God doesn't bow to the will of man.  God is WILLING to save sinners.

1 Tim 2: 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.


In fact He doesn't want any to perish.

2 Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

When you understand God's will as shown above (and Calvinists understand Calvinism, not God's will) then John 1:13 isn't a problem.

John 1: 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

(And note in John 1:12 the individual has to RECEIVE Christ - THEIR ACT, THEIR CHOICE.  God does not force it on them, they have to receive Him.)

And yes, according to Calvinism, everything has been preordained to happen by God.

Westminster Confession - the creed of Calvinists:

"God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass"

According to Calvinism "whatsoever comes to pass" is "unchangeably ordained" by God.

And of course, this makes God the monster that atheists love to use as the false construct to reject the true God of the Bible, as we have seen in this thread already.

Your problem is like all the other Calvinists - you know Calvinism but you don't know the Bible.  You aren't taught the Bible.  You are taught the system.

As another member pointed out, Jesus Christ is the true light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world (John 1:9).

Every man has been dealt a measure of faith.

Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

God has given light to every man, and He has dealt a measure of faith to every man.

When a man turns away from the light God gives him, and discards the faith that God dealt to him, God is under no obligation to send a preacher to that man with the gospel.

Romans 1 tells us God has put knowledge of Himself in every man.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.  20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:  21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools

But just because God has given every man light and dealt faith to every man and put knowledge in their brains doesn't mean God forces them against their will.

Continuing in Romans 1:

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Note: THEY - the people the verse is talking about - DID NOT WANT - their choice, not God's - TO RETAIN GOD IN THEIR KNOWLEDGE.

Taking verses out of context isn't a very helpful way to do things. I didn't ask you if God through Christ has made some impression on the mind of all people in the world. I asked you has everyone, including some China man in the year 35 heard the Gospel, so he can exercise his free will and be saved.

Please exegete John 1:13....whose will again is the cause of our salvation?

You are the one taking the verse out of context.  Jesus giving light to every man =/= "Christ has made some impression on the mind of all people in the world" when in fact, there are plenty of people who have never heard the name Jesus Christ.

No, the true Light gives spiritual light to every man whether they have heard the name of Jesus or not.  And every man makes a decision about what they will do with that light given to them.

You didn't exegete John 1:13....WHO'S will caused salvation...I'll wait.

Still no atheist names eh Criley, just those them there atheists who can't stand the idea that God is in complete control of everything. Do you really think that atheists somehow think highly of your incompetent god? Oy vey.

That's right Criley, I don't believe in your god that is evidently doing everything he can on the fly to save all these poor sinners, but just has to hope he can pull together a solid argument on why they should let this incompetent god save them.

Just so you understand that God does ordain all that comes to pass...here one of MANY examples. In Genesis 3:15, God ordained that the seed of the woman would crush the head of the serpent. Thousands of years later that prophesy was fulfilled in Christ. Here another one. Hebrews 1:3 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

"Upholding ALL things by the word of HIS POWER. Uphold what...ALL THINGS. You're taking your next breath because HE so wills it.

And again you err. To be saved you must either believe in the coming messiah or believe in the come messiah. Has everyone heard the Gospel? The OT saints did. Did some Japanese man in the year 1200BC hear the Gospel? How about the Indians in north American in the year 325 BC?

Yeah, "Blindly bend the knee and worship me or suffer for all of eternity!" That seems reasonable.

We found one!

Calvinism doesn't understand Biblical grace or Biblical love.

Calvinists maintain that God saves by grace because there is no merit involved on man's part.  That is true enough, but that doesn't necessitate salvation by grace.  For all a Calvinist knows God could have a giant cage in heaven filled with ping pong balls and every individual soul has a unique identifier on one of the balls, and God could simply select some of the balls and save those souls only.  That isn't salvation by grace.

No, the God of the Bible saves by grace because HE is gracious.  That's His very nature.  And that means He is gracious to ALL, not just some.  Calvinists play games with God's grace.  They will say He is gracious to all because the rain falls on the just and the unjust.  Yeah, but it's not very gracious to let a few raindrops fall on souls for a few short years when you have predetermined that they will spend eternity in a lake of fire wanting a few drops of water to cool their tongues.

I use this example.  There are two people sitting on a curb outside of a convenience store.  It is apparent by their tattered clothes and worn out shoes and dirty skin that they are homeless and poor.  A man in a brand new BMW pulls up to get gas.  He steps out and the cost of the shoes he is wearing could feed them both for months.  He fills his tank and goes in the store.  He comes out with a bag containing one sandwich, one bag of chips and one drink.  He gives the bag to one of the homeless men and looks at the other and says , "Nothing for you."

Another man at the pump next to the BMW asks the man why he did that.  The BMW owner replies, "I just wanted to prove how gracious I am."

I doubt even a Calvinist would call the BMW owner gracious because he obviously is no such thing... if he was actually gracious he would have met both of their obvious needs, not just one.

But that's how the Calvinist God operates - he isn't gracious, he only helps some and not others - and yet they call him gracious.

They have no understanding of grace.

They don't understand love, either.

For a relationship based on love to exist (and that is the relationship God wants with man) choice HAS TO EXIST.  The terms of the relationship have to be mutually acceptable.

If God acted like Calvinists claim - that God's grace is irresistible - then it isn't love at all.  In fact, it is self-love.  If a robot is programmed to "love" it's maker then it's really the programmer loving himself by how he programmed his robot.

God didn't make robots or puppets.

Men have a choice and they can enter into a loving relationship with God because it's God's will, and God has made that relationship possible.

But He doesn't force anyone into that relationship.

It's our choice to respond to His offer.

And what does Paul say that sinners do with whatever light they receive? Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness,

What do sinners do with the light they receive...well, they hold the truth in unrighteousness, that's all they ever do, that's all they can do. Why? because they hate God, they hate Christ. Again you completely undermine the problem of sin and how REALLY bad it is and undone we truly are....Sinners are dead to God until God does something...your Christianity is nothing but self salvation.

You know making up stupid things and blindly asserting them is well, just dumb.

Yes, I do.

Yep, Criley is wiser, more spiritual than his poor stupid unwise neighbor who rejected Christ. PRIDE, Look I chose wisely.

Haven't  read the entire thread,  but my vote is dyed in the wool Liberals.

Straight to hell.

Then stop doing it. Nobody is "blindly" believing God...He's given us His word to enlighten us.

Well, faith is basically a strong belief in something absent any proof. You might object to my use of the term "blindly", but that's about what it amounts to. I have nothing against people who have faith, but I do take exception to condescending those who lack faith in a particular god and threatening them with eternal damnation. Btw, almost 2 billion muslims have been given Allah's word and they think they're the enlightened ones. /shrug

All I'll say to this drivel is Romans 8:7 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

The carnal mind is enmity against God...intense hatred. And neither can it submit to God. But somehow the carnal mind can now become a spiritual mind by what? Free will. But the verse says that the carnal mind CAN NOT submit to God. That's ok, free will is the answer. It's a most and ultimate gracious act of God to change the carnal mind into spiritual mind. To raise the lifeless dead person who is a hater of God.

Idolatry, which is Islam is, is high treason against Christ. You can believe yourself or Christ. I know whom I have believed.

Fair enough, you're certainly entitled to your beliefs. I'm not a fan of Islam either, so we have that much in common at least.

Christians know that Jesus was the Messiah, Jews know that Jesus was not the Messiah, Muslims know that Mohamed was the true Prophet.  The Greeks knew, the Romans knew, the Egyptians knew, the Aztecs knew, Mormons know, Amish know, African tribes know. All religions know they are right. "Knowing" your religion is true means nothing to an outsider.

Are you able to step back and imagine how absurd they all are to those who are not indoctrinated in them? If you are objective, are your Bible stories any less silly than Mohammed flying to Paradise on a winged horse or the world riding on the back of a giant turtle?

Why should rational adults believe inanities without evidence?

You're looking at it backward, Hell is the default destination for every human being because of our sinful nature. Christ took our Hell on the cross and forgave us our sins so that we wouldn't Have to go there.

Jesus suffered the cross for one reason- To keep us out of the place we were destined to go to without Him

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

What evidence is there that any of that is true?

The evidence is found in his word. He has given us all the information we need and it's all contained in His inerrant, infallible, eternal word.
You are free to believe or reject that information

I have a pet dragon. I keep him in my garage. You have my inerrant, infallible, eternal word. You are free to believe or reject that information.

See how that works?

(This is where you might either reject my story as absurd or ask to see the dragon.)

Make it a matter of drowning then...

Who can never be saved from drowning

Those who refuse rescue...or in their arrogance believe in their own ability to save themselves?

Those who are obsessed with the drowning others maybe? I dunno.


Anybody can be most won't according to the bible.

Yes, he was real.

A long haired, anti-establishment, peace loving hippie with two fathers. He wasn’t crucified because he was some holy mythical being. He was crucified because he spoke out against the ruling class. Not really that uncommon.

He also wasn’t born to a virgin. Mary was a whore. Joseph was the original cuck.

Nothing in the bible was written by god.

It’s a collection of writings by random men who lived thousands of years ago. Based on things they saw or things that were told to them through generations and generations before them. And you have no way of knowing if literally any of it is actually what they wrote. It was thousands of years ago and has been passed down and for long periods was controlled by governments/kings/emperors.

There have been tens of thousands of revisions to the bible. There are hundreds of contradictions within it. There is nothing inerrant or infallible about it.

Within 4 verses is out of context to you? lol

John 1:12 states salvation is through belief. The offer is made to all. God effects salvation based on belief.
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name.

received : Strong's G2983 Greek lambano definition: to receive what is offered.

John 1:13 declares that change can not be made through earthly means.
Children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
some examples:
"I must be elect, my daddy and pawpaw were Calvinists, Baptists, Lutherans...!"
"I must be elect, look at all my fruits & good works!"
"I must be elect, reverend Brylcreem from the TV said the anointing was on me!"

As far as China goes... probably another coincidence.
3min 10 sec long.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hM7jcOY2xHM

Ummmm.

They're called Democrats.

End thread.

And again, if you knew the Bible instead of Calvinism you would know that receiving Christ instead of rejecting Him is reasonable.

Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

If a sinner is willing to reason with God he can have his sins forgiven.

And here we see the Calvinist, who believes He is chosen by God to be saved while others are predetermined to go to hell, call other people prideful because they reject the man-made system of Calvinism.
 
Taking God up on His offer to forgive sins is hardly prideful.

But it is reasonable.

Calvinism is unbiblical.  And it's pure pride. "I am chosen by God and you're not!"

All you do is prove what I said is correct.  You have no understanding of God's grace or God's love.

But you will quote a verse that is directed toward saved souls - that's who is being addressed in Romans 8.

Saved souls can have carnal minds.  Case in point - saved souls who subscribe to Calvinism and refuse to allow the scripture to correct their beliefs.

1 Cor 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? 4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

You can also include in this group those who say, "I am of Calvin."

They are carnal, and enemies of the cross.

When Jesus went to the cross He, by the grace of God, tasted death for every man.

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

But the Calvinist denies that truth, and claims that Jesus only died for his group, not for all sinners.

This thread is like a really boring D&D game.

It’s entertaining when the nutters leave their safe space and come here to feel outraged and victimized, but then it usually devolves into them arguing with each other over picayune dogmatic trivia with walls of text.  

God does no such thing and you are so bent on defending the indefensible you can't understand the ramifications of the statement you just made.

But atheists do understand it, and one in this thread has cited it.  That poster said if God did exist free-will is basically an illusion and God endorses everything that occurs.  For all practical purposes that pretty much describes Calvinism in a nutshell.

Your statement, and the teaching of Calvinism make God responsible for every child that is molested, every woman that is raped and every person that is murdered.  And atheists, just like the one in this thread, use that false construct to reject the God of the Bible.  

The God of the Bible is nothing like the God of Calvinism.

The sins that occur in the world are not because God "from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass."

No, those sins occurred because of man's will not because of God pre-ordaining them to happen.

This doesn't mean that God's plan will not come to pass.  He is going to bring this world, and the present creation to an end.  It will be replaced with a world that has no end, with a new heavens and a new earth and everyone that dwells with God in the new heavens and new earth will have a nature that is no longer contrary to God - just as God tells us in the last book of the Bible.  He tells us what is going to happen.

That doesn't mean that God has predetermined everything that comes to pass.

That doesn’t make sense.  

If God were all powerful (which of course he is), he would simply do away with hell completely,

He also wouldn’t need Jesus to suffer on the cross to do so.  He’d just be able to do what he wanted.

<<< believes in God, does not believe in hell

Even fallen man understands that justice demands punishment for certain actions - some acts even deserve the death penalty.

Lots of sinners want a God who isn't just and doesn't punish evil.

But that is not the God of the Bible.

For God to forgive a sinner those acts that deserve punishment still have to be dealt with.  For God to reconcile the books, so to speak, the penalty for those sins must be meted out.

Because God is gracious, He takes the penalty upon Himself in order for that sin debt to be paid.

Those who desire to be reconciled to their Creator can do so - by trusting what God did for them.

Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, he was buried, and the third day he rose again from the dead.

Believe the truth and be forgiven, or reject God's offer and face God's justice and the penalty that comes with it.

Edit:  I don’t want to accidentally come across as debating or disrespecting someone’s religion. I just believe slightly different things.

Does God have free will or do humans?  If you answer both, who wins when wills disagree?
Does someone born to a Muslim family in Egypt have the same chance at accepting the gospel as me, born in America to strong Christian parents? If not, why do I have a better shot?
If God let’s man have ultimate free will, how can things end the way He wants?
If Jesus died for everyone’s sins, all of them, why doesn’t the sin of unbelief get wiped clean? Because it is a sin....
If Jesus died for everyone’s sin then why does He say this is my blood which is given for many?  Why not say all?
Does God know the decision you will make before you are born?  If so, is it not cruel to let you be born, knowing you will reject Him and be damned, and that your existence served no purpose? If not, how can He be an unknowing God?

If these are merely philosophical questions and not Biblical ones, then there are no answers, just varying opinions.

But if the questions are about the God of the Bible then the Bible is the source of the answers.

Do humans have the ability to choose without God predetermining the choice?  The Biblical answer is certainly yes.

Deut 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Jesus speaking: Mat 23: 37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!


How can things end the way God wants?  In some respects they don't.

Ezek 18: 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

2 Pet 3: 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Mat 25: 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

But things will end as God said they will because although God gives men the ability to make choices He still makes them face the consequences of those decisions.  They can't escape them.  And so, souls who refuse God's mercy love and grace - they refuse to turn or repent as stated in Ezek 18: 31 and 2 Pet 3:9 - end up in the lake fire that was prepared for the devil and his angels.  It wasn't prepared for men, but they end up there because of the choices they made.

Just as those who chose to reject God's mercy love and grace receive judgment condemnation and wrath as a consequence of that choice, those who choose to humble themselves and believe God escape judgement condemnation and wrath and receive mercy love and grace as a result of their choice.  

Regarding the last question, I believe you meant to say "all knowing" instead of "unknowing."

I'll repeat it again - philosophical question or Biblical question?

If it's a Bible question the Bible answers whether or not God is "all knowing."

Jer 19: 3 And say, Hear ye the word of the LORD, O kings of Judah, and inhabitants of Jerusalem; Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, the which whosoever heareth, his ears shall tingle. 4 Because they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah, and have filled this place with the blood of innocents; 5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind

It is explicitly stated in the Bible that it never entered into God's mind that Jews would offer their children as burnt offerings to idols like the heathen did.

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.9For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Sinful deeds did not originate in the mind of God, which is where they would have originated if God knew all the heinous acts of men before they occurred.  His ways are higher and His thoughts are higher.

But, most people are not going to let what the Bible says change their preconceived notions about God.

I think the adage is, God created man in His own image and man returned the favor.

Unbelief is a sin.  And it is forgiven.  Very few people believe the gospel the very first time they hear it.

When they fail to believe what is that but unbelief?  

But, if they later turn to God and believe the gospel that sin of unbelief is forgiven.  But if they refuse to repent and believe the gospel then none of their sins are forgiven, including the unbelief.

The last question attempts to manufacture a contradiction that doesn't exist.  "Many" and "all" are not contradictory terms depending on context.  When Steve Martin took "all" of his audience to McDonald's for hamburgers that was "many" people.  I guess he realized that because after ordering "all" those "many" hamburgers he changed the order to one bag of fries.

And so, because the Bible uses the words "many" and "all" when stating that Jesus died for sinners, there is no contradiction.  When His blood is shed for all, when He died for all, that is certainly many.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

1 Tim 4: 10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.


Heb 2: 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

All of this intellectual opinion and not one bit of Scripture. Guess your opinion and examples provide better clarification than God's Word does. On top of my sarcasm, I'll just leave you with John 15:16.

No scripture?  Funny you choose this post.  My guess is I have quoted more scripture in my posts than all the other posters combined.

Reasonable people can use their common sense to see that an unbiblical, man-made system is dead wrong - with what the Bible calls earthly things ....  like the examples that were given: that a man will feed one hungry man while refusing to help the other hungry man sitting right next to him "to show how gracious he is" actually shows he is anything but gracious.  And programming a robot to act in a certain way is anything but actual love.  It's the programmer loving himself through his robot.

Those are earthly examples of how Calvinism's god operates.  Calvinism's grace is not grace at all.  Calvinism's love is not love at all.

Jesus used those very kinds of examples Himself.

John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

If the discussion had been about some secular matter and I used those examples to show that the BMW man wasn't really gracious and the programmer programing a robot wasn't real love you would have agreed.  But since it shows the weakness of your chosen system you won't let common sense affect you.

Regarding John 15:16... 16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Does the name "Judas" ring a bell?  He was one of those "chosen" ones. There is a big difference in what "chosen"means in the Bible and what "chosen" means in Calvinism.

Taking "proof texts" out of context might have an impact on those ignorant of what the Bible actually teaches.   They won't fool those who know the Bible.

Calvinism does attract prideful people - they get to claim to be God's "chosen." (Even when they have no idea what the word means Biblically.)

Interesting that you chose that verse.

(When Calvinists go after their critics don't they realize that said critics were supposedly preordained by God to voice that exact criticism of Calvinism from eternity past according to God's supposedly unchangable will?

And by criticizing the critics of Calvinism they are indirectly criticizing the God who supposedly preordained the criticism of their system?

Obviously not.  They neither comprehend nor follow their own system.  If they did the reply to the critic of Calvinism would be: "Praise God.  You stated just what God preordained you to say.")

That's an interesting way of putting it that I've never really considered. I guess my big disconnect is with the requirement of salvation being true belief.. I'd like to believe, sure - but nothing I've ever heard, read, or experienced has provided me with even the slightest bit of faith. I'm not just going to fake it and hope for the best - I'm pretty sure if God exists he'll know I'm just being patronizing. But at the same time I suppose I'm resentful - again if God does exist - that He made me incapable of accepting the only gift that would save me from the Hell that - let's be honest - He presumably created and destined us all to in the first place.

Yeah, but the evil actions you're saying are worthy of eternal suffering amount to simply not believing in something that may or may not be real, and the punishment is going to a place that this "gracious" god himself has created specifically to torture those who don't worship him.

Like eating oysters or wearing garments of mixed materials. Now let's get out there and stone some sinners!

Why not use the first example?  Eating fruit that God told man not to eat.

What you fail to realize is this - that man turning his back on his Creator and going 180 degrees from Him means man is departing from righteousness and holiness and heading toward reprobation and depravity.  And walking away from life means man is heading towards death.

That was realized almost immediately as the first person born on earth killed his own brother.  And the motive?  His younger brother did what God wanted him to do while the murderer did his own thing.

Because man decided to go his own way his end is to die.  That's inevitable because of sin.  For all of us.  

How and when death occurs is such a big deal to you because you believe this life is all there is.

If man had not decided to turn his back on God and go his own way death would not be an issue.  Sickness and sorrow wouldn't be an issue.  People lying to one another, assaulting one another, killing one another wouldn't be an issue.

The sorry situation mankind finds himself in today is of his own making.

Choices have consequences.

But God offers us a way out of the mess we have made.

So far, you haven't taken God up on His offer.

Again, choices have consequences.  Some of those consequences are eternal.

I covered "the evil actions worthy of eternal suffering" my post above but I wanted to focus on the last part above - "the place... created specifically to torture those who don't worship him."

I printed a verse that perhaps you missed:

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

There is a place prepared - for the devil and his angels.  It wasn't prepared for men.  Angels were individually created by God, with no procreation in the process.  Their situation is different from men.  They also had direct access to God.  But because God gave even the angels free will - the ability to choose - some of them rebelled against God.  This place was prepared for those angels.

When God created the heavens and the earth for humans to dwell in He did so in order that God and mankind could dwell together and enjoy fellowship together.  Just as He gave angels free will - the ability to make choices - He gave man that ability as well.  As mentioned before, for a relationship based on actual love to exist parties involved in that relationship must do so freely - if it is forced or preprogrammed it isn't love at all.

As mentioned in the earlier post man chose to turn and walk away from God when the woman God gave him was deceived by Satan.  From what the Bible tells us Adam didn't want to simply rebelliously disobey God - he told his wife "don't touch it, much less eat it" but she did anyway.  Adam, because he loved his wife, then chose his wife over God.

(It is interesting that Jesus is called "the last Adam" in the Bible.  If the first Adam had behaved like Jesus he would have gone to God and said, "Eve ate the fruit.  She sinned against you.  Take my life instead of hers." But he didn't do that.  Because the last Adam did do just that - He died for sinners, was buried and rose again, sinners can be reconciled to God.)

God is letting things run its course, but He has told us what He is going to do in the end.  He will destroy the present creation and recreate heaven and earth.   Those of us who desire a relationship with God will believe Him and what He did to save us from what we did to ourselves.  We get to dwell in that place with God - as new creatures without a fallen nature and a desire to sin.

So - there is a lake of fire prepared for the devil and his angels...  and there is a new heavens and a new earth for those who turn to God in this life and want to be reconciled to Him....  and that's it.

There was no place prepared for the souls of men who chose to reject God's offer of reconciliation.

Here is how the Bible puts it when men who reject God's grace stand before Him in judgement:

Rev 20: 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

God isn't going to allow unrepentant sinners into the new heavens and new earth - if He did that it would just be a repeat of what we have now:

Rev 21: 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

You will be surprised to know that your name is in the Lamb's book of life.  Rodent's name is in the book, too.  Everyone's name is in the book of life.

But - if you die without turning to God and receiving His forgiveness your names will be blotted out of the book of life, along with all the other people who want nothing to do with God.

God is good.  God is gracious.  God wants you to have life and have it more abundantly.

But the choice is yours to make.

Ps 69:26 For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded. 27 Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness. 28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

(As an aside, this is yet more proof that Calvinism is totally unscriptural.)

But this isn't true.

Again, contrary to what the Calvinist in this thread refuses to see, unbelievers use the basic tenets of Calvinism - everything is supposedly preordained - to reject the God of the Bible, just as you are doing here.

"He made me incapable of accepting the only gift that would save me from Hell."

THAT is Calvinism and it's totally false.

But it is CONVENIENT for you to use to rationalize your situation.  You are saying the responsibility isn't yours but it's on God.

God put knowledge of Himself within you.  But He doesn't force you to retain that knowledge.  You can choose to let it go.

Rom 1: 28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

God dealt you faith.  But you can discard it.

Rom 12: 3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.


Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him


There is an issue, though - a big one.

James 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

When you approach spiritual matters from a position of pride instead of humility you have God actively resisting you.

The solution?

1 Pet 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble. 6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:

What could be more prideful than for a created being to question or deny the very existence of his Creator?