You have to be the first person I've ever heard in my life claim that HR personnel go out and "train" on their own time and dime.

Seriously, not a single person I know who works in any of those professions engages in self-paid training assignments. Doctors with their own practices, going to a conference? Sure, I know some who do, once or twice a year (and make it an office junket as a business expense write-off). And many who don't. Construction guys going out on their weekend to another job site to go learn new techniques from a different crew? I'm sure someone, somewhere has done so sometime in the past, but you're outright delusional if you think the majority of people make it a point to go on their off time and and spend their own money training for their jobs.

I'll say it again: you're delusional if you think the majority of people in *any* profession are out spending their off time and their personal money signing up for training classes on their own. There are a few, here and there, but they are the exact same type of outliers as the BORTAC guysI. Teachers. Nurses. Truck drivers. Tile-setters. A/C repairmen. Firefighters. Bankers. Line cooks. In any of those fields, you *might* find 5% of workers who have gone out and taken a class on their own in the past year or two. Maybe.



You're not wrong, but you're still missing the fundamental reason for the *why*.

The point that I made, that no one likes, is that the character you describe is vanishingly rare. The character to run into incoming rifle fire without hesitation. Where do you propose to find those people like your friend, in sufficient quantities to cover every town in the country? Agencies don't get to raise kids from birth to have good character, they get to hire the few who show up anymore and are crazy enough to put a uniform on and get in a car. Where do agencies get better people from?

No one here has yet to respond as to how they suggest you fill agencies with only the right characters. I keep saying it, and everyone just insults me, makes a TBL comment, or COCs themselves, but. Not. One. Poster. Has been able to explain how you hire sufficient numbers of officers who are Heraclitus's 1 in 100 warrior. One poster just says we should eliminate all law enforcement. I'm quite certain he won't find the resulting society afterwards any better, but at this point no one wants to confront the actual tough questions of human nature.

Real lessons?

* Average officers, confronted with a barricade and incoming gunfire, and a confusing tactical situation, tend to lose momentum and not know what to do.

* If leadership doesn't immediately appear and form a plan, everyone reverts to the lowest level of training: try to find cover and point a muzzle at a potential threat. Leadership can be anyone of any rank, who is willing and able to direct others around them, and be followed. There was at least one supervisor on scene at the beginning. He never appears to take any leadership role. This is the downside of promoting people into supervisory roles on seniority/lack of alternatives/favoritism/anything other than actual leadership talent.

* When multiple agencies arrive on scene, if an effective leader isn't there making plans, everyone loses momentum because they think the other agency has the ball. People tend to think problems are getting solved by others, and revert to waiting for those others to solve the problem.

* When minutes count, SWAT is hours away. Mindset in many places is "wait for SWAT, they'll save us!" That mindset breeds paralysis. Paralysis is death. Everyone in that hallway was told that at some point in their careers, probably hundreds of times, but it's still incredibly hard to overcome when directly experienced.

* We can't know, but I suspect strongly that if you grabbed some of the individual officers and threw them into the same situation, without backup of any kind, at least a couple of them would have moved forward on their own. The more people who show up on scene, the greater the momentum becomes to stand by and wait. I've seen it in my own experiences, from guys who literally ran right into gunfights and kicked ass, but when other situations got too big with too much brass, froze up and lost all initiative.

* The lack of rifle-rated armor, and familiarity with such, is a huge psychological hole in a situation like this. The shields in the hallway appear to be IIIA shields, which is to say, almost completely pointless to be there at all. If guys have shields they know can stop incoming rounds, they're way more willing to move into position to take those rounds. The majority of agencies do not issue shields to patrol officers (and offhand I've yet to find a single agency that issues rifle-rated shields to everyone, although ours is in the process of doing so).

* Throwing so many officers into that hallway was pointless. Had the shooter come out the doorway, the crossfire would have been disastrous, and likely taken out half the officers in the hall. It shows a complete lack of coordination on scene.

* Possession of a rifle does not make one a warrior. Everyone likes to associate the two together, but this is GD's least favorite truth: the weapon is merely a tool. The mindset to fight and die with it is something else entirely, that doesn't come bundled with any PSA Daily Deal.

That one I might not be able to watch.  

IIRC, she bled out and coded in the ambulance. 77 minutes. She'd still be alive if he'd/they'd gone in immediately.

Just a bunch of cowards LARPing in their costumes.

Everything you say is from the heart. And well and fine and true. And yet none of it makes a damn bit of difference in answering one simple question:

How do you prevent the next Uvalde?

@texashomeserver

Are you reading your own thread?

No one wants to be #1 through the door.  They all want to be the 40th guy though.  Tons of "hold back" guys in that group.  In fact maybe all but one or two.

.. and then they stood down for another 35 minutes, INCLUDING after MORE shots were heard at 12:21

Publicly punish the cowards who displayed depraved indifference and allowed people to die by stopping those who wanted to actually stop the shooter.

I'm also okay with perpetually shaming people that defend their cowardly behavior.

All of your asterisk assertions are spot on.  Absolutely nailed it.

The preamble on training in other professions not so much.

I've hesitated to post lest I lose my shit and my acct.

Do we have any members in the Uvalde area? Does anyone know the true 'climate' on the ground? Are those cops back out on patrol?

A man who has lost his kids or wife has not much more to lose and becomes a very dangerous man. Would not surprise me to see an ambush or two.

Imagine living next door to one of those cowards.

That video defies belief.

I’ve not paid attention to the stories posted. Last I seen of them was they were harassing the petite mother that broke free from them and went and saved her kids.

There is no way in hell I can listen to that here and now so if I heard it in real time I would either be dead by cop, dead by shooter or shooter would be dead. I honestly don't care who believes me.

Instead they chose to allow children to take those rounds.  Bunch of damn heroes.

We also need to start involuntarily committing fucked up kids and teens and young adults who do this kind of shit.  This fucker, the Parkland shooter, and the 4th of July parade shooter were ALL known fuckups.  Severely unstable.

One dude checks his phone, another dude takes time to use hand sanitizer....WTF?

And you're still here making excuses for cowardice. Fucking amazing. Like I said before,  you're either deluded or a straight up troll. FUCK those cowards who ran the wrong way and/or stood around while innocent children died. Like I told my wife when this first happened and we started getting rumors of what had happened, there are far worse things than death. People are wondering why none of these "heroes" have gone home and eaten a pistol. That's easy. NONE of them have any honor, and never did.

There is no link up in the first on scene training I’ve taken, it’s go get him now with sirens blaring on the way. Best case he kills himself before you get there.

FIFY

There are several lines of failure which need to be addressed:
- The complete failure by law enforcement in their execution which breached standards, leading to death
- The complete failure by the school to execute lockdown procedures which resulted in death
- Our mental health system is broken at its core

He was not holding the guy back. Watch the video at that point. The EMT helps him take the backpack off, before continuing down the hall.

First image you see the EMT holding the backpack as the guy takes it off, and the second image the EMT is holding the backpack and the guy is proceeding down the hall.

The closer one gets to the border, the less regular folks are carrying it seems. Most gun control bills come from these border counties. Uvalde is very close to the border.

Unless they’re in a union.

How many police departments are unionized?

Aimless sees the light!

I've been getting shit on and ignored endlessly in these threads for suggesting there *might* be a lesson here other than "19 random cowards showed up all in one place and failed". Because you're literally describing exactly what I've been pointing out: tactical leadership, and the lack thereof.

What GD really doesn't want to think about is that leadership is vanishingly rare in almost all walks of life. How many major companies are run by raving morons? How many flag officers *aren't* self-serving ass-kissing politicos? How many people drive by a car crash and don't stop?

The majority of people aren't leaders, they're followers. That's true in the military, in law enforcement, in a large company or on a small jobsite. It's true in GD as well, because GD is made up of an assortment of humans, with a self-selected bias towards interest in gun ownership. That's a truth that the average person here doesn't want to hear or confront. It's preferable to imagine superiority, to scoff at anyone who would suggest that they might fall into the same trap. "Those cops had all that equipment and training and failed", they say, "I don't have any of that and I know I would have done better! They must *all* have been cowards and suck!" Anyone who suggests otherwise is challenging that deeply-held self-image of reliance and strength...and thus the pushback.

Now, where do we go to get tactical leaders?

I saw that also, WTF, he's worried about germs while kids are being murdered down the hallway. They need to clean house, from the heads of the school, to all local authorities and politicians. I'm so glad the democraps are dumping billions into clean energies, and giving billions to Ukraine, invest the money into armed security for schools, hell, my rough high school had at least three cops patrolling inside, this was forty years ago, and times haven't gotten better.

@NCPatrolAR

Wondering about what you mentioned;

In many professions, there are incentives for accruing added skills, eg. one of my buddies in the field involving Computers, Software etc., each time he got certified for additional stuff like Cisco, network administration etc., he got a bump in pay and it opened up more avenues for advancement or more lucrative job offers.

Do any DPSs offer ANY kind of incentives for supplemental/additional training like that? I know someone mentioned a department that initially had a bonus for folks passing a physical standards eval/qual, until some fat fucks sued the department because it was 'unfair'.

Good eye. Yeah, he slipped past stethoscope hall monitor guy, and went up the front of the line at like 12:47....came back for a minute or two.....then at 12:50 ran up to a couple of guys kneeling in the hallway, then got into position. I can't make out them making entry but you can hear the fire. God bless BorTac trucker hat plaid shirt jeans guy. God bless him. I wish he'd been there at 11:33.

Well, seems like of the 3 choices usually available (Lead, Follow, or Get The Fuck Out Of The Way), these LEOs actually chose to interfere with anyone trying to take direct action (see earlier outdoor videos and reports of preventing parents and community members from acting).  So not being qualified to lead or follow, they can't even get the fuck out of the way so somebody else can solve the problem for them.

I have no respect for anyone present at that clusterfuck, nor for anyone who even hints at defending them.

Define "prevention"

Are you talking about a gunman going into a school?  
Because there were policy failures that might have prevented the gunman from getting into the school. There were policy failures that may have also prevented the gunman from making entry into the rooms as well, even if he was in the school.

or

Finding and intervining before these types of people can carry out these acts? Because there are failures in that area as well, which The_Beer_Slayer has talked about.

or

A bunch of LEO failing to follow the basics of AS protocol? There were a raft of failures there as well.

Be specific.

At last, an actual response that addresses the salient point!

Let's say we do it. How extreme does it need to be? Are we talking motivation by fear, or by shame? If fear, nothing less than public execution could be considered, I'd say. So let's hang every LEO there high, and let them rot for a week.

What occurs next?

The entire profession, nationwide, is already teetering on the edge of collapse. Realistically almost every city with a population of 6 digits or more has been running on emergency staffing for months or years by now. How many more will quit? How many will decline to apply to replace the quit officers? Any machine has a limit to how far it can redline before it falls apart, and what you're suggesting has a very good chance of causing exactly that across large portions of the country. The resulting death toll is guaranteed to be far higher than any school shooting in history. Is it still worth doing?

And the better question yet might be, how well do you expect that threat to really work? The Soviets had to place armed commissars behind the front lines to herd them forward at gunpoint, despite an overwhelming awareness amongst the Red Army that any failure at all would result in execution. I would submit to you that no threat of capital punishment at a distant time in the future is going to outweigh the immediacy of incoming gunfire, particularly in a voluntary profession.

While I thank you for addressing my point, I fail to see how it presents a viable solution for anything going forward. And as far as I'm concerned, everyone here who is blindly rageposting and not providing coherent arguments is fully worthy of being ignored or scorned, because it's precisely that unwillingness to confront hard truths that allows Uvaldes and Parklands to happen.

Well said.

You don't need a tactical fucking leader to do something, anything when children are dying.   I'd prefer they are trained, but I'll take who I can get to be the hard ass or the bullet sponge to stop the killing of children.  

At some point you ask yourself can I live with continued gunfire on children.  If you don't ask, or you can live with it then you are one fucked up individual I want nothing to do with on any level.

A tactical leader woulda been nice, short of that a janitor with a mop could possibly make do.

It's fairly simple.

Funding

If a city primary school has 553 kids in it and each one is represented by one bar in a stack like this:



How secure would would the city make the stack?

Or think of it this way: make schools as secure as airports.

Bad guys want to kill innocent kids and teachers?

Kill them first.

I've never once heard of any agency offering incentive pay for tactical training. Bonus pay if you have a college degree coming in is fairly common. Bonus pay if you speak other languages, sure. But neither are ever worth enough to make it worthwhile to do on your own purely for financial gain. IIRC, a bachelor's degree earned me about an extra $1k/year.

My prior agency offered a program where you could go take a physical fitness test every 4 months, and earn 25 hours of PTO for it. Less than 10% of the agency took it up. Why? Most everyone could pass it. But what's the point of getting PTO time when the agency is so short staffed you're not allowed vacations?

If I go out and take a week long breachers course, and then a week long tactical medicine course, and then a week long active shooter course...I'd be out about six months of disposable income/savings for a house. And get precisely $0 from my agency for doing so. Time, money, and tools are all limited, and that means triage is as unavoidable and relentless as gravity.

Or they are government employees

The unarmed mother that ran into the school.

Yeah, if you keep your eyes right at the top of the screen you can see the feet of another group of cops at the other end of the hallway. That is apparently where the BORTAC guy was. That group ultimately entered the room and took him out, and only then did the group under the CCTV camera move in. The group down the hall first appears just before the 10 minute mark though, so they waited almost as long as the group under the camera.

Yep.

I don't think I am exaggerating in saying that out government views children's worth as much less than gold...or even the means of storing gold.

Then get a better job or decide how much your job means to you.  But the classes you list arent necessarily relevant.  Some more than others.  

You are more worried about fucking pay.  And I get it to a degree.  But you can manage these things spread out over time. Or find other options.

I don't know what to tell you.  But if you are a cop you fucking get paid to stop bad guys from killing kids.  I don't give a fuck what the Supreme Court ruled in this case or that one.

You're getting shit on because you've done nothing but defend these cowards and make excuses for them in every thread.

In the first couple days, I could understand the excuses and desire for there to be some reason 19 cops stacked up in a hallway for an hour while kids died.  I'm not a cop and even I thought it looked horrible but surely there had to be more to the story.  I really didn't want to believe that 19 cops would stack up in a hallway and listen to kids scream for an hour.

- "You can't just breach a door like that".....the door wasn't even locked
- "They didn't have long guns".....turns out they did
- "They needed shields".....they had them
- "Their shields weren't rifle rated".....don't fucking care
- "They might not have known where the bad guy was".....yes they did
- "The shooting was probably over".....no it wasn't and you could hear kids screaming

Now you've transitioned to it's not the 19 cops fault, they had shitty leadership or lacked tactical leadership....etc...etc...etc.

If the cops in the hallway put as much effort into killing the bad guy as they did handcuffing parents outside, this would have been over pretty quick.

Attached File

By prevent I'm speaking solely to the realm of LE. Good luck trying to get schools to change their policies, and bless your heart if you think they can all be hardened sufficiently to stop a random kid with a gun. The blunt truth is that the school was a soft target, and even a minute or two inside of a soft target is sufficient to kill double digits.

As for the mental health side, I took a guy into custody last weekend who was quite likely going to go active shooter, and told me he had loaded up his AK to get ready. The news will never know how often that happens...but it only takes one failure, one time, for Uvalde to occur. And in some cases there are no warning signs at all.

No, I'm speaking specifically to the question I posed earlier: if you could go back in time as head of whatever level of LE you want, and try to get a better different set of cops in that door that day, or get that same set of cops to go in and do it right, what actions do you take? I'm literally trying to write lesson plans for our firearms program, and want to know [i[how do you get people to do it right?[/i]

Bottom line buck the fuck up or go sit on the curb. Men are needed to do men jobs.

Yeah, right along with the "blindly crash a vehicle through the exterior wall"

Yeah within THREE minutes of coming into that hallway where nothing was happening he got two helpers and went in. Were the guys in all green, head to toe - is that DPS? Sherrif? Or were they BorTac too?

You going to post a link in your other thread?