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But does an active shooter class really prepare police officers to link up with other patrol officers and do a room entry against an armed suspect? Particularly a day or weekend class awhile ago?

I don't think that's the problem, there was some morale or psychological problem or something. I'm probably using the wrong terms but this was more than "those guys are chicken" it was a problem of unit cohesion and morale. Once a recognized leader showed up and lead the charge most of the "stalled" police seemed willing to join in the attack.

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Yeah within THREE minutes of coming into that hallway where nothing was happening he got two helpers and went in. Were the guys in all green, head to toe - is that DPS? Sherrif? Or were they BorTac too?

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You know what sucks? Someone like that, I bet they feel horrible that they weren’t able to get in that classroom sooner. I bet he has a lot of guilt with that, because good people always wish they’d have done more, which is why they’re good people in the first place.

Meanwhile the fucks that fingerfucked each others’ assholes in the hallway for 77 minutes probably don’t miss a wink of sleep over it.

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You going to post a link in your other thread?

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Totally!  However, the cop who was held back (his daughter sadly did not make it), spouted that he wants  'gun controls' in their memorial march.

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You're getting shit on because you've done nothing but defend these cowards and make excuses for them in every thread.

In the first couple days, I could understand the excuses and desire for there to be some reason 19 cops stacked up in a hallway for an hour while kids died.  I'm not a cop and even I thought it looked horrible but surely there had to be more to the story.  I really didn't want to believe that 19 cops would stack up in a hallway and listen to kids scream for an hour.

- "You can't just breach a door like that".....the door wasn't even locked
- "They didn't have long guns".....turns out they did
- "They needed shields".....they had them
- "Their shields weren't rifle rated".....don't fucking care
- "They might not have known where the bad guy was".....yes they did
- "The shooting was probably over".....no it wasn't and you could hear kids screaming

Now you've transitioned to it's not the 19 cops fault, they had shitty leadership or lacked tactical leadership....etc...etc...etc.

If the cops in the hallway put as much effort into killing the bad guy as they did handcuffing parents outside, this would have been over pretty quick.

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What a load of crap. I am a civilian nobody,  and yet I still manage to have MULTIPLE plate sets, including one with sides. If I can do it on a nothing budget,  they sure as hell can.  

If money is an issue, maybe these agencies can stop playing military,  blowing thousands on MRAPs and APCs, and buy gear AND training that these cowards would  actually use..

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He's the one that got grazed on the head, right? Maybe he came through the door on the opposite end of that hallway?

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The punisher screen saver is fucking epic.

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/463094/2DC5B435-793B-483D-BDFC-B01B7B1BBF66_jpe-2451380.JPG

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We sure he’s not Bumpo from The Punisher movie?

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/483179/66594400-8EEC-4BEF-9F1D-9BCD924ECB93_jpe-2451383.JPG

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Nope.

But, at least now we know that the video floated by The Statesman was heavily redacted of audio. Perhaps that was done because someone decided this would be for the Uvalde parents,
and this was the copy made for them.
Perhaps it is just another level of coverup by either the locals or DPS.

Without full audio we are still being lied to. The full audio is something I won't link.

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@texashomeserver

Is this new video you are referring to the same one posted on page 2?  It is one hour 22 minutes and contains audio.

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If I was a parent of one of those kids I'd be watching that movie and taking notes.

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There's nothing graphic.  

Just a bunch of cops standing around doing nothing.

Okay, maybe it will make you sick.

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So for those who don't want to watch, here's the summary:

11:33.02 gunman enters school
11:33.27 gunman enters classroom
11:35.57 at least 6 cops, at least 2 of which have rifles, enter the school and make their way in
11:36.09 at least 8 cops are in the hallway, maybe 4 are now "stacked" outside the classroom, including at least two rifles
11:36.17 at least 9 cops are in the hallway, at least 6 "stacked" outside the classroom
11:36.58 shots are fired and all the "stacked" cops scramble away
11:37+ nothing happens (except victims dying) for a very long time...

So thoughts are:

Mistake 1: if there are already 6 people coming in at 11:35.57, I'm sure there were at least 1-2 that could have entered the school even earlier during the initial 100 round shooting spree... why did they wait outside and not enter the school?

Mistake 2: You've got a 4 man stack for two classrooms at 11:36.09. At least two of them have rifles. Why aren't you going in????

Mistake 3: Only 8 seconds later you've now got 6 people stacked at the doors; WHY ARE YOU STILL SITTING WAITING OUTSIDE THE CLASSROOMS?

There's nothing beyond this really worth commenting. The rest of the time is just kids bleeding out for the next hour+

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At last, an actual response that addresses the salient point!

Let's say we do it. How extreme does it need to be? Are we talking motivation by fear, or by shame? If fear, nothing less than public execution could be considered, I'd say. So let's hang every LEO there high, and let them rot for a week.

What occurs next?

The entire profession, nationwide, is already teetering on the edge of collapse. Realistically almost every city with a population of 6 digits or more has been running on emergency staffing for months or years by now. How many more will quit? How many will decline to apply to replace the quit officers? Any machine has a limit to how far it can redline before it falls apart, and what you're suggesting has a very good chance of causing exactly that across large portions of the country. The resulting death toll is guaranteed to be far higher than any school shooting in history. Is it still worth doing?

And the better question yet might be, how well do you expect that threat to really work? The Soviets had to place armed commissars behind the front lines to herd them forward at gunpoint, despite an overwhelming awareness amongst the Red Army that any failure at all would result in execution. I would submit to you that no threat of capital punishment at a distant time in the future is going to outweigh the immediacy of incoming gunfire, particularly in a voluntary profession.

While I thank you for addressing my point, I fail to see how it presents a viable solution for anything going forward. And as far as I'm concerned, everyone here who is blindly rageposting and not providing coherent arguments is fully worthy of being ignored or scorned, because it's precisely that unwillingness to confront hard truths that allows Uvaldes and Parklands to happen.

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You have to be the first person I've ever heard in my life claim that HR personnel go out and "train" on their own time and dime.

Seriously, not a single person I know who works in any of those professions engages in self-paid training assignments. Doctors with their own practices, going to a conference? Sure, I know some who do, once or twice a year (and make it an office junket as a business expense write-off). And many who don't. Construction guys going out on their weekend to another job site to go learn new techniques from a different crew? I'm sure someone, somewhere has done so sometime in the past, but you're outright delusional if you think the majority of people make it a point to go on their off time and and spend their own money training for their jobs.

I'll say it again: you're delusional if you think the majority of people in *any* profession are out spending their off time and their personal money signing up for training classes on their own. There are a few, here and there, but they are the exact same type of outliers as the BORTAC guysI. Teachers. Nurses. Truck drivers. Tile-setters. A/C repairmen. Firefighters. Bankers. Line cooks. In any of those fields, you *might* find 5% of workers who have gone out and taken a class on their own in the past year or two. Maybe.



You're not wrong, but you're still missing the fundamental reason for the *why*.

The point that I made, that no one likes, is that the character you describe is vanishingly rare. The character to run into incoming rifle fire without hesitation. Where do you propose to find those people like your friend, in sufficient quantities to cover every town in the country? Agencies don't get to raise kids from birth to have good character, they get to hire the few who show up anymore and are crazy enough to put a uniform on and get in a car. Where do agencies get better people from?

No one here has yet to respond as to how they suggest you fill agencies with only the right characters. I keep saying it, and everyone just insults me, makes a TBL comment, or COCs themselves, but. Not. One. Poster. Has been able to explain how you hire sufficient numbers of officers who are Heraclitus's 1 in 100 warrior. One poster just says we should eliminate all law enforcement. I'm quite certain he won't find the resulting society afterwards any better, but at this point no one wants to confront the actual tough questions of human nature.

Real lessons?

* Average officers, confronted with a barricade and incoming gunfire, and a confusing tactical situation, tend to lose momentum and not know what to do.

* If leadership doesn't immediately appear and form a plan, everyone reverts to the lowest level of training: try to find cover and point a muzzle at a potential threat. Leadership can be anyone of any rank, who is willing and able to direct others around them, and be followed. There was at least one supervisor on scene at the beginning. He never appears to take any leadership role. This is the downside of promoting people into supervisory roles on seniority/lack of alternatives/favoritism/anything other than actual leadership talent.

* When multiple agencies arrive on scene, if an effective leader isn't there making plans, everyone loses momentum because they think the other agency has the ball. People tend to think problems are getting solved by others, and revert to waiting for those others to solve the problem.

* When minutes count, SWAT is hours away. Mindset in many places is "wait for SWAT, they'll save us!" That mindset breeds paralysis. Paralysis is death. Everyone in that hallway was told that at some point in their careers, probably hundreds of times, but it's still incredibly hard to overcome when directly experienced.

* We can't know, but I suspect strongly that if you grabbed some of the individual officers and threw them into the same situation, without backup of any kind, at least a couple of them would have moved forward on their own. The more people who show up on scene, the greater the momentum becomes to stand by and wait. I've seen it in my own experiences, from guys who literally ran right into gunfights and kicked ass, but when other situations got too big with too much brass, froze up and lost all initiative.

* The lack of rifle-rated armor, and familiarity with such, is a huge psychological hole in a situation like this. The shields in the hallway appear to be IIIA shields, which is to say, almost completely pointless to be there at all. If guys have shields they know can stop incoming rounds, they're way more willing to move into position to take those rounds. The majority of agencies do not issue shields to patrol officers (and offhand I've yet to find a single agency that issues rifle-rated shields to everyone, although ours is in the process of doing so).

* Throwing so many officers into that hallway was pointless. Had the shooter come out the doorway, the crossfire would have been disastrous, and likely taken out half the officers in the hall. It shows a complete lack of coordination on scene.

* Possession of a rifle does not make one a warrior. Everyone likes to associate the two together, but this is GD's least favorite truth: the weapon is merely a tool. The mindset to fight and die with it is something else entirely, that doesn't come bundled with any PSA Daily Deal.

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I can't believe I'm saying this but I bet a months pay that 10 Arfcommers would have done 100 times better, then Ulvade LarpPD

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Everything you say is from the heart. And well and fine and true. And yet none of it makes a damn bit of difference in answering one simple question:

How do you prevent the next Uvalde?

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Question.  Wasn't that cop hanging out in the hallway as well?

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More arm-waving nonsense. They had the training, they had the equipment, they had everything they needed to end the threat. Yet they did not. Cowards all. That is the truth. Your fellow officers in the hallway were cowards and should never hold a badge again. If you support them in any way, shape, or form, neither should you.

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At last, an actual response that addresses the salient point!

Let's say we do it. How extreme does it need to be? Are we talking motivation by fear, or by shame? If fear, nothing less than public execution could be considered, I'd say. So let's hang every LEO there high, and let them rot for a week.

What occurs next?

The entire profession, nationwide, is already teetering on the edge of collapse. Realistically almost every city with a population of 6 digits or more has been running on emergency staffing for months or years by now. How many more will quit? How many will decline to apply to replace the quit officers? Any machine has a limit to how far it can redline before it falls apart, and what you're suggesting has a very good chance of causing exactly that across large portions of the country. The resulting death toll is guaranteed to be far higher than any school shooting in history. Is it still worth doing?

And the better question yet might be, how well do you expect that threat to really work? The Soviets had to place armed commissars behind the front lines to herd them forward at gunpoint, despite an overwhelming awareness amongst the Red Army that any failure at all would result in execution. I would submit to you that no threat of capital punishment at a distant time in the future is going to outweigh the immediacy of incoming gunfire, particularly in a voluntary profession.

While I thank you for addressing my point, I fail to see how it presents a viable solution for anything going forward. And as far as I'm concerned, everyone here who is blindly rageposting and not providing coherent arguments is fully worthy of being ignored or scorned, because it's precisely that unwillingness to confront hard truths that allows Uvaldes and Parklands to happen.

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Publicly punish the cowards who displayed depraved indifference and allowed people to die by stopping those who wanted to actually stop the shooter.

I'm also okay with perpetually shaming people that defend their cowardly behavior.

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The punisher screen saver is fucking epic.

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/463094/2DC5B435-793B-483D-BDFC-B01B7B1BBF66_jpe-2451380.JPG

Quoted:
But does an active shooter class really prepare police officers to link up with other patrol officers and do a room entry against an armed suspect? Particularly a day or weekend class awhile ago?