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Posted: 8/9/2017 1:11:42 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
How about some bullet points so I don't need to watch hipster gun dude's yammer on youtube for five minutes?  Failed To Load Title You have to use AR500 level III+ to defeat M193 https://youtu.be/FfA3Qv9JjBA |
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Posted: 8/9/2017 1:14:59 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Seeing is believing:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMYkEMhPsO8
You have to use AR500 level III+ to defeat M193 https://youtu.be/FfA3Qv9JjBA This is why the push is for 7.62. to defeat Level IV armor. |
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Posted: 8/9/2017 1:20:57 PM EDT
[#3]
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Ah jeez you mangina's, I was 150lbs, at 5 foot 8, carrying an M-60 and 200 rounds, plus spare barrel etc. Man the fuck up. However, I do agree with the need for more live fire training, and not just laying your ass on the grass, but shoot houses, jungle trails, hogans alley's, etc. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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20/30 round mags with a combat load of 210 rounds in 7.62. What's not to love!  However, I do agree with the need for more live fire training, and not just laying your ass on the grass, but shoot houses, jungle trails, hogans alley's, etc. Ever enter and clear a building, enter and clear a room with an M60? Ever dismount from a vehicle under fire with an M60? What body armor were you issued at the time? (Former M60, M240, SAW gunner, AB, AG, and Weapons Squad Leader checking in.) 150lb soldiers can't carry 210rds of 7.62 NATO and be combat effective. They can't even carry that load on their fighting load without augmenting with an assault pack, which you have to unshoulder and reach into to get fresh mags. Ever try loading up even 5-6 20rd SR25 or M14 mags on IBA/IOTV/Plate Carrier? |
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Posted: 8/9/2017 1:22:52 PM EDT
[#4]
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Only 200rds linked? How many magazines did you carry those 200rds in? Ever weight any of the 7.62 NATO magazines currently in use? Ever enter and clear a building, enter and clear a room with an M60? Ever dismount from a vehicle under fire with an M60? What body armor were you issued at the time? (Former M60, M240, SAW gunner, AB, AG, and Weapons Squad Leader checking in.) 150lb soldiers can't carry 210rds of 7.62 NATO and be combat effective. They can't even carry that load on their fighting load without augmenting with an assault pack, which you have to unshoulder and reach into to get fresh mags. Ever try loading up even 5-6 20rd SR25 or M14 mags on IBA/IOTV/Plate Carrier? |
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Posted: 8/9/2017 1:23:00 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Personally, no. But I do remember from the book Black Hawk Down, that troops were constantly bitching about the lack of stopping power with 5.56. The enemy was high on Kat and would easily take three or four hits to the chest and keep going. What I don't understand why this need to use either a 223 or 308. There is a lot of room between those two calibers (and power range). Why not pick something in the middle. A round with more power that 223, but lighter weight than 308. The midpoint between the two would be .264 caliber. Or even 0.227. Bullet weight for military 308 = 147 grn, .223 = 69 grn, try a 110 grn bullet, or 125 grn. A 308 case holds about 55.6 grains of water. A 223 case holds about 30 grains. Design a case that holds 42.8 grains, is tapered to feed and extract easily. A 6.5x47 lapua holds 47 grains. Here is the cartridge that you seek. 6.5x47 Lapua Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Idiots in the head shed doing "leadership" things again. 1. Have you ever had a problem with someone AFTER you shot them with 5.56? 2. Do you often use small arms to engage targets beyond 500Meters? 3. Do feel carrying 3x the weight for the same amount of ammo is a reasonable trade off for better range? 4. Are you a general whose "command" is a dozen or so "troops" who only produce coffee and powerpoints? But I do remember from the book Black Hawk Down, that troops were constantly bitching about the lack of stopping power with 5.56. The enemy was high on Kat and would easily take three or four hits to the chest and keep going. What I don't understand why this need to use either a 223 or 308. There is a lot of room between those two calibers (and power range). Why not pick something in the middle. A round with more power that 223, but lighter weight than 308. The midpoint between the two would be .264 caliber. Or even 0.227. Bullet weight for military 308 = 147 grn, .223 = 69 grn, try a 110 grn bullet, or 125 grn. A 308 case holds about 55.6 grains of water. A 223 case holds about 30 grains. Design a case that holds 42.8 grains, is tapered to feed and extract easily. A 6.5x47 lapua holds 47 grains. Here is the cartridge that you seek. 6.5x47 Lapua Aerial surveillance footage showed dust kicking up all around the Somalis he was shooting at, whereas shooters who made their hits showed impact and dust effects on their chests, followed by them stopping what they were doing or dying. |
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Posted: 8/9/2017 1:25:44 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Seeing is believing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMYkEMhPsO8
You have to use AR500 level III+ to defeat M193 https://youtu.be/FfA3Qv9JjBA Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
How about some bullet points so I don't need to watch hipster gun dude's yammer on youtube for five minutes? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMYkEMhPsO8
You have to use AR500 level III+ to defeat M193 https://youtu.be/FfA3Qv9JjBA Beside, you know AR500 is steel right? Civilians buy it because plasma cutting is cheap no and the neckbeards want to "run" plate carriers for the zombie apocalyse and not spend a fortune on the proper composite plates of the sort that militaries buy. But the adults aren't discussing penetrating AR500 plates because nobody but neckbeards wear them, so nobody cares what M193 does at 10 feet against them. Certainly nobody gives a fuck what a 20" barrel does to them because nobody wants to carry a 20" barrel anymore unless its on a bullpup. In MILITARY terms, describe why M193 is better than anything else, why is it better than M855A1? |
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Posted: 8/9/2017 1:26:43 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wrong. One soldier complained about his fire being ineffective with M855. Aerial surveillance footage showed dust kicking up all around the Somalis he was shooting at, whereas shooters who made their hits showed impact and dust effects on their chests, followed by them stopping what they were doing or dying. |
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Posted: 8/9/2017 1:32:28 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What video footage? When was this made open source? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Wrong. One soldier complained about his fire being ineffective with M855. Aerial surveillance footage showed dust kicking up all around the Somalis he was shooting at, whereas shooters who made their hits showed impact and dust effects on their chests, followed by them stopping what they were doing or dying. I do know for a fact that most of the events were monitored heavily with several different aerial surveillance platforms. Take a civilian author interviewing the few people he could for the book, and do the math. Is he going to be talking with guys in the unit, or first-term guys in Battalion the most? What makes a more catching story? Elite career shooters with over a decade of SOF experience average make hits consistently and the enemy goes down or.... ....Mattel death rifle doesn't kill enemy because it's too weak and anemic. Another older guy who has a career covering the Grenada invasion through GWOT, with real-world deployments with actual witnessing and creating effects on target with M193, M855, SOST, Mk.262, 70gr TSX, and M855A1 said they never had a problem stacking enemy like corkwood with any of the different loads, and it wasn't until Bowden's book that the BS gained traction and spread throughout the gun community and military like wildfire. |
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Posted: 8/9/2017 1:37:25 PM EDT
[#9]
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One of the guys who spent his career in Ranger Regiment and other elements within SOF mentioned it, but there is no open video footage I'm aware of. I do know for a fact that most of the events were monitored heavily with several different aerial surveillance platforms. Take a civilian author interviewing the few people he could for the book, and do the math. Is he going to be talking with guys in the unit, or first-term guys in Battalion the most? What makes a more catching story? Elite career shooters with over a decade of SOF experience average make hits consistently and the enemy goes down or.... ....Mattel death rifle doesn't kill enemy because it's too weak and anemic. Another older guy who has a career covering the Grenada invasion through GWOT, with real-world deployments with actual witnessing and creating effects on target with M193, M855, SOST, Mk.262, 70gr TSX, and M855A1 said they never had a problem stacking enemy like corkwood with any of the different loads, and it wasn't until Bowden's book that the BS gained traction and spread throughout the gun community and military like wildfire. Also why does it gain traction? Wouldn't stacking bodies make awesome stories? |
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Posted: 8/9/2017 1:47:35 PM EDT
[#10]
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Also why does it gain traction? Wouldn't stacking bodies make awesome stories? 2. This is America, where the twin mentalities of "bigger is better" and "if some is good then more is better" reign supreme. If 5.56 is good, then 5.57 is better.... so 7.62 simply must be better than 5.56. 
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Posted: 8/9/2017 1:59:23 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
One of the guys who spent his career in Ranger Regiment and other elements within SOF mentioned it, but there is no open video footage I'm aware of. I do know for a fact that most of the events were monitored heavily with several different aerial surveillance platforms. Take a civilian author interviewing the few people he could for the book, and do the math. Is he going to be talking with guys in the unit, or first-term guys in Battalion the most? What makes a more catching story? Elite career shooters with over a decade of SOF experience average make hits consistently and the enemy goes down or.... ....Mattel death rifle doesn't kill enemy because it's too weak and anemic. Another older guy who has a career covering the Grenada invasion through GWOT, with real-world deployments with actual witnessing and creating effects on target with M193, M855, SOST, Mk.262, 70gr TSX, and M855A1 said they never had a problem stacking enemy like corkwood with any of the different loads, and it wasn't until Bowden's book that the BS gained traction and spread throughout the gun community and military like wildfire. M855 isn't nearly as bad as social media made it out to be, but I think at this point we can agree that M855 does have some issues shot out of a shorter barrel (and Howe was using a 14.5" CAR-15), with issues of fleet yaw and velocity thresholds for reliable fragmentation. But Howe isn't anti-5.56, that's all he uses nowadays while training, which should be a testament that he likes the platform. |
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Posted: 8/9/2017 2:01:15 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Its been a while since I've read the book but I know the primary one mentioning M855 performance issues was MSG Paul Howe (then still an SFC), a CAG assaulter. Then there was the Randall Shughart's M14, but he was a CAG sniper not an assaulter. The only first-term Ranger I can recall that even mentioned terminal ballistics issues was attributed I think to SPC Nelson, an M60 gunner, who was center punching Somali with a belt fed and they weren't reacting. While Bowden doesn't mention it other sources of the battle I've read state some Ranger M60s (CAG was using FN MAGs) were shooting SLAP to deal with the technical vehicle threat and to penetrate other cover, and that can probably explain the soft tissue ice picking. Also, there is the issue of Khat fueled militants might not react as they should when they're dead on their feet, but Somali warlord fighters were notorious addicts, the battle happened at the exact time the effects from the morning chew sessions would kick in. M855 isn't nearly as bad as social media made it out to be, but I think at this point we can agree that M855 does have some issues shot out of a shorter barrel (and Howe was using a 14.5" CAR-15), with issues of fleet yaw and velocity thresholds for reliable fragmentation. But Howe isn't anti-5.56, that's all he uses nowadays while training, which should be a testament that he likes the platform. On top of that he has a $3000 Wilson AR to sell. |
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Posted: 8/9/2017 2:01:22 PM EDT
[#13]
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Also why does it gain traction? Wouldn't stacking bodies make awesome stories? |
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Posted: 8/9/2017 2:02:14 PM EDT
[#14]
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Or it's just the cheapest, most common, most widely used platform in the US. |
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Posted: 8/9/2017 2:03:41 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Got a link to the Grenada stuff? Also why does it gain traction? Wouldn't stacking bodies make awesome stories? |
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Posted: 8/9/2017 2:04:13 PM EDT
[#16]
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Because its effective. Just pointing out instructors using one thing doesn't mean much. Paul Howe has a custom Wilson AR that costs $3000 that is no better than a $1000 BCM. LAV is a good example here, whoever sponsors him is the best at the time. |
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Posted: 8/9/2017 2:04:34 PM EDT
[#17]
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Lot's of stupid stuff in this thread, but this gets
Who has steel body armor? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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They had the perfect FMJ round and walked right by it......the M193. It can penetrate AR500 body armor where M855 leaves a dimple. Why can it do that?....speed. Any 16" .308 will not achieve this test.....(unless some secret squirrel AP round at close distances) Grendal 6.5 fanbios .....take your glorified 30-30 and go home. Army switching to 16" barrels means less muzzles will be dragged thru the dirt and sand rather than the 20". Maybe they can hit a target since they didn't fuck up the muzzle. DM's with a 20" AR with M193 and you will put down pajama boys so much your DM's finger will get tired.
Who has steel body armor? |
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Posted: 8/9/2017 2:15:17 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm not saying it's not. Just pointing out instructors using one thing doesn't mean much. Paul Howe has a custom Wilson AR that costs $3000 that is no better than a $1000 BCM. LAV is a good example here, whoever sponsors him is the best at the time. |
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Posted: 8/9/2017 2:26:17 PM EDT
[#19]
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I think it will get dropped and the M4 will continue. M995 will hot knife / butter Level IV armor so this isn't a 5.56 vs 7.62 thing anyway. |
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Posted: 8/9/2017 2:27:53 PM EDT
[#20]
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That is the likely winner IMO. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Just pick the SCAR 17 so I can get cheap mags |
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Posted: 8/9/2017 2:30:09 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Correct. M995 will hot knife / butter Level IV armor so this isn't a 5.56 vs 7.62 thing anyway. |
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Posted: 8/9/2017 2:34:37 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You spelled G28E wrong I want to buy whatever does. However I don't want anything to win really. I see no need for a .308 battle rifle and have been against it from day 1 when Milley got in front of Congress. However if it must happen I would like to see one I can buy win. I truly hope this does die and the M4 continues on. I made a comment in the Nork thread saying that I hope it kicks off and the M4A1 drops bodies and shows it's a bad ass carbine and stays around for good. |
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Posted: 8/9/2017 2:36:16 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Seeing is believing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMYkEMhPsO8
You have to use AR500 level III+ to defeat M193 https://youtu.be/FfA3Qv9JjBA Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
How about some bullet points so I don't need to watch hipster gun dude's yammer on youtube for five minutes? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMYkEMhPsO8
You have to use AR500 level III+ to defeat M193 https://youtu.be/FfA3Qv9JjBA Also the regular level III stuff will fail with M193 and a 16" or 50gr TSX or varmint rounds |
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Posted: 8/9/2017 2:37:35 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I asked you for a bullet point summary of one youtube video and your reply is another full length video. Jesus Christ, did you just learn about Youtube yesterday or something? Beside, you know AR500 is steel right? Civilians buy it because plasma cutting is cheap no and the neckbeards want to "run" plate carriers for the zombie apocalyse and not spend a fortune on the proper composite plates of the sort that militaries buy. But the adults aren't discussing penetrating AR500 plates because nobody but neckbeards wear them, so nobody cares what M193 does at 10 feet against them. Certainly nobody gives a fuck what a 20" barrel does to them because nobody wants to carry a 20" barrel anymore unless its on a bullpup. In MILITARY terms, describe why M193 is better than anything else, why is it better than M855A1? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
How about some bullet points so I don't need to watch hipster gun dude's yammer on youtube for five minutes? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMYkEMhPsO8
You have to use AR500 level III+ to defeat M193 https://youtu.be/FfA3Qv9JjBA Beside, you know AR500 is steel right? Civilians buy it because plasma cutting is cheap no and the neckbeards want to "run" plate carriers for the zombie apocalyse and not spend a fortune on the proper composite plates of the sort that militaries buy. But the adults aren't discussing penetrating AR500 plates because nobody but neckbeards wear them, so nobody cares what M193 does at 10 feet against them. Certainly nobody gives a fuck what a 20" barrel does to them because nobody wants to carry a 20" barrel anymore unless its on a bullpup. In MILITARY terms, describe why M193 is better than anything else, why is it better than M855A1? It's not better. |
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Posted: 8/9/2017 2:39:07 PM EDT
[#25]
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According to? Where are the tests? What distances? What armor? The thing is both M995 and M993 can defeat Level IV armor. Neither M855A1 nor M80A1 can defeat Level IV armor. If the whole XM1158 truly works, Milley himself said it can be adapted to 5.56 easily so why do we need a .308. Lastly the ACC wants the ICSR to be 16"-20" barrels where the guns are going to be scored where the faster the velocity at 300M the higher the score, and where the faster the velocity at 600M the better. Basically Milley wants everyone to have a 20" .308 battle rifle. It's a huge step back. |
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Posted: 8/9/2017 2:40:04 PM EDT
[#26]
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Oh Oh Oh Oh I know the answer to this!! I know the answer!!!! It's not better. I often find armors effectiveness to be vastly over stated. It coves such a small portion of our bodies, and only at a very few angles(basically straight on) that it shouldn't be a major concern in caliber selection IMO....at least until everyone is head to toe in ceramic Level IV armor, or wearing iron man suits. |
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Posted: 8/9/2017 2:40:11 PM EDT
[#27]
My main point is why go so large? If you are not happy with 223 (perceived or real), there is a LOT of room/different calibers between 223 and 308. A 308 equals lots of weight in weapons and ammo. It just seems like an ignorant move to go back to the main line battle rifle idea.
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Posted: 8/9/2017 2:42:41 PM EDT
[#28]
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My main point is why go so large? If you are not happy with 223 (perceived or real), there is a LOT of room/different calibers between 223 and 308. A 308 equals lots of weight in weapons and ammo. It just seems like an ignorant move to go back to the main line battle rifle idea. They basically want a full size, 20" battle rifle that can weigh up to 12lbs empty without optic!!! 6 out of 15 scoring categories greatly favor 20" barrels. 1 out of 15 scoring categories greatly favor 16" barrels. 8 out of 15 scoring categories favor both 16" and 20" guns evenly. |
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Posted: 8/9/2017 2:44:31 PM EDT
[#29]
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According to? Where are the tests? What distances? What armor? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Correct. M995 will hot knife / butter Level IV armor so this isn't a 5.56 vs 7.62 thing anyway. |
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Posted: 8/9/2017 2:46:13 PM EDT
[#30]
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The same .308 can do. The thing is both M995 and M993 can defeat Level IV armor. Neither M855A1 nor M80A1 can defeat Level IV armor. If the whole XM1158 truly works, Milley himself said it can be adapted to 5.56 easily so why do we need a .308. Lastly the ACC wants the ICSR to be 16"-20" barrels where the guns are going to be scored where the faster the velocity at 300M the higher the score, and where the faster the velocity at 600M the better. Basically Milley wants everyone to have a 20" .308 battle rifle. It's a huge step back. |
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Posted: 8/9/2017 2:46:57 PM EDT
[#31]
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I actually don't want a HK to win. I want to buy whatever does. However I don't want anything to win really. I see no need for a .308 battle rifle and have been against it from day 1 when Milley got in front of Congress. However if it must happen I would like to see one I can buy win. I truly hope this does die and the M4 continues on. I made a comment in the Nork thread saying that I hope it kicks off and the M4A1 drops bodies and shows it's a bad ass carbine and stays around for good. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You spelled G28E wrong I want to buy whatever does. However I don't want anything to win really. I see no need for a .308 battle rifle and have been against it from day 1 when Milley got in front of Congress. However if it must happen I would like to see one I can buy win. I truly hope this does die and the M4 continues on. I made a comment in the Nork thread saying that I hope it kicks off and the M4A1 drops bodies and shows it's a bad ass carbine and stays around for good. Also after talking to people who have seen combat M855A1 is fucking game over with 1 COM hit. Immediate dick-in-the-dirt. |
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Posted: 8/9/2017 2:47:20 PM EDT
[#32]
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It's official the ICSR is going forward. This is the first step in replacing the M4A1 and the 5.56 round in Infantry Units. More than likely this will mean the eventual full replacement of the 5.56 M4A1 due to acquisition chains and fleeting one rifle being easier than two. In this thread we learn OP doesn't read the article he posted. If so he'd realize the Army is looking for a 7.62 Designated Marksman rifle, not a general replacement for the M4. A recent directed requirement from Vice Chief of Staff Gen. Daniel Allyn prompted Army weapons officials to write a new requirement, and most likely they will conduct a competition that will result in the service equipping each combat arms squad with a new 7.62mm squad designated marksman rifle, Matt Walker, deputy for the Lethality Branch at the Maneuver Center for Excellence at Fort Benning, Georgia, told Military.com. |
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Posted: 8/9/2017 2:48:42 PM EDT
[#33]
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There's no way the Army would spend a metric shit ton of money just to conclude that the M4 5.56 platform is fine.  
They've been doing it repeatedly, for years. |
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Posted: 8/9/2017 2:48:49 PM EDT
[#34]
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It's better when you hit the 90% of the body that is exposed soft tissue though. I often find armors effectiveness to be vastly over stated. It coves such a small portion of our bodies, and only at a very few angles(basically straight on) that it shouldn't be a major concern in caliber selection IMO....at least until everyone is head to toe in ceramic Level IV armor, or wearing iron man suits. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Oh Oh Oh Oh I know the answer to this!! I know the answer!!!! It's not better. I often find armors effectiveness to be vastly over stated. It coves such a small portion of our bodies, and only at a very few angles(basically straight on) that it shouldn't be a major concern in caliber selection IMO....at least until everyone is head to toe in ceramic Level IV armor, or wearing iron man suits. |
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Posted: 8/9/2017 2:50:00 PM EDT
[#35]
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M855A1 is WAY better on soft tissue than M193 
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Posted: 8/9/2017 2:52:17 PM EDT
[#36]
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In this thread we learn OP doesn't read the article he posted. If so he'd realize the Army is looking for a 7.62 Designated Marksman rifle, not a general replacement for the M4. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
It's official the ICSR is going forward. This is the first step in replacing the M4A1 and the 5.56 round in Infantry Units. More than likely this will mean the eventual full replacement of the 5.56 M4A1 due to acquisition chains and fleeting one rifle being easier than two. In this thread we learn OP doesn't read the article he posted. If so he'd realize the Army is looking for a 7.62 Designated Marksman rifle, not a general replacement for the M4. A recent directed requirement from Vice Chief of Staff Gen. Daniel Allyn prompted Army weapons officials to write a new requirement, and most likely they will conduct a competition that will result in the service equipping each combat arms squad with a new 7.62mm squad designated marksman rifle, Matt Walker, deputy for the Lethality Branch at the Maneuver Center for Excellence at Fort Benning, Georgia, told Military.com. 
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Posted: 8/9/2017 2:52:57 PM EDT
[#37]
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In this thread we learn OP doesn't read the article he posted. If so he'd realize the Army is looking for a 7.62 Designated Marksman rifle, not a general replacement for the M4. 
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Posted: 8/9/2017 2:55:45 PM EDT
[#38]
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In this thread we learn OP doesn't read the article he posted. If so he'd realize the Army is looking for a 7.62 Designated Marksman rifle, not a general replacement for the M4. |
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Posted: 8/9/2017 2:57:00 PM EDT
[#39]
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In MILITARY terms, describe why M193 is better than anything else, why is it better than M855A1? 
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Posted: 8/9/2017 2:57:22 PM EDT
[#40]
Haven't we already proven that 7.62x51 is bad and should feel bad when it comes to small arms? Why not a flavor of 6.5?
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Posted: 8/9/2017 2:57:32 PM EDT
[#41]
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This happened a thousand times. The soldier needs a longer range weapon in mountainous and desert environment. So we adopt a 7.62 rifle. next week we'll be in the Congo and needing a 5.56 rifle. I don't know why we don't just have 2 rifles to choose from for these type things. If they're bound and determined to have one to fill both rifles, the answer is 6.5 Grendel or 6.8 SPC. They don't give you quite what 308 gives you, but they come reasonably close, with much less weight involved. |
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Posted: 8/9/2017 2:58:02 PM EDT
[#42]
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They've been doing it repeatedly, for years. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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There's no way the Army would spend a metric shit ton of money just to conclude that the M4 5.56 platform is fine.
They've been doing it repeatedly, for years. |
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Posted: 8/9/2017 2:58:05 PM EDT
[#43]
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Haven't we already proven that 7.62x51 is bad and should feel bad when it comes to small arms? Why not a flavor of 6.5? Because Milley is a retarded general trying to make a name for himself that's why. |
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Posted: 8/9/2017 2:58:12 PM EDT
[#44]
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Haven't we already proven that 7.62x51 is bad and should feel bad when it comes to small arms? |
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Posted: 8/9/2017 2:59:26 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Its been a while since I've read the book but I know the primary one mentioning M855 performance issues was MSG Paul Howe (then still an SFC), a CAG assaulter. Then there was the Randall Shughart's M14, but he was a CAG sniper not an assaulter. The only first-term Ranger I can recall that even mentioned terminal ballistics issues was attributed I think to SPC Nelson, an M60 gunner, who was center punching Somali with a belt fed and they weren't reacting. While Bowden doesn't mention it other sources of the battle I've read state some Ranger M60s (CAG was using FN MAGs) were shooting SLAP to deal with the technical vehicle threat and to penetrate other cover, and that can probably explain the soft tissue ice picking. Also, there is the issue of Khat fueled militants might not react as they should when they're dead on their feet, but Somali warlord fighters were notorious addicts, the battle happened at the exact time the effects from the morning chew sessions would kick in. M855 isn't nearly as bad as social media made it out to be, but I think at this point we can agree that M855 does have some issues shot out of a shorter barrel (and Howe was using a 14.5" CAR-15), with issues of fleet yaw and velocity thresholds for reliable fragmentation. But Howe isn't anti-5.56, that's all he uses nowadays while training, which should be a testament that he likes the platform. According to open source reports the Blackhawk was not over run until all the rifle ammo had been expended. Paul Howe is obviously a great shot but he was using irons in Mogadishu. |
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Posted: 8/9/2017 2:59:29 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Probably logistical issues of maintaining two service rifles instead of one. If they're bound and determined to have one to fill both rifles, the answer is 6.5 Grendel or 6.8 SPC. They don't give you quite what 308 gives you, but they come reasonably close, with much less weight involved. That's why 7.62 is the answer to Milley. |
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Posted: 8/9/2017 2:59:45 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Its an AR15 chambered in 5.56, that's the point. He's not using an AR10, he's not using an M14, a SCAR, an HK417 or whatever else. He's not using 300 blk, 6.5 Grendel, or 6.8 SPC. So if the man does have a problem with M855 he doesnt have an issue with the cartridge as a whole or the AR15 as a weapon. |
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Posted: 8/9/2017 2:59:56 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Its been a while since I've read the book but I know the primary one mentioning M855 performance issues was MSG Paul Howe (then still an SFC), a CAG assaulter. Then there was the Randall Shughart's M14, but he was a CAG sniper not an assaulter. The only first-term Ranger I can recall that even mentioned terminal ballistics issues was attributed I think to SPC Nelson, an M60 gunner, who was center punching Somali with a belt fed and they weren't reacting. While Bowden doesn't mention it other sources of the battle I've read state some Ranger M60s (CAG was using FN MAGs) were shooting SLAP to deal with the technical vehicle threat and to penetrate other cover, and that can probably explain the soft tissue ice picking. Also, there is the issue of Khat fueled militants might not react as they should when they're dead on their feet, but Somali warlord fighters were notorious addicts, the battle happened at the exact time the effects from the morning chew sessions would kick in. M855 isn't nearly as bad as social media made it out to be, but I think at this point we can agree that M855 does have some issues shot out of a shorter barrel (and Howe was using a 14.5" CAR-15), with issues of fleet yaw and velocity thresholds for reliable fragmentation. But Howe isn't anti-5.56, that's all he uses nowadays while training, which should be a testament that he likes the platform. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
One of the guys who spent his career in Ranger Regiment and other elements within SOF mentioned it, but there is no open video footage I'm aware of. I do know for a fact that most of the events were monitored heavily with several different aerial surveillance platforms. Take a civilian author interviewing the few people he could for the book, and do the math. Is he going to be talking with guys in the unit, or first-term guys in Battalion the most? What makes a more catching story? Elite career shooters with over a decade of SOF experience average make hits consistently and the enemy goes down or.... ....Mattel death rifle doesn't kill enemy because it's too weak and anemic. Another older guy who has a career covering the Grenada invasion through GWOT, with real-world deployments with actual witnessing and creating effects on target with M193, M855, SOST, Mk.262, 70gr TSX, and M855A1 said they never had a problem stacking enemy like corkwood with any of the different loads, and it wasn't until Bowden's book that the BS gained traction and spread throughout the gun community and military like wildfire. M855 isn't nearly as bad as social media made it out to be, but I think at this point we can agree that M855 does have some issues shot out of a shorter barrel (and Howe was using a 14.5" CAR-15), with issues of fleet yaw and velocity thresholds for reliable fragmentation. But Howe isn't anti-5.56, that's all he uses nowadays while training, which should be a testament that he likes the platform. Case in point, my ex-business partner was in Somalia with an NGO and was ambushed by the Kenyan border. His Somali driver took a 12.7mm to the torso but still drove out of the ambush while returning fire out the window with a pistol. The driver died but stayed in the fight for a critical minute. There is no magic bullet (at least in small arms). No small arms caliber guarantees that the target will be 'dead right there'. |
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Posted: 8/9/2017 3:01:30 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Randy Shugart's use of an M-14 seems to be a case against 7.62 and for 5.56. According to open source reports the Blackhawk was not over run until all the rifle ammo had been expended. Paul Howe is obviously a great shot but he was using irons in Mogadishu. I believe the 10th mountain division had one battle where they ran Black on everything but 5.56, they also killed a ton of guys during it if I'm remembering the story right. Imagine if they had nothing but 7.62/.50/40mm, they would all be dead today. |
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Posted: 8/9/2017 3:01:41 PM EDT
[#50]
The more I think about it
old Kalashnikov was right kill all the bastards in the room kill em tonight .30 caliber, 130 gr, hard steel core, old school. Sometimes the old ways are best. AR platform for accuracy and decent sights. There it is. Don't forget micro quad copters to go out and find them. PS, I'd rather be in Roma. |
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