Let's try and stay focused for moment.

This thread is about NM and whether he was a good guy, or a bad guy.

My first post in this thread basically stated that 'one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.'

For the black people of S.A., he's a hero and I have no problem with that.

Was he flawed?  Sure.  Do innocent people die in any war?  Sure.  Does that fact invalidate the righteousness of that war?  No.

BTW, I'm a 52 year old white guy born in St. Louis, MO and living in Miami.

I don't know why you would assume that I am black.

Chris

It is amazing how the entire media (conservatives included) are eulogizing Mandela's "great" deeds.

Using government to try and dispossess 70-80% of the population.  How could they have known that would end badly?

Let's hope the Mandela-Tito comparisons end there.

So the USA deliberately targets school children in their wars? You think that's acceptable? I wouldn't want to be part of a free society that though the intentional killing of women and children, regardless of color was acceptable for their struggle, just like I wouldn't want to be a part of any religion which expected me to cut the heads off those who did not agree with me. You do know that the ANC, Nelson Mandela has admitted time and again to the planning and execution of the killing of children in school attacks, bus attacks and shopping center attacks?

Instead of targeting the military and the police, they deliberately targeted civilians, in other words they were terrorists.

Incase you don't know, collateral damage is the unintended killing of the civilian / non combatants in the war zone, Terrorism is the deliberate killing of the civilian / non combatants in the war zone.

My grandfather emigrated from Yugoslavia in the 20's. It was tense then and almost as bad as the 80-90's. IMO we should have left them alone and let them finish off the Muslims that had been murdering the Christians and Jews in that country for centuries

 

So, you living your life, your government is doing it's thing (Apartheid) and your kids' school but is taken out by the ANC with an RPG and the survivors are shot in the street, you okay with this?

I hope all the people who think that Black South Africans 'had a jackboot on their neck' remember to take their own johnboot off of the neck of poor La Raza.

Your entire argument falls apart to anyone with even the smallest knowledge of how SA came to be.

Hint...a small group of White people didn't move into the middle of millions of Black people and take over, no matter how much you wish it were true.  The very idea is so laughable that it really makes me question your ability to think critically.  Yes, some small thousands of Whites somehow wrested control of SA from millions of Black Africans.  At a time when most armies still fought hand to hand.  Brilliant.  With such powers the evil Dutch should have just took over London.

It was vacant land.  The millions of Blacks didn't come until Boers built an oasis out of a rocky, dangerous wasteland.

Ironically, La Raza has a more legitimate claim to parts of the Southwest/Texas than the ANC did to SA.  Don't forget to send in your dues.  La Raza!

PS.  The results of ending Apartheid conclusively prove why it was necessary in the first place.  

Apartheid bad does not make Mandela good.  All you worshippers would have had close encounter with a machete if his followers had gotten ahold of you.

But hey, continue with the stupidity.

Ive read this entire thread and i have yet to see someone actually break down in depth what Mandela specifically did that was considered terrible or bad, with sources (pages and pages of actual facts from a reputable source), or videos.  I'm not familiar with the history of South Africa over the last 30 years. But, because this is GD, everything is always generalized 5 word sentences and insults without actually elaborating in depth what he did.

So far, it's "he was a communist"

-I guess because he liked hanging out with Castro? So he's automatically a communist now (or then)?? What laws and programs did he enact that are or were defined as communism?? I want to know his actions and the after effects, not who his friends were.

"he was a terrorist"  "scum of the earth"  "worse than hitler"  "worse than goebbels" "heerrr deeerrr"

-What terrorist activities did he participate in? Did he orchestrate bombing runs and rape rampages on villages? Or was he actually fighting guerrillas instead, who were equally as bad? CAN YOU GUYS PROVIDE A SOURCE??? Im not gonna take your word for it, its GD.

"he hated white people"

-How? Give real examples? Because he was black?

Why was he awarded a retarded amount of peace prices and honors from all these countries?


Educate me. Not with a quick sentence, i want a fucking book of the atrocities he committed.

The "majority" was, in actuality, a number of minorities from rival tribes, augmented by economic refugees, united only by a common skin color.

So, to move the problem to the U.S. - how do you keep the Apaches from killing the Comanches from killing the Caddos form killing the Cree from killing the Cherokee from killing the Souix, etc, etc, etc - without the reservation system?

?????

You realize that Mandela was supporting a man who was a war with the USA, right? Remember the Libyan line of death? Remember the murdered Americans? Mandela supported Muammar Gaddafi, an evil dictator, over the USA just as he supported totalitarian regimes in Africa that murdered, raped, looted its citizens. Moral outrage goes both ways.

I wouldn't be a part of SA at any time, under any circumstances.

If I was, and someone bombed my shit because I was part of the problem, I suppose that's what happens.

Chicago/Detroit makes the news nightly now.  Maybe you should go put a burning tire around the neck of some random White people who live there.  Or are you going to let the government thugs win?

Lord help us, he's appealed to our sense of respect for the 'nightly news.'  

One wonders if in 20 years you'll refer to the nightly 'assault weapon' stories currently being pushed.

Long sleeve or short sleeve?

 

Didn't know the Nazis used coal scuttles with the strinpanzer mounting points.


Learn, young padawan. Learn.

World War 1: Simple Version

As has already been REPEATEDLY suggested,  Google ANC atrocities.  WAY too many to list here from  numerous different sources.  Don't be a 13'er.

Why would we, the Amish are excellent, civilized people.

And yes, the land was mostly vacant.

History baby.

Here you go:
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/nelson_mandela_terrorist

Hermann left an annotation (24 July 2009)


Boeringranite

Mandela wrote a book "How to be a good communist" He is a great admireror of Stalin, a man responsible for the killing of millions of his own people.

Here is a few writings I found on other Web sites.

In 1961, Mandela was the founder of Umkhonto we Siswe (”Spear of the People”), ANC’s terrorist arm, and never during all the time he was in prison did he condemn that organization’s acts of indiscriminate terrorism against civilians.

Mandela and the ANC learned from Yasir Arafat how to ‘discipline’ collaborators and make sure people toed the party line.

These included ‘necklacing’(putting a gasoline soaked tire over the victims head to bind their arms and setting it on fire, burning families in their homes in Soweto, operating what amounted to a protection racket among black South African businessmen and torturing dissidents at ANC gulags in Angola, something even Mandela has admitted occurred,although he’s never apologized or regretted it.

Mandela was also responsible for signing off on the Church Street bombing in Pretoria 1983,which killed 19 and wounded more than 200, mostly families in a busy shopping street at rush hour. The commander of that operation was Abu Bakr Ismail, a PLO terrorist.

“The problem is that Mandela has achieved next to nothing in his relatively short political career which saw South Africa
rapidly decline to the status of the world's most violent and crime-ridden country. To add to the confusion, is the
fact that his greatest friends are communists and Muslim dictators like Fidel Castro, Moammar Qaddafi, Yasser Arafat
and Saddam Hussein. His ex-wife Winnie Mandela, whom he quickly jettisoned when it became clear she was a
considerable embarrassment to his political career, is a self-confessed advocate of terrorism and violence, and has even
committed murder. Nelson and Winnie Mandela are an African version of Bill and Hillary Clinton. In his public statements
and speeches Mandela is always critical of the democratic countries of the west, but has nothing but praise for the
remaining communist and Muslim dictatorships of the world. He condemns mistakes and controversial policies of the west,
but refuses to publicly condemn the genocides and brutal repression of current or former communist countries; he is
supposedly a “champion of freedom and democracy”, the “hero of oppressed people everywhere” but considers
dictatorships like Cuba and Libya shining beacons of freedom and justice...”"

Dude, I'm not defending Apartheid or the Nazis, I'm telling you it was wrong, but it what they had at the time, it worked and it was not as extreme as you westerners have been led to believe, was it bad, damn write it was, should it have never happened, without a doubt, I'm not defending it, all I'm trying to do is stop everyone here and in the whole World it seems sucking Mandala's dick, he was a bad, bad  man and not just to whites or the white government, he done more bad things to more blacks than he ever did to the white government or the white people, he and his ANC were ruthless, try find some of the stories from black who were forced into ANC camps and what would be done to them if they wanted nothing to do with the ANC or if they were Zulus. But for some reason the World hails this guy as a hero, he hung out with and praised some pretty bad dudes as well, like Gaddafi and a whole host of other known tyrants, let the company he kept speak of what man he was and stop trying to suck him off, he was a bad man.

I agree with you.  Lots of parroting going around with little substance.

Here's a Wiki on the Umkhonto we Sizwe, which is the military/militant wing of the ANC, which was co-founded by Nelson Mandela.

MK military wing of the ANC

Here's an excerpt of N.M.'s I AM PREPARED TO DIE speech in 1961 about using violence:

""At the beginning of June 1961, after a long and anxious assessment of the South African situation, I, and some colleagues, came to the conclusion that as violence in this country was inevitable, it would be unrealistic and wrong for African leaders to continue preaching peace and non-violence at a time when the government met our peaceful demands with force.

This conclusion was not easily arrived at. It was only when all else had failed, when all channels of peaceful protest had been barred to us, that the decision was made to embark on violent forms of political struggle, and to form Umkhonto we Sizwe. We did so not because we desired such a course, but solely because the government had left us with no other choice. In the Manifesto of Umkhonto published on 16 December 1961, which is exhibit AD, we said:

'The time comes in the life of any nation when there remain only two choices – submit or fight. That time has now come to South Africa. We shall not submit and we have no choice but to hit back by all means in our power in defence of our people, our future, and our freedom.'

Firstly, we believed that as a result of Government policy, violence by the African people had become inevitable, and that unless responsible leadership was given to canalise and control the feelings of our people, there would be outbreaks of terrorism which would produce an intensity of bitterness and hostility between the various races of this country which is not produced even by war. Secondly, we felt that without violence there would be no way open to the African people to succeed in their struggle against the principle of white supremacy. All lawful modes of expressing opposition to this principle had been closed by legislation, and we were placed in a position in which we had either to accept a permanent state of inferiority, or take over the Government. We chose to defy the law. We first broke the law in a way which avoided any recourse to violence; when this form was legislated against, and then the Government resorted to a show of force to crush opposition to its policies, only then did we decide to answer with violence."

Sounds pretty reasonable to me?

Here are some of the 'attacks' he carried out:

"In June 1961, Mandela sent a letter to South African newspapers warning the government that a campaign of sabotage would be launched unless the government agreed to call for a national constitutional convention.[5] Beginning on 16 December 1961, the campaign by Umkhonto we Sizwe with Mandela as its leader, launched bomb attacks on government targets and planned for possible guerrilla warfare.[6] The first target of the campaign was an electricity sub-station. Umkhonto we Sizwe undertook other acts of sabotage in the next eighteen months. The government alleged more acts of sabotage had been carried out and at the Rivonia trial the accused would be charged with 193 acts of sabotage in total.[7] The sabotage included attacks on government posts, machines, power facilities and crop burning.[5]"

How many US soldiers have been charged with murder during both the Irak and Afghanistan wars?

Shit happens in wars and innocents die, but that doesn't negate the moral validity of the campaign.

Chris

I never said the SA cops were angels maybe you are thinking of someone else?

My point is that folks should not be praising a man that was communist and supported enemies of the United States. He married women who murdered innocent people and he supported evil African dictators that subjugated their citizens till this day.

You may despise the 1980's SA government but much worse evil occurs in Africa today by its current leaders affecting large portions of inhabitants and it gets no attention.

Merely pointing at SA of the 1980's while willfully ignoring the other countries since the 1980's to 2013 that continue to commit crimes against humanity is like giving a guy a speeding ticket while ignoring a mass murder.

Communist, terrorist, complete enemy of freedom.

Good fucking riddance.  It makes me sick that the MSM has convinced people he is a hero.  

Is that what the 'nightly news' told you?

Don't make a badge of your ignorance...the Dutch are not stupid people, instead of starting a war of thousands versus 'millions' they would have simply found another piece of unoccupied land.  It took us hundreds of years here to subdue Indians, with multiple nations involved.  How did the Dutch do it so quickly?  What is this period called?  Since they were 'forced off' of their land, when were they allowed back?  During Apartheid?  lol indeed.

SA is filled with dangerous animals and inhospitable terrain.  With the exception of a few migratory tries who crossed it, it was empty.

Especially this. Contrary to popular belief Apartheid was about all about freedom.

You ever try that in court?

The prosecutor is a racist, your honor! (glares with spittle on chin)

Is that experience speaking or were you taught that tactic in law school?

Ironic that someone who is using the 'nightly news of the 80s' as a source is speaking of fables.

Here's a quote for you to ponder, counsel.  "You don't have to destroy your enemy, just his willingness to engage."

He is actually quoted as saying that people shouldn't be able to own land.  

Fucking rot in hell, commie.

You seem familiar, Mr. Five Post November 13.  What was your previous screen name?

He is site staff man.  Be careful.

Reading how this thread has gone leaves me

Nope.

The facts are pretty well laid out and known.

The whole "slaves were treated like valuable possessions and rarely mistreated" line was post re-constructionism bullshit to try to glorify and romanticize the antebellum South.

FPNI

Coming from a Brit. This, folks, is IRONY.

You have said what I have been trying to say, you just articulated it better, that is what my black friends and their parents would tell us, my mom worked with a black lady and they got along just fine, my mom came home one day couldn't believe what her black friend had told her, that they preferred the apartheid government more because now we were all even more fucked than before. During apartheid they all had electricity and running water and regardless what you all read about and saw on the news, they had jobs and healthcare, the white government who hated them so much spent millions building schools for them and hospitals , now they have nothing, the schools have been burnt down, the hospitals are abandons in most places and the corruption has led most place to be lucky to have electricity for more then 6 months at a time.

Before we left, we were told by black that they felt worse off since Mandela took over and he few Zulus I spoke too were downright terrified. The ANC was to the Zulu what Hussein was to the Kurds.

FrankDrebin'sBigGayLover

Miss ya, sweetie.

Once again, the voice of Progressive Reason.
Thread's done.

Its almost as though for his entire life the people who could own land were oppressing him.

That tends to have an effect on a person.

You can see the same thing in this country.

Isn't it fun when instead of actually debating facts people try to shut down the debate?

You're a racist!

You're a retread!

You enlarged my diameter and I'm still mad!

They have to...because they always lose when dealing with actual facts.

Good bye.

Hahaha, what?

Who's oppressing who here? Who's being deprived of land here?

Please...by all means.

You are comparing apples and kumquats. Revolution against an oppressive government =\= murdering civilians, women and children, torture of the same, and rape. Mandela and terrorist organization killed more blacks than the government he supposedly was protecting him did. Your "point" is idiotic.