brought it up every day. To another prior GySgt who got caught banging his Marine's wives and kicked out at the 18 year mark. An academy grad who was so bad he got held at TBS to work at the MACE indefinitely and another academy grad who got so lost the entire company had to get on line to search.

Only prior-enlisted officers know how to “skate.”

Posted: 2/17/2020 4:08:54 PM EDT

[#18]

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Wrong. SNCO in the Corps is Staff NCO not Senior. And a Staff Sgt is a Staff Sgt and a Gunny is a Gunny. When a Gunny is selected for E8 they have a decision to make. Stay in their field and become a Master Sgt or go First Sgt and assume an administrative role.

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Well, that's pretty dumb. I am an E-7 in the Army and I have literally never spent 30 minutes in a "staff" position.

Posted: 2/17/2020 4:14:29 PM EDT

[#19]

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Only prior-enlisted officers know how to “skate.”

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Outside of a technical field like engineers, i fail tp see why officers need college in any event, or at least degrees like BA, BFA, or any other degree that isn't heavy in military history and military arts.

If it were up to me, and it obviously isn't, all officers would start as enlisted then go to an academy that is strictly about how to win wars and lead men.

It's a complete and utter fallacy that all good officers are prior enlisted.

Good leaders-be they officers or enlisted-are where you find them.

I've known a LOT of great officers. Quite a lot are prior enlisted, quite a lot were NROTC, or PLC (ie- not prior enlisted). Some were service academy. You may have a slightly higher chance of prior-Es being good, but sometimes they bring a lot of unwanted baggage or other issues along with them.

ETA- and I've known shitty ones from all sources too. To include a guy who was a prior SSgt and literally brought it up every day. To another prior GySgt who got caught banging his Marine's wives and kicked out at the 18 year mark. An academy grad who was so bad he got held at TBS to work at the MACE indefinitely and another academy grad who got so lost the entire company had to get on line to search.

Only prior-enlisted officers know how to “skate.”

Sorry sir, I can't take the time for a well thought out reply to this right now. I have to go over to base legal to deal with a few things for one of the guys (nothing serious) and by then it'll be 1100 and time for chow, and by the time chow is over it's practcially COB and with traffic the way it is....

I'll see you tomorrow after I PT on my own so like...0900 or so.

Posted: 2/17/2020 4:24:11 PM EDT

[#20]

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Well, that's pretty dumb. I am an E-7 in the Army and I have literally never spent 30 minutes in a "staff" position.

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Wrong. SNCO in the Corps is Staff NCO not Senior. And a Staff Sgt is a Staff Sgt and a Gunny is a Gunny. When a Gunny is selected for E8 they have a decision to make. Stay in their field and become a Master Sgt or go First Sgt and assume an administrative role.

Well, that's pretty dumb. I am an E-7 in the Army and I have literally never spent 30 minutes in a "staff" position.

I had an explanation but never mind. "Hooah" or whatever that thing y'all say when y'all are trying to be gungie. I probably have to explain gungie.

Posted: 2/17/2020 4:31:57 PM EDT

[#21]

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I had an explanation but never mind. "Hooah" or whatever that thing y'all say when y'all are trying to be gungie. I probably have to explain gungie.

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Ive never said that, and have no idea what gungie is.

Posted: 2/17/2020 4:33:47 PM EDT

[#22]

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Well, that's pretty dumb. I am an E-7 in the Army and I have literally never spent 30 minutes in a "staff" position.

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Quoted:

Wrong. SNCO in the Corps is Staff NCO not Senior. And a Staff Sgt is a Staff Sgt and a Gunny is a Gunny. When a Gunny is selected for E8 they have a decision to make. Stay in their field and become a Master Sgt or go First Sgt and assume an administrative role.

Well, that's pretty dumb. I am an E-7 in the Army and I have literally never spent 30 minutes in a "staff" position.

How many E-8s are there still doing work in the field in your MOS?

Posted: 2/17/2020 4:35:08 PM EDT

[#23]

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Ive never said that, and have no idea what gungie is.

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I had an explanation but never mind. "Hooah" or whatever that thing y'all say when y'all are trying to be gungie. I probably have to explain gungie.

Ive never said that, and have no idea what gungie is.

That's because its a Marine thing and you would never understand.

Posted: 2/17/2020 4:40:41 PM EDT

[#24]

American Military University and University of Phoenix about to be rolling in that Tuition Assistance dough.

Posted: 2/17/2020 4:41:12 PM EDT

[#25]

How hard is it to eat crayons?

Posted: 2/17/2020 4:41:20 PM EDT

[#26]

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Well, that's pretty dumb. I am an E-7 in the Army and I have literally never spent 30 minutes in a "staff" position.

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Quoted:

Wrong. SNCO in the Corps is Staff NCO not Senior. And a Staff Sgt is a Staff Sgt and a Gunny is a Gunny. When a Gunny is selected for E8 they have a decision to make. Stay in their field and become a Master Sgt or go First Sgt and assume an administrative role.

Well, that's pretty dumb. I am an E-7 in the Army and I have literally never spent 30 minutes in a "staff" position.

It's not about being in a staff position.

Posted: 2/17/2020 4:43:31 PM EDT

[#27]

what a dumb fuck.

yeah lets take night classes while being a combat arms nco.

Posted: 2/17/2020 4:43:33 PM EDT

[#28]

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How many E-8s are there still doing work in the field in your MOS?

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Outside of SMU's, not many..which is one reason why i'm super content to stay at the pinnacle of the operational side.

Posted: 2/17/2020 4:44:28 PM EDT

[#29]

JFC these days I find most smart folks usually have a high school diploma, trade school, or at most an associates degree. The ones I know with college degrees couldn’t think themselves out of a wet paper bag. The higher the education the dumber they are in the real world.

Posted: 2/17/2020 4:46:59 PM EDT

[#30]

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Outside of SMU's, not many..which is one reason why i'm super content to stay at the pinnacle of the operational side.

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How many E-8s are there still doing work in the field in your MOS?

Outside of SMU's, not many..which is one reason why i'm super content to stay at the pinnacle of the operational side.

That’s good. Getting promoted isn’t what everyone wants.

Posted: 2/17/2020 4:54:52 PM EDT

[#31]

F%#k that sh#t!

Posted: 2/17/2020 5:07:29 PM EDT

[#32]

As an enlisted, the only degrees I need are my bearings.

Suck it Lost LT

This have something to do with an outrageous high cutting score for years for 0311 NCOs, and when the bubble finally popped to the lowest cutting scores the history of 0311s and now a massive influx of Corporals?

Posted: 2/17/2020 5:15:34 PM EDT

[#33]

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JFC these days I find most smart folks usually have a high school diploma, trade school, or at most an associates degree. The ones I know with college degrees couldn’t think themselves out of a wet paper bag. The higher the education the dumber they are in the real world.

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It’s all about the pool in which you swim.

Posted: 2/17/2020 6:15:34 PM EDT

[#34]

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He doesn't do it, he is ineligible for promotion. It's as simple as that. And you know what? That's ok!

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It sure is. Badgering everyone to try to promote is fucking idiotic. Even more so are the individuals that get offended when Joe doesn't want to promote to their level. Leave them alone. It's not like they can all become SNCOs anyway, so let the JNCOs be happy where they are.

Posted: 2/17/2020 6:18:06 PM EDT

[#35]

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It sure is. Badgering everyone to try to promote is fucking idiotic. Even more so are the individuals that get offended when Joe doesn't want to promote to their level. Leave them alone. It's not like they can all become SNCOs anyway, so let the JNCOs be happy where they are.

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He doesn't do it, he is ineligible for promotion. It's as simple as that. And you know what? That's ok!

It sure is. Badgering everyone to try to promote is fucking idiotic. Even more so are the individuals that get offended when Joe doesn't want to promote to their level. Leave them alone. It's not like they can all become SNCOs anyway, so let the JNCOs be happy where they are.

You mean forcing guys to promote beyond their ability then punishing them when they don't do well isn't an efficient way of doing business?

I'm not sure I follow.

Posted: 2/17/2020 6:20:29 PM EDT

[#36]

Navy thought the same thing a decade ago....it doesn't work if you make it a requirement.

Posted: 2/17/2020 7:12:21 PM EDT

[#37]

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You mean forcing guys to promote beyond their ability then punishing them when they don't do well isn't an efficient way of doing business?

I'm not sure I follow.

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I was thinking more of forcing them all to jump through hundreds of extra hoops to try for a promotion that they realistically have little chance of obtaining, and may not even want.

A nice byproduct of that is hammering a few more idiots through the cracks to a position beyond their abilities, then inflicting them on the troops.

Posted: 2/17/2020 7:13:12 PM EDT

[#38]

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Navy thought the same thing a decade ago....it doesn't work if you make it a requirement.

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Two words: Warfare quals

Posted: 2/17/2020 7:16:48 PM EDT

[#39]

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I was thinking more of forcing them all to jump through hundreds of extra hoops to try for a promotion that they realistically have little chance of obtaining, and may not even want.

A nice byproduct of that is hammering a few more idiots through the cracks to a position beyond their abilities, then inflicting them on the troops.

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Quoted:

You mean forcing guys to promote beyond their ability then punishing them when they don't do well isn't an efficient way of doing business?

I'm not sure I follow.

I was thinking more of forcing them all to jump through hundreds of extra hoops to try for a promotion that they realistically have little chance of obtaining, and may not even want.

A nice byproduct of that is hammering a few more idiots through the cracks to a position beyond their abilities, then inflicting them on the troops.

[SgtMaj] interdasting [/SgtMaj]

Posted: 2/17/2020 7:17:07 PM EDT

[#40]

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Only prior-enlisted officers know how to “skate.”

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Outside of a technical field like engineers, i fail tp see why officers need college in any event, or at least degrees like BA, BFA, or any other degree that isn't heavy in military history and military arts.

If it were up to me, and it obviously isn't, all officers would start as enlisted then go to an academy that is strictly about how to win wars and lead men.

It's a complete and utter fallacy that all good officers are prior enlisted.

Good leaders-be they officers or enlisted-are where you find them.

I've known a LOT of great officers. Quite a lot are prior enlisted, quite a lot were NROTC, or PLC (ie- not prior enlisted). Some were service academy. You may have a slightly higher chance of prior-Es being good, but sometimes they bring a lot of unwanted baggage or other issues along with them.

ETA- and I've known shitty ones from all sources too. To include a guy who was a prior SSgt and literally brought it up every day. To another prior GySgt who got caught banging his Marine's wives and kicked out at the 18 year mark. An academy grad who was so bad he got held at TBS to work at the MACE indefinitely and another academy grad who got so lost the entire company had to get on line to search.

Only prior-enlisted officers know how to “skate.”

My point in making officers come exclusively from prior enlisted isn't because they will necessarily be better officers or that they can't be shitbags. It's so that the mindset is "officers have two jobs: train troops and lead them into battle" instead of "free college and a guaranteed job after graduation even with my Eng. Lit. degree? Sweet!"

Posted: 2/17/2020 7:31:31 PM EDT

[#41]

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My point in making officers come exclusively from prior enlisted isn't because they will necessarily be better officers or that they can't be shitbags. It's so that the mindset is "officers have two jobs: train troops and lead them into battle" instead of "free college and a guaranteed job after graduation even with my Eng. Lit. degree? Sweet!"

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Outside of a technical field like engineers, i fail tp see why officers need college in any event, or at least degrees like BA, BFA, or any other degree that isn't heavy in military history and military arts.

If it were up to me, and it obviously isn't, all officers would start as enlisted then go to an academy that is strictly about how to win wars and lead men.

It's a complete and utter fallacy that all good officers are prior enlisted.

Good leaders-be they officers or enlisted-are where you find them.

I've known a LOT of great officers. Quite a lot are prior enlisted, quite a lot were NROTC, or PLC (ie- not prior enlisted). Some were service academy. You may have a slightly higher chance of prior-Es being good, but sometimes they bring a lot of unwanted baggage or other issues along with them.

ETA- and I've known shitty ones from all sources too. To include a guy who was a prior SSgt and literally brought it up every day. To another prior GySgt who got caught banging his Marine's wives and kicked out at the 18 year mark. An academy grad who was so bad he got held at TBS to work at the MACE indefinitely and another academy grad who got so lost the entire company had to get on line to search.

Only prior-enlisted officers know how to “skate.”

My point in making officers come exclusively from prior enlisted isn't because they will necessarily be better officers or that they can't be shitbags. It's so that the mindset is "officers have two jobs: train troops and lead them into battle" instead of "free college and a guaranteed job after graduation even with my Eng. Lit. degree? Sweet!"

You can have the same mindset with prior Es too. I've known phenomenal officers that were straight up college boys. It would be a mistake to lose out on that source.

Posted: 2/17/2020 8:01:48 PM EDT

[#42]

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You can have the same mindset with prior Es too. I've known phenomenal officers that were straight up college boys. It would be a mistake to lose out on that source.

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Likewise. If anything though, I wouldn't mind a more robust light to darkside promotion path though. I havent looked into such programs in a hot minute but we used to only have 2 routes, bootstrap was one and the other one was AECP or something like that. It was extremely difficult to hit all the wickets on either (limited as well so fiercely competitive) and I fear that discourages many people who I feel would have made solid officers from applying

Posted: 2/17/2020 8:04:04 PM EDT

[#43]

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Likewise. If anything though, I wouldn't mind a more robust light to darkside promotion path though. I havent looked into such programs in a hot minute but we used to only have 2 routes, bootstrap was one and the other one was AECP or something like that. It was extremely difficult to hit all the wickets on either (limited as well so fiercely competitive) and I fear that discourages many people who I feel would have made solid officers from applying

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You can have the same mindset with prior Es too. I've known phenomenal officers that were straight up college boys. It would be a mistake to lose out on that source.

Likewise. If anything though, I wouldn't mind a more robust light to darkside promotion path though. I havent looked into such programs in a hot minute but we used to only have 2 routes, bootstrap was one and the other one was AECP or something like that. It was extremely difficult to hit all the wickets on either (limited as well so fiercely competitive) and I fear that discourages many people who I feel would have made solid officers from applying

Yeah I wouldn't disagree there. I did MECEP, which was fairly competitive- less so than going straight NROTC or PLC which seems odd.

Posted: 2/17/2020 8:07:02 PM EDT

[#44]

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It's amazing how we were able to win WWII without our SNCOs earning a four year degree.

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15 years ago, most of E7’s in my command (Navy) already had a degree or we’re working towards one.

E5-E6 is cutting it a bit short.

Do they still offer the tuition assistance program, GI Bill, and student loan repayment program?

I think part of the problem with his proposal is "who has time for college if you're in combat arms? The infantry?

I was always impressed with the rare infantryman that was driven enough to complete a bachelors degree while on active duty and earn a commission.

A truly exceptional Marine that could pull that off, and that was before the constant deployments following 9/11.

If you don’t provide the time, as in real time between assignments or during existing schooling, the people who will excel are those willing to forego their immediate responsibilities and neglect their subordinates in order to advance their careers.

Then again, this is pretty much already how the system works, so why not double down, heh?

It's amazing how we were able to win WWII without our SNCOs earning a four year degree.

I bet the results of a 1930s-1940s high school education would stack up pretty well against a generic B.A. of today, which is what most people will get to satisfy this requirement.

Posted: 2/17/2020 8:17:01 PM EDT

[#45]

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Up until 2018 it was a true statement if you wanted to progress in the SNCO corps. Now it's just any associates degree. But then again if you have any at least associates degree then just transfer credits to CCAF and get their piece of paper too. May as well make your resume more competitive for no real effort.

If you can't manage to get at least an associates degree in over a decade with the Air Force handing you 75% of the credits then I question a person's desire to improve themselves in any demonstrable way.

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As another poster said the Air Force is "ahead" of the game on this. No one gave a shit about Community College of the Air Force until the "Chief Cheerleader Political Hack of the Air Force" and his Merry Band of Bootlickers started banging the drum on this shit a few years ago. I am all for a troop bettering themselves, but the focus on a degree shouldn't be until they know their primary job, you know, what the military pays them for.

I've seen so many of these supertroops on their laptops banging away at an assignment from their degree mill, I mean higher learning institution, but when you ask them about basic job knowledge, they havent the foggiest idea. But hey they'll have a degree!

I went round and round with a supervisor about getting my CCAF degree. I joined in my mid-twenties and already had an associates so I thought I was good. Not good enough according to my supervisor. I finally told this moron I wasn't getting a degree from some place that you had to send boxtops in to get a degree. That really set that peckerhead off. Now I guess you can show whatever equivalent credits you have to get your CCAF. Box checked.

It's a hard enough game to stay in the Marines, so now they're going to make it harder? Think about this, how many retired Marines do you ever run into? I can say less than ten.

Up until 2018 it was a true statement if you wanted to progress in the SNCO corps. Now it's just any associates degree. But then again if you have any at least associates degree then just transfer credits to CCAF and get their piece of paper too. May as well make your resume more competitive for no real effort.

If you can't manage to get at least an associates degree in over a decade with the Air Force handing you 75% of the credits then I question a person's desire to improve themselves in any demonstrable way.

If it's a diploma mill that hands out most credits based on service is getting that degree really self-improvement? Or is it just another check-the-block "accomplishment" that takes time away from meaningful self-improvement?

Posted: 2/17/2020 8:21:04 PM EDT

[#46]

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Hard for me to believe he was referring specifically to E-5 and E-6, but as an E-7 and above, at least in the AF, it's supposed to become less about you and more about you taking care of the people entrusted to you. Boy howdy, nothing better than a MSgt flight chief who can't write, do public speaking, has no reasoning skills and spends most of his off duty time drinking. That translates directly into how he treats and leads people, which is a critical component of retention.

The AF makes it cut-and-dried. No CCAF associates directly related to your career field, and zero chance of promotion to E-8 and E-9. Different culture, I understand, but it's hard to believe there's no benefit to a better educated SNCO cadre in the Marine Corp...and I can fully believe it would take a forcing function to achieve it.

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I've met lots of people who fit the description in red and have degrees from a diploma mill. I will never forget the conversation I had with a fellow Army engineer officer who was a week away from graduating with an M.S. in geological engineering from a program specifically set up for Army officers. He could not grasp the relationship between weight and mass.

Posted: 2/17/2020 8:26:29 PM EDT

[#47]

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If it's a diploma mill that hands out most credits based on service is getting that degree really self-improvement? Or is it just another check-the-block "accomplishment" that takes time away from meaningful self-improvement?

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As another poster said the Air Force is "ahead" of the game on this. No one gave a shit about Community College of the Air Force until the "Chief Cheerleader Political Hack of the Air Force" and his Merry Band of Bootlickers started banging the drum on this shit a few years ago. I am all for a troop bettering themselves, but the focus on a degree shouldn't be until they know their primary job, you know, what the military pays them for.

I've seen so many of these supertroops on their laptops banging away at an assignment from their degree mill, I mean higher learning institution, but when you ask them about basic job knowledge, they havent the foggiest idea. But hey they'll have a degree!

I went round and round with a supervisor about getting my CCAF degree. I joined in my mid-twenties and already had an associates so I thought I was good. Not good enough according to my supervisor. I finally told this moron I wasn't getting a degree from some place that you had to send boxtops in to get a degree. That really set that peckerhead off. Now I guess you can show whatever equivalent credits you have to get your CCAF. Box checked.

It's a hard enough game to stay in the Marines, so now they're going to make it harder? Think about this, how many retired Marines do you ever run into? I can say less than ten.

Up until 2018 it was a true statement if you wanted to progress in the SNCO corps. Now it's just any associates degree. But then again if you have any at least associates degree then just transfer credits to CCAF and get their piece of paper too. May as well make your resume more competitive for no real effort.

If you can't manage to get at least an associates degree in over a decade with the Air Force handing you 75% of the credits then I question a person's desire to improve themselves in any demonstrable way.

If it's a diploma mill that hands out most credits based on service is getting that degree really self-improvement? Or is it just another check-the-block "accomplishment" that takes time away from meaningful self-improvement?

It makes yourself a little more competitive on your resume than the guy that is too cool to do it. And it's, in the Air Force at least, a minimum requirement to promote beyond E7. Troops can do it or they can choose not to, it's their career.

Posted: 2/17/2020 8:28:23 PM EDT

[#48]

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In this thread we see who doesn't know the difference between a NCO and a SNCO in the Marines.

"... a Marine Corps that requires staff noncommissioned officers to receive college degrees..."

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I know the difference and it's still a stupid fucking idea. Off the top of my head, I can't think of a single college degree that would actually make an Infantry SNCO better at his job of leading junior Marines, but I'm sure the diploma mills will come up with something that sounds impressive-ish. Perhaps for guys in FSSGs a BA in accounting might make some sense. A EE degree might be a good thing for the electronics repair and comms guys, but honestly, a degree != useful knowledge. For instance, a Navy EM1 (SSGT equivalent) has the knowledge and skill of a Master Electrician. No degree needed to be either and EM1 or a Master Electrician in civilian life.

Posted: 2/17/2020 8:45:57 PM EDT

[#49]

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Well, that's pretty dumb. I am an E-7 in the Army and I have literally never spent 30 minutes in a "staff" position.

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Wrong. SNCO in the Corps is Staff NCO not Senior. And a Staff Sgt is a Staff Sgt and a Gunny is a Gunny. When a Gunny is selected for E8 they have a decision to make. Stay in their field and become a Master Sgt or go First Sgt and assume an administrative role.

Well, that's pretty dumb. I am an E-7 in the Army and I have literally never spent 30 minutes in a "staff" position.

It actually works out very well, and has nothing to do with being on a staff.

There's a specific institutional distinction between Sgt (NCO) and SSgt (SNCO) on up in the USMC, and it's officially recognized for a reason: It's not just a mere pay raise to pin on that rocker, and much more is expected out of you than the junior NCOs all across the service. A Marine's relationship with officers and senior SNCOs as a newly promoted SNCO completely changes for the better once he makes that milestone in his career.

From what I've seen in the Army, a SSG is recognized as a better paid SGT, but not much more. In fact, Army Regulation (AR 670-1?) makes no distinction in addressing an E-5 to E-8 unless that E-8 is a 1SG. In other words, everyone is a "Sergeant" until you're in a 1SG billet (which isn't permanent). Weird to me, anyway.

Posted: 2/17/2020 8:47:08 PM EDT

[#50]

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I bet the results of a 1930s-1940s high school education would stack up pretty well against a generic B.A. of today, which is what most people will get to satisfy this requirement.

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15 years ago, most of E7’s in my command (Navy) already had a degree or we’re working towards one.

E5-E6 is cutting it a bit short.

Do they still offer the tuition assistance program, GI Bill, and student loan repayment program?

I think part of the problem with his proposal is "who has time for college if you're in combat arms? The infantry?

I was always impressed with the rare infantryman that was driven enough to complete a bachelors degree while on active duty and earn a commission.

A truly exceptional Marine that could pull that off, and that was before the constant deployments following 9/11.

If you don’t provide the time, as in real time between assignments or during existing schooling, the people who will excel are those willing to forego their immediate responsibilities and neglect their subordinates in order to advance their careers.

Then again, this is pretty much already how the system works, so why not double down, heh?

It's amazing how we were able to win WWII without our SNCOs earning a four year degree.

I bet the results of a 1930s-1940s high school education would stack up pretty well against a generic B.A. of today, which is what most people will get to satisfy this requirement.

I bet you're right.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Top Marine Corps enlisted 'absolutely' can see requiring degrees for Marine NCOs (Page 3 of 6)

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