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All that remains of "macho" culture is narcissistic peacocking.

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The only police I know of who pay for their own off duty training are cops who are into guns already. Almost no cop who isn't into guns goes to a gun class on their own dime, I think I met two who did.

I've never heard of a police officer paying for anything but a gun class

I guess I should backpedal, there are police officers who attend college for degrees like masters in "public administration" but the only technical training I have heard of is cops who are into shooting or karate going to classes similar to their non work interest in firearms or martial arts. I've never heard of a cop who was a bad driver paying to go to a driving school

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You would think that after the population sees this video it would reinforce in the minds of the people of their need to CCW and
the importance of the 2 Amendment.
You would think that people would wake up to the fact that you have to be ready to defend yourself and family and not
completely depend on the police to come to your rescue when time is of the essence.
It is so heartbreaking and angering to watch the video knowing that little children are being slaughtered while police standby and do nothing.

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Video confirmation that not one man was present prior to border guy.

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The only police I know of who pay for their own off duty training are cops who are into guns already. Almost no cop who isn't into guns goes to a gun class on their own dime, I think I met two who did.

I've never heard of a police officer paying for anything but a gun class

I guess I should backpedal, there are police officers who attend college for degrees like masters in "public administration" but the only technical training I have heard of is cops who are into shooting or karate going to classes similar to their non work interest in firearms or martial arts. I've never heard of a cop who was a bad driver paying to go to a driving school

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Im not a cop, was never in the military, i am an auto mechanic.   I have lots of friends that were/are cops and former military, i have done some training, now do i consider myself a tier one operator?   No.   If this happened at my kids school, yeah i would have tries to be the first one there, first objective - neutralize the shooter with extreme prejudice.   No way i could stand there and listen to kids dieing.   All of those officers that stood there, ALL OF THEM, need to be ostracized by their communities, they all should be brought up on charges.  Even if it wasnt my kids, i still could not live with myself if i was one of those cowardly, no balls, no spine, weaklings.    Could i have done better?     I dont know but i would not have waited for over an hour.

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And to make matters worse, for a seemingly majority of them it was not a ‘calling to serve the community’ it was a last resort career path.  Much like the teaching profession.

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Im not a cop, was never in the military, i am an auto mechanic.   I have lots of friends that were/are cops and former military, i have done some training, now do i consider myself a tier one operator?   No.   If this happened at my kids school, yeah i would have tries to be the first one there, first objective - neutralize the shooter with extreme prejudice.   No way i could stand there and listen to kids dieing.   All of those officers that stood there, ALL OF THEM, need to be ostracized by their communities, they all should be brought up on charges.  Even if it wasnt my kids, i still could not live with myself if i was one of those cowardly, no balls, no spine, weaklings.    Could i have done better?     I dont know but i would not have waited for over an hour.

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I know of a recent State Patrol aviation slot here were they had three applications, two with zero flight experience and one CFI.  The local PD rotary takes officers and sends them to flight school.

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Trucker hat BORTAC guy arrives at 12:47:02 on the counter. Luckily he slips in behind stethoscope hall-monitor guy when his back was turned, and is able to work his way up to the front. He spends about 2 min talking to other Boarder Patrol guys and getting situated with what's going on. At 12:49:20 he decides it's Fo-Time and makes his move to the door. They make entry at 12:50:01

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For all the saber rattling going on by the "professionals" here that would've done it better-- I'm not convinced this scenario would've happened ANY differently no matter where it occurred.

I think the only difference in the future will be the direction which the cops are pointing their weapons when the next incident happens. Enough parents have seen what happened in Uvalde--I don't think the next department will get the peaceful response this one has.

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OK, I'm not going to make a new thread. But, prepare yourself.
There is an unedited version of the video out.
In that version you can hear what is happening.
You will be able to hear the cries and screams of the children
All of the cops did nothing while that hallway was full of children screaming. And dying.

This is going to get worse when the unedited version gains traction.

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At least the one officer got his hands sanitized at 57 minutes into it.

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For all the saber rattling going on by the "professionals" here that would've done it better-- I'm not convinced this scenario would've happened ANY differently no matter where it occurred.

I think the only difference in the future will be the direction which the cops are pointing their weapons when the next incident happens. Enough parents have seen what happened in Uvalde--I don't think the next department will get the peaceful response this one has.

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Those kids were dead in that first 2.5 minutes he started shooting into the classrooms. Major failure because it took an hour to stop the threat. Its your duty as a civilian in your community to know who your neighbors are. When everyone communicates you have the ability to react and protect.

Quoted:
OK, I'm not going to make a new thread. But, prepare yourself.
There is an unedited version of the video out.
In that version you can hear what is happening.
You will be able to hear the cries and screams of the children
All of the cops did nothing while that hallway was full of children screaming. And dying.

This is going to get worse when the unedited version gains traction.

Quoted:
For all the saber rattling going on by the "professionals" here that would've done it better-- I'm not convinced this scenario would've happened ANY differently no matter where it occurred.

I think the only difference in the future will be the direction which the cops are pointing their weapons when the next incident happens. Enough parents have seen what happened in Uvalde--I don't think the next department will get the peaceful response this one has.

Quoted:
You would think that after the population sees this video it would reinforce in the minds of the people of their need to CCW and
the importance of the 2 Amendment.
You would think that people would wake up to the fact that you have to be ready to defend yourself and family and not
completely depend on the police to come to your rescue when time is of the essence.
It is so heartbreaking and angering to watch the video knowing that little children are being slaughtered while police standby and do nothing.

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What would you do?

Seriously. You're now in charge of Texas DPS, or whatever Texan agency you want, circle January 2022. What do you do differently? What do you differently that would actually work? What is it in the hiring process you change? The training courses that are offered? The electoral voting of leadership of local agencies?

I've been saying all along that "cowardice" isn't the explanation. It's the answer that everyone wants to hear, because it's easy and satisfies the righteous anger, and dovetails oh so nicely with the ragebait articles, and doesn't need any further analysis or worry. There was a clump of cowards in Texas that day, and let's go imprison/execute them all, and that makes the world a safe place again. Or maybe it's just that all cops are cowards, our tax dollars are wasted, and maybe those anarchists have a point and we should just give it a whirl, no? Texas DPS Director McGraw would like you to believe it was all the fault of a single man (who isn't the shooter, I might add). Is he right?

The answers aren't simple. They aren't a matter of adding a new PowerPoint to the training doctrine. They can't be solved via legislation, or incarceration. Uvalde is just the latest in a long line of human violent conflict that shows that leadership in battle is a rare, precious resource that's impossible to mandate and incapable of artificial creation in a lab. Either it's there at the onset of the gunfight, or it's not.

Honestly the video released yesterday doesn't really show anything new or groundbreaking. The shooter had time to fire over 100 rounds in the classroom before any officers entered the building. We see nothing of the officers outside in this video, though their coordinated entry suggests they staged way too long outside...we don't get to see how, and where.

It's been said over and over again, but the majority of cops are not gunfighters. Their agencies give them a box or two of ammo a year, they aren't shooters, and they don't even know what they don't know. The endless critique of random SROs and patrol cops for not being DEVGRU utterly ignores that the average cop might get 24 hours of training..on a good year...across medical, legal, driving, firearms, ground fighting, computer systems, and equipment usage. To say nothing of the mandatory diversity, equity, and bullshit training. You can't get blood out of a stone. All of this means that when shit hits the fan, it takes some seriously commanding leadership to roll in, make a fast plan, and execute it with guys who aren't trained or equipped for a SWAT-level action. Particularly if they're spread across half a dozen different agencies.

After Parkland, I said at my old agency that we would have done no better on average if it had happened in my AO instead of Parkland. After Parkland, the average patrol guy's view in my area was still "wait for backup, don't go in solo". I went off and wargamed with my SROs how best to ram school gates with my cruiser to come into the fight; most guys didn't even think about what they'd do.

I'll just say this, the capstone of all the things no one here wants to hear: if you grabbed 100 random arfcommers, 90 of them would be the guys hanging at the bottom of the screen by the camera, weapon at the ready but unsure what to do or where to go. 8 or 9 guys would be the meds dude, directing people to the fight or making plans for the wounded. 1 or 2 of those 100 would actually be bumrushing that door and working triggers. That was true in Heraclitus's day back in good ol' 500 BC, and is still true today. Period.

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Just ... wow ...

I don't recall the major event after Parkland (whatever was less than 25 yrs ago) but I do recall almost taking a perma-ban for an un-tempered response so will do better this time.

The ONLY goal in this situation is to give evil a different target than helpless children.

When kids are dying, I'll take a mall cop 3min into it vs. DEVGRU who happens to be training 30min away.

There is no 'good plan' when evil does sht like this. None. So either nut up and go stand in front of it or get out of the fkin way so better men than you can do it.

What to do differently? Give evil a different target so it stops killing helpless children.

Whay is the training? Give evil a different target so it stops killing helpless children.

What is the SOP? Give evil a different target so it stops killing helpless children.

What are TTPs? Give evil a different target so it stops killing helpless children.

What do we expect of all men? Give evil a different target so it stops killing helpless children.

What do we pay cops to do if necessary? Give evil a different target so it stops killing helpless children.

What should everyone old, young, rich, poor, straight, gay, jew, gentile expect of every other American Citizen? Give evil a different target so it stops killing helpless children. And if you are unwilling or unable to do this then get the fk out of the way for anyone who will/can.

Anyone who reads this and doesn't understand it is neither my countryman nor welcome here.

Quoted:


What would you do?

Seriously. You're now in charge of Texas DPS, or whatever Texan agency you want, circle January 2022. What do you do differently? What do you differently that would actually work? What is it in the hiring process you change? The training courses that are offered? The electoral voting of leadership of local agencies?

I've been saying all along that "cowardice" isn't the explanation. It's the answer that everyone wants to hear, because it's easy and satisfies the righteous anger, and dovetails oh so nicely with the ragebait articles, and doesn't need any further analysis or worry. There was a clump of cowards in Texas that day, and let's go imprison/execute them all, and that makes the world a safe place again. Or maybe it's just that all cops are cowards, our tax dollars are wasted, and maybe those anarchists have a point and we should just give it a whirl, no? Texas DPS Director McGraw would like you to believe it was all the fault of a single man (who isn't the shooter, I might add). Is he right?

The answers aren't simple. They aren't a matter of adding a new PowerPoint to the training doctrine. They can't be solved via legislation, or incarceration. Uvalde is just the latest in a long line of human violent conflict that shows that leadership in battle is a rare, precious resource that's impossible to mandate and incapable of artificial creation in a lab. Either it's there at the onset of the gunfight, or it's not.

Honestly the video released yesterday doesn't really show anything new or groundbreaking. The shooter had time to fire over 100 rounds in the classroom before any officers entered the building. We see nothing of the officers outside in this video, though their coordinated entry suggests they staged way too long outside...we don't get to see how, and where.

It's been said over and over again, but the majority of cops are not gunfighters. Their agencies give them a box or two of ammo a year, they aren't shooters, and they don't even know what they don't know. The endless critique of random SROs and patrol cops for not being DEVGRU utterly ignores that the average cop might get 24 hours of training..on a good year...across medical, legal, driving, firearms, ground fighting, computer systems, and equipment usage. To say nothing of the mandatory diversity, equity, and bullshit training. You can't get blood out of a stone. All of this means that when shit hits the fan, it takes some seriously commanding leadership to roll in, make a fast plan, and execute it with guys who aren't trained or equipped for a SWAT-level action. Particularly if they're spread across half a dozen different agencies.

After Parkland, I said at my old agency that we would have done no better on average if it had happened in my AO instead of Parkland. After Parkland, the average patrol guy's view in my area was still "wait for backup, don't go in solo". I went off and wargamed with my SROs how best to ram school gates with my cruiser to come into the fight; most guys didn't even think about what they'd do.

I'll just say this, the capstone of all the things no one here wants to hear: if you grabbed 100 random arfcommers, 90 of them would be the guys hanging at the bottom of the screen by the camera, weapon at the ready but unsure what to do or where to go. 8 or 9 guys would be the meds dude, directing people to the fight or making plans for the wounded. 1 or 2 of those 100 would actually be bumrushing that door and working triggers. That was true in Heraclitus's day back in good ol' 500 BC, and is still true today. Period.

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That’s hard to watch, but not due to any gore.  When you sign up for the service, there is at least an inkling that may ultimately lead to your injury or death, even I peace time.  Has to be hard to be a cop, but damn, anyone in that line of work should have come to peace with possibilities like this and what needs done.  I see some lack of leadership caused this claims, but this is one of those times leadership doesn’t need to come from the top.  It takes someone with the balls to take the fight to evil like we saw here at the end.  My outlook on certain things has changed since my youngest is out of high school, but fuck, sign me up for cannon fodder first in the stack if this goes down in my ao.  My kids are my greatest treasure, I couldn’t imagine the grief for these families.

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Not stand there with body armor and a rifle and let that shit go down.

This is not a difficult problem to solve. Dangerous, yes, but not difficult. You find the guy doing the killing and you kill him.

...which, thankfully, when someone with a goddamn spine showed up he proceeded to do precisely that.

In Parkland, unarmed JROTC cadets and an unarmed football coach put themselves between the shooter and innocent people in an attempt to save lives. They had no duty to do this. They had sworn no oath, had no body armor, no backup, and no weapons...but they figured out what the right thing to do was even without any training and did whatever they could.

Let's not pretend that this gaggle of shitheads was just insufficiently trained.

I've been involved in training for 20+ years now. Police, in the main, don't fucking train beyond department minimums. And for 20 years I've heard police from all over the place bleat and whine about how training should be provided and they should be paid to do it on department time and not lose any of their own time because reasons. Meanwhile every other profession in the goddamn country involves people investing their own time and their own money in learning or improving skills that are useful in their employment. If someone works in IT, medicine, construction, law, accountancy, or any host of other professional tracks in this country, they spend hours outside of the office learning or honing skills they use on the job. They take time away from their lives and their families to get it done because that's what it takes. Even the fucking useless HR drones do that shit on their own time and their own dime. If you are in a job that doesn't involve asking if you want fries with that, you are going to have to spend your own time and your own money improving your skills just to keep up. That's the reality of the working world.

But cops? No, somehow cops are uniquely exempt from the requirement damn near everyone else in society has to invest in their own capability.

You're not wrong that any number of departments in this country would fail just as spectacularly as Uvalde's cowards did. But that's because those departments have a toxic leadership culture full of cowards. Which means they produce a department full of toxic cowards who will fail like this. Partly that's on the voters for not holding that sort of leadership accountable...but whenever he voters do make any attempt then the shitbags wrap themselves in the flag and claim their heroes to avoid any accountability.

...just like the Uvalde cowards have done here.

The bottom line is that policing in the United States is islands of competence, professionalism, and courage under continuous assault by tidal waves of mediocrity and cowardice. But that doesn't excuse the failure of individuals who are swimming in that shit to do better, especially when it's this fucking obvious.

One of the reasons there's so much suck is because so much of it gets wrapped in the flag and excused because CoPz!!! Motherfuckers running around with TBL stickers and TBL catchphrases jerking each other off about brotherhood, heroism, and other stupid lies.

How much brotherhood is involved in holding an officer back while his wife is literally bleeding to death a few feet away? Zilch.

The first step to fixing the problem is acknowledging it.

Lack of training isn't the core problem.

Lack of character is.

A friend of mine has worked two active shooter calls in the last couple of weeks. In each case he was furthest away, but first on the scene. In each case he grabbed a shotgun and went in hard to find the problem. All by himself. He's the only one on his department that has sought out training outside of what his department provides.

His character drove him to be better. Not the other way around.

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Those kids were dead in that first 2.5 minutes he started shooting into the classrooms. Major failure because it took an hour to stop the threat. Its your duty as a civilian in your community to know who your neighbors are. When everyone communicates you have the ability to react and protect.

Quoted:
OK, I'm not going to make a new thread. But, prepare yourself.
There is an unedited version of the video out.
In that version you can hear what is happening.
You will be able to hear the cries and screams of the children
All of the cops did nothing while that hallway was full of children screaming. And dying.

This is going to get worse when the unedited version gains traction.

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Similar to Vegas, I see a lot of standing around and not a lot of action.

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If its the video I saw it doesnt show anything graphic

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Yep, give the parents some armor and rifles. I promise they would fuck shit up in the most barbaric fashion known to man.

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Those kids were dead in that first 2.5 minutes he started shooting into the classrooms. Major failure because it took an hour to stop the threat. Its your duty as a civilian in your community to know who your neighbors are. When everyone communicates you have the ability to react and protect.

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I just heard my agency is looking for officers to be on a committee to discuss fingernail polish standards. I shit you not.

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Fuck be upon those first two with AR's that turned and ran back down the corridor like a couple of babies.  The perp could've shot them in the back, they weren't even retreating facing the threat.

Also cop on the right in tears being held back by a couple of others.

Hand sanitizer, phone in hand.

Didn't see the BORTAC guy that first came out as having taken the perp out - short sleeve white/blue collar shirt, truckers cap.

(ETA: I watched the shorter version Chokey linked to)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FTy2eNXXEAEtPB9?format=png&name=small