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Posted: 3/14/2022 2:07:48 PM EDT
[#1]
It's the same principle as folding side mirrors on a pickup, just makes it so you can park them closer together.
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Posted: 3/14/2022 2:10:40 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's the same principle as folding side mirrors on a pickup, just makes it so you can park them closer together. brilliant! |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 2:11:25 PM EDT
[#3]
I *think* the answer is that modern simulation modeling and FEA have given engineers the ability to better understand the compromises they're making with a specific wing-shape.
That and combined with new materials science have enabled modern delta wings that do not possess the low-speed tradeoffs of 80's delta wings. And newer materials further equalize the tradeoff. .... but, that's a guess. I have no info. In for @AeroEngineer |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 2:12:29 PM EDT
[#4]
Wings straight, good takeoff and landing performance.
Wings swept? Going fast and looking cool. Also can be handy for storage on a ship. The move towards lifting body fuselages, blending the aspects of wings and the rest of the aircraft made such things obsolete. Variable geometry also has an annoying habit of creating very expensive to maintain aircraft. |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 2:12:55 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I *think* the answer is that modern simulation modeling and FEA have given engineers the ability to better understand the compromises they're making with a specific wing-shape. That and combined with new materials science have enabled modern delta wings that do not possess the low-speed tradeoffs of 80's delta wings. And newer materials further equalize the tradeoff. .... but, that's a guess. I have no info. In for @AeroEngineer Also...I am dissapointed in the lack of connards on the current Attack turbine aircraft The mUdHeN Would look much better with cannards |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 2:14:19 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Also...I am dissapointed in the lack of connards on the current Attack turbine aircraft The mUdHeN Would look much better with cannards They famously did make at least one F-15 with canards. It turned out to be one of the many cases where the juice was not worth the squeeze. |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 2:14:46 PM EDT
[#7]
On defense projects (such as fighters), the contractor needs to build in a bunch of complexity to charge more money, so that the investors can buy boats and islands and stuff.
Back in the old days, that complexity was built into the mechanical design. In the 21st century, it's easier to build it into the software. |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 2:15:19 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I *think* the answer is that modern simulation modeling and FEA have given engineers the ability to better understand the compromises they're making with a specific wing-shape. That and combined with new materials science have enabled modern delta wings that do not possess the low-speed tradeoffs of 80's delta wings. And newer materials further equalize the tradeoff. .... but, that's a guess. I have no info. In for @AeroEngineer I don't do fixed wing aircraft, I do space vehicles only. But I am a SME on FEA, and yes, for pretty much anything related to things that fly, there is a rabbit hole of specialized finite element analysis that will be used to evaluate design trades. |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 2:15:51 PM EDT
[#9]
The original concept was that wings swept back reduced drag allowing for higher speeds while wings extended allowed for lower stall speeds and tighter maneuvers at low speeds.
I'd imagine there are several reasons for modern fighters moving away from this. Fixed wings can be good for 90%+ of real world situations, newer wing/fuselage designs are more advanced, variable wings are a big maintenance/complexity cost, and I don't think variable wings work well with making aircraft stealth. |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 2:18:30 PM EDT
[#10]
Swept wing goes back to the Messerschmidt Me M262. Helps manage shockwave compression buildup approaching mach 1. Straight wing has higher lift, more drag.
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Posted: 3/14/2022 2:19:07 PM EDT
[#11]
An Su-22 showing off its wings.
 Attached FileIt's like I can hear the parts creaking against each other. |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 2:20:22 PM EDT
[#12]
Remember back in the day they were going for speed.. but then also realized at some point they needed maneuverability.. also notice that most of those are Mach 2+ capable... so it was just the final evolution in the more faster era.
Now noticed that most of todays modern aircraft are not mach 2 capable. I think someone crunched the numbers and realized that you dont need mach 2 capable planes for combat.. that and advances in aerodynamics and the need to simplify systems as cost and maintenance control lead to it. Thats my theory and im sticking too it. |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 2:20:26 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wings straight, good takeoff and landing performance. Wings swept? Going fast and looking cool. Also can be handy for storage on a ship. The move towards lifting body fuselages, blending the aspects of wings and the rest of the aircraft made such things obsolete. Variable geometry also has an annoying habit of creating very expensive to maintain aircraft. |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 2:41:21 PM EDT
[#14]
American Bell X5, an upgraded version of the World War II-era German model Messerschmitt P.1101, which was taken from the Luftwaffe at the end of the conflict.
 Flying with Secret Nazi Technology - Bell X-5 |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 2:43:01 PM EDT
[#15]
It was all the coke and hair spray. It messed with their minds.
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Posted: 3/14/2022 2:49:37 PM EDT
[#16]
In short and over simplified... Variable geometry wings offered the best of all worlds aerodynamically but at a huge weight cost. Which is why they have fallen out of favor.
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Posted: 3/14/2022 2:54:47 PM EDT
[#17]
The folding wings allowed the planes to fly low and slow with them open, and fly supersonic with them closed.
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Posted: 3/14/2022 2:56:46 PM EDT
[#18]
IIRC the B-1 uses a 50 inch Titanium pin for the pivot, you know where most of the world's titanium comes from, right?
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Posted: 3/14/2022 2:58:30 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They famously did make at least one F-15 with canards. It turned out to be one of the many cases where the juice was not worth the squeeze. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Also...I am dissapointed in the lack of connards on the current Attack turbine aircraft The mUdHeN Would look much better with cannards They famously did make at least one F-15 with canards. It turned out to be one of the many cases where the juice was not worth the squeeze.  McDonnell Douglas F-15 STOL/MTD |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 2:58:39 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted: all the new stuff don't have no sweep wing. F-22 F35 mUdHeN F-18, F-16 FIGHTING FALCONE! Does it have to do with Fly By wire, better control computers and getter wing design because we got dem puters now with the fancy softwar? I guess engineering is not your thing, what a relief. |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 3:16:19 PM EDT
[#21]
Air Strategy has changed. Statistics over decades showed aircraft were never engaging in combat at the limits of their speed, so range become more of a priority than topend speed. The added weight, complexity, and downtime of swept wings seemed to offer little except improved time to target speed, a benefit negated by improved early warning systems, missiles, and SAM's.
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Posted: 3/14/2022 3:18:07 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted: all the new stuff don't have no sweep wing. F-22 F35 mUdHeN F-18, F-16 FIGHTING FALCONE! Does it have to do with Fly By wire, better control computers and getter wing design because we got dem puters now with the fancy softwar? The FB-111 was one of the first fly-by-wire planes. I had a Captain as a boss back in the early 1990’s whose FB-111 must have had a wire chafing issue.  Attached FileOne of the stabilators (circled in red) was activating on its own. Let’s say his FB-111 wanted to roll to the right. So my boss kept putting in left stick….until there was no more left stick to give. Then…I guess…that stabilator just sheared off completely. The plane rolled over inverted, and that’s when he pulled the ejection handle. Fun fact #1: the FB-111 ejects as a capsule Fun fact #2: said capsule would usually casually float down to the ground under two chutes, but according to my old boss, the cable for one of the chutes runs down the center strip in the windshield. As such it is prone to rusting. So their capsule returned quite hard back to earth under just one chute. His right seater broke his back but lived. My old boss also injured his back, and they moved him to C-5’s during Desert Shield/Desert Storm. Anywhoooo…. My best guess is that whole swing-wing thing is to have a lower stall speed, so on final approach the plane is slower. I would have to look at the Tornado’s “feet”, but I would imagine that landing on the autobahn or on improvised grass runways was engineered into it as a possibility. Again, having a lower stall speed or being able to rotate at a lower speed on takeoff saves wear snd tear on the landing gear/tires. |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 3:21:53 PM EDT
[#23]
Wings out = good low speed performance.
Wings in/swept back = good high speed performance. |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 3:29:16 PM EDT
[#24]
They figured out how to get most of the benefits with fixed wings later on, and were able to cut out the weight and complexity of having all the hardware needed to move the wings, point pylons straight ahead as the wing moves, etc. Then they added weight and complexity to other places because why not?
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Posted: 3/14/2022 3:38:55 PM EDT
[#25]
The fundamental reason is to increase the critical Mach number of the wing when swept to reduce drag.
Everything else is a compromise to accommodate the mechanism. The F-15 SMTD was strictly a research airplane and would have never been proposed for production. The canards are from a legacy F-18, so maybe it's really a modified F-18 test vehicle! |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 3:42:20 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The fundamental reason is to increase the critical Mach number of the wing when swept to reduce drag. Everything else is a compromise to accommodate the mechanism. You can do that with a fixed swept wing, but it will have high take off and landing speeds as well as poor low speed maneuverability. Swing wings allow good low speed handling instead of being a one trick pony. |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 3:44:38 PM EDT
[#27]
The difference is simulation.
With Finite Element Analysis and Computation Fluid Design they are able to make wings that give enough lift at low speed and yet handle supersonic and the transitions. |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 3:44:50 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You can do that with a fixed swept wing, but it will have high take off and landing speeds as well as poor low speed maneuverability. Swing wings allow good low speed handling instead of being a one trick pony. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The fundamental reason is to increase the critical Mach number of the wing when swept to reduce drag. Everything else is a compromise to accommodate the mechanism. You can do that with a fixed swept wing, but it will have high take off and landing speeds as well as poor low speed maneuverability. Swing wings allow good low speed handling instead of being a one trick pony. ?? Who would've thought ... |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 3:49:22 PM EDT
[#29]
Fun fact:
The very first microprocessor in the world was designed and made for the wing sweep in the F-14 Tomcat. |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 3:52:42 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Fun fact: The very first microprocessor in the world was designed and made for the wing sweep in the F-14 Tomcat. I heard somewhere that they showed the guy who defected in a Mig-25 to Japan an F-14 he just straight up said. "Yeah... The Soviet Union couldn't build something like this." |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 3:52:47 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: IIRC the B-1 uses a 50 inch Titanium pin for the pivot, you know where most of the world's titanium comes from, right? Correct. It was cooled with liquid nitrogen (or something like that) prior to insertion. It would then expand to fit. During production of the first B-1B at plant 42 in Palmdale, the pin was inserted upside down! To remove it, the same process was applied in reverse, and, surprisingly, it came out easily. |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 3:56:13 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: IIRC the B-1 uses a 50 inch Titanium pin for the pivot, you know where most of the world's titanium comes from, right? Quite a bit comes from Florida, actually. |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 3:56:40 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: On defense projects (such as fighters), the contractor needs to build in a bunch of complexity to charge more money, so that the investors can buy boats and islands and stuff. Back in the old days, that complexity was built into the mechanical design. In the 21st century, it's easier to build it into the software.  Attached File |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 6:54:58 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Correct. It was cooled with liquid nitrogen (or something like that) prior to insertion. It would then expand to fit. During production of the first B-1B at plant 42 in Palmdale, the pin was inserted upside down! To remove it, the same process was applied in reverse, and, surprisingly, it came out easily. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: IIRC the B-1 uses a 50 inch Titanium pin for the pivot, you know where most of the world's titanium comes from, right? Correct. It was cooled with liquid nitrogen (or something like that) prior to insertion. It would then expand to fit. During production of the first B-1B at plant 42 in Palmdale, the pin was inserted upside down! To remove it, the same process was applied in reverse, and, surprisingly, it came out easily. |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 7:30:44 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wings straight, good takeoff and landing performance. Wings swept? Going fast and looking cool. Also can be handy for storage on a ship. The move towards lifting body fuselages, blending the aspects of wings and the rest of the aircraft made such things obsolete. Variable geometry also has an annoying habit of creating very expensive to maintain aircraft.  F-111 Aardvark: A Jet Fighter Assassin In this video he points out that the F105 was fast AF, but needed over a mile of runway. The F111 could take off from considerably shorter fields. |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 7:39:08 PM EDT
[#36]
in the words of Clarkson.
SPEEEEEEED.  no longer done because its basically stupid and impossible to think you can outrun a missile, its better to just be impossible to target. so fuel economy, stealth and maneuverability took over. the foldy cool swept wing stuff was a solution that didn't fit reality. |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 7:41:07 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSBzKfXK9MgIn this video he points out that the F105 was fast AF, but needed over a mile of runway. The F111 could take off from considerably shorter fields. I was never a fan of the F-111 until I heard the fighter pilot podcast episode about it. (Curiously enough their episode on the F-14 killed my last bit of fanboyishness for that aircraft.) They made the 111 sound like a ton of fun. Like the closest thing an Air Force has flown to the Space Cruiser from Rick and Morty. |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 7:50:12 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I *think* the answer is that modern simulation modeling and FEA have given engineers the ability to better understand the compromises they're making with a specific wing-shape. That and combined with new materials science have enabled modern delta wings that do not possess the low-speed tradeoffs of 80's delta wings. And newer materials further equalize the tradeoff. .... but, that's a guess. I have no info. In for @AeroEngineer Add to all that computers helping to fly the plane and keep it stable. |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 7:52:33 PM EDT
[#39]
All other replies are wrong.
Recruitment planning. Without the Tomcat Top Gun wouldn’t have been. We all know how that movie helped recruitment and ghey volleyball.
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Posted: 3/14/2022 8:02:17 PM EDT
[#40]
We did it to make the test pilots work harder.
 Actual Tomcat test flight. |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 8:10:38 PM EDT
[#41]
Swept wings are straight ahead speed
Wings straight out is maneuverability. The weight and complexity and cost and everything else with the engineering that would move and lock the wing, meant they weren't getting as much bang for their buck. I specifically thought the F-14 was very heavy as a result of the additional weight. |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 8:16:56 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We did it to make the test pilots work harder. https://theaviationist.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/F-14-asymmetric.jpg Actual Tomcat test flight. Im not pilot but i would think that asymmetrical wings would be harder to steer unless you like circles |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 8:19:37 PM EDT
[#43]
All Pre-fly-by-wire aircraft. Yes, all of those aircraft had flight computers, but they were more the 'assist' kind. Current systems have no mechanical controls between the pilot and the flight control surfaces.
Current aircraft designs can be unstable but with flight control computers flying (the pilot just tells the plane where to go with the controls - the 1s and 0s are converted and the flight computer tells the aerodynamic surfaces what to do), you don't need to attempt odd designs like variable wing designs. Modern aircraft design / simulation / etc are also a contributing factor, along with new vectored thrust technology (F-22); in general I guess you could say 'modern computers' as a general answer. 
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Posted: 3/14/2022 8:24:00 PM EDT
[#44]
We struggled for quite a few years to figure out what the optimal wing design should be. By the late 1950's the everyone started looking at variable geometry, thinking this would be the answer. While it was successful, it was a huge maintenance issue and it doesn't work well with stealth
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Posted: 3/14/2022 8:25:24 PM EDT
[#45]
Computer augmeted flight controls can now fly closer to the edge of the flight envolope than swing wing planes without the weight of the swing box.
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Posted: 3/14/2022 8:28:36 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I *think* the answer is that modern simulation modeling and FEA have given engineers the ability to better understand the compromises they're making with a specific wing-shape. That and combined with new materials science have enabled modern delta wings that do not possess the low-speed tradeoffs of 80's delta wings. And newer materials further equalize the tradeoff. .... but, that's a guess. I have no info. In for @AeroEngineer that and independently digitally controlled flight controls. The ailerons are no longer connected to each other, same with the elevators / stabilizers and maneuvering automatic slats that are independently controlled. When that Israeli F-15 lost a wing in a midair ( and the US one in a separate accident with half a wing), it was able to come back and land without a wing because the stabilizer on that side became the independent wing on that side and the other flight controls independently compensated for the change in the center of lift. 
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Posted: 3/14/2022 8:31:14 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The FB-111 was one of the first fly-by-wire planes. I had a Captain as a boss back in the early 1990’s whose FB-111 must have had a wire chafing issue. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/369122/FC0BE058-948F-4EAD-BB2A-CF39DE4473F0_jpe-2313252.JPG One of the stabilators (circled in red) was activating on its own. Let’s say his FB-111 wanted to roll to the right. So my boss kept putting in left stick….until there was no more left stick to give. Then…I guess…that stabilator just sheared off completely. The plane rolled over inverted, and that’s when he pulled the ejection handle. Fun fact #1: the FB-111 ejects as a capsule Fun fact #2: said capsule would usually casually float down to the ground under two chutes, but according to my old boss, the cable for one of the chutes runs down the center strip in the windshield. As such it is prone to rusting. So their capsule returned quite hard back to earth under just one chute. His right seater broke his back but lived. My old boss also injured his back, and they moved him to C-5’s during Desert Shield/Desert Storm. Anywhoooo…. My best guess is that whole swing-wing thing is to have a lower stall speed, so on final approach the plane is slower. I would have to look at the Tornado’s “feet”, but I would imagine that landing on the autobahn or on improvised grass runways was engineered into it as a possibility. Again, having a lower stall speed or being able to rotate at a lower speed on takeoff saves wear snd tear on the landing gear/tires. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: all the new stuff don't have no sweep wing. F-22 F35 mUdHeN F-18, F-16 FIGHTING FALCONE! Does it have to do with Fly By wire, better control computers and getter wing design because we got dem puters now with the fancy softwar? The FB-111 was one of the first fly-by-wire planes. I had a Captain as a boss back in the early 1990’s whose FB-111 must have had a wire chafing issue. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/369122/FC0BE058-948F-4EAD-BB2A-CF39DE4473F0_jpe-2313252.JPG One of the stabilators (circled in red) was activating on its own. Let’s say his FB-111 wanted to roll to the right. So my boss kept putting in left stick….until there was no more left stick to give. Then…I guess…that stabilator just sheared off completely. The plane rolled over inverted, and that’s when he pulled the ejection handle. Fun fact #1: the FB-111 ejects as a capsule Fun fact #2: said capsule would usually casually float down to the ground under two chutes, but according to my old boss, the cable for one of the chutes runs down the center strip in the windshield. As such it is prone to rusting. So their capsule returned quite hard back to earth under just one chute. His right seater broke his back but lived. My old boss also injured his back, and they moved him to C-5’s during Desert Shield/Desert Storm. Anywhoooo…. My best guess is that whole swing-wing thing is to have a lower stall speed, so on final approach the plane is slower. I would have to look at the Tornado’s “feet”, but I would imagine that landing on the autobahn or on improvised grass runways was engineered into it as a possibility. Again, having a lower stall speed or being able to rotate at a lower speed on takeoff saves wear snd tear on the landing gear/tires. I landed an F-15 with half the right horizontal stabilizer missing. It flew just fine. I didn't even know about it until the post flight. |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 9:20:26 PM EDT
[#48]
My two cents on this topic. I have 1000 hours flying the F/EF-111. You have to remember the time period (Cold War) and the mission for the aircraft (Long Range Interdiction and Nuclear Strike). Also remember the engine technology wasn't as advanced as today. The TF30 was the first after burning turbofan and had it's share of issues. As each model of engine came out thrust was increased from 10,000Mil/16,000AB to 20,000Mil/25,000AB. The sweep wing designed allowed an increased bomb load for the thrust available at the time and then the wing swept aft to 72.5 Degrees allowed for a Delta wing configuration. This allowed for Mach 2.5+ speeds. The plane could not turn for shit but it would go incredibly fast in a straight line. I have personally seen Indicated Airspeeds (IAS) faster than 1100 KIAS and Mach above 1.85+.
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Posted: 3/14/2022 10:59:21 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My two cents on this topic. I have 1000 hours flying the F/EF-111. You have to remember the time period (Cold War) and the mission for the aircraft (Long Range Interdiction and Nuclear Strike). Also remember the engine technology wasn't as advanced as today. The TF30 was the first after burning turbofan and had it's share of issues. As each model of engine came out thrust was increased from 10,000Mil/16,000AB to 20,000Mil/25,000AB. The sweep wing designed allowed an increased bomb load for the thrust available at the time and then the wing swept aft to 72.5 Degrees allowed for a Delta wing configuration. This allowed for Mach 2.5+ speeds. The plane could not turn for shit but it would go incredibly fast in a straight line. I have personally seen Indicated Airspeeds (IAS) faster than 1100 KIAS and Mach above 1.85+. Fun fact for the rest - The F-111 crew escape capsule was manufactured in St. Louis by McDonnell Aircraft. The building is still in use. |
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Posted: 3/14/2022 11:04:56 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I went to the intermediate avionics tech school for F-111, then was sent directly to Langley just ahead of the first airplane. I was really hoping for an assignment to Mountain Home with visions of hunting and fishing. I did not want to go to Thailand. Fun fact for the rest - The F-111 crew escape capsule was manufactured in St. Louis by McDonnell Aircraft. The building is still in use. Didn't know that about the capsule. Cool fact to know. |
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