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There's a reason they always try to push Gun control bills through as fast as possible after an incident.
They want to get it done when suburban soccer mom suzie is all hysterical, before the adults take charge; or if the narrative changes (which it did with the release of these videos). Do you think we'd have seen that gun control bill passed if this video had been released 24 hours after the shooting stopped? ![]() |
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Quoted: Like everything else in life, you can only depend on yourself. If this is not a glaring example of why we must be able to defend ourselves..I don't know what is. How you could stand by, knowing children and your loved one was mere feet away in mortal danger, and do NOTHING. 20/20 hindsight is one thing...but this?? View Quote They would have had to kill me if I had been the cop with a kid/wife down and bleeding out. I would rather die than know I didn’t try to save them. |
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Quoted: Cop on right is literally bracing his AR against the corner of the way and holding the end of the barrel by the flash hider. He's got fingers infront of the muzzle. 18mins in on full video https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/97093/muzzle_jpg-2450441.JPG View Quote Unfortunately the only training most police in the country have is that provided and mandated by their police department. ...and unfortunately most of that is pretty terrible, and conducted infrequently. Competence with issued weapons is rare in the policing world. |
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Serious question - are they afraid of consequences if they defy orders? If someone is telling them not to go in could they be opening themselves up to prosecution if they go in anyway, especially if they accidentally shoot the wrong kid. Just wondering if the liability mindset is part of the problem here. Could legislation exempting them from prosecution in these cases avoid this?
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Quoted: In law enforcement history, this will forever be remembered like the Miami FBI shootout was. For different reasons, of course, but this is a historical clusterfuck, and the worst I can remember in the last 60 years. View Quote You'd think that, but Parkland was about that bad and that faded from memory quickly enough to allow this dogshit circus. So I dunno. But I hope you're right. |
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Quoted: Using this video: ![]() At the Real Time mark of 12:19:56:20, I see what I think is Arredondo on the phone, at the left side of the frame wearing a black vest with Police in white lettering on the front. And on that vest appears to be a fucking radio, which that POS said he purposefully left behind because he "wanted both hands on his gun in case he came face to face with the shooter". https://imgur.com/a/zp2Mtis View Quote Lieing piece of shit! Besides the two bortac guys who ended the shooter and rhe father/cop of one of the victims I hope the rest are fucked for life due to there cowardice.. I've never seen such cowards in 15 years of law enforcement..school shootings and active shooters is what we trained the hardest on, these guys have NO excuse and there previous lies earlier on after this incident should be hammered on. They all don't need to work in law enforcement ever again.. I have so much more to say, but I best not... Texas DPS... fuckin cowards and everyone of them I see from here on out will hear it from me. There colleagues should be ashamed. |
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For all the saber rattling going on by the "professionals" here that would've done it better-- I'm not convinced this scenario would've happened ANY differently no matter where it occurred.
I think the only difference in the future will be the direction which the cops are pointing their weapons when the next incident happens. Enough parents have seen what happened in Uvalde--I don't think the next department will get the peaceful response this one has. |
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compare this footage to the St Francis Medical Building footage from here in Tulsa and see the stark difference.
TPD, OHP and virtually every other agency within a 30 minute drive busted in and secured the area. I'd like to add that the medical grounds is highly confusing due to streets and buildings. |
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I thought that ever since Columbine the SOP was to engage the shooter as soon as 1-2 police officers arrive. Unfortunately, that strategy requires some courage. The NEW strategy should be to open all doors. Let the kids out and the (armed) parents in.
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Quoted: What would you do? View Quote Not stand there with body armor and a rifle and let that shit go down. This is not a difficult problem to solve. Dangerous, yes, but not difficult. You find the guy doing the killing and you kill him. ...which, thankfully, when someone with a goddamn spine showed up he proceeded to do precisely that. In Parkland, unarmed JROTC cadets and an unarmed football coach put themselves between the shooter and innocent people in an attempt to save lives. They had no duty to do this. They had sworn no oath, had no body armor, no backup, and no weapons...but they figured out what the right thing to do was even without any training and did whatever they could. Let's not pretend that this gaggle of shitheads was just insufficiently trained. I've been involved in training for 20+ years now. Police, in the main, don't fucking train beyond department minimums. And for 20 years I've heard police from all over the place bleat and whine about how training should be provided and they should be paid to do it on department time and not lose any of their own time because reasons. Meanwhile every other profession in the goddamn country involves people investing their own time and their own money in learning or improving skills that are useful in their employment. If someone works in IT, medicine, construction, law, accountancy, or any host of other professional tracks in this country, they spend hours outside of the office learning or honing skills they use on the job. They take time away from their lives and their families to get it done because that's what it takes. Even the fucking useless HR drones do that shit on their own time and their own dime. If you are in a job that doesn't involve asking if you want fries with that, you are going to have to spend your own time and your own money improving your skills just to keep up. That's the reality of the working world. But cops? No, somehow cops are uniquely exempt from the requirement damn near everyone else in society has to invest in their own capability. You're not wrong that any number of departments in this country would fail just as spectacularly as Uvalde's cowards did. But that's because those departments have a toxic leadership culture full of cowards. Which means they produce a department full of toxic cowards who will fail like this. Partly that's on the voters for not holding that sort of leadership accountable...but whenever he voters do make any attempt then the shitbags wrap themselves in the flag and claim their heroes to avoid any accountability. ...just like the Uvalde cowards have done here. The bottom line is that policing in the United States is islands of competence, professionalism, and courage under continuous assault by tidal waves of mediocrity and cowardice. But that doesn't excuse the failure of individuals who are swimming in that shit to do better, especially when it's this fucking obvious. One of the reasons there's so much suck is because so much of it gets wrapped in the flag and excused because CoPz!!! Motherfuckers running around with TBL stickers and TBL catchphrases jerking each other off about brotherhood, heroism, and other stupid lies. How much brotherhood is involved in holding an officer back while his wife is literally bleeding to death a few feet away? Zilch. The first step to fixing the problem is acknowledging it. Lack of training isn't the core problem. Lack of character is. A friend of mine has worked two active shooter calls in the last couple of weeks. In each case he was furthest away, but first on the scene. In each case he grabbed a shotgun and went in hard to find the problem. All by himself. He's the only one on his department that has sought out training outside of what his department provides. His character drove him to be better. Not the other way around. |
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Quoted: I thought that ever since Columbine the SOP was to engage the shooter as soon as 1-2 police officers arrive. Unfortunately, that strategy requires some courage. The NEW strategy should be to open all doors. Let the kids out and the (armed) parents in. View Quote I know of half a dozen large departments that have sent directives everyone in the department has to read affirming that their first priority in an active shooter situation is to find and stop the threat immediately. No waiting for backup, no calling swat....get in there and stop the killing. The idea of "They didn't know!" is bullshit. |
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Quoted: A police department doesn't just magically end up like this. Deliberately people who should not have the job have to had been picked over good candidates. People who are good cops have to be pressured out. The criminal element there must have a really strong say in the workings of the police. Much of the world is awash in corruption. We shouldn't pretend America is immune and that there is not a severe cost that comes from corruption. View Quote One problem though. This isn’t “a police department.” It was several. ![]() |
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Watched the full length video this morning. Pretty sure the LARPer cop dressed in full multicam with the suppresser on his AR and matching multicam ball cap stopped and posed for a selfie at one point as he was walking back and forth in the hallway over 30 minutes or so.
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Where's our resident school resource officers/subject matter experts at? Are they reviewing the film frame by frame for a detailed AAR?
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Quoted: Now think about this: all the lying leaders of the LE agencies involved and government had this video immediately after the shooting, yet went to incredible lengths to fabricate all sorts of other BS narratives. Unbelievable. View Quote Yep! But there are some on here that believes everything the Government tells them. |
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Quoted: Where's our resident school resource officers/subject matter experts at? Are they reviewing the film frame by frame for a detailed AAR? View Quote I have no doubt that some people's initial reactions was based on the idea that nobody would be this cowardly. And given what we've seen over and over again about press reports, some skepticism was warranted. What you look for now is people who persist in wrapping cowardice and failure in the flag and insisting you salute it. Those are the sorts of people who make these kinds of disasters possible. So initial skepticism I can understand. Even I was surprised by the scope of failure here. I don't blame others for initially seeing this kind of inexcusable cowardice as unthinkable. But now that we have facts, if they persist in defending this shit then they're telling you a lot about themselves. |
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Quoted: I have no doubt that some people's initial reactions was based on the idea that nobody would be this cowardly. And given what we've seen over and over again about press reports, some skepticism was warranted. What you look for now is people who persist in wrapping cowardice and failure in the flag and insisting you salute it. Those are the sorts of people who make these kinds of disasters possible. So initial skepticism I can understand. Even I was surprised by the scope of failure here. I don't blame others for initially seeing this kind of inexcusable cowardice as unthinkable. But now that we have facts, if they persist in defending this shit then they're telling you a lot about themselves. View Quote |
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Quoted: That’s hard to watch, but not due to any gore. When you sign up for the service, there is at least an inkling that may ultimately lead to your injury or death, even I peace time. Has to be hard to be a cop, but damn, anyone in that line of work should have come to peace with possibilities like this and what needs done. I see some lack of leadership caused this claims, but this is one of those times leadership doesn’t need to come from the top. It takes someone with the balls to take the fight to evil like we saw here at the end. My outlook on certain things has changed since my youngest is out of high school, but fuck, sign me up for cannon fodder first in the stack if this goes down in my ao. My kids are my greatest treasure, I couldn’t imagine the grief for these families. View Quote Oh, there was a failure of leadership, alright. But it began long before that day in May. It began the moment the Mayor and the City Council hired Arredondo and continued unbroken until that BORTAC guy walked into the classroom. It began again as soon he walked out and continues until today as those ass covering poltroons continue their utterly transparent efforts to cover their utterly worthless asses. |
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Quoted: I thought that ever since Columbine the SOP was to engage the shooter as soon as 1-2 police officers arrive. View Quote AS response has changed multiple times throughout the years since Columbine. Columbine marked the change from the classic "establish a perimeter and wait for SWAT" style response to one where a group of officers were to go in and deal with the threat. When this changed first happened, 1-2 man response was generally frowned upon with 4-5 officers being the preferred number. In the past few years you have seen most places go to the solo officer response and then teams as groups of officers arrive at the same time or the situation requires a team more than single officer. |
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Quoted: Jesus Christ. After ALL of the evidence of flat out cowardice and dereliction of duty from these sorry assed excuses for cops you still want to make excuses for them. You've previously said that we didn't know what happened, we've never chased suspects, we've never blah blah blah. Well fuck straight off with your thin blue line bullshit. There were about 50 flat out incompetent cowards and a few MEN in that hallway. Too bad that the MEN didn't get there sooner. It turns out that damn near all of the information that the cops put out was a lie and you're STILL shilling for them. You're either deluded or a troll. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: What would you do? Seriously. You're now in charge of Texas DPS, or whatever Texan agency you want, circle January 2022. What do you do differently? What do you differently that would actually work? What is it in the hiring process you change? The training courses that are offered? The electoral voting of leadership of local agencies? I've been saying all along that "cowardice" isn't the explanation. It's the answer that everyone wants to hear, because it's easy and satisfies the righteous anger, and dovetails oh so nicely with the ragebait articles, and doesn't need any further analysis or worry. There was a clump of cowards in Texas that day, and let's go imprison/execute them all, and that makes the world a safe place again. Or maybe it's just that all cops are cowards, our tax dollars are wasted, and maybe those anarchists have a point and we should just give it a whirl, no? Texas DPS Director McGraw would like you to believe it was all the fault of a single man (who isn't the shooter, I might add). Is he right? The answers aren't simple. They aren't a matter of adding a new PowerPoint to the training doctrine. They can't be solved via legislation, or incarceration. Uvalde is just the latest in a long line of human violent conflict that shows that leadership in battle is a rare, precious resource that's impossible to mandate and incapable of artificial creation in a lab. Either it's there at the onset of the gunfight, or it's not. Honestly the video released yesterday doesn't really show anything new or groundbreaking. The shooter had time to fire over 100 rounds in the classroom before any officers entered the building. We see nothing of the officers outside in this video, though their coordinated entry suggests they staged way too long outside...we don't get to see how, and where. It's been said over and over again, but the majority of cops are not gunfighters. Their agencies give them a box or two of ammo a year, they aren't shooters, and they don't even know what they don't know. The endless critique of random SROs and patrol cops for not being DEVGRU utterly ignores that the average cop might get 24 hours of training..on a good year...across medical, legal, driving, firearms, ground fighting, computer systems, and equipment usage. To say nothing of the mandatory diversity, equity, and bullshit training. You can't get blood out of a stone. All of this means that when shit hits the fan, it takes some seriously commanding leadership to roll in, make a fast plan, and execute it with guys who aren't trained or equipped for a SWAT-level action. Particularly if they're spread across half a dozen different agencies. After Parkland, I said at my old agency that we would have done no better on average if it had happened in my AO instead of Parkland. After Parkland, the average patrol guy's view in my area was still "wait for backup, don't go in solo". I went off and wargamed with my SROs how best to ram school gates with my cruiser to come into the fight; most guys didn't even think about what they'd do. I'll just say this, the capstone of all the things no one here wants to hear: if you grabbed 100 random arfcommers, 90 of them would be the guys hanging at the bottom of the screen by the camera, weapon at the ready but unsure what to do or where to go. 8 or 9 guys would be the meds dude, directing people to the fight or making plans for the wounded. 1 or 2 of those 100 would actually be bumrushing that door and working triggers. That was true in Heraclitus's day back in good ol' 500 BC, and is still true today. Period. Jesus Christ. After ALL of the evidence of flat out cowardice and dereliction of duty from these sorry assed excuses for cops you still want to make excuses for them. You've previously said that we didn't know what happened, we've never chased suspects, we've never blah blah blah. Well fuck straight off with your thin blue line bullshit. There were about 50 flat out incompetent cowards and a few MEN in that hallway. Too bad that the MEN didn't get there sooner. It turns out that damn near all of the information that the cops put out was a lie and you're STILL shilling for them. You're either deluded or a troll. The guy you're quoting has done nothing but defend these cowards in every thread....one can only assume that he identifies with them. |
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Quoted: Meanwhile every other profession in the goddamn country involves people investing their own time and their own money in learning or improving skills that are useful in their employment. If someone works in IT, medicine, construction, law, accountancy, or any host of other professional tracks in this country, they spend hours outside of the office learning or honing skills they use on the job. They take time away from their lives and their families to get it done because that's what it takes. Even the fucking useless HR drones do that shit on their own time and their own dime. If you are in a job that doesn't involve asking if you want fries with that, you are going to have to spend your own time and your own money improving your skills just to keep up. That's the reality of the working world. But cops? No, somehow cops are uniquely exempt from the requirement damn near everyone else in society has to invest in their own capability. View Quote You have people in countless professions that think that learning opportunities to be better in their profession should be come with compensation by their employers and/or be provided by their employer. Most people are content to remain mediocre and not look for ways to improve themselves.....that is simply society as a whole. To single out police as some anomaly when it comes to wanting to be paid or have the learning opportunity provided by their employer is BS. Yes; cops should be seeking out training on their own, but that applies to literally everyone that wants to perform better at a given task. |
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I don't understand what their thought process was but I also can't believe they were all cowards. That big a group? No, something else was going on here, something that needs to be figured out so it doesn't happen again or somewheres else.
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According to anti gunners / liberals / democrats, you don’t need guns, because the government/ police will protect you from danger.
This is the government that’s supposed to protect you and your family. Pretty horrifying. |
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Quoted: You'd think that, but Parkland was about that bad and that faded from memory quickly enough to allow this dogshit circus. So I dunno. But I hope you're right. View Quote Yes, Parkland was similar, but this Uvalde video has sealed the deal. And we're living in a visual world. Not certain exactly what's going to shift, but this event will prove to be seismic. |
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Quoted: To single out police as some anomaly when it comes to wanting to be paid or have the learning opportunity provided by their employer is BS. View Quote It's really not because in any number of other professions we could sit here and list and discuss in detail with people actively in them, there is no widespread culture excusing that. Some of the people on this site are involved in professions where large chunks of their knowledgebase is obsolete every few years and they must constantly re-learn what they do on a continual basis...and they are expected to do that on their own time and their own dime or they're looking for another job. That's the reality of their work life, and it applies to probably the overwhelming majority of people active on this forum. If your job doesn't require asking if you want fries with that, odds are high that you're spending your own time and money learning things useful to you on the job. Simple as that. Cops don't get a pass. This discussion is happening in the context of an abject failure of the most basic duty police officers have. If we were talking about any other profession that got this many people killed from sheer cowardice, the reviews wouldn't be any prettier. There's lots of problems in society and low standards are out there aplenty...but this is a massive cultural problem in the institution of policing. |
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Quoted: What would you do? Seriously. You're now in charge of Texas DPS, or whatever Texan agency you want, circle January 2022. What do you do differently? What do you differently that would actually work? What is it in the hiring process you change? The training courses that are offered? The electoral voting of leadership of local agencies? I've been saying all along that "cowardice" isn't the explanation. It's the answer that everyone wants to hear, because it's easy and satisfies the righteous anger, and dovetails oh so nicely with the ragebait articles, and doesn't need any further analysis or worry. There was a clump of cowards in Texas that day, and let's go imprison/execute them all, and that makes the world a safe place again. Or maybe it's just that all cops are cowards, our tax dollars are wasted, and maybe those anarchists have a point and we should just give it a whirl, no? Texas DPS Director McGraw would like you to believe it was all the fault of a single man (who isn't the shooter, I might add). Is he right? The answers aren't simple. They aren't a matter of adding a new PowerPoint to the training doctrine. They can't be solved via legislation, or incarceration. Uvalde is just the latest in a long line of human violent conflict that shows that leadership in battle is a rare, precious resource that's impossible to mandate and incapable of artificial creation in a lab. Either it's there at the onset of the gunfight, or it's not. Honestly the video released yesterday doesn't really show anything new or groundbreaking. The shooter had time to fire over 100 rounds in the classroom before any officers entered the building. We see nothing of the officers outside in this video, though their coordinated entry suggests they staged way too long outside...we don't get to see how, and where. It's been said over and over again, but the majority of cops are not gunfighters. Their agencies give them a box or two of ammo a year, they aren't shooters, and they don't even know what they don't know. The endless critique of random SROs and patrol cops for not being DEVGRU utterly ignores that the average cop might get 24 hours of training..on a good year...across medical, legal, driving, firearms, ground fighting, computer systems, and equipment usage. To say nothing of the mandatory diversity, equity, and bullshit training. You can't get blood out of a stone. All of this means that when shit hits the fan, it takes some seriously commanding leadership to roll in, make a fast plan, and execute it with guys who aren't trained or equipped for a SWAT-level action. Particularly if they're spread across half a dozen different agencies. After Parkland, I said at my old agency that we would have done no better on average if it had happened in my AO instead of Parkland. After Parkland, the average patrol guy's view in my area was still "wait for backup, don't go in solo". I went off and wargamed with my SROs how best to ram school gates with my cruiser to come into the fight; most guys didn't even think about what they'd do. I'll just say this, the capstone of all the things no one here wants to hear: if you grabbed 100 random arfcommers, 90 of them would be the guys hanging at the bottom of the screen by the camera, weapon at the ready but unsure what to do or where to go. 8 or 9 guys would be the meds dude, directing people to the fight or making plans for the wounded. 1 or 2 of those 100 would actually be bumrushing that door and working triggers. That was true in Heraclitus's day back in good ol' 500 BC, and is still true today. Period. View Quote What you said is the biggest crock of shit ever posted. If you are correct, there is zero point in having police. You serve no fucking purpose. Defund and disband every department if what you say is true. This epic failure is due to the leadership and liberalism destroying American values and institutions. Shit hiring due to checking the correct boxes and nothing to do with the person's abilities. They hired from the top down based on a person's skin color, sex, orientation, and political party. They ended up with a collective group of people that had no business being in law enforcement being led by someone with no business being in charge. Period. I don't even have kids and I know I would have stormed the fucking door. If you truly believe what you posted, you should turn in your badge and encourage every person on your force to do the same, you are unfit for duty. |
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I predict this will become a case study like the FBI Florida shootout or the North Hollywood shootout. Or Columbine.
How did a group of trained, dedicated LEOs become immobilized for 80+ minutes while teachers and children were being slaughtered? What happened on scene? What was the command structure? Was there a command structure? What was the difference between the Uvalde cops and the BP officer who went in? |
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Ahh, planned events disguised as incompetence. Same playbook, different event.
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I just can't believe over an hour when they even had shields around 15 minutes later... for fuck sake, 3 guys with shields is pretty fucking hard to take down
and when the first shots at the room, why not just take cover at the door, they were tripping over each other 100 ft all the way down the hallway shooter could have stepped out and killed a half dozen with their backs turned and tails tucked |
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I can only imagine the comments those guys are getting when they talk tough on traffic stops when writing tickets to motorists for exceeding the speed limit by 6MPH.
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Quoted: Noticed that slip move https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/563217/Screenshot_20220712-195853_YouTube_jpg-2450670.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/563217/Screenshot_20220712-202346_YouTube_jpg-2450678.JPG View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Trucker hat BORTAC guy arrives at 12:47:02 on the counter. Luckily he slips in behind stethoscope hall-monitor guy when his back was turned, and is able to work his way up to the front. He spends about 2 min talking to other Boarder Patrol guys and getting situated with what's going on. At 12:49:20 he decides it's Fo-Time and makes his move to the door. They make entry at 12:50:01 Noticed that slip move https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/563217/Screenshot_20220712-195853_YouTube_jpg-2450670.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/563217/Screenshot_20220712-202346_YouTube_jpg-2450678.JPG WHO THE FUCK IS THIS MOTHER FUCKER EMT HOLDING THE COPS BACK?? HE DID THAT HOW MANY TIMES??? WHO THE FUCK IS THIS GUY??? |
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Quoted: KVUE has blurred parts of the video out of sensitivity for the victims and their families. As of Tuesday, July 12, state and local leaders have not released video from inside Robb Elementary School on the day an 18-year-old gunman freely entered the school and holed up in a classroom, where he killed 19 students and two teachers. That video was obtained by Austin American-Statesman and KVUE Senior Reporter Tony Plohetski. Both media outlets have elected to release that footage Tuesday to provide transparency to the community, showing what happened as officials waited to enter that classroom. Link to video View Quote ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
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Quoted: https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQQp7pNQZzocnGB_hIsmUDhJOm4PiOaqtAIYg&usqp=CAU Exactly why we were engaging about 'leadership' or lack of it in this case. Didn't look like anyone there had the balls or gumption to do what they're trained for. View Quote And not one single person stepped up. In a group of macho cops, TEXAN macho cops, not one summoned up the courage to take action. |
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Quoted: ~9:40 on the full video. Cop on the right comes up and says 'my wife's down'? Or something like that? He was RIGHT THERE in the first minutes and didn't immediately get on that door and make entry? Maybe I misheard it, but I think this might be the guy who they wind up holding back, much later, after his wife had probably already bled out. View Quote Yes, that's what he said and that's the husband of one of the slain teachers. This is worse than thought, even he walked away. He couldn't even leeroy jenkins that shit to get to his wife. He just stepped out of the building. The cop who's daughter was in the classroom seemed to do the same, just wait it out in the hallway. If they couldn't even go in for their loved ones, those kids were pretty much screwed. |
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Quoted: Serious question - are they afraid of consequences if they defy orders? If someone is telling them not to go in could they be opening themselves up to prosecution if they go in anyway, especially if they accidentally shoot the wrong kid. Just wondering if the liability mindset is part of the problem here. Could legislation exempting them from prosecution in these cases avoid this? View Quote Lack of leadership and indecision. Its all fun and games to play with their gear until it’s time to act. I am surprised they didnt ND each other. |
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Quoted: Cowards. Man that is truly disgusting. The armed men that stood by listening to children scream in terror as they died and did nothing should strongly consider Seppuku. View Quote I hope the families that lost children see this and strongly consider helping them out with that... Absolutely disgusting. |
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Fuck those pussies. What a feckless and impotent bunch of cowards.
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