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I didn't watch it, but reading the feedback is enough.
I wonder what these cops' lives are like around town. Its a town of 25K. A lot of their force let those kids get massacred. |
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I don't know how anyone, LEO or not, could stand there listening to those shots and knowing children were likely dying without taking some kind of action.
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Quoted: That guy looks a lot like Eva Mireles's husband. I suppose ignorance is a defense against libel. For a publication to make money off of him being a victim, then make money off of him being an anti-hero, taking his photos under the premise of "fair use", I don't see how the guy could ever be made whole. Provided it's even actionable because of the ignorance defense. And, if I'm looking at these photographs correctly. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: That guy looks a lot like Eva Mireles's husband. I suppose ignorance is a defense against libel. For a publication to make money off of him being a victim, then make money off of him being an anti-hero, taking his photos under the premise of "fair use", I don't see how the guy could ever be made whole. Provided it's even actionable because of the ignorance defense. And, if I'm looking at these photographs correctly. That is him, as another poster pointed out. He checks his other phone, walks out of frame, then walks back into frame and say "My wife has been shot", you can barely make it out around 9:00. He then continues to pace, and finally just walks out of frame seemingly out of the building. Doesn't even look like they restrained him like how DPS said. |
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Wasn't there some ruling/court decision on the duty to protect not being a thing?
Ah, Warren vs. DC & DESHANEY v. WINNEBAGO CTY. SOC. SERVS. DEPT. and Most recently, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 11th Circuit upheld a lower court ruling that police could not be held liable for failing to protect students in the 2018 shooting that claimed 17 lives at Marjorie Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida. |
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Quoted: The only police I know of who pay for their own off duty training are cops who are into guns already. Almost no cop who isn't into guns goes to a gun class on their own dime, I think I met two who did. I've never heard of a police officer paying for anything but a gun class I guess I should backpedal, there are police officers who attend college for degrees like masters in "public administration" but the only technical training I have heard of is cops who are into shooting or karate going to classes similar to their non work interest in firearms or martial arts. I've never heard of a cop who was a bad driver paying to go to a driving school View Quote When my father was a probation/parole officer he did pistol and martial arts training on his own. His co workers made fun of him for it. |
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View Quote I know a few just like him ![]() |
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Quoted: You would think that after the population sees this video it would reinforce in the minds of the people of their need to CCW and the importance of the 2 Amendment. You would think that people would wake up to the fact that you have to be ready to defend yourself and family and not completely depend on the police to come to your rescue when time is of the essence. It is so heartbreaking and angering to watch the video knowing that little children are being slaughtered while police standby and do nothing. ![]() View Quote Problem is there was no way in. And if you think the cops wouldn’t have shot a parent dead that brandished a CCW and tried to gain entry you’re out of your mind. I agree with your sentiments but wouldn’t have made any difference in this situation. I would put money that one of those hero cops would have shot a parent with a firearm. What I am very surprised of with it being Texas and all is that none of the dads in the parking lot didn’t 1) have a gun on them or their vehicle and 2) didn’t attempt to enter if they did. I am ALWAYS armed with a handgun and have a dedicated “truck gun “ that is ready. If it were my kids school I would have died trying. |
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Quoted: I doubt that is close to being the case and you're trying to use the exception and apply it as the rule. I know in the 12 years I was married to a nurse, she paid for 1 class she attended. Everything else she attended was provided by her employer or she was recouped the expense of attending the class. And that is pretty much the standard for the nursing field from what Ive seen around here. Most cops talk about being provided training by the agency because 1) they are often too cheap to pay for it themselves 2) they often dont know how to find the training 3) their agencies have the legal duty to provide training for the tasks the officers are tasked with performing (Canton v Harris being the first case most people bring up). So to have police officers expect their agency to provide them training or pay for them to attend training is reasonable. And this is coming from someone who has been training outside my agency and footing the bill for 20 years. And where are police officers recruited from? General society......so if there is an issue with conflict avoidance in society as whole, you are going to see it in policing too. But issues of character, failing to step up dont have anything to do with someone choosing to attend/not attend a class. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: odds are high that you're spending your own time and money learning things useful to you on the job. Simple as that. I doubt that is close to being the case and you're trying to use the exception and apply it as the rule. I know in the 12 years I was married to a nurse, she paid for 1 class she attended. Everything else she attended was provided by her employer or she was recouped the expense of attending the class. And that is pretty much the standard for the nursing field from what Ive seen around here. Most cops talk about being provided training by the agency because 1) they are often too cheap to pay for it themselves 2) they often dont know how to find the training 3) their agencies have the legal duty to provide training for the tasks the officers are tasked with performing (Canton v Harris being the first case most people bring up). So to have police officers expect their agency to provide them training or pay for them to attend training is reasonable. And this is coming from someone who has been training outside my agency and footing the bill for 20 years. This discussion is happening in the context of an abject failure of the most basic duty police officers have. If we were talking about any other profession that got this many people killed from sheer cowardice, the reviews wouldn't be any prettier. There's lots of problems in society and low standards are out there aplenty...but this is a massive cultural problem in the institution of policing. And where are police officers recruited from? General society......so if there is an issue with conflict avoidance in society as whole, you are going to see it in policing too. But issues of character, failing to step up dont have anything to do with someone choosing to attend/not attend a class. And to make matters worse, for a seemingly majority of them it was not a ‘calling to serve the community’ it was a last resort career path. Much like the teaching profession. |
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Im not a cop, was never in the military, i am an auto mechanic. I have lots of friends that were/are cops and former military, i have done some training, now do i consider myself a tier one operator? No. If this happened at my kids school, yeah i would have tries to be the first one there, first objective - neutralize the shooter with extreme prejudice. No way i could stand there and listen to kids dieing. All of those officers that stood there, ALL OF THEM, need to be ostracized by their communities, they all should be brought up on charges. Even if it wasnt my kids, i still could not live with myself if i was one of those cowardly, no balls, no spine, weaklings. Could i have done better? I dont know but i would not have waited for over an hour.
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Quoted: That is him, as another poster pointed out. He checks his other phone, walks out of frame, then walks back into frame and say "My wife has been shot", you can barely make it out around 9:00. He then continues to pace, and finally just walks out of frame seemingly out of the building. Doesn't even look like they restrained him like how DPS said. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: That guy looks a lot like Eva Mireles's husband. I suppose ignorance is a defense against libel. For a publication to make money off of him being a victim, then make money off of him being an anti-hero, taking his photos under the premise of "fair use", I don't see how the guy could ever be made whole. Provided it's even actionable because of the ignorance defense. And, if I'm looking at these photographs correctly. That is him, as another poster pointed out. He checks his other phone, walks out of frame, then walks back into frame and say "My wife has been shot", you can barely make it out around 9:00. He then continues to pace, and finally just walks out of frame seemingly out of the building. Doesn't even look like they restrained him like how DPS said. No doubt the guy was in shock. He probably had no idea where he even was. |
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Quoted: The only police I know of who pay for their own off duty training are cops who are into guns already. Almost no cop who isn't into guns goes to a gun class on their own dime, I think I met two who did. I've never heard of a police officer paying for anything but a gun class I guess I should backpedal, there are police officers who attend college for degrees like masters in "public administration" but the only technical training I have heard of is cops who are into shooting or karate going to classes similar to their non work interest in firearms or martial arts. I've never heard of a cop who was a bad driver paying to go to a driving school View Quote for guys wanting to get into our aviation unit, they have to go out and pay for the flight lessons and associated fees. Around here, there are a lot of training opportunities available through the inservice CJ programs at the community colleges. The training is free, but you may have to take the class during your off time while also paying for all the needed equipment. When I was a young cop; racked up classes by working all night then going to training during the day when I should have been sleeping. Hell; I just spent two days in a CQB class where I was allowed to attend the training as my duty days but I had to front all my own kit, ammo, pay for travel/lodging, etc with 0 compensation from the agency. |
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Quoted: Im not a cop, was never in the military, i am an auto mechanic. I have lots of friends that were/are cops and former military, i have done some training, now do i consider myself a tier one operator? No. If this happened at my kids school, yeah i would have tries to be the first one there, first objective - neutralize the shooter with extreme prejudice. No way i could stand there and listen to kids dieing. All of those officers that stood there, ALL OF THEM, need to be ostracized by their communities, they all should be brought up on charges. Even if it wasnt my kids, i still could not live with myself if i was one of those cowardly, no balls, no spine, weaklings. Could i have done better? I dont know but i would not have waited for over an hour. View Quote I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. The guillotine needs to make a come back in that town. Fuck around and fleece tax payers for your Salary for years only to cower in fear once you are called upon. Off with your head comrade. |
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Quoted: for guys wanting to get into our aviation unit, they have to go out and pay for the flight lessons and associated fees. Around here, there are a lot of training opportunities available through the inservice CJ programs at the community colleges. The training is free, but you may have to take the class during your off time while also paying for all the needed equipment. When I was a young cop; racked up classes by working all night then going to training during the day when I should have been sleeping. Hell; I just spent two days in a CQB class where I was allowed to attend the training as my duty days but I had to front all my own kit, ammo, pay for travel/lodging, etc with 0 compensation from the agency. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: The only police I know of who pay for their own off duty training are cops who are into guns already. Almost no cop who isn't into guns goes to a gun class on their own dime, I think I met two who did. I've never heard of a police officer paying for anything but a gun class I guess I should backpedal, there are police officers who attend college for degrees like masters in "public administration" but the only technical training I have heard of is cops who are into shooting or karate going to classes similar to their non work interest in firearms or martial arts. I've never heard of a cop who was a bad driver paying to go to a driving school for guys wanting to get into our aviation unit, they have to go out and pay for the flight lessons and associated fees. Around here, there are a lot of training opportunities available through the inservice CJ programs at the community colleges. The training is free, but you may have to take the class during your off time while also paying for all the needed equipment. When I was a young cop; racked up classes by working all night then going to training during the day when I should have been sleeping. Hell; I just spent two days in a CQB class where I was allowed to attend the training as my duty days but I had to front all my own kit, ammo, pay for travel/lodging, etc with 0 compensation from the agency. I know of a recent State Patrol aviation slot here were they had three applications, two with zero flight experience and one CFI. The local PD rotary takes officers and sends them to flight school. |
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Quoted: And to make matters worse, for a seemingly majority of them it was not a ‘calling to serve the community’ it was a last resort career path. Much like the teaching profession. View Quote I'm sure its different due to where I work, but we dont really see the "no other option" applicants here. |
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Quoted: Im not a cop, was never in the military, i am an auto mechanic. I have lots of friends that were/are cops and former military, i have done some training, now do i consider myself a tier one operator? No. If this happened at my kids school, yeah i would have tries to be the first one there, first objective - neutralize the shooter with extreme prejudice. No way i could stand there and listen to kids dieing. All of those officers that stood there, ALL OF THEM, need to be ostracized by their communities, they all should be brought up on charges. Even if it wasnt my kids, i still could not live with myself if i was one of those cowardly, no balls, no spine, weaklings. Could i have done better? I dont know but i would not have waited for over an hour. View Quote People have lost the ability to be shamed in our new, all inclusive, modern society. Used to be those cops would have moved out of town, or more, for the dishonor they brought upon themselves, profession, and by extension their families. Now, they would rather post pics of their buttholes. |
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OK, I'm not going to make a new thread. But, prepare yourself.
There is an unedited version of the video out. In that version you can hear what is happening. You will be able to hear the cries and screams of the children All of the cops did nothing while that hallway was full of children screaming. And dying. This is going to get worse when the unedited version gains traction. |
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I'll never understand this whole situation because after seeing the three ballistic shields and when a charge did take place they weren't even in front. If you're scared of getting shot, and who wouldn't be, then hide behind a shield and go in. The whole thing didn't make sense.
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Quoted: I know of a recent State Patrol aviation slot here were they had three applications, two with zero flight experience and one CFI. The local PD rotary takes officers and sends them to flight school. View Quote Most of our pilots are guys that come out of the military (typically Army) with helicopter experience. Each time that pool dries up the unit will do an "information" session about applying but most dudes drop the idea when they see that they have to get their license on their own and foot the bill. |
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Dunno how you could stand there playing on your phone hearing gunshots, knowing each gunshot was a whimpering kid getting their face blown off. I couldn’t live with myself. Given their level of cowardice, it’s no surprise that none of them have taken the honorable way out with their service weapons.
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Quoted: Trucker hat BORTAC guy arrives at 12:47:02 on the counter. Luckily he slips in behind stethoscope hall-monitor guy when his back was turned, and is able to work his way up to the front. He spends about 2 min talking to other Boarder Patrol guys and getting situated with what's going on. At 12:49:20 he decides it's Fo-Time and makes his move to the door. They make entry at 12:50:01 View Quote Dude really is a hero. In the main thread, I asked if there was any info whether the breach was initiated within minutes of BORTAC guy's arrival, with him showing up, being apprised of the situation and immediately organizing the breach. Looks like that's exactly what happened. Hats off to him. In the main thread, it was also mentioned (by someone who's worked with them?) that active BORTAC agents generally don't reveal their IDs. This guy obviously DGAF about the publicity of being hailed a 'hero'. "Just did what needed to be done" type. This guy deserves a $XXX,XXX .gov commission to tour DPSs around the country conducting AS training and seminars on mindset. |
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Quoted: I'm sure its different due to where I work, but we dont really see the "no other option" applicants here. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: And to make matters worse, for a seemingly majority of them it was not a ‘calling to serve the community’ it was a last resort career path. Much like the teaching profession. I'm sure its different due to where I work, but we dont really see the "no other option" applicants here. It’s been common place from what I’ve seen where I’ve worked & lived. Even know someone who lived with his parents working retail until he was in his late 20’s that got on with the NCHP. |
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Quoted: For all the saber rattling going on by the "professionals" here that would've done it better-- I'm not convinced this scenario would've happened ANY differently no matter where it occurred. I think the only difference in the future will be the direction which the cops are pointing their weapons when the next incident happens. Enough parents have seen what happened in Uvalde--I don't think the next department will get the peaceful response this one has. View Quote ![]() |
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Quoted: Dude really is a hero. In the main thread, I asked if there was any info whether the breach was initiated within minutes of BORTAC guy's arrival, with him showing up, being apprised of the situation and immediately organizing the breach. Looks like that's exactly what happened. Hats off to him. In the main thread, it was also mentioned (by someone who's worked with them?) that active BORTAC agents generally don't reveal their IDs. This guy obviously DGAF about the publicity of being hailed a 'hero'. "Just did what needed to be done" type. This guy deserves a $XXX,XXX .gov commission to tour DPSs around the country conducting AS training and seminars on mindset. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Trucker hat BORTAC guy arrives at 12:47:02 on the counter. Luckily he slips in behind stethoscope hall-monitor guy when his back was turned, and is able to work his way up to the front. He spends about 2 min talking to other Boarder Patrol guys and getting situated with what's going on. At 12:49:20 he decides it's Fo-Time and makes his move to the door. They make entry at 12:50:01 Dude really is a hero. In the main thread, I asked if there was any info whether the breach was initiated within minutes of BORTAC guy's arrival, with him showing up, being apprised of the situation and immediately organizing the breach. Looks like that's exactly what happened. Hats off to him. In the main thread, it was also mentioned (by someone who's worked with them?) that active BORTAC agents generally don't reveal their IDs. This guy obviously DGAF about the publicity of being hailed a 'hero'. "Just did what needed to be done" type. This guy deserves a $XXX,XXX .gov commission to tour DPSs around the country conducting AS training and seminars on mindset. You know what sucks? Someone like that, I bet they feel horrible that they weren’t able to get in that classroom sooner. I bet he has a lot of guilt with that, because good people always wish they’d have done more, which is why they’re good people in the first place. Meanwhile the fucks that fingerfucked each others’ assholes in the hallway for 77 minutes probably don’t miss a wink of sleep over it. |
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Quoted: OK, I'm not going to make a new thread. But, prepare yourself. There is an unedited version of the video out. In that version you can hear what is happening. You will be able to hear the cries and screams of the children All of the cops did nothing while that hallway was full of children screaming. And dying. This is going to get worse when the unedited version gains traction. View Quote If you have it, post it up. |
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Quoted: For all the saber rattling going on by the "professionals" here that would've done it better-- I'm not convinced this scenario would've happened ANY differently no matter where it occurred. I think the only difference in the future will be the direction which the cops are pointing their weapons when the next incident happens. Enough parents have seen what happened in Uvalde--I don't think the next department will get the peaceful response this one has. View Quote Uh.... it's been handled better a bunch of times. Cops actually have a pretty good track record with this sort of thing. |
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Quoted: Those kids were dead in that first 2.5 minutes he started shooting into the classrooms. Major failure because it took an hour to stop the threat. Its your duty as a civilian in your community to know who your neighbors are. When everyone communicates you have the ability to react and protect. View Quote I don't know WTF you're going on about knowing your neighbors here, but it seems like an attempt to lessen the outrage at the failure to act. I apologize if that's not the case. |
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Quoted: OK, I'm not going to make a new thread. But, prepare yourself. There is an unedited version of the video out. In that version you can hear what is happening. You will be able to hear the cries and screams of the children All of the cops did nothing while that hallway was full of children screaming. And dying. This is going to get worse when the unedited version gains traction. View Quote Is it the hour 22 minute version with sound posted on page 2 of this thread? |
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Quoted: For all the saber rattling going on by the "professionals" here that would've done it better-- I'm not convinced this scenario would've happened ANY differently no matter where it occurred. I think the only difference in the future will be the direction which the cops are pointing their weapons when the next incident happens. Enough parents have seen what happened in Uvalde--I don't think the next department will get the peaceful response this one has. View Quote Simply due to the nature of this forum, lots of us have been in dangerous life or death situations against people that would do us harm. In .mil, LEO, or even civilian settings. A lot of us that are saying we would have handled it better have experience doing just that in similarly stressful situations. |
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Quoted: Yes, Parkland was similar, but this Uvalde video has sealed the deal. And we're living in a visual world. Not certain exactly what's going to shift, but this event will prove to be seismic. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: You'd think that, but Parkland was about that bad and that faded from memory quickly enough to allow this dogshit circus. So I dunno. But I hope you're right. Yes, Parkland was similar, but this Uvalde video has sealed the deal. And we're living in a visual world. Not certain exactly what's going to shift, but this event will prove to be seismic. Unfortunately, I predict the MSM spinning this into "Hillbilly small town cops came up short, so we need Fed cops on patrol in flyover country". ![]() |
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Quoted: You would think that after the population sees this video it would reinforce in the minds of the people of their need to CCW and the importance of the 2 Amendment. You would think that people would wake up to the fact that you have to be ready to defend yourself and family and not completely depend on the police to come to your rescue when time is of the essence. It is so heartbreaking and angering to watch the video knowing that little children are being slaughtered while police standby and do nothing. ![]() View Quote Totally! However, the cop who was held back (his daughter sadly did not make it), spouted that he wants 'gun controls' in their memorial march. |
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Quoted: Simply due to the nature of this forum, lots of us have been in dangerous life or death situations against people that would do us harm. In .mil, LEO, or even civilian settings. A lot of us that are saying we would have handled it better have experience doing just that in similarly stressful situations. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: For all the saber rattling going on by the "professionals" here that would've done it better-- I'm not convinced this scenario would've happened ANY differently no matter where it occurred. I think the only difference in the future will be the direction which the cops are pointing their weapons when the next incident happens. Enough parents have seen what happened in Uvalde--I don't think the next department will get the peaceful response this one has. Simply due to the nature of this forum, lots of us have been in dangerous life or death situations against people that would do us harm. In .mil, LEO, or even civilian settings. A lot of us that are saying we would have handled it better have experience doing just that in similarly stressful situations. ![]() |
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Quoted: What would you do? Seriously. You're now in charge of Texas DPS, or whatever Texan agency you want, circle January 2022. What do you do differently? What do you differently that would actually work? What is it in the hiring process you change? The training courses that are offered? The electoral voting of leadership of local agencies? I've been saying all along that "cowardice" isn't the explanation. It's the answer that everyone wants to hear, because it's easy and satisfies the righteous anger, and dovetails oh so nicely with the ragebait articles, and doesn't need any further analysis or worry. There was a clump of cowards in Texas that day, and let's go imprison/execute them all, and that makes the world a safe place again. Or maybe it's just that all cops are cowards, our tax dollars are wasted, and maybe those anarchists have a point and we should just give it a whirl, no? Texas DPS Director McGraw would like you to believe it was all the fault of a single man (who isn't the shooter, I might add). Is he right? The answers aren't simple. They aren't a matter of adding a new PowerPoint to the training doctrine. They can't be solved via legislation, or incarceration. Uvalde is just the latest in a long line of human violent conflict that shows that leadership in battle is a rare, precious resource that's impossible to mandate and incapable of artificial creation in a lab. Either it's there at the onset of the gunfight, or it's not. Honestly the video released yesterday doesn't really show anything new or groundbreaking. The shooter had time to fire over 100 rounds in the classroom before any officers entered the building. We see nothing of the officers outside in this video, though their coordinated entry suggests they staged way too long outside...we don't get to see how, and where. It's been said over and over again, but the majority of cops are not gunfighters. Their agencies give them a box or two of ammo a year, they aren't shooters, and they don't even know what they don't know. The endless critique of random SROs and patrol cops for not being DEVGRU utterly ignores that the average cop might get 24 hours of training..on a good year...across medical, legal, driving, firearms, ground fighting, computer systems, and equipment usage. To say nothing of the mandatory diversity, equity, and bullshit training. You can't get blood out of a stone. All of this means that when shit hits the fan, it takes some seriously commanding leadership to roll in, make a fast plan, and execute it with guys who aren't trained or equipped for a SWAT-level action. Particularly if they're spread across half a dozen different agencies. After Parkland, I said at my old agency that we would have done no better on average if it had happened in my AO instead of Parkland. After Parkland, the average patrol guy's view in my area was still "wait for backup, don't go in solo". I went off and wargamed with my SROs how best to ram school gates with my cruiser to come into the fight; most guys didn't even think about what they'd do. I'll just say this, the capstone of all the things no one here wants to hear: if you grabbed 100 random arfcommers, 90 of them would be the guys hanging at the bottom of the screen by the camera, weapon at the ready but unsure what to do or where to go. 8 or 9 guys would be the meds dude, directing people to the fight or making plans for the wounded. 1 or 2 of those 100 would actually be bumrushing that door and working triggers. That was true in Heraclitus's day back in good ol' 500 BC, and is still true today. Period. View Quote Just ... wow ... I don't recall the major event after Parkland (whatever was less than 25 yrs ago) but I do recall almost taking a perma-ban for an un-tempered response so will do better this time. The ONLY goal in this situation is to give evil a different target than helpless children. When kids are dying, I'll take a mall cop 3min into it vs. DEVGRU who happens to be training 30min away. There is no 'good plan' when evil does sht like this. None. So either nut up and go stand in front of it or get out of the fkin way so better men than you can do it. What to do differently? Give evil a different target so it stops killing helpless children. Whay is the training? Give evil a different target so it stops killing helpless children. What is the SOP? Give evil a different target so it stops killing helpless children. What are TTPs? Give evil a different target so it stops killing helpless children. What do we expect of all men? Give evil a different target so it stops killing helpless children. What do we pay cops to do if necessary? Give evil a different target so it stops killing helpless children. What should everyone old, young, rich, poor, straight, gay, jew, gentile expect of every other American Citizen? Give evil a different target so it stops killing helpless children. And if you are unwilling or unable to do this then get the fk out of the way for anyone who will/can. Anyone who reads this and doesn't understand it is neither my countryman nor welcome here. |
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Quoted: Just ... wow ... I don't recall the major event after Parkland (whatever was less than 25 yrs ago) but I do recall almost taking a perma-ban for an un-tempered response so will do better this time. The ONLY goal in this situation is to give evil a different target than helpless children. When kids are dying, I'll take a mall cop 3min into it vs. DEVGRU who happens to be training 30min away. There is no 'good plan' when evil does sht like this. None. So either nut up and go stand in front of it or get out of the fkin way so better men than you can do it. What to do differently? Give evil a different target so it stops killing helpless children. Whay is the training? Give evil a different target so it stops killing helpless children. What is the SOP? Give evil a different target so it stops killing helpless children. What are TTPs? Give evil a different target so it stops killing helpless children. What do we expect of all men? Give evil a different target so it stops killing helpless children. What do we pay cops to do if necessary? Give evil a different target so it stops killing helpless children. What should everyone old, young, rich, poor, straight, gay, jew, gentile expect of every other American Citizen? Give evil a different target so it stops killing helpless children. And if you are unwilling or unable to do this then get the fk out of the way for anyone who will/can. Anyone who reads this and doesn't understand it is neither my countryman nor welcome here. View Quote ^^^^^^ THIS RIGHT HERE^^^^^^^ |
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Quoted: What would you do? Seriously. You're now in charge of Texas DPS, or whatever Texan agency you want, circle January 2022. What do you do differently? What do you differently that would actually work? What is it in the hiring process you change? The training courses that are offered? The electoral voting of leadership of local agencies? I've been saying all along that "cowardice" isn't the explanation. It's the answer that everyone wants to hear, because it's easy and satisfies the righteous anger, and dovetails oh so nicely with the ragebait articles, and doesn't need any further analysis or worry. There was a clump of cowards in Texas that day, and let's go imprison/execute them all, and that makes the world a safe place again. Or maybe it's just that all cops are cowards, our tax dollars are wasted, and maybe those anarchists have a point and we should just give it a whirl, no? Texas DPS Director McGraw would like you to believe it was all the fault of a single man (who isn't the shooter, I might add). Is he right? The answers aren't simple. They aren't a matter of adding a new PowerPoint to the training doctrine. They can't be solved via legislation, or incarceration. Uvalde is just the latest in a long line of human violent conflict that shows that leadership in battle is a rare, precious resource that's impossible to mandate and incapable of artificial creation in a lab. Either it's there at the onset of the gunfight, or it's not. Honestly the video released yesterday doesn't really show anything new or groundbreaking. The shooter had time to fire over 100 rounds in the classroom before any officers entered the building. We see nothing of the officers outside in this video, though their coordinated entry suggests they staged way too long outside...we don't get to see how, and where. It's been said over and over again, but the majority of cops are not gunfighters. Their agencies give them a box or two of ammo a year, they aren't shooters, and they don't even know what they don't know. The endless critique of random SROs and patrol cops for not being DEVGRU utterly ignores that the average cop might get 24 hours of training..on a good year...across medical, legal, driving, firearms, ground fighting, computer systems, and equipment usage. To say nothing of the mandatory diversity, equity, and bullshit training. You can't get blood out of a stone. All of this means that when shit hits the fan, it takes some seriously commanding leadership to roll in, make a fast plan, and execute it with guys who aren't trained or equipped for a SWAT-level action. Particularly if they're spread across half a dozen different agencies. After Parkland, I said at my old agency that we would have done no better on average if it had happened in my AO instead of Parkland. After Parkland, the average patrol guy's view in my area was still "wait for backup, don't go in solo". I went off and wargamed with my SROs how best to ram school gates with my cruiser to come into the fight; most guys didn't even think about what they'd do. I'll just say this, the capstone of all the things no one here wants to hear: if you grabbed 100 random arfcommers, 90 of them would be the guys hanging at the bottom of the screen by the camera, weapon at the ready but unsure what to do or where to go. 8 or 9 guys would be the meds dude, directing people to the fight or making plans for the wounded. 1 or 2 of those 100 would actually be bumrushing that door and working triggers. That was true in Heraclitus's day back in good ol' 500 BC, and is still true today. Period. View Quote @WesJanson I agree with you on several of your points. My problem after watching the video is that we want more cops to be the kind of guys that storm the door. These guys standing around with punisher logos on their phones became cops for the wrong reasons. They’re tough as hell when it comes to pulling over someone compliant or arresting drunks. I think this is where a lot of law enforcement is today. A lot of it is guys that do it because it’s cool. You get some gear, get to strut around and tell people what to do but when the shit hits the fan they’re sitting on their asses using hand sanitizer. Someone posted earlier asking if our grandfathers would’ve stood around while this happened. I don’t think they would’ve. I know cops that are real men, the kind of guys that storm doors with bad guys behind them. One of them was a marine on the ground during the Blackhawk down ordeal that has served his country and now serves his community. We don’t need the guys that we’re picked on in school and became a cop so they can be the big guy, we need the guy that beat the hell out of the bully in high school for picking on the little kids. America is getting really short on real men. It’s showing in every part of society. I couldn’t believe what I was seeing watching the cop who’s daughter was in the classroom. If my kid was in there I’d be on that door so fast it’d make you dick shrink up and I may die trying to get to her but she’s my sole purpose on this earth. That’s where a lot of this anger is coming from. Men who have kids that age. It makes me literally want to throw up knowing that every round going off in the classroom is someone’s kid getting shot and knowing that there were people standing outside the door with guns that are paid to protect them and ran away in terror. It doesn’t take a great leader or training or more boxes of ammo for four or five guys, a long gun and several pistols to kill an 18 year old kid with an AR. It takes real men that are willing to die to protect someone else’s child. If this first few guys had gone in id venture to say that they’d have had a damn good chance of killing him. Some of those cops would’ve most certainly died but they’d be remembered as heroes. |
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Quoted: That’s hard to watch, but not due to any gore. When you sign up for the service, there is at least an inkling that may ultimately lead to your injury or death, even I peace time. Has to be hard to be a cop, but damn, anyone in that line of work should have come to peace with possibilities like this and what needs done. I see some lack of leadership caused this claims, but this is one of those times leadership doesn’t need to come from the top. It takes someone with the balls to take the fight to evil like we saw here at the end. My outlook on certain things has changed since my youngest is out of high school, but fuck, sign me up for cannon fodder first in the stack if this goes down in my ao. My kids are my greatest treasure, I couldn’t imagine the grief for these families. View Quote @Scooter86 WELL SAID!!!!!! |
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Quoted: Not stand there with body armor and a rifle and let that shit go down. This is not a difficult problem to solve. Dangerous, yes, but not difficult. You find the guy doing the killing and you kill him. ...which, thankfully, when someone with a goddamn spine showed up he proceeded to do precisely that. In Parkland, unarmed JROTC cadets and an unarmed football coach put themselves between the shooter and innocent people in an attempt to save lives. They had no duty to do this. They had sworn no oath, had no body armor, no backup, and no weapons...but they figured out what the right thing to do was even without any training and did whatever they could. Let's not pretend that this gaggle of shitheads was just insufficiently trained. I've been involved in training for 20+ years now. Police, in the main, don't fucking train beyond department minimums. And for 20 years I've heard police from all over the place bleat and whine about how training should be provided and they should be paid to do it on department time and not lose any of their own time because reasons. Meanwhile every other profession in the goddamn country involves people investing their own time and their own money in learning or improving skills that are useful in their employment. If someone works in IT, medicine, construction, law, accountancy, or any host of other professional tracks in this country, they spend hours outside of the office learning or honing skills they use on the job. They take time away from their lives and their families to get it done because that's what it takes. Even the fucking useless HR drones do that shit on their own time and their own dime. If you are in a job that doesn't involve asking if you want fries with that, you are going to have to spend your own time and your own money improving your skills just to keep up. That's the reality of the working world. But cops? No, somehow cops are uniquely exempt from the requirement damn near everyone else in society has to invest in their own capability. You're not wrong that any number of departments in this country would fail just as spectacularly as Uvalde's cowards did. But that's because those departments have a toxic leadership culture full of cowards. Which means they produce a department full of toxic cowards who will fail like this. Partly that's on the voters for not holding that sort of leadership accountable...but whenever he voters do make any attempt then the shitbags wrap themselves in the flag and claim their heroes to avoid any accountability. ...just like the Uvalde cowards have done here. The bottom line is that policing in the United States is islands of competence, professionalism, and courage under continuous assault by tidal waves of mediocrity and cowardice. But that doesn't excuse the failure of individuals who are swimming in that shit to do better, especially when it's this fucking obvious. One of the reasons there's so much suck is because so much of it gets wrapped in the flag and excused because CoPz!!! Motherfuckers running around with TBL stickers and TBL catchphrases jerking each other off about brotherhood, heroism, and other stupid lies. How much brotherhood is involved in holding an officer back while his wife is literally bleeding to death a few feet away? Zilch. The first step to fixing the problem is acknowledging it. Lack of training isn't the core problem. Lack of character is. A friend of mine has worked two active shooter calls in the last couple of weeks. In each case he was furthest away, but first on the scene. In each case he grabbed a shotgun and went in hard to find the problem. All by himself. He's the only one on his department that has sought out training outside of what his department provides. His character drove him to be better. Not the other way around. View Quote I know we have an 'ignore' button - but this guy needs a 'follow' option |
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Quoted: Those kids were dead in that first 2.5 minutes he started shooting into the classrooms. Major failure because it took an hour to stop the threat. Its your duty as a civilian in your community to know who your neighbors are. When everyone communicates you have the ability to react and protect. View Quote Proven false. Nice try |
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Quoted: OK, I'm not going to make a new thread. But, prepare yourself. There is an unedited version of the video out. In that version you can hear what is happening. You will be able to hear the cries and screams of the children All of the cops did nothing while that hallway was full of children screaming. And dying. This is going to get worse when the unedited version gains traction. View Quote ![]() |
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This may get traction ,Local radio here covering news is hosted by a centerist, supported by a super liberal
Both are talking about the video saying they feel there is at least grounds for all on site to be fired and even some to be criminally liable. For it to be 100% they are cowards and those types of statements that’s significant Even talked about hand sanitizer guy and how detached he was |
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Quoted: Similar to Vegas, I see a lot of standing around and not a lot of action. ![]() View Quote To be clear: I completely believe this was another fine example of the police putting officer safety above duty. |
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Quoted: Quoted: OK, I'm not going to make a new thread. But, prepare yourself. There is an unedited version of the video out. In that version you can hear what is happening. You will be able to hear the cries and screams of the children All of the cops did nothing while that hallway was full of children screaming. And dying. This is going to get worse when the unedited version gains traction. ![]() I can handle a lot- nothing have I shied away from But I don’t think I can listen to the children screaming Listen I’ve never been in war or a shoot out but I can tell you there is no way I can hear that and not try to help. |
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Quoted: If its the video I saw it doesnt show anything graphic View Quote They had the decency to edit out all of the audible stuff that cannot be stomached. Within 3 minutes there were 6 armed officers in the hallway. Sadly, much or most of the murdering happened in those three minutes. No doubt that lives would have been saved had they just made entry and took him down. |
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Quoted: This is the LEO who's wife was shot in the classroom. She's the one who texted him and why he checked one of his phones. Though he has two phones, one in the left pocket and one on the right. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: This is the LEO who's wife was shot in the classroom. She's the one who texted him and why he checked one of his phones. Though he has two phones, one in the left pocket and one on the right. Not so much punisher... it turns out. |
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Quoted: Those kids were dead in that first 2.5 minutes he started shooting into the classrooms. Major failure because it took an hour to stop the threat. Its your duty as a civilian in your community to know who your neighbors are. When everyone communicates you have the ability to react and protect. View Quote Some of them bled out later. Some of them cried out for help when the cops were in the hallway and the POS murderer shot them again. |
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Quoted: Fuck be upon those first two with AR's that turned and ran back down the corridor like a couple of babies. The perp could've shot them in the back, they weren't even retreating facing the threat. Also cop on the right in tears being held back by a couple of others. Hand sanitizer, phone in hand. Didn't see the BORTAC guy that first came out as having taken the perp out - short sleeve white/blue collar shirt, truckers cap. (ETA: I watched the shorter version Chokey linked to) https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FTy2eNXXEAEtPB9?format=png&name=small View Quote He's the one that got grazed on the head, right? Maybe he came through the door on the opposite end of that hallway? |
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