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Posted: 1/23/2017 2:19:40 PM EST
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The right ordnance for the the job seems to be coming. the 2.75" rocket can do some awesome shit now, including the PGM role. Air-dropped mortar rounds are being developed for UAV use... IMHO, that's the way to go. 81mm rounds could be carried by the dozens by even tiny little LAARs, and even they have PGM capability now. Basically think "deconstructed cluster bomb". The smaller/softer the target, the less boom you need, and the less boom you have, the closer you can use it to your own troops (or bystanders). Hell, with PGM capability, I could even envision something like a round with a non-frag casing, like fiberglass or some such. No frag, just concussion. It would still jack up an MG crew if you set it off in their faces, and you could use it crazy-danger-close to stuff you didn't want to kill. Good thinking here. This has to be the future, at least until we decide we actually want to fight wars as if we want to win again. |
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Posted: 1/23/2017 2:24:52 PM EST
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Modern Attack helicopters are very expensive to operate. Hourly costs on an AH64E can top $5-7000 depending on how you calculate them. The whole aircraft is rotating dynamic components which have constant MX and inspection criteria. The ancillary weapon systems, etc are also finicky and complex. A single engine turboprop, even though it adds in pressurization and ejection seats, has much less dynamic rotating components and a lower cost to operate. can't be that complicated. its 10 times cheaper than flying an F15E or F22. |
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Posted: 1/23/2017 2:25:15 PM EST
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
We give everyone a chance to provide input into their career and location. In the end sometimes it's the needs of the Air Force that win, but why not give people a choice on what they want? |
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Posted: 1/23/2017 2:25:51 PM EST
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Stall speed? A propeller on an engine does not automatically guarantee longer range or endurance. The only benefit is generally improved propulsive efficiency that can be exploited for longer range or endurance, but the airplane also needs the fuel supply on board - little fuel, little range, big fuel, big range. The perfect LAAR aircraft is fast to the fight and can deliver its weapons with precision while giving up as little as that speed as possible. Otherwise, vulnerability goes up with every knot decrease in speed. If the weapon requires extremely close delivery, then sparkling climb rate is required. That airplane might be a jet. wrong. The perfect LAAR is ubiquitous enough to be there when the fight starts. |
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Posted: 1/23/2017 2:28:54 PM EST
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
wrong. The perfect LAAR is ubiquitous enough to be there when the fight starts. Be where when the fight starts? Directly overhead of the unit in contact? |
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Posted: 1/23/2017 2:29:27 PM EST
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Damn. It's not the experience manipulating the controls of the airplane that matters. That's monkey work. Yeah. Experience as a pilot really doesnt count for much. Keep on, you are doing so well! |
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Posted: 1/23/2017 2:36:07 PM EST
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
wrong. The perfect LAAR is ubiquitous enough to be there when the fight starts. I have mind a "riding shotgun" mission concept. Again, looking at the attack chopper role, but with longer legs and cheap enough to use more often. Ground Element Maneuver Escort. GEME. DoD loves acronyms. 
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Posted: 1/23/2017 2:37:20 PM EST
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah. Experience as a pilot really doesnt count for much. Keep on, you are doing so well! Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Damn. It's not the experience manipulating the controls of the airplane that matters. That's monkey work. Yeah. Experience as a pilot really doesnt count for much. Keep on, you are doing so well! 
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Posted: 1/23/2017 2:39:06 PM EST
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Be where when the fight starts? Directly overhead of the unit in contact? Yes. High risk missions often would have a OH-58 flight escort them to and from the objective. Due to their low endurance, the missions were tight. but an integrated air/ground team during the entire mission is optimal. which is why SOCOM gets AC-130s from beginning to end. thats what actual air support looks like. |
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Posted: 1/23/2017 2:46:36 PM EST
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes. High risk missions often would have a OH-58 flight escort them to and from the objective. Due to their low endurance, the missions were tight. but an integrated air/ground team during the entire mission is optimal. which is why SOCOM gets AC-130s from beginning to end. thats what actual air support looks like. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Be where when the fight starts? Directly overhead of the unit in contact? Yes. High risk missions often would have a OH-58 flight escort them to and from the objective. Due to their low endurance, the missions were tight. but an integrated air/ground team during the entire mission is optimal. which is why SOCOM gets AC-130s from beginning to end. thats what actual air support looks like. I'm just trying to understand the scope of how many sorties per day would be needed if your objective is to have armed overwatch of every element outside of the wire. Any guess how many hours of cover that would be a month? |
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Posted: 1/23/2017 2:55:57 PM EST
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm just trying to understand the scope of how many sorties per day would be needed if your objective is to have armed overwatch of every element outside of the wire. Any guess how many hours of cover that would be a month? It makes sense once you figure out that the objective is to spend more money. |
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Posted: 1/23/2017 3:01:14 PM EST
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It makes sense once you figure out that the objective is to spend more money. Not really. It's just napkin math but LAAR over everything is cheaper than B-1s over the country. |
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Posted: 1/23/2017 3:01:56 PM EST
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm just trying to understand the scope of how many sorties per day would be needed if your objective is to have armed overwatch of every element outside of the wire. Any guess how many hours of cover that would be a month? Fair enough. And obviously every patrol wouldn't rate. But the prioritization would happen at the, in Afghanistan, the Provincial level. 6 aircraft in each "priority" province and a 2-4 ships in secondary provinces. Helos generally operate in flights of 2 for self recovery. Which isn't an issue with fixed wing. 1 LAAR would give you the same coverage as about 10 rotary wing due to maintenance, endurance and the ability to operate independently. So for all of afghanistan figure 6 priority provinces and 4 secondary. 50 operational aircraft total. This would COMPLETELY replace attack and scout rotary and provide 90% of on-call CAS outside JSOC elements while greatly increasing efficacy (ie killing mother fuckers and deterring others) this, of course, necessitates apportioned aircraft to the BSO and would never be allowed by the AF, which neuters the whole point of LAAR in the first place. Which, I suspect with much history to support my opinion, is the point. |
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Posted: 1/23/2017 3:02:59 PM EST
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It makes sense once you figure out that the objective is to spend more money. you could fly 1,000 LAARs over afghanistan for what we have spent for B1s over the past 15 years. |
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Posted: 1/23/2017 3:04:43 PM EST
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Good. It about time they decided to defund the A10 in pursuit of realistic options for the wars we fight. 
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Posted: 1/23/2017 3:05:45 PM EST
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They know the boss is going to shove their non support of his Marines up their ass. He has a long memory of AF antics and bullshit during a war where his Marines were bleeding while AF generals played games. They earned it. Which was when exactly? |
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Posted: 1/23/2017 3:07:30 PM EST
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Which was when exactly? marines don't do history as much as they do lore. |
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Posted: 1/23/2017 3:10:13 PM EST
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:50 operational aircraft total. We only need 50 aircraft total? Aren't we already flying more unmanned 24/7 orbits than that? |
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Posted: 1/23/2017 3:11:56 PM EST
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
We only need 50 aircraft total? Aren't we already flying more unmanned 24/7 orbits than that? you are confusing air support with ISR. Our orbit count is ridiculous because we currently conduct operations in the absence of intelligence because, as noted, intelligence expires before we can respond. Much of that due to our antiquated JTAGS. |
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Posted: 1/23/2017 3:15:07 PM EST
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Good. It about time they decided to defund the A10 in pursuit of realistic options for the wars we fight. Ban this man right now. |
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Posted: 1/23/2017 3:16:44 PM EST
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
marines don't do history as much as they do lore. Other-wise known as "talking out your ass". |
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Posted: 1/23/2017 3:17:11 PM EST
[#22]
Bring the super tweet out o mothballs....
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Posted: 1/23/2017 3:27:26 PM EST
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
wrong. The perfect LAAR is ubiquitous enough to be there when the fight starts. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Stall speed? A propeller on an engine does not automatically guarantee longer range or endurance. The only benefit is generally improved propulsive efficiency that can be exploited for longer range or endurance, but the airplane also needs the fuel supply on board - little fuel, little range, big fuel, big range. The perfect LAAR aircraft is fast to the fight and can deliver its weapons with precision while giving up as little as that speed as possible. Otherwise, vulnerability goes up with every knot decrease in speed. If the weapon requires extremely close delivery, then sparkling climb rate is required. That airplane might be a jet. wrong. The perfect LAAR is ubiquitous enough to be there when the fight starts. That is not wrong. The airplane has to come from somewhere else. The only time a LAAR airplane is on site is during a planned or anticipated assault from the blue side, or one from the red side that is detected or anticipated. I doubt they would ever be deployed in a hunter-killer role cruising the countryside looking for trouble; maybe that is the right mission, but it still doesn't mean the airplane won't be required to dash to a fight. Unless you are advocating for STOVL airplanes following your troops and operating from nearby austere sites. Along with the engineers to prepare temporary sites. Or, you are okay with delivering bombs or rockets from high endurance uav's loitering overhead 40 to 50 thousand feet. I'd rate both of those options as "ain't gonna happen", and, "better than nothing", and the second only because our precision weapons are becoming sufficiently accurate to kill small targets. |
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Posted: 1/23/2017 3:29:20 PM EST
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm just trying to understand the scope of how many sorties per day would be needed if your objective is to have armed overwatch of every element outside of the wire. Any guess how many hours of cover that would be a month? |
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Posted: 1/23/2017 3:29:49 PM EST
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Bring the super tweet out o mothballs.... http://cdn-live.warthunder.com/uploads/55/587c40e127c0e1cee43c5463eb7288471c04bc/Cessna_A-37_Dragonfly_%231.jpg I just looked in the AMARC Experience's database and there are 80 T-37Bs and 0 A-37s in mothballs |
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Posted: 1/23/2017 3:31:42 PM EST
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That is not wrong. The airplane has to come from somewhere else. The only time a LAAR airplane is on site is during a planned or anticipated assault from the blue side, or one from the red side that is detected or anticipated. I doubt they would ever be deployed in a hunter-killer role cruising the countryside looking for trouble; maybe that is the right mission, but it still doesn't mean the airplane won't be required to dash to a fight. Unless you are advocating for STOVL airplanes following your troops and operating from nearby austere sites. Along with the engineers to prepare temporary sites. Or, you are okay with delivering bombs or rockets from high endurance uav's loitering overhead 40 to 50 thousand feet. I'd rate both of those options as "ain't gonna happen", and, "better than nothing", and the second only because our precision weapons are becoming sufficiently accurate to kill small targets. 1. The development of a LAAR strip (if properly spec'd) is easy. I think every major province in Afghanistan had a C-130 capable strip. Hell, even bumfuck zabul had a jet capable strip. 2. the "dash" fight is WAY over-rated. The enemy knows our response time. They unass the AO faster than any fixed wing. 3. Just because you plan to have an aircraft doesn't mean the aircraft has to be co-located. You match LD and the plane is there when needed. probably a 20 minute flight from KAF to where I was at. That still gives me 2.5 hours of overhead time. I get 90 minutes from skids up to skids down with a stripped 64 flying from the same province. |
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Posted: 1/23/2017 3:32:13 PM EST
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I just looked in the AMARC Experience's database and there are 80 T-38Bs and 0 AT-38s in mothballs. We gave away all our A-38s to Central/South America. |
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Posted: 1/23/2017 3:34:45 PM EST
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
We gave away all our A-38s to Central/South America. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I just looked in the AMARC Experience's database and there are 80 T-38Bs and 0 AT-38s in mothballs. We gave away all our A-38s to Central/South America. I actually had a typo, it should have read A-37. But the rest is valid. (Not correcting you, just saying it before anyone gets on me for it) |
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Posted: 1/23/2017 3:38:36 PM EST
[#29]
There were whole grid squares we couldn't get soldiers to because we'd be run out of ammo a few hours into every attempt. Seems like a good mission to fly for...
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Posted: 1/23/2017 3:39:24 PM EST
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I actually had a typo, it should have read A-37. But the rest is valid. (Not correcting you, just saying it before anyone gets on me for it) Whoops! I knew that, too. I was just copying you. 
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Posted: 1/23/2017 3:40:19 PM EST
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There were whole grid squares we couldn't get soldiers to because we'd be run out of ammo a few hours into every attempt. Seems like a good mission to fly for... 2 of those LAAR thingies, 4 blackhawks, a chinook and 2 platoons of infantry and I would go into the depths of hell. |
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Posted: 1/23/2017 3:40:30 PM EST
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There were whole grid squares we couldn't get soldiers to because we'd be run out of ammo a few hours into every attempt. Seems like a good mission to fly for... Seems like a good mission to have persistent ISR and on-location strike assets for a planned operation. Things that could be done today. |
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Posted: 1/23/2017 3:42:03 PM EST
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Seems like a good mission to have persistent ISR and on-location strike assets for a planned operation. Things that could be done today. and in the space of that planning, the enemy is gone. |
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Posted: 1/23/2017 3:43:44 PM EST
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
2 of those LAAR thingies, 4 blackhawks, a chinook and 2 platoons of infantry and I would go into the depths of hell. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
There were whole grid squares we couldn't get soldiers to because we'd be run out of ammo a few hours into every attempt. Seems like a good mission to fly for... 2 of those LAAR thingies, 4 blackhawks, a chinook and 2 platoons of infantry and I would go into the depths of hell. They would make good armed escorts for rotary wing. |
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Posted: 1/23/2017 3:44:31 PM EST
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
and in the space of that planning, the enemy is gone. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Seems like a good mission to have persistent ISR and on-location strike assets for a planned operation. Things that could be done today. and in the space of that planning, the enemy is gone. "A few hours into every attempt" implies an ongoing problem. |
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Posted: 1/23/2017 3:47:53 PM EST
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
"A few hours into every attempt" implies an ongoing problem. yep. this is what you seek. |
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Posted: 1/23/2017 3:55:01 PM EST
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ban this man right now. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Good. It about time they decided to defund the A10 in pursuit of realistic options for the wars we fight. Ban this man right now. i'd be ok with dropping the a10 as long as they sell the guns through cmp |
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Posted: 1/23/2017 3:55:42 PM EST
[#38]
This aircraft is a beast Air Tractor AT-802U
http://802u.com/ Sorry can't embed yet. |
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Posted: 1/23/2017 3:56:04 PM EST
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Bring back the F4 LOL! No. |
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Posted: 1/23/2017 3:57:08 PM EST
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This aircraft is a beast Air Tractor AT-802U http://802u.com/ Sorry can't embed yet. The Casa 235 gunship is cool as fuck. |
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Posted: 1/23/2017 3:58:24 PM EST
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I just looked in the AMARC Experience's database and there are 80 T-37Bs and 0 A-37s in mothballs 
Cessna can build more! 
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Posted: 1/23/2017 4:12:38 PM EST
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
"A few hours into every attempt" implies an ongoing problem. yep. this is what you seek. As an outsider, that seems like something that should be right up the 101st's alley. |
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Posted: 1/23/2017 4:12:43 PM EST
[#43]
Cambodia got a few Helio Stallions just as VN was winding down-supposedly they had a very low stall speed and could operate from very short airstrips.
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Posted: 1/23/2017 4:17:19 PM EST
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As an outsider, that seems like something that should be right up the 101st's alley. I hate on the AF, but the army is equally as fucked up. the key to it is instant response and coordinated airpower. These skirmishes would go on for hours. the rhodies used the lynx and the dakotas (after dropping paras, the rhodesian dakotas had a gunship port and would stay on station) this shit only works as long as you maintain aerial coverage. Rotary wing doesn't have the endurance to stay on station. so you need fast response and gunships with endurance. ie fixed wing. |
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Posted: 1/23/2017 4:17:26 PM EST
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Casa 235 gunship is cool as fuck. I vote we convert our Casas
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Posted: 1/23/2017 4:19:46 PM EST
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I hate on the AF, but the army is equally as fucked up. the key to it is instant response and coordinated airpower. These skirmishes would go on for hours. the rhodies used the lynx and the dakotas (after dropping paras, the rhodesian dakotas had a gunship port and would stay on station) this shit only works as long as you maintain aerial coverage. Rotary wing doesn't have the endurance to stay on station. so you need fast response and gunships with endurance. ie fixed wing. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
As an outsider, that seems like something that should be right up the 101st's alley. I hate on the AF, but the army is equally as fucked up. the key to it is instant response and coordinated airpower. These skirmishes would go on for hours. the rhodies used the lynx and the dakotas (after dropping paras, the rhodesian dakotas had a gunship port and would stay on station) this shit only works as long as you maintain aerial coverage. Rotary wing doesn't have the endurance to stay on station. so you need fast response and gunships with endurance. ie fixed wing. With the right drive a "get both" could well work. Organic AH-64s as armed escorts and air support until fixed wing can arrive on station to provide the longer endurance support. |
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Posted: 1/23/2017 4:25:25 PM EST
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
With the right drive a "get both" could well work. Organic AH-64s as armed escorts and air support until fixed wing can arrive on station to provide the longer endurance support. Cut out the middle man. You are now using the most expensive to fly asset to do the nug work. remember that fireforce only responded with eyes on target. dry holes were very rare. they flew because they were ready to kill. fixed wing is superior in this role in nearly every regard. |
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Posted: 1/23/2017 4:26:51 PM EST
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
They would make good armed escorts for rotary wing. And MV-22. Much better than shoehorning a dinky little 7-shot 2.75" pod on to the Osprey. |
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Posted: 1/23/2017 4:28:08 PM EST
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
And MV-22. Much better than shoehorning a dinky little 7-shot 2.75" pod on to the Osprey. also a very nifty rear area security asset and counter UAV. |
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Posted: 1/23/2017 4:28:15 PM EST
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Cut out the middle man. You are now using the most expensive to fly asset to do the nug work. remember that fireforce only responded with eyes on target. dry holes were very rare. they flew because they were ready to kill. fixed wing is superior in this role in nearly every regard. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
With the right drive a "get both" could well work. Organic AH-64s as armed escorts and air support until fixed wing can arrive on station to provide the longer endurance support. Cut out the middle man. You are now using the most expensive to fly asset to do the nug work. remember that fireforce only responded with eyes on target. dry holes were very rare. they flew because they were ready to kill. fixed wing is superior in this role in nearly every regard. The reason for that thought is that it is much easier to ensure that the assets show up in the order you want them if they all leave from the same location. This could work with an LAAR escort but would require that all the Fireforce bases be capable of rotary and fixed wing operations which may be limiting. |
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