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Link Posted: 12/21/2010 4:12:07 PM EST
[#1]
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I wonder how effective the tactic of using the main battery firing a broadside of HE projectiles fuzed to burst among a volley of missiles would fare against the Kirov's salvo.  The Japanese certainly were not very effective using that tactic against aircraft but there are differences there.

Useless.  Missiles like the SS-N-19 SHIPWRECK the KIROV would have launched are traveling at extremely high speeds in their terminal phase.  The window of opportunity to engage at that range is very very short, consequently you have to use a dedicated automated CIWS system or point defense missiles to engage.  Which is why BB's of the Reagan/Bush era traveled in SAG's, escorted by at least one AEGIS cruiser for area air defense and one SPRUANCE class destroyer to lead ASW defense.  Throw in some Frigates for additional air and subsurface defense, plus the HARPOON capability they all brought to the dance and you had a pretty effective battle group.

Oh, and back to 1944, YAMATO did have an OTH detection and correction mechanism, the 6 or 7 E13A1 "Jake" Floatplanes she embarked.

EDITED FOR SPELLING
   


The Japanese had a fragmentation shell designed for AA purposes  to be fired out of the 18.5's...they were rarely used [if  at all] because of worries of damage to the guns bores.

IIRC, the Musashi fired hers at the aircraft that eventually sunk her.

The pilots were on record commenting that the Japs tended to not lead them enough, and the shells burst behind the attacking formations.
 


IJN gunners were quoted as being skeptical of using them because the AA shells weren't well documented.  It's not that they were considered damaging to the bores, it's that their wear factor on the gun liners was uncertain.  There's a better article about it I read somewhere, but what it basically boiled down to was that the IJN had extremely precise wear factors for most AP and HC / HE shells, allowing them to calculate ballistics for each shot.  But they didn't have good tables worked out for the beehive AA shells and were therefore worried about not being able to know exact wear calculations on a given gun liner for later shots.  It's debatable how different the wear even would have been, since they used a pretty standardized driving band and powder load.

Either way, on the few occasions when they were used, our pilots pretty much just went "oh, hey, fireworks."  The large-bore AA shells ended up being basically useless in combat.
Link Posted: 12/21/2010 4:13:08 PM EST
[#2]
Quoted:

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gunnery computer. Sayonara, Yamato.


This.
Toured the USS New Jersey last summer.
Through all the decades of refitting and all the technology improvements, they still used the original fire control for the main guns.
Couldn't find anything to do it better, and she fought into the 90's!


Ford Mark IA?

Link Posted: 12/21/2010 4:19:30 PM EST
[#3]
Quoted:

Quoted:
I wonder how effective the tactic of using the main battery firing a broadside of HE projectiles fuzed to burst among a volley of missiles would fare against the Kirov's salvo.  The Japanese certainly were not very effective using that tactic against aircraft but there are differences there.

Useless.  Missiles like the SS-N-19 SHIPWRECK the KIROV would have launched are traveling at extremely high speeds in their terminal phase.  The window of opportunity to engage at that range is very very short, consequently you have to use a dedicated automated CIWS system or point defense missiles to engage.  Which is why BB's of the Reagan/Bush era traveled in SAG's, escorted by at least one AEGIS cruiser for area air defense and one SPRUANCE class destroyer to lead ASW defense.  Throw in some Frigates for additional air and subsurface defense, plus the HARPOON capability they all brought to the dance and you had a pretty effective battle group.

Oh, and back to 1944, YAMATO did have an OTH detection and correction mechanism, the 6 or 7 E13A1 "Jake" Floatplanes she embarked.

EDITED FOR SPELLING
   


Dport would probably be the one to ask, but I don't think CIWS is really going to be effective against the missiles the Kirov would fire.  My non-classified understanding is that the SOviet missiles were optomized to penetrate a carrier deck.  I leave the pros to wrestle with whether the fusing in the probable warhead on a Shipwreck or Sunburn will work as designed when slapped into a battleship.

Link Posted: 12/21/2010 4:28:45 PM EST
[#4]
Quoted:

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Missouri

Now, if we fast-forward 35 years, and to Missouri vs Kirov...

The Missouri gets smoked, most likely without getting a shot off....



The Soviet nuclear battlecruiser Kirov... Their flagship.

It was armed with some VERY, VERY dangerous supersonic AShMs, which would very easily wipe out an Iowa-class (which was almost completely lacking in anti-missile defenses) in a 1v1 un-assisted engagement, before the Iowa got to 16" range...

Essentially, the exact same reason the Iowa-class would beat one of it's Jap contemporaries, 1-v-1: Generation gap and more effective weapons.


 


Kirov vs Missouri with Harpoon missiles and CIWS, the equipment the ship was carrying during the 1908's?  I would go with the Missouri.
Link Posted: 12/21/2010 4:33:22 PM EST
[#5]
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Google "Kirishima scuttled". I remember reading it many years ago as I was into this stuff (still am). Accounts vary as to HOW she was scuttled (i.e. torpedoed or opening flood valves) but almost all concur she was indeed scuttled. Now, I'm not saying it wouldn't have gone down from the damage sustained but just that the Japs DID order the scuttling.



Also, I looked at the one link here of the specific hit areas of the various shells on the Kirishima. Did the U.S. Navy specifically target the waterline or was it "luck"? Were the distances of that night considered "point blank" range for battleships?  


Google "Kirishima's battle damage", NAVWEAPONS website has the Sep 2010 US Navy assessment on the engagement in .pdf.


So it appears that there is a discrepancy in accounts. None is apparently definitive. Read the others in the Google search.

My assertion was that the Kirishima was scuttled by Japanese effort, not that it wouldn't have gone down from American damage, which was fatal.

Link Posted: 12/21/2010 4:43:15 PM EST
[#6]
Quoted:
The Yamato has the Wave Motion Gun and can fly.

It's not even close.





QFT
Link Posted: 12/21/2010 4:59:03 PM EST
[#7]
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Google "Kirishima scuttled". I remember reading it many years ago as I was into this stuff (still am). Accounts vary as to HOW she was scuttled (i.e. torpedoed or opening flood valves) but almost all concur she was indeed scuttled. Now, I'm not saying it wouldn't have gone down from the damage sustained but just that the Japs DID order the scuttling.



Also, I looked at the one link here of the specific hit areas of the various shells on the Kirishima. Did the U.S. Navy specifically target the waterline or was it "luck"? Were the distances of that night considered "point blank" range for battleships?  


Google "Kirishima's battle damage", NAVWEAPONS website has the Sep 2010 US Navy assessment on the engagement in .pdf.


So it appears that there is a discrepancy in accounts. None is apparently definitive. Read the others in the Google search.

My assertion was that the Kirishima was scuttled by Japanese effort, not that it wouldn't have gone down from American damage, which was fatal.



The US Navy accepted her as being scuttled:

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/USSBS/IJO/IJO-33.html
"Interrogation of: Lieut.-Comdr. TOKUNO, Horishi, IJN, who was Assistant Gunnery Officer of the Kirishima (BB) at GUADALCANAL, 12-14 November 1942 and at MIDWAY, 4-6 June 1942. He was Gunnery Officer of the Minegumo (DD) which was sunk in a night action at VILLA, 6 March 1943.

Interrogated by: Captain C. Shands, USN.  ...
Q. Did the Kirishima sink as a result of the gunfire?
A. No. Shortly after the American ships opened fire the steering of the Kirishima was so badly damaged that we were unable to steer or repair it. We kept turning in a circle but couldn't get away. We slowed down to try to steer with the engines but it was no use. Our engines were not badly damaged, but we were receiving many hits from the Washington. Then the Captain decided that since we couldn't steer and the engines were damaged that it would be better to scuttle the ship. He then gave the order to open the Kingston valves. We did not receive any torpedo hits."
Link Posted: 12/22/2010 8:05:28 AM EST
[#8]




Quoted:



Quoted:





Quoted:

I wonder how effective the tactic of using the main battery firing a broadside of HE projectiles fuzed to burst among a volley of missiles would fare against the Kirov's salvo. The Japanese certainly were not very effective using that tactic against aircraft but there are differences there.


Useless. Missiles like the SS-N-19 SHIPWRECK the KIROV would have launched are traveling at extremely high speeds in their terminal phase. The window of opportunity to engage at that range is very very short, consequently you have to use a dedicated automated CIWS system or point defense missiles to engage. Which is why BB's of the Reagan/Bush era traveled in SAG's, escorted by at least one AEGIS cruiser for area air defense and one SPRUANCE class destroyer to lead ASW defense. Throw in some Frigates for additional air and subsurface defense, plus the HARPOON capability they all brought to the dance and you had a pretty effective battle group.



Oh, and back to 1944, YAMATO did have an OTH detection and correction mechanism, the 6 or 7 E13A1 "Jake" Floatplanes she embarked.



EDITED FOR SPELLING





Dport would probably be the one to ask, but I don't think CIWS is really going to be effective against the missiles the Kirov would fire. My non-classified understanding is that the SOviet missiles were optomized to penetrate a carrier deck. I leave the pros to wrestle with whether the fusing in the probable warhead on a Shipwreck or Sunburn will work as designed when slapped into a battleship.





Actually CIWS would have been effective, how effective depends on how many missiles actually get to the ship.  The missile has to get to the target first, and to do that it not only has to penetrate the hard kill capability that would have been present via SM2 missiles from the CG and FFG, and possibly Sea Sparrow from the DD, then it needs to get past the soft kill as well.  Mid course guidance can be disrupted (or destroyed), jamming and spoofing can fool the seeker, etc..  US EW capability of the period was pretty good, fortunately we never had to find out if it was up to the task of dealing with SHIPWRECK.  I won't address SUNBURN since that system is not on KIROV class ships.



If a single SHIPWRECK did get to a BB the probability would be the ship would survive, in a degraded state, a possible mission kill.  More then one leaker, the chances of the ship surviving drops off pretty dramatically.   NATO didn't call them SHIPWRECK for nothing.
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