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Posted: 10/6/2014 1:01:43 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Velocity by itself doesn't mean much. Ok? You either make enough to frag or you don't. Which is velocity dependent. A longer barrel increases the range at which 5.56mm can be expected to frag reliably. Because a longer barrel, increases velocity. At 100m, a 14.5" bbl makes plenty of velocity for explosive fragmentation. Yet still might not, because it's not a guaranteed mechanism. At 300m, I would want something longer. Because you want more velocity? |
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Posted: 10/6/2014 1:04:20 PM EDT
[#2]
I'd guess it has a lot to do with patrols being vehicle based now vs foot based when the gun was originally designed.
I am also not military so I don't know if the above statement is true. |
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Posted: 10/6/2014 1:14:17 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
At what range does one become unshot if I use a 14.5? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Velocity by itself doesn't mean much. You either make enough to frag or you don't. A longer barrel increases the range at which 5.56mm can be expected to frag reliably. At 100m, a 14.5" bbl makes plenty of velocity for explosive fragmentation. At 300m, I would want something longer. At what range does one become unshot if I use a 14.5? Hey Tim. What did your response have to do with my post? I never said you couldn't make hits at range with a 14.5"bbl. Explosive frag makes the hits you make moar gooder. |
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Posted: 10/6/2014 1:15:36 PM EDT
[#4]
Simple balance between velocity/effectiveness and compactness for all around utility of the rifle for all what people think they may use it for. A shorter rifle has its advantages, and 16" midlength seems to be a good mix between reliability/velocity/compactness.
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Posted: 10/6/2014 1:17:05 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Seems like it does mean a lot! Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Velocity by itself doesn't mean much. Ok? You either make enough to frag or you don't. Which is velocity dependent. A longer barrel increases the range at which 5.56mm can be expected to frag reliably. Because a longer barrel, increases velocity. At 100m, a 14.5" bbl makes plenty of velocity for explosive fragmentation. Yet still might not, because it's not a guaranteed mechanism. At 300m, I would want something longer. Because you want more velocity? That is a lot of red text just to agree with me on all counts. |
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Posted: 10/6/2014 1:43:26 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That is a lot of red text just to agree with me on all counts. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Velocity by itself doesn't mean much. Ok? You either make enough to frag or you don't. Which is velocity dependent. A longer barrel increases the range at which 5.56mm can be expected to frag reliably. Because a longer barrel, increases velocity. At 100m, a 14.5" bbl makes plenty of velocity for explosive fragmentation. Yet still might not, because it's not a guaranteed mechanism. At 300m, I would want something longer. Because you want more velocity? That is a lot of red text just to agree with me on all counts. |
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Posted: 10/6/2014 1:49:45 PM EDT
[#7]
Because you don't see the Tier-1 folks walking around with Plain Jane A2s. I want to build a Mk12 Mod 1 though.
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Posted: 10/6/2014 2:10:32 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not as tacticool 
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Posted: 10/6/2014 2:25:20 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Because huge, long rifles suck. Most killing happens with crew serves in the military. Most civilians don't need a rifle that makes shots at a few hundred yards. Shorter guns are cooler. Smaller guns suit people's needs better, such as home defense or truck rifles, Suppressors are more popular that ever. Not to mention, modern ammo is a lot better, and often designed to work out of carbines, so the velocity loss isn't as big of a deal as it used to be. There are lots of reasons why people choose shorter barrels. Here is one of my "huge long rifles" that you think sucks and I don't need: 
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Posted: 10/6/2014 2:30:52 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Here is one of my "huge long rifles" that you think sucks and I don't need: Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Because huge, long rifles suck. Most killing happens with crew serves in the military. Most civilians don't need a rifle that makes shots at a few hundred yards. Shorter guns are cooler. Smaller guns suit people's needs better, such as home defense or truck rifles, Suppressors are more popular that ever. Not to mention, modern ammo is a lot better, and often designed to work out of carbines, so the velocity loss isn't as big of a deal as it used to be. There are lots of reasons why people choose shorter barrels. Here is one of my "huge long rifles" that you think sucks and I don't need: 
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Posted: 10/6/2014 2:36:57 PM EDT
[#11]
I have always preferred the 20 inch barrel. That is what I was issued way back in the day. However, I like to think I am willing enough to take in new information, and all the new information indicates that the 16 inch barrels are more useful, especially in close quarters. So, I'll take advice from those actually using the shorter barrels, and keep my 20 inch rifle for matches, or other situations that don't include rather "severe social encounters".
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Posted: 10/6/2014 2:43:42 PM EDT
[#12]
People on both sides of the argument are way too concerned about what other people think.
Just use what you like and don't worry about anyone else. We all have different needs, preferences and what not. I prefer a 20" rifle. I like the way it looks, I like the way it feels. I like the long handguard and fixed stock. I feel cramped up on a carbine. I'm not using it for home defense, so I'll take the velocity, softer recoil, greater sight radius when I shoot irons, etc. |
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Posted: 10/6/2014 2:49:49 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
People on both sides of the argument are way too concerned about what other people think. Just use what you like and don't worry about anyone else. We all have different needs, preferences and what not. I prefer a 20" rifle. I like the way it looks, I like the way it feels. I like the long handguard and fixed stock. I feel cramped up on a carbine. I'm not using it for home defense, so I'll take the velocity, softer recoil, greater sight radius when I shoot irons, etc. Would it be fair to say you prefer a 20" AR and use a shotgun for home defense? I'm doing a scientific study and your honest reply would be most appreciated. I have a theory and your reply could help disprove or buttress it. |
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Posted: 10/6/2014 2:54:29 PM EDT
[#14]
all the cool kids use m240s. We should just issue every soldier a m240 and we will FINALLY be able to kill the enemy.
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Posted: 10/6/2014 2:59:14 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Here is one of my "huge long rifles" that you think sucks and I don't need: Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Because huge, long rifles suck. Most killing happens with crew serves in the military. Most civilians don't need a rifle that makes shots at a few hundred yards. Shorter guns are cooler. Smaller guns suit people's needs better, such as home defense or truck rifles, Suppressors are more popular that ever. Not to mention, modern ammo is a lot better, and often designed to work out of carbines, so the velocity loss isn't as big of a deal as it used to be. There are lots of reasons why people choose shorter barrels. Here is one of my "huge long rifles" that you think sucks and I don't need: Reedin's fer faggits. Butthurt's just fer you. |
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Posted: 10/6/2014 3:00:22 PM EDT
[#16]
The 556 cartridge ballistics.
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Posted: 10/6/2014 3:06:00 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Would it be fair to say you prefer a 20" AR and use a shotgun for home defense? I'm doing a scientific study and your honest reply would be most appreciated. I have a theory and your reply could help disprove or buttress it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
People on both sides of the argument are way too concerned about what other people think. Just use what you like and don't worry about anyone else. We all have different needs, preferences and what not. I prefer a 20" rifle. I like the way it looks, I like the way it feels. I like the long handguard and fixed stock. I feel cramped up on a carbine. I'm not using it for home defense, so I'll take the velocity, softer recoil, greater sight radius when I shoot irons, etc. Would it be fair to say you prefer a 20" AR and use a shotgun for home defense? I'm doing a scientific study and your honest reply would be most appreciated. I have a theory and your reply could help disprove or buttress it. I use a handgun with a WML for HD. I like the idea of an AR for HD use, but it's not feasible for us here in CA. |
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Posted: 10/6/2014 3:15:26 PM EDT
[#18]
If only someone could invent other calibers of ammunition. Then we could use them for shooting things larger than prairie dogs at distance. Maybe someday
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Posted: 10/6/2014 3:21:52 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: all the cool kids use m240s. We should just issue every soldier a m240 and we will FINALLY be able to kill the enemy. Fuckin' A right! |
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Posted: 10/6/2014 3:27:42 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I use a handgun with a WML for HD. I like the idea of an AR for HD use, but it's not feasible for us here in CA. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
People on both sides of the argument are way too concerned about what other people think. Just use what you like and don't worry about anyone else. We all have different needs, preferences and what not. I prefer a 20" rifle. I like the way it looks, I like the way it feels. I like the long handguard and fixed stock. I feel cramped up on a carbine. I'm not using it for home defense, so I'll take the velocity, softer recoil, greater sight radius when I shoot irons, etc. Would it be fair to say you prefer a 20" AR and use a shotgun for home defense? I'm doing a scientific study and your honest reply would be most appreciated. I have a theory and your reply could help disprove or buttress it. I use a handgun with a WML for HD. I like the idea of an AR for HD use, but it's not feasible for us here in CA. I might have to retool my theory then. I have a notion that those who insist the only real rifle is a 20" with irons and no accessories would also be part of the shotgun mafia for home defense. I thought your post might give me an insight but I was off the mark in my initial assumptions. Thanks for the reply! Science just happened bitches. |
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Posted: 10/6/2014 3:34:59 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The 16 inch is a much more practical, handy Rifle for a very minor cost in velocity. |
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Posted: 10/6/2014 3:39:29 PM EDT
[#22]
Sweet Georgia Brown...I love this place.
Guy asks when a trend changed, and it turns into a purse swinging match...complete with more,thrusts per squeeze, animations by RustedAce, beans and no beans, and I think we even have a shoulder thing that goes up. |
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Posted: 10/6/2014 3:42:14 PM EDT
[#23]
Can you butt stroke somebody effectively with a collapsible stock without breaking the receiver extension?
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Posted: 10/6/2014 3:43:15 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Can you butt stroke somebody effectively with a collapsible stock without breaking the receiver extension? 
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Posted: 10/6/2014 3:44:38 PM EDT
[#25]
I know all the cool kids and HSLD types hate 3 Gun, but it's become a big, wealthy testing ground for equipment, especially for rifles with which to hit relatively small targets out to moderate ranges as quickly as possible.
And the 20" gun is all but gone outside of the iron-sight guns. (Which means it's pretty much gone.) I'm swapping my 20" HBAR out for a 16" lightweight contour barrel (as soon as it arrives) and shaving about 2 pounds off of the gun. |
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Posted: 10/6/2014 3:45:12 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Can you butt stroke somebody effectively with a collapsible stock without breaking the receiver extension? Muzzle strikes are way better. Just as effective, and you keep the gun pointed toward the bad guy. |
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Posted: 10/6/2014 3:47:09 PM EDT
[#27]
Although I have short barreled ARs (which are handy), I have found that 20" barrels are a good compromise between portability and velocity for my uses in 308 and 556 ARs.
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Posted: 10/6/2014 3:51:07 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Can you butt stroke somebody effectively with a collapsible stock without breaking the receiver extension? Why buttstroke when you can bayonet or even halberd these days? |
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Posted: 10/6/2014 3:52:11 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why buttstroke when you can bayonet or even halberd these days? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Can you butt stroke somebody effectively with a collapsible stock without breaking the receiver extension? Why buttstroke when you can bayonet or even halberd these days? Why decide on a weapons system based on one incredibly specific scenario like "the need to butt stroke someone" ? It's derptastic. |
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Posted: 10/6/2014 3:59:40 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Although I have short barreled ARs (which are handy), I have found that 20" barrels are a good compromise between portability and velocity for my uses in 308 and 556 ARs. 20" is a compromise in 5.56 for velocity? 
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Posted: 10/6/2014 4:01:21 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why decide on a weapons system based on one incredibly specific scenario like "the need to butt stroke someone" ? It's derptastic. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Can you butt stroke somebody effectively with a collapsible stock without breaking the receiver extension? Why buttstroke when you can bayonet or even halberd these days? Why decide on a weapons system based on one incredibly specific scenario like "the need to butt stroke someone" ? It's derptastic. Speaking of the weapons system, I'm wondering if there would be a demand for large lead filled rail mounted truck nuts. Mounted towards the end of the barrel it would be an effective melee weapon, kind of like a flail, and serve a real need |
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Posted: 10/6/2014 4:01:23 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 20" is a compromise in 5.56 for velocity? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Although I have short barreled ARs (which are handy), I have found that 20" barrels are a good compromise between portability and velocity for my uses in 308 and 556 ARs. 20" is a compromise in 5.56 for velocity? Yes. Are you not aware that longer barrel lengths generally equal more velocity? |
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Posted: 10/6/2014 4:02:12 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I might have to retool my theory then. I have a notion that those who insist the only real rifle is a 20" with irons and no accessories would also be part of the shotgun mafia for home defense. I thought your post might give me an insight but I was off the mark in my initial assumptions. Thanks for the reply! Science just happened bitches. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
People on both sides of the argument are way too concerned about what other people think. Just use what you like and don't worry about anyone else. We all have different needs, preferences and what not. I prefer a 20" rifle. I like the way it looks, I like the way it feels. I like the long handguard and fixed stock. I feel cramped up on a carbine. I'm not using it for home defense, so I'll take the velocity, softer recoil, greater sight radius when I shoot irons, etc. Would it be fair to say you prefer a 20" AR and use a shotgun for home defense? I'm doing a scientific study and your honest reply would be most appreciated. I have a theory and your reply could help disprove or buttress it. I use a handgun with a WML for HD. I like the idea of an AR for HD use, but it's not feasible for us here in CA. I might have to retool my theory then. I have a notion that those who insist the only real rifle is a 20" with irons and no accessories would also be part of the shotgun mafia for home defense. I thought your post might give me an insight but I was off the mark in my initial assumptions. Thanks for the reply! Science just happened bitches. I never said anything about only a 20" being a "real rifle". I also said nothing about irons or accessories. I prefer a pistol for HD to keep a hand free, making it more likely to actually be picked up and used to investigate bumps in the night than a shotgun or rifle that requires two hands, and is more likely to be left. I have reasons for what I do, but don't tell anyone their own reasons are wrong. My 20" is an A4 clone. Acog, rails, BUIS, the works. If you're trying to do "science" you shouldn't have so many assumptions. |
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Posted: 10/6/2014 4:08:14 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I never said anything about only a 20" being a "real rifle". I also said nothing about irons or accessories. I prefer a pistol for HD to keep a hand free, making it more likely to actually be picked up and used to investigate bumps in the night than a shotgun or rifle that requires two hands, and is more likely to be left. I have reasons for what I do, but don't tell anyone their own reasons are wrong. My 20" is an A4 clone. Acog, rails, BUIS, the works. If you're trying to do "science" you shouldn't have so many assumptions. Cool your jets Han Solo, I'm messing with you. And if you re-read my post I said I have a theory about those who insist 20" ARs are the only real ARs, not that you claimed such. |
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Posted: 10/6/2014 4:11:05 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Its the "Cool Aid" factor, I'd guess. My goto is an A2 20in. |
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Posted: 10/6/2014 4:11:12 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes. Are you not aware that longer barrel lengths generally equal more velocity? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Although I have short barreled ARs (which are handy), I have found that 20" barrels are a good compromise between portability and velocity for my uses in 308 and 556 ARs. 20" is a compromise in 5.56 for velocity? Yes. Are you not aware that longer barrel lengths generally equal more velocity? Are you not aware of the minimal gains in velocity beyond 16"? |
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Posted: 10/6/2014 4:11:47 PM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I never said anything about only a 20" being a "real rifle". I also said nothing about irons or accessories. I prefer a pistol for HD to keep a hand free, making it more likely to actually be picked up and used to investigate bumps in the night than a shotgun or rifle that requires two hands, and is more likely to be left. I have reasons for what I do, but don't tell anyone their own reasons are wrong. My 20" is an A4 clone. Acog, rails, BUIS, the works. If you're trying to do "science" you shouldn't have so many assumptions. Cool your jets Han Solo, I'm messing with you. And if you re-read my post I said I have a theory about those who insist 20" ARs are the only real ARs, not that you claimed such. Your theory makes sense I guess. They're both a more "traditional" setup/platform than using a newer style carbine with newer optics and accessory options, so it makes sense that the same type of people would prefer both. |
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Posted: 10/6/2014 4:12:29 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Are you not aware of the minimal gains in velocity beyond 16"? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Although I have short barreled ARs (which are handy), I have found that 20" barrels are a good compromise between portability and velocity for my uses in 308 and 556 ARs. 20" is a compromise in 5.56 for velocity? Yes. Are you not aware that longer barrel lengths generally equal more velocity? Are you not aware of the minimal gains in velocity beyond 16"? Lol
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Posted: 10/6/2014 4:15:51 PM EDT
[#39]
a1 config for me. Lighter and longer is moar better.
You young whippersnappers with your 16 inch pimped up collapsible-stocks and vfg's crack me up. 
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Posted: 10/6/2014 4:27:37 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Get stronger. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I think it is because back in the day after the A2 was phased in most civlian 20" barrels were HBAR. In case you have never humped a 20" HBAR, it fucking sucks balls. the A1 barrel is great tho. but anyway for a 30 year period most 20" barrels were HBAR and that is why they fell out of favor. This. I use my 20" HBAR for shooting coyotes. If a friend bitches about the weight, I tell him to quit being a pussy. I want a dust cover for it that says "NO PUSSIES". |
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Posted: 10/6/2014 4:27:41 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
a1 config for me. Lighter and longer is moar better.
You young whippersnappers with your 16 inch pimped up collapsible-stocks and vfg's crack me up. Yeah, those guys over in Iraq and Afghanistan racking up more kills than the plague are really just gear queers aren't they? I'm sure the guys over there doing the real killing are using M16As, M14s, and maybe a few Garands. 
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Posted: 10/6/2014 4:29:32 PM EDT
[#42]
I wasn't a fan of the musket when I first got in, and I was glad when I didn't have to carry one anymore.
That being said, the old 1/12 barrels with 55gr ammo... wow. Google the images, it's pretty nasty. |
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Posted: 10/6/2014 4:32:07 PM EDT
[#43]
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Posted: 10/6/2014 4:46:43 PM EDT
[#44]
I love this place.
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Posted: 10/6/2014 5:10:34 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This. I use my 20" HBAR for shooting coyotes. If a friend bitches about the weight, I tell him to quit being a pussy. I want a dust cover for it that says "NO PUSSIES". Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I think it is because back in the day after the A2 was phased in most civlian 20" barrels were HBAR. In case you have never humped a 20" HBAR, it fucking sucks balls. the A1 barrel is great tho. but anyway for a 30 year period most 20" barrels were HBAR and that is why they fell out of favor. This. I use my 20" HBAR for shooting coyotes. If a friend bitches about the weight, I tell him to quit being a pussy. I want a dust cover for it that says "NO PUSSIES". Pfft. You must have girly arms. 
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Posted: 10/6/2014 6:41:02 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thats due more to the red sun in Afghanistan than thing else. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
shouldn't engagement distances dictate the barrel length used? a 14.5" M4 and a 20 M16A4 are pretty much equally accurate over 300m but its the effectiveness of the 5.56mm round thats reduced with the lower velocities. i read AARs of operations in Iraq where it was stated that most engagements were under 100m, with many at 25m. at these ranges the M4 works fine. however with operations in Afghanistan, engagements moved to much greater distances due to the terrain. it seems ass-backward to move to a shorter barrel rifle as engagements distances increase, when your primary round is so dependent on velocity for its effectiveness. this time of moving to a shorter barrel + longer ranges also seems to be when more complaints about the 5.56mm 'stopping power' at long range started coming out Thats due more to the red sun in Afghanistan than thing else. That damn red afghan sun..... |
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Posted: 10/6/2014 6:49:19 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hey Tim. What did your response have to do with my post? I never said you couldn't make hits at range with a 14.5"bbl. Explosive frag makes the hits you make moar gooder. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Velocity by itself doesn't mean much. You either make enough to frag or you don't. A longer barrel increases the range at which 5.56mm can be expected to frag reliably. At 100m, a 14.5" bbl makes plenty of velocity for explosive fragmentation. At 300m, I would want something longer. At what range does one become unshot if I use a 14.5? Hey Tim. What did your response have to do with my post? I never said you couldn't make hits at range with a 14.5"bbl. Explosive frag makes the hits you make moar gooder. A 20" barrel shooting M193 is out of it's "reliable fragmentation range" at about 225m max anyway. IIRC M855 is even less. What is that about 300m again? |
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Posted: 10/6/2014 6:53:02 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Can you butt stroke somebody effectively with a collapsible stock without breaking the receiver extension? While I've never payed much attention to anything you say in normal GD threads, anytime you post in a GD thread regarding firearms (especially this and the 9mm FBI report thread), your replies always come out looking like: 
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