Quoted:
BORTAC guy shows up and ~3 minutes later shooter is terminated. He wasn’t having any of the cowardice bullshit.

Quoted:



The punisher screen saver is fucking epic.

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/463094/2DC5B435-793B-483D-BDFC-B01B7B1BBF66_jpe-2451380.JPG

Quoted:


Define "prevention"

Are you talking about a gunman going into a school?  
Because there were policy failures that might have prevented the gunman from getting into the school. There were policy failures that may have also prevented the gunman from making entry into the rooms as well, even if he was in the school.

or

Finding and intervining before these types of people can carry out these acts? Because there are failures in that area as well, which The_Beer_Slayer has talked about.

or

A bunch of LEO failing to follow the basics of AS protocol? There were a raft of failures there as well.

Be specific.

Quoted:



What a load of crap. I am a civilian nobody,  and yet I still manage to have MULTIPLE plate sets, including one with sides. If I can do it on a nothing budget,  they sure as hell can.  

If money is an issue, maybe these agencies can stop playing military,  blowing thousands on MRAPs and APCs, and buy gear AND training that these cowards would  actually use..

Quoted:



The punisher screen saver is fucking epic.

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/463094/2DC5B435-793B-483D-BDFC-B01B7B1BBF66_jpe-2451380.JPG

Quoted:


You have to be the first person I've ever heard in my life claim that HR personnel go out and "train" on their own time and dime.

Seriously, not a single person I know who works in any of those professions engages in self-paid training assignments. Doctors with their own practices, going to a conference? Sure, I know some who do, once or twice a year (and make it an office junket as a business expense write-off). And many who don't. Construction guys going out on their weekend to another job site to go learn new techniques from a different crew? I'm sure someone, somewhere has done so sometime in the past, but you're outright delusional if you think the majority of people make it a point to go on their off time and and spend their own money training for their jobs.

I'll say it again: you're delusional if you think the majority of people in *any* profession are out spending their off time and their personal money signing up for training classes on their own. There are a few, here and there, but they are the exact same type of outliers as the BORTAC guysI. Teachers. Nurses. Truck drivers. Tile-setters. A/C repairmen. Firefighters. Bankers. Line cooks. In any of those fields, you *might* find 5% of workers who have gone out and taken a class on their own in the past year or two. Maybe.



You're not wrong, but you're still missing the fundamental reason for the *why*.

The point that I made, that no one likes, is that the character you describe is vanishingly rare. The character to run into incoming rifle fire without hesitation. Where do you propose to find those people like your friend, in sufficient quantities to cover every town in the country? Agencies don't get to raise kids from birth to have good character, they get to hire the few who show up anymore and are crazy enough to put a uniform on and get in a car. Where do agencies get better people from?

No one here has yet to respond as to how they suggest you fill agencies with only the right characters. I keep saying it, and everyone just insults me, makes a TBL comment, or COCs themselves, but. Not. One. Poster. Has been able to explain how you hire sufficient numbers of officers who are Heraclitus's 1 in 100 warrior. One poster just says we should eliminate all law enforcement. I'm quite certain he won't find the resulting society afterwards any better, but at this point no one wants to confront the actual tough questions of human nature.

Real lessons?

* Average officers, confronted with a barricade and incoming gunfire, and a confusing tactical situation, tend to lose momentum and not know what to do.

* If leadership doesn't immediately appear and form a plan, everyone reverts to the lowest level of training: try to find cover and point a muzzle at a potential threat. Leadership can be anyone of any rank, who is willing and able to direct others around them, and be followed. There was at least one supervisor on scene at the beginning. He never appears to take any leadership role. This is the downside of promoting people into supervisory roles on seniority/lack of alternatives/favoritism/anything other than actual leadership talent.

* When multiple agencies arrive on scene, if an effective leader isn't there making plans, everyone loses momentum because they think the other agency has the ball. People tend to think problems are getting solved by others, and revert to waiting for those others to solve the problem.

* When minutes count, SWAT is hours away. Mindset in many places is "wait for SWAT, they'll save us!" That mindset breeds paralysis. Paralysis is death. Everyone in that hallway was told that at some point in their careers, probably hundreds of times, but it's still incredibly hard to overcome when directly experienced.

* We can't know, but I suspect strongly that if you grabbed some of the individual officers and threw them into the same situation, without backup of any kind, at least a couple of them would have moved forward on their own. The more people who show up on scene, the greater the momentum becomes to stand by and wait. I've seen it in my own experiences, from guys who literally ran right into gunfights and kicked ass, but when other situations got too big with too much brass, froze up and lost all initiative.

* The lack of rifle-rated armor, and familiarity with such, is a huge psychological hole in a situation like this. The shields in the hallway appear to be IIIA shields, which is to say, almost completely pointless to be there at all. If guys have shields they know can stop incoming rounds, they're way more willing to move into position to take those rounds. The majority of agencies do not issue shields to patrol officers (and offhand I've yet to find a single agency that issues rifle-rated shields to everyone, although ours is in the process of doing so).

* Throwing so many officers into that hallway was pointless. Had the shooter come out the doorway, the crossfire would have been disastrous, and likely taken out half the officers in the hall. It shows a complete lack of coordination on scene.

* Possession of a rifle does not make one a warrior. Everyone likes to associate the two together, but this is GD's least favorite truth: the weapon is merely a tool. The mindset to fight and die with it is something else entirely, that doesn't come bundled with any PSA Daily Deal.

Quoted:


Yet, they managed to get them.
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/483179/D2A55ACD-6BB6-4A4B-AD12-A6874803E09C_jpe-2451489.JPG

Quoted:
I don't give a fuck what the Supreme Court ruled in this case or that one.

Quoted:
There are multiple things that are covered in such classes but its wrong to think of it as just an "active shooter" class.  Officers should be learning stuff that can be applied to multiple situations.  So instead of "active shooter"; think a class that covers breaching, shooting, decision making and room entries.

Quoted:


I'm impressed you know not only what is in my closet, but how much I paid for it (not to mention what I make for that matter). Sure, it's not "operator" multicurve 6lb, but it is quality Protech level 4.. and yes, my budget is nothing compared to the millionaires here.  

 And while on that topic, I don't remember the last time I heard about an evac in an MRAP,

Quoted:


Aimless sees the light!

I've been getting shit on and ignored endlessly in these threads for suggesting there *might* be a lesson here other than "19 random cowards showed up all in one place and failed". Because you're literally describing exactly what I've been pointing out: tactical leadership, and the lack thereof.

What GD really doesn't want to think about is that leadership is vanishingly rare in almost all walks of life. How many major companies are run by raving morons? How many flag officers *aren't* self-serving ass-kissing politicos? How many people drive by a car crash and don't stop?

The majority of people aren't leaders, they're followers. That's true in the military, in law enforcement, in a large company or on a small jobsite. It's true in GD as well, because GD is made up of an assortment of humans, with a self-selected bias towards interest in gun ownership. That's a truth that the average person here doesn't want to hear or confront. It's preferable to imagine superiority, to scoff at anyone who would suggest that they might fall into the same trap. "Those cops had all that equipment and training and failed", they say, "I don't have any of that and I know I would have done better! They must *all* have been cowards and suck!" Anyone who suggests otherwise is challenging that deeply-held self-image of reliance and strength...and thus the pushback.

Now, where do we go to get tactical leaders?

Quoted:

Even more to the point is that the "hero's" lied , covered up and blocked anyone from knowing the truth. I expect promotions and commendations to follow.

Quoted:
I think he'd been getting calls/texts indicating his wife had been shot.  How effective do we expect this guy to be?

Quoted:


If my wife was lying feet away shot and the guy that did it was still hanging out there and killing kids AND I was armed I damn sure wouldn’t turn away and walk out.

Quoted:


He had one other BorTac agent and 2 from other agencies? All four of them should be commended. The two that fell down while rifle rounds were being sprayed stepped up to get sprayed. God bless BorTac trucker hat jeans dude.

Quoted:


They didn't even use a shield, dug the corners and went to work.

No keys needed, no shields needed, no excuses needed.  Trucker hat Bortac guy is known to not tolerate nonsense and get things done. He is the real deal.

Quoted:
In law enforcement history, this will forever be remembered like the Miami FBI shootout was.

For different reasons, of course, but this is a historical clusterfuck, and the worst I can remember in the last 60 years.

Quoted:


~3 minutes to enter that clusterfuck, avoid a bitch, assess, plan, move and terminate. How much time did it take these two fat assed clowns to put their costumes on?

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/240604/6AC1DB0D-4045-4331-A962-464BE8787048_jpe-2451578.JPG

Quoted:
Yes, that's what he said and that's the husband of one of the slain teachers. This is worse than thought, even he walked away. He couldn't even leeroy jenkins that shit to get to his wife. He just stepped out of the building. The cop who's daughter was in the classroom seemed to do the same, just wait it out in the hallway.

If they couldn't even go in for their loved ones, those kids were pretty much screwed.

Quoted:



The punisher screen saver is fucking epic.

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/463094/2DC5B435-793B-483D-BDFC-B01B7B1BBF66_jpe-2451380.JPG

Quoted:


What would you do?

Seriously. You're now in charge of Texas DPS, or whatever Texan agency you want, circle January 2022. What do you do differently? What do you differently that would actually work? What is it in the hiring process you change? The training courses that are offered? The electoral voting of leadership of local agencies?

I've been saying all along that "cowardice" isn't the explanation. It's the answer that everyone wants to hear, because it's easy and satisfies the righteous anger, and dovetails oh so nicely with the ragebait articles, and doesn't need any further analysis or worry. There was a clump of cowards in Texas that day, and let's go imprison/execute them all, and that makes the world a safe place again. Or maybe it's just that all cops are cowards, our tax dollars are wasted, and maybe those anarchists have a point and we should just give it a whirl, no? Texas DPS Director McGraw would like you to believe it was all the fault of a single man (who isn't the shooter, I might add). Is he right?

The answers aren't simple. They aren't a matter of adding a new PowerPoint to the training doctrine. They can't be solved via legislation, or incarceration. Uvalde is just the latest in a long line of human violent conflict that shows that leadership in battle is a rare, precious resource that's impossible to mandate and incapable of artificial creation in a lab. Either it's there at the onset of the gunfight, or it's not.

Honestly the video released yesterday doesn't really show anything new or groundbreaking. The shooter had time to fire over 100 rounds in the classroom before any officers entered the building. We see nothing of the officers outside in this video, though their coordinated entry suggests they staged way too long outside...we don't get to see how, and where.

It's been said over and over again, but the majority of cops are not gunfighters. Their agencies give them a box or two of ammo a year, they aren't shooters, and they don't even know what they don't know. The endless critique of random SROs and patrol cops for not being DEVGRU utterly ignores that the average cop might get 24 hours of training..on a good year...across medical, legal, driving, firearms, ground fighting, computer systems, and equipment usage. To say nothing of the mandatory diversity, equity, and bullshit training. You can't get blood out of a stone. All of this means that when shit hits the fan, it takes some seriously commanding leadership to roll in, make a fast plan, and execute it with guys who aren't trained or equipped for a SWAT-level action. Particularly if they're spread across half a dozen different agencies.

After Parkland, I said at my old agency that we would have done no better on average if it had happened in my AO instead of Parkland. After Parkland, the average patrol guy's view in my area was still "wait for backup, don't go in solo". I went off and wargamed with my SROs how best to ram school gates with my cruiser to come into the fight; most guys didn't even think about what they'd do.

I'll just say this, the capstone of all the things no one here wants to hear: if you grabbed 100 random arfcommers, 90 of them would be the guys hanging at the bottom of the screen by the camera, weapon at the ready but unsure what to do or where to go. 8 or 9 guys would be the meds dude, directing people to the fight or making plans for the wounded. 1 or 2 of those 100 would actually be bumrushing that door and working triggers. That was true in Heraclitus's day back in good ol' 500 BC, and is still true today. Period.

Quoted:
Then what were you talking about hoss? You replied to a comment in a thread about Uvalde, to a post about Uvalde.

You suck at verbal judo about as much as these clowns did at saving kids.

Quoted:
You going to post a link in your other thread?

Quoted:


Just ... wow ...

I don't recall the major event after Parkland (whatever was less than 25 yrs ago) but I do recall almost taking a perma-ban for an un-tempered response so will do better this time.

The ONLY goal in this situation is to give evil a different target than helpless children.

When kids are dying, I'll take a mall cop 3min into it vs. DEVGRU who happens to be training 30min away.

There is no 'good plan' when evil does sht like this. None. So either nut up and go stand in front of it or get out of the fkin way so better men than you can do it.

What to do differently? Give evil a different target so it stops killing helpless children.

Whay is the training? Give evil a different target so it stops killing helpless children.

What is the SOP? Give evil a different target so it stops killing helpless children.

What are TTPs? Give evil a different target so it stops killing helpless children.

What do we expect of all men? Give evil a different target so it stops killing helpless children.

What do we pay cops to do if necessary? Give evil a different target so it stops killing helpless children.

What should everyone old, young, rich, poor, straight, gay, jew, gentile expect of every other American Citizen? Give evil a different target so it stops killing helpless children. And if you are unwilling or unable to do this then get the fk out of the way for anyone who will/can.

Anyone who reads this and doesn't understand it is neither my countryman nor welcome here.